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Author Topic: Baptism is Literal Rebirth into the Waters of Life - New Person, not Soul  (Read 1327 times)

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Offline AlephBet

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1 Corinthians 15:12
[ We Will Come Back to Life ] If we have told you that Christ has been brought back to life, how can some of you say that coming back from the dead is impossible?


You must be born again. There are five baptisms listed in scripture.  Three are stated and two implied. Water is the key to the beast in the flood.  Dew and Rain are symbolism for what we are, distilled back to the ocean from which we come.  Below, I will outline key verses revealing this easily understood mystery.  I choose many of the best verses, but there are thousands more. 

Baptism is Involution (immersion) and Evolution (rising to new life).  We cannot rise unless we first sink.  We are in the water NOW.  Baptism has a meaning beyond the pool in the church.  I have made this thread long.  Feel free to select one passage to discuss if it makes your life easier. 

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Here, we have a key piece of symbolism used in many parallel passages.  Dew represents drops of water that hit the ground in the morning, the distill and purify back when the sun rises.  The dew of the morning is a key piece of this puzzle.  To understand why this is significant, we need to know why the Lord was called the Lord of Hosts.  The bio-mechanical body we occupy is a host for the Spirit that possesses it.  The Lord of Hosts is the coordinator and guardian of the process.  He is the High Priest residing over the true tabernacle and the copy. 

Hebrews 9

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

John 3

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

When do you enter the Kingdom of God? When saved. Where are you until you are saved? Occupying a unique person, judged at each death you experience.  Non of us have been saved yet.  We receive salvation from the water when Christ returns for the Bride. 

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Only three places to wait.  The person lives once, and is then judged.  Until salvation can save us form this process, we return.  The Spirit/Soul is eternal.  Where do we wait?  Place of Rest, Water, Pit. 

Isaiah 26 again:

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Where were you before today?  It all depends on the state of your Spirit/Soul.  We know that many sinners were imprisoned in the pit. 

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience (Satan / Accuser) toward God.

After being baptized in the Spirit (firstfruits of this process), Jesus made proclamation to the imprisoned Spirits who died in the flood. What were they told?  For one, that a process exists to free them from their bonds.  He then outlines the process.  Baptism is the water that NOW saves you also.  The Ark saved 8.  What about the people that perished in the flood?  The water saves them.  This is a parallel passage outlining the nature of waters above and waters below.  Above water, we have the Ark.  Below, the perishing world of sin.  Where does sin happen?  How do we rise above to new life?  Where are the men Jesus fishes for?  We rise again in resurrection back into the waters of the flood. Symbolism for the entire story of Noah is the waters that NOW SAVE US ALL.

You MUST be born again. You HAVE been born again if you are here now. That is, unless you deny that Jesus was the Firstfruits of the Spirit baptism. Where are you now? Are you risen to heaven or here waiting?  We ALL wait.  Salvation will not occur until Christ returns. 

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The body is the temple where sacrifice is made. Again from 1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Have you been put to death in the body? Not if you are still in it. Have you risen to God in the Spirit?  None of us have.  We patiently wait.  You have been here many times before, prepared by the Father.

John 6

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

When we come to Christ unprepared, does he accept us?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. 24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

He does not need your testimony. He already knows. You are here to be prepared. For what? For the fisherman to come fish you out of the water. It's the point of being a fisher of men. John 3, right after John 2 above, tells us how to be faithful (entrusted) to God. Baptism and rebirth.

Let's ask the question again.  Where do we wait?

Hebrews 11 (BY FAITH)

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

What about Job's children.

Job 2

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.

What was Satan saying?  Snakes shed skin, but are the same snake.  Did Job receive his sons and daughter's again in the end of the book?  Yes. 

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
    and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet[e] in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
    with my own eyes—I, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me!

---What eyes will see Christ return to bring salvation?  Where were the promises of resurrection for?  What does it mean to rise to NEW life?  Job knew well what he was saying.  Where will he see his Redeemer again?

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;

    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

The imagery here is important.  Not only will the ones who pierced him be alive again to see him return, but Jesus comes with the clouds.  Clouds are related to the Dew and Rain of the first verses mentioned.  Why?

Allow me to fill in what you cannot see:

1 Corinthians 10

10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud [Veil of the material world] and that they all passed through the sea [Nations]. 2 They were all baptized into Moses [Shepherd - Redeemer] in the cloud [Veil] and in the sea [nations]. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food [bread of life / manna] 4 and drank the same spiritual drink [cup of the mother's womb / blood of Christ]; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness [over time in the material world].

Let's go back now to who the beasts are in the flood.  Did the flood occur before Christ died or after?  Before.  It is a process that has been happening.  As the Ark is above the waters, so the waters wash away the beasts below.  8 people were in the Ark.  What else was in the Ark above?

We have yet another way to see this.  Elijah was reborn into John the Baptist.  To know why, we need to read 1 Kings 17.

Eliham turns off the Dew and Rain:

17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[a] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

He then travels to Zarephath (meaning refinery) and meets the widow woman with a dead son in her bosom.  He takes the Son UP to his chamber of rest, then back down to the mother.  Return to Isaiah 26.  Is this what happens in the parallel passage as well?

Isaiah 26

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Where was Lazarus sleeping when Jesus said he would go 'there' to get him?  John 11:11 - After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

We next find John the Baptist telling the leaders to bear fruit to avoid the coming wrath.  Parallel to this, 1 Kings 18 outlines a foreshadowing of that wrath on the high priests when fire consumes the water soaked wood. 

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

As I stated from the beginning, there are five baptisms.  Two are implied and three stated above. 

Earth - Clay / Dust.  Clay is carbon.  The mark of mankind is 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons.  The mark of the beast is what pulls them through the water to the cross.

Air - Nitrogen 777 and Oxygen 888.

Water - Baptism / Flood / Beasts in the temple sacrifice / water cleansing the altar

Fire - Trials - Burning the Beast

Spirit - The Goal

Now, the best part.  The word Truth is Aleph Mem Tav.  Strong Water Mark



What do you see from the pictographs of proto-Semitic letters?  A beast pulling through the water to the cross. 

In Hebrew, the word chet is sin.  It's literal meaning is missing the mark.  What is the mark of the beast?  Sin / Ego / Selfishness.  What is the mark of the water on the beast?

Salvation by the cross. 

I have much more.  I'll wait for someone to challenge this.

Emet means TRUTH.  Taking away the Aleph makes MET, or the Hebrew word Death. 

Psalm 110 (Picture of the Priest over the Battle) - Who occupies the host bodies on the battlefield?  Who directs the battle?

The Lord says to my lord:[a]

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”


2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
    “Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
    on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
    your young men will come to you
    like dew from the morning’s womb.


4 The Lord has sworn
    and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand;
    he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
    and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,

    and so he will lift his head high.

Where do you recognize this imagery?  1 Corinthians 15, as well as many other places. Who was he speaking to?  Was the High Priest baptized into new life?

Zechariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

3 Joshua was wearing filthy clothes and was standing in front of the Messenger. 4 The Messenger said to those who were standing in front of him, “Remove Joshua’s filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken your sin away from you, and I will dress you in fine clothing.”

5 So I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” They put a clean turban on his head and dressed him while the Messenger of Yahweh was standing there.

6 The Messenger of Yahweh advised Joshua, 7 “This is what Yahweh Tsebaoth says: If you live according to my ways and follow my requirements, you will govern my temple and watch over my courtyards. Then I will give you free access to walk among those standing here.

8 “Listen, Chief Priest Joshua and your friends sitting with you. These men are a sign of things to come: I’m going to bring my servant, the Branch.

9 “Look at the stone I have set in front of Joshua. That one stone has seven eyes.[a] I am engraving an inscription on it,” declares Yahweh Tsebaoth. “I will remove this land’s sin in a single day. 10 On that day,” declares Yahweh Tsebaoth, “each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree.”

Who occupied the Host of Joshua the High Priest?  The Lord Himself.  What was the foundation for the temple and when was it built?  Between this decree and the time Satan was again silenced by Yeshua / Joshua in the desert (no water or food). 

Symbolism tells you the story.  You MUST be born again and again and again.  Unless you are baptized, you cannot receive the Spirit of God as a refined mind silencing Satan. 

What Robe (body) and Crown (mind) were give to Joshua above?  What Robe do you receive in Revelation 6?

Revelation 6

10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Holy and true Master, how long before you judge and take revenge on those living on earth who shed our blood?” 11 Each of the souls was given a white robe. They were told to rest a little longer until all their coworkers, the other Christians, would be killed as they had been killed.

From here, use simple logic.  Were the Saints in alive in the first century?  Yes.  Were they alive during the tribulation?  Yes.  When did they receive the Robe?  When did the Angel cry out, HOW LONG?

I think you now realize.  We are not saved until Christ returns.  Has he returned?  Where are we in the mean time?

Christ is the Aleph Tav.  Have we reached the End yet?



I have shown you Truth.

What sets you free?  What have I shown you here?  How to see God's patience that is infinite.  He goes after the ones in the water.  The Ark saved 8, but the water saved them all.  Was Yahweh remade as a Kinsman by example to us?  Why?  God makes ALL things new.  ALL things are in and through the Son.  Who are the 8 that were saved?

How many Angels over the seven churches?  Eight!  Jesus is the head. 






 

« Last Edit: Mon Mar 09, 2015 - 06:15:36 by AlephBet »

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Offline Beta

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Baptism is the ' washing away of sins, Acts 22v16,
it is not a literal rebirth which happens at the 'end of life when 'resurrected from the dead in power and glory, Rom 1v4 , as was Jesus.

That is the only 'literal rebirth the Bible teaches....
there is no mention of a literal rebirth into the waters of life.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 05:09:05 by Beta »

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Offline AlephBet

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Baptism is the ' washing away of sins, Acts 22v16,
it is not a literal rebirth which happens at the 'end of life when 'resurrected from the dead in power and glory, Rom 1v4 , as was Jesus.

That is the only 'literal rebirth the Bible teaches....
there is no mention of a literal rebirth into the waters of life.

It does say this, in MANY places:

Job 33

23 Yet if there is an angel at their side,
    a messenger, one out of a thousand,
    sent to tell them how to be upright,
24 and he is gracious to that person and says to God,
    ‘Spare them from going down to the pit;
    I have found a ransom for them—

25 let their flesh be renewed like a child’s;
    let them be restored as in the days of their youth’—

26 then that person can pray to God and find favor with him,
    they will see God’s face and shout for joy;
    he will restore them to full well-being.
27 And they will go to others and say,
    ‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right,
    but I did not get what I deserved.
28 God has delivered me from going down to the pit,
    and I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’


29 “God does all these things to a person—
    twice, even three times—

30 to turn them back from the pit,
    that the light of life may shine on them.

Hebrews 11

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 06:29:28 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

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Baptism is the ' washing away of sins, Acts 22v16,
it is not a literal rebirth which happens at the 'end of life when 'resurrected from the dead in power and glory, Rom 1v4 , as was Jesus.

That is the only 'literal rebirth the Bible teaches....
there is no mention of a literal rebirth into the waters of life.

"No one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or wife or children or land for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age - homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields ... and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30)

When is the age to come?

Deuteronomy 6

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

20 In the future, when your son asks you, “What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?” 21 tell him: “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

These promises were to them for future outcomes.  What is resurrection?  Where are the heavens?  In all cases, the heavens are out there beyond the sky of earth.  There will be a new Earth and Heaven.  We know this.  You will occupy a new body.  We know this.  There is yet 1000 years on this earth.  We know this. 

You MUST be born again.

"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again...What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:4-9)

Generations come and go.  Promises to one generation are promises to the next when they come again.  The Bible, in many places, tells one generation that they will be blessed in the next.  Where are the generations of people that lived with no knowledge of Christ, even in recent history?

Your theology says hell.

1 Peter 3 tells you that hell is empty.  There IS a pit where beasts sink.  Christ came to that pit and brought people back into the waters of life and light.  This IS the story of the Bible and Baptism.  Baptism is not simply symbolic.  It's the process of the Lord and Spirit animating the host with life.  What is a host?  What does a Spirit do to a host?  Possess.  You possess the body.  You are NOT the body.



« Last Edit: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 06:33:03 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

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Baptism is the ' washing away of sins, Acts 22v16,
it is not a literal rebirth which happens at the 'end of life when 'resurrected from the dead in power and glory, Rom 1v4 , as was Jesus.

That is the only 'literal rebirth the Bible teaches....
there is no mention of a literal rebirth into the waters of life.

Psalm 71:20

Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

Up from where?  The Pit. 1 Peter 3 shows us the answer in plain spoken language.  The water NOW saves you also. 




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Comparing the righteous who WILL see life again, here is a picture of the wicked that will not see life again.

Keep in mind, from the original post, what the Morning Dew represents.  It never fails to fall.

Psalm 49

14 They are like sheep and are destined to die;
    death will be their shepherd
    (but the upright will prevail over them in the morning).
Their forms will decay in the grave,
    far from their princely mansions.
15 But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead;
    he will surely take me to himself.
16 Do not be overawed when others grow rich,
    when the splendor of their houses increases;
17 for they will take nothing with them when they die,
    their splendor will not descend with them.
18 Though while they live they count themselves blessed—
    and people praise you when you prosper—
19 they will join those who have gone before them,
    who will never again see the light of life.

20 People who have wealth but lack understanding
    are like the beasts that perish.


What happens to those who ARE the people of God?

Ezekiel 37:12
Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:13
Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.

Parallel to this, we have Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

The Bible will defy anyone who clings to an incorrect theology.  Once you know the verses, you know the thread of truth they reveal.  We are LITERALLY born gain. 

Psalm 30:3
You, Lord, brought me up from the realm of the dead; you spared me from going down to the pit.


Buster D Body Crab

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I see the link in your signature to the Aleph Bet Forum.

Where did you copy this article that is your OP? Please share the link with us.
Thanks.



You must be born again. There are five baptisms listed in scripture.  Three are stated and two implied. Water is the key to the beast in the flood.  Dew and Rain are symbolism for what we are, distilled back to the ocean from which we come.  Below, I will outline key verses revealing this easily understood mystery.  I choose many of the best verses, but there are thousands more. 

Baptism is Involution (immersion) and Evolution (rising to new life).  We cannot rise unless we first sink.  We are in the water NOW.  Baptism has a meaning beyond the pool in the church.  I have made this thread long.  Feel free to select one passage to discuss if it makes your life easier. 

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Here, we have a key piece of symbolism used in many parallel passages.  Dew represents drops of water that hit the ground in the morning, the distill and purify back when the sun rises.  The dew of the morning is a key piece of this puzzle.  To understand why this is significant, we need to know why the Lord was called the Lord of Hosts.  The bio-mechanical body we occupy is a host for the Spirit that possesses it.  The Lord of Hosts is the coordinator and guardian of the process.  He is the High Priest residing over the true tabernacle and the copy. 

Hebrews 9

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

John 3

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

When do you enter the Kingdom of God? When saved. Where are you until you are saved? Occupying a unique person, judged at each death you experience.  Non of us have been saved yet.  We receive salvation from the water when Christ returns for the Bride. 

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Only three places to wait.  The person lives once, and is then judged.  Until salvation can save us form this process, we return.  The Spirit/Soul is eternal.  Where do we wait?  Place of Rest, Water, Pit. 

Isaiah 26 again:

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Where were you before today?  It all depends on the state of your Spirit/Soul.  We know that many sinners were imprisoned in the pit. 

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience (Satan / Accuser) toward God.

After being baptized in the Spirit (firstfruits of this process), Jesus made proclamation to the imprisoned Spirits who died in the flood. What were they told?  For one, that a process exists to free them from their bonds.  He then outlines the process.  Baptism is the water that NOW saves you also.  The Ark saved 8.  What about the people that perished in the flood?  The water saves them.  This is a parallel passage outlining the nature of waters above and waters below.  Above water, we have the Ark.  Below, the perishing world of sin.  Where does sin happen?  How do we rise above to new life?  Where are the men Jesus fishes for?  We rise again in resurrection back into the waters of the flood. Symbolism for the entire story of Noah is the waters that NOW SAVE US ALL.

You MUST be born again. You HAVE been born again if you are here now. That is, unless you deny that Jesus was the Firstfruits of the Spirit baptism. Where are you now? Are you risen to heaven or here waiting?  We ALL wait.  Salvation will not occur until Christ returns. 

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The body is the temple where sacrifice is made. Again from 1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Have you been put to death in the body? Not if you are still in it. Have you risen to God in the Spirit?  None of us have.  We patiently wait.  You have been here many times before, prepared by the Father.

John 6

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

When we come to Christ unprepared, does he accept us?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. 24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

He does not need your testimony. He already knows. You are here to be prepared. For what? For the fisherman to come fish you out of the water. It's the point of being a fisher of men. John 3, right after John 2 above, tells us how to be faithful (entrusted) to God. Baptism and rebirth.

Let's ask the question again.  Where do we wait?

Hebrews 11 (BY FAITH)

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

What about Job's children.

Job 2

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.

What was Satan saying?  Snakes shed skin, but are the same snake.  Did Job receive his sons and daughter's again in the end of the book?  Yes. 

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
    and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet[e] in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
    with my own eyes—I, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me!

---What eyes will see Christ return to bring salvation?  Where were the promises of resurrection for?  What does it mean to rise to NEW life?  Job knew well what he was saying.  Where will he see his Redeemer again?

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;

    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

The imagery here is important.  Not only will the ones who pierced him be alive again to see him return, but Jesus comes with the clouds.  Clouds are related to the Dew and Rain of the first verses mentioned.  Why?

Allow me to fill in what you cannot see:

1 Corinthians 10

10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud [Veil of the material world] and that they all passed through the sea [Nations]. 2 They were all baptized into Moses [Shepherd - Redeemer] in the cloud [Veil] and in the sea [nations]. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food [bread of life / manna] 4 and drank the same spiritual drink [cup of the mother's womb / blood of Christ]; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness [over time in the material world].

Let's go back now to who the beasts are in the flood.  Did the flood occur before Christ died or after?  Before.  It is a process that has been happening.  As the Ark is above the waters, so the waters wash away the beasts below.  8 people were in the Ark.  What else was in the Ark above?

We have yet another way to see this.  Elijah was reborn into John the Baptist.  To know why, we need to read 1 Kings 17.

Eliham turns off the Dew and Rain:

17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[a] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

He then travels to Zarephath (meaning refinery) and meets the widow woman with a dead son in her bosom.  He takes the Son UP to his chamber of rest, then back down to the mother.  Return to Isaiah 26.  Is this what happens in the parallel passage as well?

Isaiah 26

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Where was Lazarus sleeping when Jesus said he would go 'there' to get him?  John 11:11 - After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

We next find John the Baptist telling the leaders to bear fruit to avoid the coming wrath.  Parallel to this, 1 Kings 18 outlines a foreshadowing of that wrath on the high priests when fire consumes the water soaked wood. 

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

As I stated from the beginning, there are five baptisms.  Two are implied and three stated above. 

Earth - Clay / Dust.  Clay is carbon.  The mark of mankind is 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons.  The mark of the beast is what pulls them through the water to the cross.

Air - Nitrogen 777 and Oxygen 888.

Water - Baptism / Flood / Beasts in the temple sacrifice / water cleansing the altar

Fire - Trials - Burning the Beast

Spirit - The Goal

Now, the best part.  The word Truth is Aleph Mem Tav.  Strong Water Mark



What do you see from the pictographs of proto-Semitic letters?  A beast pulling through the water to the cross. 

In Hebrew, the word chet is sin.  It's literal meaning is missing the mark.  What is the mark of the beast?  Sin / Ego / Selfishness.  What is the mark of the water on the beast?

Salvation by the cross. 

I have much more.  I'll wait for someone to challenge this.

Emet means TRUTH.  Taking away the Aleph makes MET, or the Hebrew word Death. 

Psalm 110 (Picture of the Priest over the Battle) - Who occupies the host bodies on the battlefield?  Who directs the battle?

The Lord says to my lord:[a]

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”


2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
    “Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
    on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
    your young men will come to you
    like dew from the morning’s womb.


4 The Lord has sworn
    and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand;
    he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
    and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,

    and so he will lift his head high.

Where do you recognize this imagery?  1 Corinthians 15, as well as many other places. Who was he speaking to?  Was the High Priest baptized into new life?

Zechariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

3 Joshua was wearing filthy clothes and was standing in front of the Messenger. 4 The Messenger said to those who were standing in front of him, “Remove Joshua’s filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken your sin away from you, and I will dress you in fine clothing.”

5 So I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” They put a clean turban on his head and dressed him while the Messenger of Yahweh was standing there.

6 The Messenger of Yahweh advised Joshua, 7 “This is what Yahweh Tsebaoth says: If you live according to my ways and follow my requirements, you will govern my temple and watch over my courtyards. Then I will give you free access to walk among those standing here.

8 “Listen, Chief Priest Joshua and your friends sitting with you. These men are a sign of things to come: I’m going to bring my servant, the Branch.

9 “Look at the stone I have set in front of Joshua. That one stone has seven eyes.[a] I am engraving an inscription on it,” declares Yahweh Tsebaoth. “I will remove this land’s sin in a single day. 10 On that day,” declares Yahweh Tsebaoth, “each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree.”

Who occupied the Host of Joshua the High Priest?  The Lord Himself.  What was the foundation for the temple and when was it built?  Between this decree and the time Satan was again silenced by Yeshua / Joshua in the desert (no water or food). 

Symbolism tells you the story.  You MUST be born again and again and again.  Unless you are baptized, you cannot receive the Spirit of God as a refined mind silencing Satan. 

What Robe (body) and Crown (mind) were give to Joshua above?  What Robe do you receive in Revelation 6?

Revelation 6

10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Holy and true Master, how long before you judge and take revenge on those living on earth who shed our blood?” 11 Each of the souls was given a white robe. They were told to rest a little longer until all their coworkers, the other Christians, would be killed as they had been killed.

From here, use simple logic.  Were the Saints in alive in the first century?  Yes.  Were they alive during the tribulation?  Yes.  When did they receive the Robe?  When did the Angel cry out, HOW LONG?

I think you now realize.  We are not saved until Christ returns.  Has he returned?  Where are we in the mean time?

Christ is the Aleph Tav.  Have we reached the End yet?



I have shown you Truth.

What sets you free?  What have I shown you here?  How to see God's patience that is infinite.  He goes after the ones in the water.  The Ark saved 8, but the water saved them all.  Was Yahweh remade as a Kinsman by example to us?  Why?  God makes ALL things new.  ALL things are in and through the Son.  Who are the 8 that were saved?

How many Angels over the seven churches?  Eight!  Jesus is the head. 






 

Offline Beta

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I can agree that 'Baptism is the beginning of rebirth, beginning with the 'washing away of sin.....
but that is a way off from 'literal rebirth. Next comes a 'change of clean Raiment, dressed in white, 'learning Obedience and 'practicing Righteousness.
That is the simple teaching of the Bible, not wandering in the wilderness again, confusing people with endless comparisons.

Man returns from the GRAVE - not from hell. Erroniously both these terms are sometimes expressed as PIT.

Offline Beta

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And actually, we come to Christ unprepared - as we are - and He accepts us BUT we do NOT STAY AS WE ARE. It is HIS job to prepare us for the Kingdom of GOD , because GOD will not accept us in our present sinful state ! Jesus came to save His people from their sins , beginning with Repentance and Baptism !
Being ' born into GOD's KGD comes later when we have been 'prepared for it !

Offline AlephBet

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My words.  Who is the author of each article on that website with no exceptions?  This one was adapted form the other.  Are you accusing me of something?  I could also link you to my 265 page book on the subject from Amazon if you like. 

I see the link in your signature to the Aleph Bet Forum.

Where did you copy this article that is your OP? Please share the link with us.
Thanks.



You must be born again. There are five baptisms listed in scripture.  Three are stated and two implied. Water is the key to the beast in the flood.  Dew and Rain are symbolism for what we are, distilled back to the ocean from which we come.  Below, I will outline key verses revealing this easily understood mystery.  I choose many of the best verses, but there are thousands more. 

Baptism is Involution (immersion) and Evolution (rising to new life).  We cannot rise unless we first sink.  We are in the water NOW.  Baptism has a meaning beyond the pool in the church.  I have made this thread long.  Feel free to select one passage to discuss if it makes your life easier. 

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Here, we have a key piece of symbolism used in many parallel passages.  Dew represents drops of water that hit the ground in the morning, the distill and purify back when the sun rises.  The dew of the morning is a key piece of this puzzle.  To understand why this is significant, we need to know why the Lord was called the Lord of Hosts.  The bio-mechanical body we occupy is a host for the Spirit that possesses it.  The Lord of Hosts is the coordinator and guardian of the process.  He is the High Priest residing over the true tabernacle and the copy. 

Hebrews 9

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

John 3

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

When do you enter the Kingdom of God? When saved. Where are you until you are saved? Occupying a unique person, judged at each death you experience.  Non of us have been saved yet.  We receive salvation from the water when Christ returns for the Bride. 

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Only three places to wait.  The person lives once, and is then judged.  Until salvation can save us form this process, we return.  The Spirit/Soul is eternal.  Where do we wait?  Place of Rest, Water, Pit. 

Isaiah 26 again:

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Where were you before today?  It all depends on the state of your Spirit/Soul.  We know that many sinners were imprisoned in the pit. 

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience (Satan / Accuser) toward God.

After being baptized in the Spirit (firstfruits of this process), Jesus made proclamation to the imprisoned Spirits who died in the flood. What were they told?  For one, that a process exists to free them from their bonds.  He then outlines the process.  Baptism is the water that NOW saves you also.  The Ark saved 8.  What about the people that perished in the flood?  The water saves them.  This is a parallel passage outlining the nature of waters above and waters below.  Above water, we have the Ark.  Below, the perishing world of sin.  Where does sin happen?  How do we rise above to new life?  Where are the men Jesus fishes for?  We rise again in resurrection back into the waters of the flood. Symbolism for the entire story of Noah is the waters that NOW SAVE US ALL.

You MUST be born again. You HAVE been born again if you are here now. That is, unless you deny that Jesus was the Firstfruits of the Spirit baptism. Where are you now? Are you risen to heaven or here waiting?  We ALL wait.  Salvation will not occur until Christ returns. 

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The body is the temple where sacrifice is made. Again from 1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Have you been put to death in the body? Not if you are still in it. Have you risen to God in the Spirit?  None of us have.  We patiently wait.  You have been here many times before, prepared by the Father.

John 6

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

When we come to Christ unprepared, does he accept us?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. 24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

He does not need your testimony. He already knows. You are here to be prepared. For what? For the fisherman to come fish you out of the water. It's the point of being a fisher of men. John 3, right after John 2 above, tells us how to be faithful (entrusted) to God. Baptism and rebirth.

Let's ask the question again.  Where do we wait?

Hebrews 11 (BY FAITH)

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

What about Job's children.

Job 2

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.

What was Satan saying?  Snakes shed skin, but are the same snake.  Did Job receive his sons and daughter's again in the end of the book?  Yes. 

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
    and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet[e] in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
    with my own eyes—I, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me!

---What eyes will see Christ return to bring salvation?  Where were the promises of resurrection for?  What does it mean to rise to NEW life?  Job knew well what he was saying.  Where will he see his Redeemer again?

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;

    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

The imagery here is important.  Not only will the ones who pierced him be alive again to see him return, but Jesus comes with the clouds.  Clouds are related to the Dew and Rain of the first verses mentioned.  Why?

Allow me to fill in what you cannot see:

1 Corinthians 10

10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud [Veil of the material world] and that they all passed through the sea [Nations]. 2 They were all baptized into Moses [Shepherd - Redeemer] in the cloud [Veil] and in the sea [nations]. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food [bread of life / manna] 4 and drank the same spiritual drink [cup of the mother's womb / blood of Christ]; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness [over time in the material world].

Let's go back now to who the beasts are in the flood.  Did the flood occur before Christ died or after?  Before.  It is a process that has been happening.  As the Ark is above the waters, so the waters wash away the beasts below.  8 people were in the Ark.  What else was in the Ark above?

We have yet another way to see this.  Elijah was reborn into John the Baptist.  To know why, we need to read 1 Kings 17.

Eliham turns off the Dew and Rain:

17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[a] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

He then travels to Zarephath (meaning refinery) and meets the widow woman with a dead son in her bosom.  He takes the Son UP to his chamber of rest, then back down to the mother.  Return to Isaiah 26.  Is this what happens in the parallel passage as well?

Isaiah 26

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Where was Lazarus sleeping when Jesus said he would go 'there' to get him?  John 11:11 - After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

We next find John the Baptist telling the leaders to bear fruit to avoid the coming wrath.  Parallel to this, 1 Kings 18 outlines a foreshadowing of that wrath on the high priests when fire consumes the water soaked wood. 

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

As I stated from the beginning, there are five baptisms.  Two are implied and three stated above. 

Earth - Clay / Dust.  Clay is carbon.  The mark of mankind is 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons.  The mark of the beast is what pulls them through the water to the cross.

Air - Nitrogen 777 and Oxygen 888.

Water - Baptism / Flood / Beasts in the temple sacrifice / water cleansing the altar

Fire - Trials - Burning the Beast

Spirit - The Goal

Now, the best part.  The word Truth is Aleph Mem Tav.  Strong Water Mark



What do you see from the pictographs of proto-Semitic letters?  A beast pulling through the water to the cross. 

In Hebrew, the word chet is sin.  It's literal meaning is missing the mark.  What is the mark of the beast?  Sin / Ego / Selfishness.  What is the mark of the water on the beast?

Salvation by the cross. 

I have much more.  I'll wait for someone to challenge this.

Emet means TRUTH.  Taking away the Aleph makes MET, or the Hebrew word Death. 

Psalm 110 (Picture of the Priest over the Battle) - Who occupies the host bodies on the battlefield?  Who directs the battle?

The Lord says to my lord:[a]

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”


2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
    “Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
    on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
    your young men will come to you
    like dew from the morning’s womb.


4 The Lord has sworn
    and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand;
    he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
    and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,

    and so he will lift his head high.

Where do you recognize this imagery?  1 Corinthians 15, as well as many other places. Who was he speaking to?  Was the High Priest baptized into new life?

Zechariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

3 Joshua was wearing filthy clothes and was standing in front of the Messenger. 4 The Messenger said to those who were standing in front of him, “Remove Joshua’s filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken your sin away from you, and I will dress you in fine clothing.”

5 So I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” They put a clean turban on his head and dressed him while the Messenger of Yahweh was standing there.

6 The Messenger of Yahweh advised Joshua, 7 “This is what Yahweh Tsebaoth says: If you live according to my ways and follow my requirements, you will govern my temple and watch over my courtyards. Then I will give you free access to walk among those standing here.

8 “Listen, Chief Priest Joshua and your friends sitting with you. These men are a sign of things to come: I’m going to bring my servant, the Branch.

9 “Look at the stone I have set in front of Joshua. That one stone has seven eyes.[a] I am engraving an inscription on it,” declares Yahweh Tsebaoth. “I will remove this land’s sin in a single day. 10 On that day,” declares Yahweh Tsebaoth, “each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree.”

Who occupied the Host of Joshua the High Priest?  The Lord Himself.  What was the foundation for the temple and when was it built?  Between this decree and the time Satan was again silenced by Yeshua / Joshua in the desert (no water or food). 

Symbolism tells you the story.  You MUST be born again and again and again.  Unless you are baptized, you cannot receive the Spirit of God as a refined mind silencing Satan. 

What Robe (body) and Crown (mind) were give to Joshua above?  What Robe do you receive in Revelation 6?

Revelation 6

10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Holy and true Master, how long before you judge and take revenge on those living on earth who shed our blood?” 11 Each of the souls was given a white robe. They were told to rest a little longer until all their coworkers, the other Christians, would be killed as they had been killed.

From here, use simple logic.  Were the Saints in alive in the first century?  Yes.  Were they alive during the tribulation?  Yes.  When did they receive the Robe?  When did the Angel cry out, HOW LONG?

I think you now realize.  We are not saved until Christ returns.  Has he returned?  Where are we in the mean time?

Christ is the Aleph Tav.  Have we reached the End yet?



I have shown you Truth.

What sets you free?  What have I shown you here?  How to see God's patience that is infinite.  He goes after the ones in the water.  The Ark saved 8, but the water saved them all.  Was Yahweh remade as a Kinsman by example to us?  Why?  God makes ALL things new.  ALL things are in and through the Son.  Who are the 8 that were saved?

How many Angels over the seven churches?  Eight!  Jesus is the head. 






 


Offline AlephBet

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I can agree that 'Baptism is the beginning of rebirth, beginning with the 'washing away of sin.....
but that is a way off from 'literal rebirth. Next comes a 'change of clean Raiment, dressed in white, 'learning Obedience and 'practicing Righteousness.
That is the simple teaching of the Bible, not wandering in the wilderness again, confusing people with endless comparisons.

Man returns from the GRAVE - not from hell. Erroniously both these terms are sometimes expressed as PIT.

Answer a few easy questions:

1. Did you exist before creation?

2. Are you in a body now?

3. Do you anticipate another body later?

4. Did Jesus promise resurrection and rebirth in some form?

5. Will the generation that pierced Christ be alive on Earth when he returns (Revelation 1)?

6. Look back at all the verses I posted.  Do each one of them say you will be born and made alive again as a resurrection from the dust of the Earth?

7. Did Jesus demonstrate his ability to raise someone into their old body?

8. Did the dry bones chapter in Ezekiel say that the people of Israel would return to bodies?

Let me know the verses that tell you different.  Yes to all the ones above. 

So far, I have heard NO verses to show me different.  I have sown pages of verses confirming the premise of the thread, including Jesus saying literally, "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN."  There is noting unclear about what he said.  Our theology lied, starting with the Pope that made a decree that Transmigration was a heresy.  Why did he say it?  Because he thought people would not live pious lives if they believed the truth.

The main reason we SHOULD believe this are the verses.  A Pope (False High Priest / Counterfeit Mediator) telling you not to should be our first clue we should.


« Last Edit: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 19:56:41 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

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This is an open debate.  We are Christians with Bibles.  Use you Bibles and tell me that I am incorrect.  Do not use your own personal theology.  Use the Bible as I have done.  If not, then simply agree that I have shown you truth.  People need to know this.  EVERY presupposition you draw about salvation will be wrong unless you do.  Let me give you an example. 

Who do you say is in hell right now, paying for their sins?  Do you have a relative that has died apart from your idea of salvation in Christ?  Where do you determine they are right now?  How about all those in the jungles of South America that died apart from a missionary on their river?  How about the generations of lives before the printing press, radio, TV, internet, missionaries and so on? 

Were promises made to people living form the Bible?  In other words, did any prophet in the Bible ever say that the people listening to him would receive a promise in the future?  YES!!!!!!!!!!  Were are they to receive the promises?

In Hebrew, AMN is Amen.  It is Aleph (Strong) Mem (Water) Nun (Seed).  Amen in Hebrew is the word TRUE.

In Greek and Latin, it is Lamb.  What two languages comprise our sacred texts?

In Greek:

AMN - Lamb
Amni - River of Life
Amnio - Bowl catching the blood of a sacrificed Lamb
Amnion - Sac in the mother's womb holding a baby
Amniotic - Fluid of the Womb
Amnesia - Condition of the baby and you.  You have forgotten
Amnesty - When God forgets your sin
dAMNation - When God remembers your sin.

Do you suppose God left this on purpose?  The only words you can make with AMN (LAMB) involve birth.

« Last Edit: Thu Mar 05, 2015 - 20:52:07 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

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And actually, we come to Christ unprepared - as we are - and He accepts us BUT we do NOT STAY AS WE ARE. It is HIS job to prepare us for the Kingdom of GOD , because GOD will not accept us in our present sinful state ! Jesus came to save His people from their sins , beginning with Repentance and Baptism !
Being ' born into GOD's KGD comes later when we have been 'prepared for it !

Your theology tells you this.  The Bible does not tell you this.  As a matter of fact, it states the opposite.  Jesus did come to save, but through baptism of Water, Fire and Spirit.  No other way.  Matthew 3 tells you this.  As for coming to Christ, you cannot unless you are prepared by the Father (John 6:65).

What does this verse mean, just before John 3?  Also, why just before John 3?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Remember, these were people that were THERE.  They were eye witnesses.  Salvation come at no other time than when Christ returns.  He stated this.  We must ALL be in the waters of life for this to happen.  ALL eyes.  Acts 24 states that both the righteous and wicked must be together at one time.  Enoch One stars of telling us this from the very first 10 verses.  Jude 1 then quotes Enoch One directly.  We don't need Enoch to tell us this.  We see it today.  BOTH are here now.  All 7 billion.  Interesting that 7 billion are on earth today. 

He does NOT need our testimony.  He already knows us as if we were him (because we are).   He would not entrust himself to they?  Why?  He can't.  Not until the coming wrath when he BRINGS salvation to us.  Where are we when we wait?  Does Revelation 1 state emphatically that those who pierced HIM would be on the Earth when he steps foot on the Mount of Olives?  YES!  What body will they have?  A reborn body.  New person, but same soul.  Who patiently waits?

Someone on this board will need to quote verses if they wish to argue my premise.  I have scripture solidly on my side. 

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

We are born again.  ALL of us. 

Everyone here reading should answer this ONE question with honesty.

Did Jesus say that those with him would be saved as his Church, as a bride adorned for the groom?  YES!  He said that to the ones living during the first century?  Where is the body of Christ today?  Where are they doing their works prepared for them to do?  In Heaven?  NO!  We are not saved until Christ returns. 

Where?  Everyone reading, simply tell me where the bride is today.  By Jewish tradition, NOT with the Groom. 

Not with the Groom. 

Please, we need to ensure that we no longer condemn people to hell.  We are entirely wrong for doing so.





« Last Edit: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 20:46:43 by AlephBet »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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This is an open debate.  We are Christians with Bibles.  Use you Bibles and tell me that I am incorrect.
You have buried us in a 100 verses to try to (re)interpret for you.  It takes little time to post a verse, but significant expenditure of time for someone to develop the context of any given passage and show you why it should be interpreted differently than what you have done.

The debate will be more fruitful if we can trim it down to something more manageable - a single thesis and say...3 supporting texts?

Your thesis seems to be:
Christ's death emptied hell, and threw all those in the pit back into a cycle of death and re-birth where they are being purified.  This world is purgatory.

Feel free to re-phrase or draw it up completely differently.  It's your argument, after all.

Jarrod

Offline AlephBet

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This is an open debate.  We are Christians with Bibles.  Use you Bibles and tell me that I am incorrect.
You have buried us in a 100 verses to try to (re)interpret for you.  It takes little time to post a verse, but significant expenditure of time for someone to develop the context of any given passage and show you why it should be interpreted differently than what you have done.

The debate will be more fruitful if we can trim it down to something more manageable - a single thesis and say...3 supporting texts?

Your thesis seems to be:
Christ's death emptied hell, and threw all those in the pit back into a cycle of death and re-birth where they are being purified.  This world is purgatory.

Feel free to re-phrase or draw it up completely differently.  It's your argument, after all.

Jarrod

Yes.  1 Peter 3 is a good place to start.  Your premise above would be a good starting point.  I have outlined it already in the original post.  Any single part of the original post could be used as a separate idea. If someone would like to use 1 King 17 in comparison to Elijah and John in Matthew 3, this would work as well.  There are SO MANY passages, it would be hard to deny even one verse.  "You MUST be born again," would be another.

I believe most people realize they would fail if they tried to deny what the Bible clearly says on the topic.  The premise in the original post has the upper ground (pun intended). 


Offline Charlie24

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I can throw away my glasses now. I've seen it all!

Offline AlephBet

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I can throw away my glasses now. I've seen it all!

Do you have verses to share?  Do you disagree with the premise?  Is there a perspective in relation to the subject?  Please show me where you find error in my argument for rebirth being literal. 


Offline Red Baker

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Your thesis seems to be: Christ's death emptied hell, and threw all those in the pit back into a cycle of death and re-birth where they are being purified.  This world is purgatory. Feel free to re-phrase or draw it up completely differently.  It's your argument, after all.

I agree with Jarrod~I will debate the following two scriptures with AlephBetJohn 3:3-5; and 1 Peter 3:18-21, and it make no difference to me which one you chose first.  These two seem to be your main support for your bizarre teachings.   

Offline AlephBet

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If you are going to debate me, then read all of this as you would a good book.  Don't skim, then hit reply as soon as you come by a point you do not recognize.  Read it all.  Think on it.  Give me the benefit of the doubt for 10 minutes of your life.  THEN, reply. 

We'll start with 1 Peter 3

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

By the end, you will understand why I made that 14 point font.  Keep reading. 

My answer is founded on the hope we all have that Christ will return to bring salvation.  Hebrews 9 tells us that we all wait until he appears again.  When he appeared the first time, he came to deal with sin.  The second time he does not come to deal with sin, but to bring salvation from the process of dealing with sin (Baptism). I can list countless verses that tell you that baptism in the water, fire and Spirit are ALL parts of a larger process that was promised to all of us then and now.  The flood of Noah is the water that saves us now. 

By saying to revere Christ as Lord in your heart, it is comparing him to the Lord of the Old Testament.  Christ is the risen Lord.  Jesus was the human Son of God.  Yahweh had not yet prepared Joshua / Yeshua to pay the penalty for shedding blood (Genesis 9).  He did this in Zechariah 3.  Yahweh had divided mankind into one nation at war against the rest.  He shed blood against the prohibition of the Father (Elohim) in Genesis 9.

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans his blood will be shed,
        because in his image, Elohim made humans.

His own nation shed his blood.  In answer to the fall, sin and the resulting flood, the Ark saved 8 people.  The water (baptism) saves the rest.  It's the entire point of baptism.  Did Yahweh become Joshua the High Priest (Yeshua) as the foundation of the temple?  Yes.  Was Yahweh Adonai and Lord?  Yes.  Was Jesus Adonai?  Yes.  Jesus was baptized for one reason.  God made him a new creation.  Jesus was made sin for us as Yahweh dividing man's image and shedding blood.  By this, he had to be made new in the same process that NOW saves us.  Zechariah 3 shows you Joshua being clothed and crowned for his HOST body as Yahweh.  He is the Lord of Hosts.  We are the Host body in the waters of life.  Baptism is our Soul with HIS Spirit.  Together as one (Bride and Groom).  There is no division between Yahweh / Satan and Jesus / Christ.  They are the SAME Lord.  One was fallen to Earth (Ezekiel 28 / Isaiah 14) and the other risen back to God.  BAPTISM!

Do you look at Yahweh's wars and call him a good ruler?  A loving ruler?  A Saint?  How about his war on heaven so he could rule from Jerusalem?  Isaiah 24 outlines his war on Angels in Heaven and rulers on both Earth and in Heaven.  Did this happen, or did he come as a baby, showing us how he would conquer by Spirit and not strength or might?  God made him new.  Humble.  Loving.  Able to see with human eyes how his rule had destroyed the Earth.  God is raising a Son.  In the same process, you and I are parallel.  You cannot be worse than Yahweh / Satan or better than Jesus / Christ.  Above to below.  Below back to God.  The Son of God is Aleph Tav.  All points in between. 

Now that you know this, return to the very top of 1 Peter 3.  Is the context of this husbands and wives (those consummated as male and female)?  Yes!  It's the topic of who we are baptized in as the child of God below and the Angel facing God above.  Bride is adorned.  Groom builds the house strong.  Aleph Bet (Father) is the Strong House.

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Is the topic of Matthew 18 the child that is greatest in the kingdom of God above?  Yes.  Jesus was showing another mystery related to all the other mysteries.  We are the child of God here (Wife / Eve / Bride).  We are the Angel above (husband / Groom / Adam / Son).  What will we be at resurrection, after all of this flood is over?

Matthew 22:30

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

No marriage necessary.  We will be rejoined with our groom.  Today, you are Eve being refined.  You are the beast in the waters of the flood.  You are Mary united with Jesus by seed as a kinsman of the Redeemer.  You are Ruth at the feet (euphemism for genitals / seed) of Boaz (Guardian Redeemer).   All of this is the work we do here in the waters of life to refine our Spirit (Eve / Feminine / Consciousness).  Above, we are the one God made in perfection.  We are always both at the same time. 

Back to 1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Are you IN HIS body now (Church) and IN the WATER?  YES!  When do you receive your new Robe (BODY) in the Spirit?  Is the BODY prepared to do good works?  WHEN?  In the last 40 years of your one life, or in the last 14 billion that you have been around?

Revelation 6

0 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

Have the end times happened yet?  Rapture of the Saints?  Are Saints being killed now?  Did the Saints live to write scriptures 2000 years ago?  Christ MUST come to bring salvation to those who wait.  We know this.  It's not in question.  We must be here to live life until then.  Even those who pierced Christ will be here to see him return. EVERY eye.  All 14 billion eyes will see.

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,

even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Has he come to bring Salvation?

Is Christ the Last?  Yes.  He is also the firstfruits.  Why do they mourn for him?  Because he died so we could live.  We are the body here.  He is the head there.  No one is there with the Father until Christ comes to bring the Saints to receive their new Robe.  We are here.  Why?

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Will your body here be saved?  NO!  It's chaff.  Will your Soul be saved, allowing you to occupy the Spirit Body?  Yes!  Do you have that body now?  No!  Were you around from the beginning?  How old are you today in this life?  40?  Where were you for the last 6000 years (or even 14 billion)?  IN THE WATER or in the Pit.  Where were you when Christ told you that Baptism was the way out?

Who are the Angels, authorities and powers mentioned in red above?

Colossians 1

16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Where have you been Angel?  Was Satan made by Yahweh?  YES, in Genesis 3:1.  Is Satan in submission to Yahweh?

Zechariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

3 Joshua was wearing filthy clothes and was standing in front of the Messenger. 4 The Messenger said to those who were standing in front of him, “Remove Joshua’s filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken your sin away from you, and I will dress you in fine clothing.”

5 So I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” They put a clean turban on his head and dressed him while the Messenger of Yahweh was standing there.

Did the High Priest Joshua / Yeshua receive the FIRST new Robe and Crown?  Yes.  He was prepared as a Host for Yahweh.  Jesus is the Lord.  But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord.  Why did he pay the price for us?

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
    and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
    with my own eyes—I, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me!

---Did Job know he would live to see the Redeemer return?  YES!  He states it literally.  Is he one of the ALL eyes seeing from Revelation 1?  YES!

Here is where you see the trouble of Yahweh clearly:

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
    since the root of the trouble lies in him,’

29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
    for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
    and then you will know that there is judgment.

Who is the trouble in?  In and though the Son, who is all of us combined, including all powers, rulers and authorities.  ALL means All.  We are the Son of God (his body).  He is the first one born.  We follow after.  First we are ALL born below.  Then, we are ALL born above.  We were here from the foundation. 

Why is Satan thrown into the abyss with HIS angels?  He is not real.  He is the conscience of us all.  Once we overcome, there is no need for an accuser.  We have overcome the need.  Satan is a power, not a person.  Yahweh is the Ego, not a person.  The Father, Spirit and the Son are the ONLY ones that are real.  The rest is the universe used to raise us.  Are you real?  YES!  We are HIS offspring.  Copies of the original image, complete with EGO and Conscience. 

Summary

In summary.  ALL things ARE the Son of God, including all powers, rulers and authorities (not literal people).  We are the Angels in perfection and the children in an artificial copy (image).  The Lord is the Lord of Hosts.  Our body is the Host body, used to refine the Spirit (Eve).  We each have a unique Spirit from the pattern of the first.  We are the Angels with Christ form the beginning.  We are the Morning Stars that sang at creation.  Creation was made to engage our free will and clothe us from nakedness.  How?

In Genesis 2, Adam and Eve were NAKED (Arum).  Satan was Arummim (Clothed / Cunning / with knowledge).  Adam and Eve had NO knowledge.  They needed an accuser (conscience) to be clothed.  Satan is the conscience of the Son of God as well.  Yahweh is the Ego (adversary / guardian from Gal. 3).  Together, they form the template (temple) that makes us all.  All are necessary.  To silence Satan (conscience), we must walk in the material wilderness, wandering until we can cross the River of Life (Jordan) and exit to the promised land.  Are you there now?  No. Why?  Moses must help us cross the wilderness together as one people.  ALL OF US!  Moses CANNOT enter because of HIS sin.  He was made sin for us.  He TOO had to rise to new life.  The Son is not the Father, but one with the Father.  The Father is raising the weak nature of the Son (Eve / Spirit).  By this, so too are we raised. 

How do you silence the conscience (Satan)?

1 Peter 3

21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Silencing Satan requires that we are clothed (Arummim) and more cunning than Him.  How else can you overcome? Where do we learn this?  Here!  Trials to eat food (knowledge). 

Read my statement again from the top:

My answer is founded on the hope we all have that Christ will return to bring salvation.  Hebrews 9 tells us that we all wait until he appears again.  When he appeared the first time, he came to deal with sin.  The second time he does not come to deal with sin, but to bring salvation from the process of dealing with sin (Baptism). I can list countless verses that tell you that baptism in the water, fire and Spirit are ALL parts of a larger process that was promised to all of us then and now.  The flood of Noah is the water that saves us now. 

All the mysteries are solved by knowing what I show you here today.  You need only know you have been here the entire week.  God saves us all.  If blood thirsty Yahweh can be saved, so can you.  If Jesus is sinless, then so can you be.  Even Hitler must be born gain.  God makes ALL things new again.  He loves us all.  Christ was made to be our sin.  All of us.

Why?  He is the one that holds us all together as one.  HIS creation and image is the Genesis 2 garden.  We are here now.  We were cast out of paradise.  We are in both places at the same time.  God made all things good.  We return when we are ready.  The Father prepares us to meet the Son.  All of us. 

All eyes will see.

Can Christ disown himself?  Are we in him?  All powers, rulers and authorities.  ALL means ALL.

Does the Father of Love judge us and keep records of wrongs?

John 5

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Does the Son judge us?

John 8

15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

Neither of them judges us.  They forgive our sins.  Unless Jesus forgives us, he judges himself.  Unless we forgive even Satan, we judge ourselves.  The water NOW save us too. 

Can Christ disown himself?

2 Tim 2

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
    we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
    we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
    he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
    he remains faithful,
    for he cannot disown himself.


Christ must be seen in parallel to our self (Angel) above.  Unless we forgive ourselves, we have a conscience that condemns.  We overcome by knowing our self. 

The Son is in and through us all.  We ARE the Son. 





« Last Edit: Wed Mar 04, 2015 - 19:15:57 by AlephBet »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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If you are going to debate me, then read all of this as you would a good book.  Don't skim, then hit reply as soon as you come by a point you do not recognize.  Read it all.  Think on it.  Give me the benefit of the doubt for 10 minutes of your life.  THEN, reply.
You won't have that problem with Red.  He and I don't always agree, but in my experience, he's nothing if not thorough.  Do be prepared to wait a day or two for a response, given how much material you've put out there to cover.

Oh, and I meant to continue the thread as well.  However, you chose a passage (1Peter 3) which I haven't ever really studied in any depth, so I have to work through it myself prior to answering.

Jarrod

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Yes.  1 Peter 3 is a good place to start.  Your premise above would be a good starting point.  I have outlined it already in the original post.  Any single part of the original post could be used as a separate idea. If someone would like to use 1 King 17 in comparison to Elijah and John in Matthew 3, this would work as well.  There are SO MANY passages, it would be hard to deny even one verse.  "You MUST be born again," would be another.

I believe most people realize they would fail if they tried to deny what the Bible clearly says on the topic.  The premise in the original post has the upper ground (pun intended).
Let's start with the verses:

1Peter 3:17-22
For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


I think we agree that this says that Jesus, upon His death, descended to Hades, and there preached to those who died in the flood of Noah.  Likewise, I think we have no disagreement that these were killed in the flood due to their wickedness and disobedience, and that Noah and his family (the 8) were saved through the flood in the Ark.

In verse 21 I think our interpretations part ways with "like figure."  The Greek word is antitypos - meaning that the former story/events in Noah's day, were a type or  shadow of what-came-later.  What came later is clearly stated here to be baptism.  But what about the type? 

I hold that the type is Noah and his family (the 8) being saved in the Ark.  You would extend the type to include all those who were drowned in the flood.  I think that's an error.

(A) In the type, Noah and family were saved - they lived.
(B) The people outside the ark did not - they perished.
(C) In the antitype, baptism saves - causes people to live.

(A) In the type, Noah and family were buried in the waters of the flood, but then re-surfaced. 
(B) The people outside the ark did not come back up out of the waters.
(C) In baptism, the initiate is buried in the waters, and then re-surfaces.

(A) matches (C) closely.  The people from (B) were not saved in the type.  There is no reason to think they were saved in the anti-type!

It's likely that we are talking past each other, because we have a word here for which we don't agree on the definition.  That word is baptism.  So let me give my definition of baptism, and then perhaps you can 'try on' my paradigm, as I have put yours on in order to understand what you've said.

In my view, baptism is an adoption ceremony, meant to change one's paternity.  The baptizee is 'buried' in the water, and this (metaphorical, not actual) death abolishes their existing genealogy.  Then in their ascension from the water, they are (again metaphorically, not actually) re-born, but with a new father.  For this reason, a person is baptized "in the name of..." someone.  The person-whose-name-they-are-baptized-into becomes their new father (assuming that father assents to the adoption).  Since Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father," they become sons of God, with all the privileges accorded thereof (joint-heirs the book says).

Try on that paradigm, and perhaps try reading through some of the Bible using that point-of-view, and see if it doesn't make sense to you.

Jarrod

Offline Red Baker

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Yes.  1 Peter 3 is a good place to start.  Your premise above would be a good starting point.


I read your post and will wait to refute it after I first give my understanding of 1 Peter 3:18-22, mainly 1 Peter 3:19, since the other verses are not as critical to your post, but will comment on them, so as not to give the opportunity for you, or anyone else to think that we are unable to do so, and for the benefit of God's children.  I will most likely break it down into more than one post, for the sake of others to be able to focus on shorter post more so, than longer ones.  So here we go.  May the God of heaven bless this to the edification, and comfort of his children, and for his glory.   

1 Peter 3:18-22

  .
  "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." 

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins~ Not his own, for he committed none, but for the sins of his people; in order to obtain the remission of them, to make reconciliation for them, and to take and put them away, and finish and make an end of them; which sufferings of his, on account of them, were many and great: he suffered much by bearing the griefs, and carrying the sorrows of his people, whereby he became a man of sorrows, and acquainted with griefs, from his cradle to his cross; and from the temptations of Satan, being in all points tempted, as his members are, though without sin; and from the contradiction of sinners against him, in his name, credit, and character, abusing him as the worst of men; and he suffered in his soul, from the wrath of God, and curses of the law, which lay upon him; and in his body, by many buffetings, scourges, wounds, and death itself, even the death of the cross; and which being the finishing part of his sufferings, is chiefly here meant.

the just for the unjust~ Christ, the holy and just one, who is holy in his nature, and righteous in his life and actions, which were entirely conformable to the righteous law of God, and upright and faithful in the discharge of his office, and therefore called God's righteous servant; he suffered, and that not only by unjust men, by the Jews, by Pilate, and the Roman soldiers, but for and in the room and stead of unjust men, sinners, and ungodly, who were destitute of righteousness, and full of all unrighteousness; and since he did, it need not be thought hard, or strange, that sinful men should suffer at the hands of others; and still it should be borne with the greater patience, since Christ not only suffered for them, but since an end is answered by it, as is here suggested:

that he might bring us to God~Nigh to God, who, with respect to communion, were afar off from him; and in peace and reconciliation with him, who were enemies to him by wicked works; and that they might have freedom of access, with boldness, unto God, through his precious blood, and the vail of his flesh.

being put to death in the flesh~In the human nature: flesh includes the whole of human nature, both body and soul; for though the body only dies, yet death is the dissolution of the union between them both; and such was Christ's death; for though the union between the two natures continued, yet his body and soul were disunited; his body was left on the cross, and his soul, or Spirit, was commended to God, when his life was taken from the earth, and he was put to death in a violent manner by men:

but quickened by the Spirit~Raised from the dead by his divine nature, the Spirit of holiness, the eternal Spirit, by which he offered himself, and by virtue of which, as he had power to lay down his life, so he had power to take it up again; when he was also justified in the Spirit, and all the elect in him. Now, as the enemies of Christ could do no more than put him to death in the flesh, so the enemies of his people can do no more than kill the body, and cannot reach the soul; and as Christ is quickened and raised from the dead, so all his elect are quickened together, and raised with him, representatively, and shall, by virtue of his resurrection, be raised personally, and live also; which is no inconsiderable argument to suffer afflictions patiently, and which is the design of this instance and example of the sufferings, death, and resurrection of Christ.

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison~Here is were many begin to show if they are taught of God or not.  Are these words saying that Christ went personally and preached unto spirits in prison/Hades, or the middle of the earth, where many think that Christ went when he died?  Not even close are these words saying that.  First, let us say a few things, then we will give the interpretation of this words, which are not really hard to follow. 

There are many who theorize that this passages speak of a type of purgatory, the spiritual under-world or intermediate place of the imprisoned lost. However, these theories are contrary to all that the Holy Canon declares about sin, judgment and our mortality. The Bible is perfectly clear that whatever spiritual condition a person dies in (whether saved or unsaved), that is the condition in which he will stand before God and be judged. There is no possibility for a second chance at redemption after death. So all of the many variations of this doctrine are decidedly unbiblical.

Once a person leaves this earth in death, his chance for redemption is over. There is no remembrance of him in the grave, and on the last day (John 12:48) when he is raised up to be paid according to what he has done while he was in this world. There is no Spirit of Christ preaching to any unsaved person after physical death, for death is appointed to every single one of us, and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27) of God. By the same token, when we receive salvation in this world through the work of Christ, we are no longer under judgment to be condemned for sin and are judged as perfect before God. There is nothing in the Holy Scriptures that would even imply that there is a second chance at salvation after death. This divine truth is also made abundantly clear in the parable of Lazarus. Christ explains this parable saying there is a great gulf fixed (Luke 16:26) where it is impossible for the redeemed to pass from one side to the side of the unsaved who died, or those who died unsaved to pass over to the side of the redeemed. Thus if anyone dies unsaved, that is the condition that they will remain in.

So then, what does the Scriptures teach on how did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison? In all honesty, only the Word of God can interpret the Word of God (Genesis 40:8) since it is the only infallible authority. No man can privately interpret God's Word, and so we must surrender to what His Word says in order to receive an answer (Genesis 41:16) concerning understanding.

How did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison? These can be difficult passages, but we can begin to understand what it actually means if we follow carefully what it actually says with no preconceived ideas about the interpretation and "in the light of the rest of the Bible." Because the Bible was not written in a vacuum, nor was it subject to any personal opinions or private interpretation of the saints of old. Thus it is not subject to our private interpretation or personal opinions today. Our interpretation and opinion should be subject to it, because every Word is divinely inspired.

When I am asked, "How did Christ preach to the spirits in prison," the obvious answer seems to me to be "exactly as the passage itself declares."

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. Various are the senses given of this passage: some say, that Christ, upon his death, went in his human soul to hell; either, as some, to preach to the devils and damned spirits, that they might be saved, if they would; and, as others, to let them know that he was come, and to fill them with dread and terror; but though hell may be meant by the prison, yet the text does not say that he went unto it, or preached in it; only that the spirits were in it, to whom he sometimes went, and preached; nor is his human soul, but his divine nature meant, by the Spirit, by which he went and preached to them: and as for the ends proposed, the former is impracticable and impossible; for as we have already said~ after death follows judgment, which is an eternal one; nor is there any salvation, or hope of salvation afterwards; and the latter is absurd, vain, and needless. Others, as the Papists, imagine the sense to be, that Christ, at his death, went in his human soul, into a place they call "Limbus Patrum," which they suppose is meant by the prison here, and delivered the souls of the Old Testament saints and patriarchs from thence, and carried them with him to heaven; but this sense is also false, because, as before observed, not the human soul of Christ, but his divine nature, is designed by the Spirit; nor is there any such place as here feigned, in which the souls of Old Testament saints were, before the death of Christ; for they were in peace and rest, in the kingdom of heaven, in Abraham's bosom, inheriting the promises, and not in a prison; besides, the text says not one word of the delivering of these spirits out of prison, only of Christ's preaching to them: add to all this, the apostle speaks of such as had been disobedient, and unbelievers; a character which will not agree with righteous men, and prophets, and patriarchs, under the former dispensation.

The plain and easy sense of the words is:  That Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, (2 Peter 2:5) and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison.  Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature; and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.  Consider this scripture to help one to see what we are saying:

1 Peter 1:11

  .
  "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Just as the Spirit of Christ/God was in the prophets of old, so was the SAME Spirit in Noah a preacher of righteousness witness to those in his days who were disobedient~ when once the longsuffering of God waited to destroy those reprobates while Noah was building the ark, those same spirits were in prison, and were still at the time of Peter writing his epistle.  This is the truth of Peter's words.  I know this is long, please forgive. 
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 05, 2015 - 16:31:57 by Red Baker »

Offline AlephBet

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Yes.  1 Peter 3 is a good place to start.  Your premise above would be a good starting point.  I have outlined it already in the original post.  Any single part of the original post could be used as a separate idea. If someone would like to use 1 King 17 in comparison to Elijah and John in Matthew 3, this would work as well.  There are SO MANY passages, it would be hard to deny even one verse.  "You MUST be born again," would be another.

I believe most people realize they would fail if they tried to deny what the Bible clearly says on the topic.  The premise in the original post has the upper ground (pun intended).

Let's start with the verses:

1Peter 3:17-22
For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


I think we agree that this says that Jesus, upon His death, descended to Hades, and there preached to those who died in the flood of Noah.  Likewise, I think we have no disagreement that these were killed in the flood due to their wickedness and disobedience, and that Noah and his family (the 8) were saved through the flood in the Ark.

In verse 21 I think our interpretations part ways with "like figure."  The Greek word is antitypos - meaning that the former story/events in Noah's day, were a type or  shadow of what-came-later.  What came later is clearly stated here to be baptism.  But what about the type? 

I hold that the type is Noah and his family (the 8) being saved in the Ark.  You would extend the type to include all those who were drowned in the flood.  I think that's an error.

(A) In the type, Noah and family were saved - they lived.
(B) The people outside the ark did not - they perished.
(C) In the antitype, baptism saves - causes people to live.

(A) In the type, Noah and family were buried in the waters of the flood, but then re-surfaced. 
(B) The people outside the ark did not come back up out of the waters.
(C) In baptism, the initiate is buried in the waters, and then re-surfaces.

(A) matches (C) closely.  The people from (B) were not saved in the type.  There is no reason to think they were saved in the anti-type!

It's likely that we are talking past each other, because we have a word here for which we don't agree on the definition.  That word is baptism.  So let me give my definition of baptism, and then perhaps you can 'try on' my paradigm, as I have put yours on in order to understand what you've said.

In my view, baptism is an adoption ceremony, meant to change one's paternity.  The baptizee is 'buried' in the water, and this (metaphorical, not actual) death abolishes their existing genealogy.  Then in their ascension from the water, they are (again metaphorically, not actually) re-born, but with a new father.  For this reason, a person is baptized "in the name of..." someone.  The person-whose-name-they-are-baptized-into becomes their new father (assuming that father assents to the adoption).  Since Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father," they become sons of God, with all the privileges accorded thereof (joint-heirs the book says).

Try on that paradigm, and perhaps try reading through some of the Bible using that point-of-view, and see if it doesn't make sense to you.

Jarrod


I'll start with this.

(A) In the type, Noah and family were saved - they lived.

---Yes.  They lived, bearing seed that then expanded humanity again to receive Souls.  If the seed had not been saved (remnant), the the flesh would not be able to return.  The seed is the miracle of life (Bread from Letters of the Father).  We cannot take away the fact that the Father is Aleph Bet, the Mother Aleph Mem (Water) and the Son Bet Nun (house of seed / bread).  See this thread:  LINK

---I know it's hard to see, but try to read the thread above.  If you don't know this information, the baptism cannot make sense.  It has a root meaning.  Does the blood of Christ represent simply WINE, or does it have a root meaning in DNA?  Will HIS blood save us by allowing our own sin nature to be overcome by HIS seed?  Yes.  It's the entire point of the ordinances.  Baptism is an ordinance, just as the cup and bread symbolize the very life we have from the creative process of Letters (Aleph Bet / Father) and Word (fruit of the letters of DNA). 

(B) The people outside the ark did not - they perished.

---Yes, thus the need for Jesus to be the herald that makes the proclamation. 

Parallel to 1 Peter 3 is 2 Peter 3.

 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Are we saved before the ungodly are destroyed?  No.  Christ must come make the enemy his footstool.  This has not happened yet, nor has the next few verses happened concerning the fire that makes bear the Earth.  Judgement of this nature needs 1000 years more.  One Day of peace first.  The dead will be brought back to life in the waters, but the first resurrection needs to happen before this.  All eyes must be here in the water to see Christ return, even those who pierced Christ.  The fullness of the Gentiles must arrive in time for Christ to return. 

(C) In the antitype, baptism saves - causes people to live.

---Yes.  The Ark is the boat that saved 8.  The water NOW saves you also. 

(A) In the type, Noah and family were buried in the waters of the flood, but then re-surfaced. 

---Not just Noah.  The beasts as well.  The mark of the beast is Carbon, or 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons.  Man wears the skin of the beast.  We are the ones in the temple sacrifice.  The unrighteous will ALL be destroyed.  They are us.  ALL of us.  We are the Chaff.  Why kill us all?  We must rise back, but not before we are liberated from this body (chaff).  Nothing can kill the soul.  It rises as a bride back to the Groom (Angel above). 

(B) The people outside the ark did not come back up out of the waters.

---Yes they did.  The proclamation is what brought them back.  They are us. 

As a little side note, what do you now see in this next passage, since you know the correct view of baptism?  Little things like this are hidden all over.  Think of floodstage as 7 billion people entering just before harvest.  One stream goes to the dead sea and the other crosses over to dry land. 

Joshua 3 (Town called Adam)

14 So when the people broke camp to cross the Jordan, the priests carrying the ark of the covenant went ahead of them. 15 Now the Jordan is at flood stage all during harvest. Yet as soon as the priests who carried the ark reached the Jordan and their feet touched the water’s edge, 16 the water from upstream stopped flowing. It piled up in a heap a great distance away, at a town called Adam in the vicinity of Zarethan, while the water flowing down to the Sea of the Arabah (that is, the Dead Sea) was completely cut off. So the people crossed over opposite Jericho. 17 The priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord stopped in the middle of the Jordan and stood on dry ground, while all Israel passed by until the whole nation had completed the crossing on dry ground.

(C) In baptism, the initiate is buried in the waters, and then re-surfaces.

Yes, immersed for one reason:  TO RISE TO NEW LIFE! 

You have accurately described my view.  We MUST be born again.  Literal.

YOU SAID: In my view, baptism is an adoption ceremony, meant to change one's paternity.  The baptizee is 'buried' in the water, and this (metaphorical, not actual) death abolishes their existing genealogy.  Then in their ascension from the water, they are (again metaphorically, not actually) re-born, but with a new father.  For this reason, a person is baptized "in the name of..." someone.  The person-whose-name-they-are-baptized-into becomes their new father (assuming that father assents to the adoption).  Since Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father," they become sons of God, with all the privileges accorded thereof (joint-heirs the book says).

It's never a symbol that fails to point to something of action that is real.  All Hebrew words are action verbs first.  They always describe an action taken.  We cannot subtract the Jewish knowledge of the Word itself.  The letters hold the larger meaning.  Look at my threads.  Know the Aleph Bet (Father) by knowing the Son (Word).  It's all about saving humanity in the waters of the Jordan.  We must cross over them.  Where did Moses Cross first?  Did he part the waters, just as the waters were parted above?  Yes.  We are IN the waters that NOW save you also.  ALSO!


Offline AlephBet

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TO RED:

I paused here to answer quickly, then I'll keep reading.  This passage you wrote summarizes the comments above it:

YOU SAID: There is nothing in the Holy Scriptures that would even imply that there is a second chance at salvation after death. This divine truth is also made abundantly clear in the parable of Lazarus. Christ explains this parable saying there is a great gulf fixed (Luke 16:26) where it is impossible for the redeemed to pass from one side to the side of the unsaved who died, or those who died unsaved to pass over to the side of the redeemed. Thus if anyone dies unsaved, that is the condition that they will remain in.

Read all verses with careful consideration to the comment you made above. 

Psalm 71:20

Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

Let me give you a few that refute what you are saying.  IN ORDER from my previous posts in this thread.  Your contention above is that there are NO verses that suggest that we are born again. 

IN ORDER:

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

John 3

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Hebrews 11 (BY FAITH)

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

Job 2

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.

WHAT DOES A SNAKE DO?  SHED A SKIN, BUT IS THE SAME BEAST.  JOB DID GET HIS CHILDREN BACK.  They were born again.  Skin for Skin.  Satan was clothed (Arummim).  He knew.  Adam was naked (Arum / no knowledge).  Clothed with the skin of a beast. 

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
    and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet[e] in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
    with my own eyes—I, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me!

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Job 33

23 Yet if there is an angel at their side,
    a messenger, one out of a thousand,
    sent to tell them how to be upright,
24 and he is gracious to that person and says to God,
    ‘Spare them from going down to the pit;
    I have found a ransom for them—


---Can I interject here and just say.  No I don't need to say.  You already know who the ransom was. 

25 let their flesh be renewed like a child’s;
    let them be restored as in the days of their youth’—
26 then that person can pray to God and find favor with him,
    they will see God’s face and shout for joy;
    he will restore them to full well-being.
27 And they will go to others and say,
    ‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right,
    but I did not get what I deserved.
28 God has delivered me from going down to the pit,
    and I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’

29 “God does all these things to a person—
    twice, even three times—
30 to turn them back from the pit,
    that the light of life may shine on them.


"No one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or wife or children or land for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age - homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields ... and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30)

When is the age to come?

Deuteronomy 6

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

20 In the future, when your son asks you, “What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?” 21 tell him: “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

These promises were to them for future outcomes.  What is resurrection?  Where are the heavens?  In all cases, the heavens are out there beyond the sky of earth.  There will be a new Earth and Heaven.  We know this.  You will occupy a new body.  We know this.  There is yet 1000 years on this earth.  We know this.

Do Dry Bones Sound Familiar?

Ezekiel 37:12
Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:13
Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.

Psalm 30:3
You, Lord, brought me up from the realm of the dead; you spared me from going down to the pit.

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Where do we wait?

I will keep reading your post now.  Another reply will follow. 








 
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 05, 2015 - 20:58:56 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

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TO RED:

I read the rest of your post and you are using theory from theological commentary to complicate what is simple.  What is the purpose of baptism?  To immerse the soul in water, which you are 80%.  We are MOSTLY water.  Jesus came to do what?  FISH for men?  Where does a fisherman fish from?  The Boat.  Where are the fish? 

On this point, you must admit I have a point.  We are all fishers of men, with SOME righteous and some unrighteous.  We are here to assist fish out of water.  Can you give me 1 point here on this?

Second, The Father is the Aleph Bet and he writes the Word.  Literally, the Hebrew word Father is the same word we use for letters.  What does DNA represent?  Letters in the mother's womb making a baby. 

Can you give me another point here? Yes. 

In Genesis 1, the Ruach (Feminine) Spirit of God hovered over the waters which were void.  No life.  The Father typically adds DNA to a mother's womb to make a baby.  Was Adam created later in the narrative of Genesis Chapter 1?  Yes.  Is he called the bread of life?  Yes.  Can you make bread from seed alone, or do you need water also?  Yes again.  She is the Aleph Mem, or Hebrew word Mother.  She is the cup we pass (womb).  If you add letters of seed into a mother, do you get a Son?  If you add seed into a cup of water, do you get bread after it bakes in an oven?  Yes you do. 



We see a trend here.  Water. 

Your argument is that Jesus went into the pit to preach, but NOT bring them into the cleansing waters to be born again, even though this IS the topic of 1 Peter 3.  It is also the topic of the TOP of the chapter about wives and husbands.  Are we a bride for the groom?  YES!   Are we wives in the future for the Groom of our salvation.  Are we married yet?

NO! 

Where is he coming for his bride?  The Pit?

Take a long hard look at this.  I have done the same.  I was once in your camp.  No more.  I am now in the waters of life helping fish men out. 

Can you give me a point in the discussion on all my points so far? 

1) Do I have an undeniable truth here with fishing and how to fish form a boat?

2)  Did I show you MANY verses that show life emerging again from the pit / Abyss / Dark waters where there is no light?

Did a light shine in the abyss?  Did that light then say that living water was available for thirsty souls?

Hands down, God has show us both the truth. 

While I am on the subject, can you give me another point for the word truth itself. 

ALEPH MEM TAV (TRUTH in HEBREW)



What do you see.  Is the Ox a strong beast pulling us through water to the cross?  Is it a STRONG WATER MARK?

Sin in Hebrew is the word CHET.  It means missing the mark.

How do you hit the mark and receive the STRONG WATER MARK as an anti-type to missing the mark (mark of the beast)?

Is the beast offered up for sacrifice in the temple?  Is the body of Christ the temple?  Did he bear our sin on the MARK of the CROSS?

What is the TRUTH?

Can you answer my question? 

Now you can.  You now know.  Once you know, you cannot unknow. 

There is no debate.  The WORD itself is TRUTH. 

AMN is AMEN.  It means TRUE. 

AMN in Greek is LAMB

Is this the TRUE LAMB and his message of salvation?  You must be born again?

What did he mean from AMN (LET IT BE TRUE)?

In Greek and Latin:

AMN - Lamb
Amni - River of Life
Amnio - Bowl catching the blood of a sacrificed Lamb
Amnion - Sac in the mother's womb holding a baby
Amniotic - Fluid of the Womb
Amnesia - Condition of the baby and you.  You have forgotten
Amnesty - When God forgets your sin
dAMNation - When God remembers your sin.

It's a cloud of witness.  We ARE born in this process.  It's the way we are immersed in the water to RISE to NEW life. 

Resurrection happens here.  Spirit baptism is not water baptism.  We receive the Spirit when?

Christ's return.  Not before. 
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 05, 2015 - 20:59:21 by AlephBet »

Offline Brother Johan

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TO RED:

I read the rest of your post and you are using theory from theological commentary to complicate what is simple.  What is the purpose of baptism?  To immerse the soul in water, which you are 80%.  We are MOSTLY water.  Jesus came to do what?  FISH for men?  Where does a fisherman fish from?  The Boat.  Where are the fish? 

On this point, you must admit I have a point.  We are all fishers of men, with SOME righteous and some unrighteous.  We are here to assist fish out of water.  Can you give me 1 point here on this?

Second, The Father is the Aleph Bet and he writes the Word.  Literally, the Hebrew word Father is the same word we use for letters.  What does DNA represent?  Letters in the mother's womb making a baby. 

Can you give me another point here? Yes. 

In Genesis 1, the Ruach (Feminine) Spirit of God hovered over the waters which were void.  No life.  The Father typically adds DNA to a mother's womb to make a baby.  Was Adam created later in the narrative of Genesis Chapter 1?  Yes.  Is he called the bread of life?  Yes.  Can you make bread from seed alone, or do you need water also?  Yes again.  She is the Aleph Mem, or Hebrew word Mother.  She is the cup we pass (womb).  If you add letters of seed into a mother, do you get a Son?  If you add seed into a cup of water, do you get bread after it bakes in an oven?  Yes you do. 



We see a trend here.  Water. 

Your argument is that Jesus went into the pit to preach, but NOT bring them into the cleansing waters to be born again, even though this IS the topic of 1 Peter 3.  It is also the topic of the TOP of the chapter about wives and husbands.  Are we a bride for the groom?  YES!   Are we wives in the future for the Groom of our salvation.  Are we married yet?

NO! 

Where is he coming for his bride?  The Pit?

Take a long hard look at this.  I have done the same.  I was once in your camp.  No more.  I am now in the waters of life helping fish men out. 

Can you give me a point in the discussion on all my points so far? 

1) Do I have an undeniable truth here with fishing and how to fish form a boat?

2)  Did I show you MANY verses that show life emerging again from the pit / Abyss / Dark waters where there is no light?

Did a light shine in the abyss?  Did that light then say that living water was available for thirsty souls?

Hands down, God has show us both the truth. 

While I am on the subject, can you give me another point for the word truth itself. 

ALEPH MEM TAV (TRUTH in HEBREW)



What do you see.  Is the Ox a strong beast pulling us through water to the cross?  Is it a STRONG WATER MARK?

Sin in Hebrew is the word CHET.  It means missing the mark.

How do you hit the mark and receive the STRONG WATER MARK as an anti-type to missing the mark (mark of the beast)?

Is the beast offered up for sacrifice in the temple?  Is the body of Christ the temple?  Did he bear our sin on the MARK of the CROSS?

What is the TRUTH?

Can you answer my question? 

Now you can.  You now know.  Once you know, you cannot unknow. 

There is no debate.  The WORD itself is TRUTH. 

AMN is AMEN.  It means TRUE. 

AMN in Greek is LAMB

Is this the TRUE LAMB and his message of salvation?  You must be born again?

What did he mean from AMN (LET IT BE TRUE)?

In Greek and Latin:

AMN - Lamb
Amni - River of Life
Amnio - Bowl catching the blood of a sacrificed Lamb
Amnion - Sac in the mother's womb holding a baby
Amniotic - Fluid of the Womb
Amnesia - Condition of the baby and you.  You have forgotten
Amnesty - When God forgets your sin
dAMNation - When God remembers your sin.

It's a cloud of witness.  We ARE born in this process.  It's the way we are immersed in the water to RISE to NEW life. 

Resurrection happens here.  Spirit baptism is not water baptism.  We receive the Spirit when?

Christ's return.  Not before.



At Pentecost, did they receive the Spirit baptism?

Offline Red Baker

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I paused here to answer quickly, then I'll keep reading.  This passage you wrote summarizes the comments above it:

This is not the way that a profitable debate are performed.  You read one sentence and took off on a tandem of repetitious words that are foreign to the truth, and cannot be rationalized out by using only the scriptures, with each person honestly addressing his opponents points from the scriptures. I honestly addressed 1 Peter 3:19, and you completely missed it, which I know by your words when you said:

Quote
Your argument is that Jesus went into the pit to preach,
   

WHERE did I say that?  No where.  Here is what I plainly stated concerning 1 Peter 3:19.............

Quote
The plain and easy sense of the words is:  That Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, (2 Peter 2:5) and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison.  Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature; and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.  Consider this scripture to help one to see what we are saying:

1 Peter 1:11

  .  "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Just as the Spirit of Christ/God was in the prophets of old, so was the SAME Spirit in Noah a preacher of righteousness witness to those in his days who were disobedient~ when once the longsuffering of God waited to destroy those reprobates while Noah was building the ark, those same spirits were in prison, and were still at the time of Peter writing his epistle.  This is the truth of Peter's words.


I am finish talking, because I see no profit in continually, since you just want to push your strange beliefs of the new birth is nothing more than a reincarnation theory of life being recycle until all are here at the same time when Christ returns again, so that all will have the second chance to be saved and I assume you believe WILL BE saved.  There are tons of sound bites in the scriptures for men like you to play with, who care less about laboring to give them their true biblical sense, only to be use by the power of darkness to corrupt truth.  I have better things to do with my time then to waste it on chasing endless discussions that have no profit for the edification of the sheep of Jesus Christ.       

Offline Red Baker

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Spirit baptism is not water baptism.  We receive the Spirit whenChrist's return.  Not before.

BY your OWN TESTIMONY you are telling me this:  "That you are none of Christ!"

Romans 8:9

  .
  "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Offline AlephBet

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TO RED:

I read the rest of your post and you are using theory from theological commentary to complicate what is simple.  What is the purpose of baptism?  To immerse the soul in water, which you are 80%.  We are MOSTLY water.  Jesus came to do what?  FISH for men?  Where does a fisherman fish from?  The Boat.  Where are the fish? 

On this point, you must admit I have a point.  We are all fishers of men, with SOME righteous and some unrighteous.  We are here to assist fish out of water.  Can you give me 1 point here on this?

Second, The Father is the Aleph Bet and he writes the Word.  Literally, the Hebrew word Father is the same word we use for letters.  What does DNA represent?  Letters in the mother's womb making a baby. 

Can you give me another point here? Yes. 

In Genesis 1, the Ruach (Feminine) Spirit of God hovered over the waters which were void.  No life.  The Father typically adds DNA to a mother's womb to make a baby.  Was Adam created later in the narrative of Genesis Chapter 1?  Yes.  Is he called the bread of life?  Yes.  Can you make bread from seed alone, or do you need water also?  Yes again.  She is the Aleph Mem, or Hebrew word Mother.  She is the cup we pass (womb).  If you add letters of seed into a mother, do you get a Son?  If you add seed into a cup of water, do you get bread after it bakes in an oven?  Yes you do. 



We see a trend here.  Water. 

Your argument is that Jesus went into the pit to preach, but NOT bring them into the cleansing waters to be born again, even though this IS the topic of 1 Peter 3.  It is also the topic of the TOP of the chapter about wives and husbands.  Are we a bride for the groom?  YES!   Are we wives in the future for the Groom of our salvation.  Are we married yet?

NO! 

Where is he coming for his bride?  The Pit?

Take a long hard look at this.  I have done the same.  I was once in your camp.  No more.  I am now in the waters of life helping fish men out. 

Can you give me a point in the discussion on all my points so far? 

1) Do I have an undeniable truth here with fishing and how to fish form a boat?

2)  Did I show you MANY verses that show life emerging again from the pit / Abyss / Dark waters where there is no light?

Did a light shine in the abyss?  Did that light then say that living water was available for thirsty souls?

Hands down, God has show us both the truth. 

While I am on the subject, can you give me another point for the word truth itself. 

ALEPH MEM TAV (TRUTH in HEBREW)



What do you see.  Is the Ox a strong beast pulling us through water to the cross?  Is it a STRONG WATER MARK?

Sin in Hebrew is the word CHET.  It means missing the mark.

How do you hit the mark and receive the STRONG WATER MARK as an anti-type to missing the mark (mark of the beast)?

Is the beast offered up for sacrifice in the temple?  Is the body of Christ the temple?  Did he bear our sin on the MARK of the CROSS?

What is the TRUTH?

Can you answer my question? 

Now you can.  You now know.  Once you know, you cannot unknow. 

There is no debate.  The WORD itself is TRUTH. 

AMN is AMEN.  It means TRUE. 

AMN in Greek is LAMB

Is this the TRUE LAMB and his message of salvation?  You must be born again?

What did he mean from AMN (LET IT BE TRUE)?

In Greek and Latin:

AMN - Lamb
Amni - River of Life
Amnio - Bowl catching the blood of a sacrificed Lamb
Amnion - Sac in the mother's womb holding a baby
Amniotic - Fluid of the Womb
Amnesia - Condition of the baby and you.  You have forgotten
Amnesty - When God forgets your sin
dAMNation - When God remembers your sin.

It's a cloud of witness.  We ARE born in this process.  It's the way we are immersed in the water to RISE to NEW life. 

Resurrection happens here.  Spirit baptism is not water baptism.  We receive the Spirit when?

Christ's return.  Not before.


At Pentecost, did they receive the Spirit baptism?


Did they receive their Spirit body, resurrected from the material body?  No.  They received the Spirit of God upon them.

Acts 19 sandwich:

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

1 Samuel 10:10
When Saul came to the hill, a group of prophets came to meet him, and the Ruach Elohim came over him. He prophesied with them.

Exodus 35:31
Yahweh has filled Bezalel with the Ruach Elohim, making him highly skilled, resourceful, and knowledgeable in all trades.

1 Samuel 19:20
Saul sent messengers to get David. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying with Samuel serving as their leader, the Ruach Elohim came over Saul’s messengers so that they also prophesied.

1 Samuel 19:23
As he went toward the pastures at Ramah, the Ruach Elohim came over him too. He continued his journey, prophesying until he came to the pastures at Ramah.

Psalm 143:10
Teach me to do your will, because you are my Elohim. May your good Ruach lead me on level ground.

Ezekiel 8:3
It stretched out what looked like a hand and grabbed me by the hair on my head. In these visions from Elohim, the Ruach carried me between heaven and earth. He took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner courtyard of the temple. That was where an idol that stirs up God’s anger was located.

Ezekiel 11:24
In this vision from the Ruach Elohim, the Ruach lifted me and brought me to the exiles in Babylonia. Then the vision I saw left me.

Acts 19

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Ruach is Feminine.  She is the same Spirit in Genesis 1.  Elohim is Father.  Ruach is Feminine.  Together, the are the single image of God.  Let US make Adam in OUR image. 

Adam has always had his own Spirit.  Jesus received a sinless Spirit.  The power of the Spirit is not the same as the Spirit that keeps us from sin, gives us a non-corporal body and resurrects us with access to the gates of heaven.

John's baptism is water.  Jesus baptism is fire (trials) and Spirit (holiness).  Where must we be to receive these?  Bearing fruit in a harvest happens here.  No where else.  Will the ones who pierced him (the very ones John is speaking to below) be on Earth to see Christ return.  Revelation 1 states they will.

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

« Last Edit: Fri Mar 06, 2015 - 06:55:57 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

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Quote
The plain and easy sense of the words is:  That Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, (2 Peter 2:5) and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison.  Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature; and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.  Consider this scripture to help one to see what we are saying:

Are you saying that Christ went back in time to preached to the ones who refused to enter the Ark? 

Offline AlephBet

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Spirit baptism is not water baptism.  We receive the Spirit whenChrist's return.  Not before.

BY your OWN TESTIMONY you are telling me this:  "That you are none of Christ!"

Romans 8:9

  .
  "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Using your Spirit to condemn me is simple Ad Hominem.  I will not do that to you, but I will show you the truth. 

1 Peter 1

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Be Holy

13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

Where is it that you act Holy?  Where?  When will salvation come?  WHEN Christ is revealed at his coming.  When?

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Show me in scripture where this has already happened please.  Until then, echo these words in your mind.  To be brought to you when.  To be brought to you when. 

When?

13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.

Not a sound bite.  It's a truth echoed hundreds of times.  All over, even in the Old Testament.  He must come again to bring salvation to those who wait patiently. 





« Last Edit: Fri Mar 06, 2015 - 07:13:19 by AlephBet »

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At Pentecost, did they receive the Spirit baptism?

Those in Acts 2:38 did.

Quote
Did they receive their Spirit body, resurrected from the material body?  No.  They received the Spirit of God upon them.

There is no "Spirit" body.  There is, or will be, a spiritual body upon resurrection at the end of the age.  That is not anything about Holy Spirit baptism or a "Spirit" body.

Quote
Acts 19 sandwich:

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

I think you have missed the key point in this passage.  The key point is to be found in verses 2 and 3 in Paul's question and the disciples answer.  Paul asked a direct question,  "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"  They answered with,  "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."  We next have the very crucial question from Paul, "Into what then were you baptized?"  The reason for this question by Paul should be obvious to all who are not predisposed against it.  It is in baptism that one receives the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).  Since they hadn't even known about the Holy Spirit, Paul's question about their baptism was the only one expected.  And he corrected that immediately by baptizing them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in which they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  He went one step further.  He laid his hands on them to give them the power of the Holy Spirit to perform the miraculous.  Two separate acts by Paul; two separate rolls of the Holy Spirit; indwelling and empowering.


Offline Jaime

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Yep

Offline Red Baker

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Are you saying that Christ went back in time to preached to the ones who refused to enter the Ark?

No that's not what I said.  Look at the scriptures again:

Quote
1 Peter 3:18-22

  .  "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." 

I highlighted what I wanted you to take notice of, so as to help you to see what exactly I said, and it was this:

Quote
The plain and easy sense of the words is:  That Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, (2 Peter 2:5) and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; ..............1 Peter 1:11

  .  "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Just as the Spirit of Christ/God was in the prophets of old, so was the SAME Spirit in Noah a preacher of righteousness witness to those in his days who were disobedient~ when once the longsuffering of God waited to destroy those reprobates while Noah was building the ark, those same spirits were in prison, and were still at the time of Peter writing his epistle.  This is the truth of Peter's words.   

All of the spirits of the wicked are in prison now in bondage to sin and the devil, while they live.... and even after death where they cease to live, in the same sense that the righteous do after the death of the body, until the judgement of the great day of God Almighty, when they shall be judged and cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.  While they live in this life~ God's Spirit strives with man, until the day appointed for their destruction, just as in the days of Noah. Genesis 6:3

Offline Red Baker

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Yep

And all of God's children said: "Yep"!