GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Baptism is Literal Rebirth into the Waters of Life - New Person, not Soul  (Read 1311 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
At Pentecost, did they receive the Spirit baptism?

Those in Acts 2:38 did.

Quote
Did they receive their Spirit body, resurrected from the material body?  No.  They received the Spirit of God upon them.

There is no "Spirit" body.  There is, or will be, a spiritual body upon resurrection at the end of the age.  That is not anything about Holy Spirit baptism or a "Spirit" body.

Quote
Acts 19 sandwich:

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

I think you have missed the key point in this passage.  The key point is to be found in verses 2 and 3 in Paul's question and the disciples answer.  Paul asked a direct question,  "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"  They answered with,  "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."  We next have the very crucial question from Paul, "Into what then were you baptized?"  The reason for this question by Paul should be obvious to all who are not predisposed against it.  It is in baptism that one receives the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).  Since they hadn't even known about the Holy Spirit, Paul's question about their baptism was the only one expected.  And he corrected that immediately by baptizing them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in which they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  He went one step further.  He laid his hands on them to give them the power of the Holy Spirit to perform the miraculous.  Two separate acts by Paul; two separate rolls of the Holy Spirit; indwelling and empowering.


POINT 1:

Receiving the Spirit of God was nothing new.  I pointed this out to you from the Old Testament passages when the Ruach came upon individuals to prophecy.  Immersion into the Spirit is nothing new as a manifestation of God's Spirit on man.  There are five baptisms listed in scripture.  Earth (Dust / Clay), Air (breath), Water (baptism), Fire (Trials) and Spirit (holiness).  Salvation from the material world is the key point we are discussing.  Salvation form the Earthly domain is something that is witnessed by all eyes.  ALL.  ALL must be here to see the Son in his glory.  Why? 

POINT 2.  This may be new to you, so don't judge me before you read all the references I list.  Consider what I am saying.  It makes salvation MORE beautiful.  It gives reason to the flood and rebirth.  It gives reason to Yahweh becoming a man, being baptized himself.  Apart from THIS knowledge, you cannot understand why Yahweh was baptized into Joshua (Zechariah 3). 

Again, don't judge me for informing you.  See the beauty in the story.  It's more powerful than we have known to this day. 

The mystery tells us something that has yet to be realized by most Christians.  Not only did he pay for our sin, but his own.  Not Christ himself, but Yahweh.  Jesus was made new by God, the FIRSTFRUIT of what we become by the SAME process.  Yahweh was the one shedding blood in the Old Testament, using one nation against the wishes of Elohim and proclaiming himself God with none beside.  He made Himself Israel's God.  Elohim wished for blessing to the Rainbow (all nations). 

In Genesis 9, Elohim does two things.  He tells us NOT to shed blood.  DO NOT is a command.  He then tells us that blessing would go to ALL nations (Rainbow) and generations of life.  ALL.  Not one nation.  What did Yahweh do?  He selected ONE nation to rule as THEIR Elohim. 

Before you doubt what I am saying, read Genesis 8 and 9 for yourself with the NOG (names of God Bible) from Bible Gateway.  Your eyes will be opened.  OPENED from what?  The clouds he comes IN.  Clouds are the word Neph, or covering of the light.  Once he parts the covering (Nephilim are clouded Spirits), he then reveals himself.  As what?  Redeemer, himself overcoming Satan.  Who made Satan?  Who will conquer Satan for good?  The one who made him.  Why will the mourn?  For good reason, but DON"T hound him.  You'll see why later. 

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;

    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Will the generation that pierced Him be there when he returns?  I have yet to hear an answer to this.  This is backed by Job's statement:

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
    and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
    with my own eyes—I, and not another.

    How my heart yearns within me!

This isn't just a trouble being worked out in Humans.  It is the image of Humans that is caused by the Son's image.  It's the Son with the trouble first (noted by Job in the next verse below).  But, don't hound him about the fact he fell.  Who fell?  Adam, the Son of God.  Jesus is the first Adam (Genesis 1) and the last Adam (paying the penalty on the cross.

Job finishes out this topic by revealing who the Son of God is (Redeemer).  He's Adam.  Luke 3 tells you this in the very last verse.  Here is Job's continuation to the Redeemer narrative from Job 19: 

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
    since the root of the trouble lies in him,’

29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
    for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
    and then you will know that there is judgment.

What trouble and penalty did he pay?  If you miss why he hung on the cross for OUR sins, you miss the reason for sin in the first place.  The Son was MADE sin from the foundation.  He was a willing sacrifice for us.  Apart from the Sin, no new life would have come.  It's the reason for this verse below:  Sin causes shedding of blood.  Yahweh was the Adversary.  Satan the accuser.  We are to overcome the Ego to rule (Judge by law) and the Conscience of the accuser (Satan silenced). 

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans his blood will be shed,
        because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Did Yahweh shed blood in the Old Testament continually, using his own nation?  Who was speaking in this verse above?  Elohim (Father) from Genesis 1.  Yahweh is NOT Elohim.  His words came in Chapter 8.  He was Yahweh Elohim in Chapter 2 and 3, then lost his Elohim title by chapter 4 after the fall.  Did the Father shed blood?  Of course not.  God is Love.  Did the Father make Satan?  Of course not, Satan was made by the Son's desire to rule his own Garden.  Who did make Satan?

Genesis 3

3 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made. He asked the woman, “Did Elohim really say, ‘You must never eat the fruit of any tree in the garden’?”

If you don't use the Names of God Bible, you are blind to the lie theology tells about Elohim, Ruach Elohim, Yahweh and Satan.  ALL powers, rulers and authorities were put into the Son of God.  Even Satan.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Why is this point significant?  The Son was made sin (Fell).  He had to.  God requires him to then pay his own bloodshed as Yahweh, overcoming the law he had made.  Did Yahweh kill babies, men, women and children?  Did he rip them out of their wombs?  Yes, his nation did under his own orders. 

How do we see the Day of the Lord as the baby Christ?  Yahweh promised a Day of the Lord that included war.  Why has it not happened yet?  He was the enemy he created.  Jesus learned the truth.  Forgive enemies and make peace.  For good reason.  Who made Satan?  Who planned to make war on Heaven?

Did he plan to make war on Heaven?

Isaiah 24

21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
    and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
    and locked in prison.
        After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
    The sun will be ashamed,
        because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
            on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.

                He will be glorious
    in the presence of his respected leaders.

Did his plans work out?  No.  He paid the price instead by being humbled in baptism.  He set the example for us. the made proclamation to us in the pit.  Who caused the sin?  The same one that made the plan to save us in the water.  He had compassion on the people he had created.  Satan is his making.  Satan is his own enemy to overcome. 

Until the head overcomes, the body can't.  Until the groom overcomes, the bride is weak and unsafe.  Who overcome Satan?

We are in the waters being saved now. 

Who was Yahweh?

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Why didn't Jesus know that the Lord / Satan / Powers / Rulers / Authorities were in and through himself?

AMN is AMEN - TRUE

AMN in Greek and Latin

AMN - Lamb
Amni - River of Life
Amnio - Bowl catching the blood of a sacrificed Lamb
Amnion - Sac in the mother's womb holding a baby
Amniotic - Fluid of the Womb
Amnesia - Condition of the baby and you.  You have forgotten
Amnesty - When God forgets your sin
dAMNation - When God remembers your sin.

Until he reached the Right hand of the Father, he did not know who he was.  To be fully human, he had to be absent knowledge (Naked / Arum).  Just like us, we can't know until we are brought back up.  We then know who we are. 

Who was the Son judging as his Yahweh Angel?  Himself.  Why?  We are him. 

Who do we judge as the body of Christ if we judge others?  Ourselves.  Why? 

1 Corinthians 10

 17 Because there is one loaf, we are one body, although we are many individuals. All of us share one loaf.

Colossians 1 tells us that ALL things are in and through the Son.  He cannot judge himself. He cannot disown himself. 

The trick for us is to take the name.  Rise, just as he had to do by being made sin for us.  We cannot be worse than Yahweh.  We cannot be better than Christ. 

Self-Righteousness and Wickedness are the same.  Humility is Love for others. 

It's the point.  Yahweh had to learn it.  So do we.






Christian Forums and Message Board


Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
I can agree that 'Baptism is the beginning of rebirth, beginning with the 'washing away of sin.....
but that is a way off from 'literal rebirth. Next comes a 'change of clean Raiment, dressed in white, 'learning Obedience and 'practicing Righteousness.
That is the simple teaching of the Bible, not wandering in the wilderness again, confusing people with endless comparisons.

Man returns from the GRAVE - not from hell. Erroniously both these terms are sometimes expressed as PIT.

No temple is raised until Christ returns.  3 days is 3000 years.  It's been six days (6000 years).  Man is made on the sixth day.  The seventh is rest.  Has Christ returned to usher in that final 1000 years of life?  No.  Does he rule from Earth for 1000 years?  With his Saints? 

Has it happened?

No.  We patiently wait.

Hebrews 9

28 Likewise, Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of humanity, and after that he will appear a second time. This time he will not deal with sin, but he will save those who eagerly wait for him.

Where do we wait? In Heaven wearing white robes?

Revelation 6

10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Holy and true Master, how long before you judge and take revenge on those living on earth who shed our blood?” 11 Each of the souls was given a white robe. They were told to rest a little longer until all their coworkers, the other Christians, would be killed as they had been killed.

Are the ones who pierced Christ on Earth to see him return?

Revelation 1

7 Look! He is coming in the clouds.
    Every eye will see him,
        even those who pierced him.

    Every tribe on earth will mourn because of him.
        This is true. Amen.

I will keep asking until someone realized what I am saying.  Baptism is the way back to life.  Live is Christ, the Way and Truth to it. 



Christian Forums and Message Board


Buster D Body Crab

  • Guest

....It's the point.  Yahweh had to learn it.  So do we.

I'd ask you why I should read all else you have to add to this debate when you first see God as other than the scriptures say he is?

God is Omniscient and Supreme over all that exists or ever shall and is unchanging and eternal. God therefore need not learn anything at all.

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile

....It's the point.  Yahweh had to learn it.  So do we.

I'd ask you why I should read all else you have to add to this debate when you first see God as other than the scriptures say he is?

God is Omniscient and Supreme over all that exists or ever shall and is unchanging and eternal. God therefore need not learn anything at all.

I know how you feel.  I felt the same as I was realized the lies we have been told by the Experts.  It took me 10 years of seeking and questioning to see the truth.  Once I did, it was hard to receive.  Once I was able to see it clearly, it became beautiful.  It's amazing to see how God didn't even spare his own Son.  By this, we know that we are okay.  Self-righteousness and wickedness are the same sin.  Humility is the key to overcoming the adversary / accuser. 

11:52

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

They keys to knowldge are first the letters.  The 'Experts in the Law' know this.  Secondly, the keys are the names.  Why is LORD the word used for all 72 names?  Why is God used for Elohim?  Why is Spirit of God used for Ruach Elohim (Feminine image to Elohim)?

Theology is founded on lies told by the "Experts."  By listening, the Priests today have been deceived and don't even know.   

Does the book of Revelation (future of our day and age) say that we ARE deceived as the nations occupying the Earth?  Yes.  Did Daniel lock the Scroll?

Daniel 12

2 Many sleeping in the ground will wake up. Some will wake up to live forever, but others will wake up to be ashamed and disgraced forever. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness on the horizon. Those who lead many people to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.

4 “But you, Daniel, keep these words secret, and seal the book until the end times. Many will travel everywhere, and knowledge will grow.”

Your question is this: "I'd ask you why I should read all else you have to add to this debate when you first see God as other than the scriptures say he is?"

Don't listen to me.  Listen to the Word.  Know the Aleph Bet (Letters) as you know the Word.  The letters have meaning.  Once you discover them, you know who the Son is by the names.  Read the Names of God Bible (NOG).  It's the key they hid from us. 

Once you read it by the names, you know that the ALEPH BET (FATHER) wrote the WORD.  The Son was pointing you to the Father.  We have defined the words incorrectly, leading to incorrect presuppositions. 

If you defend Yahweh, you miss the point of the Lord's baptism.  He had to be made new.  Why?  He was made sin for us. 

Is Adonal the Lord of the Old Testament?

Genesis 20:4
Abimelech hadn’t come near her, so he asked, “Adonay, will you destroy a nation even if it’s innocent?

Was Jesus Adonai?  LORD.  Are the two LORDS different?  Yes.  One was the opposite image of God (mirror).  Christ raised to the other side of the image and became one with the Father.  Holy.   Who made Christ holy?  Who spoke to us through Christ?

John 12

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

We can never say we have heard Jesus speak.  We can only say we have head the word of the Father.  There is a difference.  One is not the other, although you have been told differently.  What does the scripture say?

John 8

So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

Who is the LORD of the SON (JESUS)?  Good question.  It's answered in the Father's word through the Son.  The Father taught HIS Son.  This means he was Arum (Naked) to begin with.  No knowledge.  Yahweh is the Ego of Adam above.  Adam is the human below.  Parallel.

Luke 18

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

By this, can we restate the above sentence?

Why do you call me GOD?  No one is GOD--Except God alone.

"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'" (John 14:28).

Have you ever heard me say my theology apart from verses, letters and words to back it up?

Can you look at the actions of Yahweh in 1 Samuel and 2nd Samuel, calling Yahweh good?  Killing is not good.  Division of nations against each other is not good, or a sign of the Christ forgiving enemies.   Did Yahweh make Satan?

Genesis 3

3 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made. He asked the woman, “Did Elohim really say, ‘You must never eat the fruit of any tree in the garden’?”

Didn't the Father (Elohim) really say...?

Check the next chapter.  Did Yahweh Elohim become Yahweh, losing his title as creator?

Genesis 4

4 Adam made love to his wife Eve. She became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “I have gotten the man that Yahweh promised.” 2 Then she gave birth to another child, Abel, Cain’s brother. Abel was a shepherd, and Cain was a farmer.

3 Later Cain brought some crops from the land as an offering to Yahweh. 4 Abel also brought some choice parts of the firstborn animals from his flock. Yahweh approved of Abel and his offering, 5 but he didn’t approve of Cain and his offering. So Cain became very angry and was disappointed. 6 Then Yahweh asked Cain, “Why are you angry, and why do you look disappointed? 7 If you do well, won’t you be accepted? But if you don’t do well, sin is lying outside your door ready to attack. It wants to control you, but you must master it.”

In Genesis 5, Elohim took Enoch.  Yahweh cursed the ground.  LINK

I know it's a great deal to read, but follow the names in this next passage.  Who did the Animals follow into the Ark?  In pairs as Elohim said, or in sevens as Yahweh said?  What happened directly before this?  The Sons of Elohim and the daughters of men.  Follow to the flood below:

In Genesis 6

 19 Bring two of every living creature into the ship in order to keep them alive with you. They must be male and female. 20 Two of every type of bird, every type of domestic animal, and every type of creature that crawls on the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 Take every kind of food that can be eaten and store it. It will be food for you and the animals.”

22 Noah did this. He did everything that Elohim had commanded him.

---Two of every kind.  Elohim said this. 

Genesis 7

7 Yahweh said to Noah, “Go into the ship with your whole family because I have seen that you alone are righteous among the people of today. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal (a male and a female of each) and one pair of every kind of unclean[a] animal (a male and a female). 3 Also, take seven pairs of every kind of bird (a male and a female of each) to preserve animal life all over the earth after the flood. 4 In seven days I will send rain to the earth for 40 days and 40 nights. I will wipe off the face of the earth every living creature that I have made.”

---Seven pairs!!!!

5 So Noah did everything that Yahweh commanded him.

6 Noah was 600 years old when the flood came to the earth. 7 Noah, his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives went into the ship to escape the floodwaters. 8 Clean and unclean animals, birds, and creatures that crawl on the ground 9 came to Noah to go into the ship in pairs (a male and female of each) as Elohim had commanded Noah.

You now know a different story.  The only reason you now know what Yahweh tried to pull was because you see the names.  Seven pairs would have overturned the boat.

Who did the animals follow?  Yahweh?  No. 
Read Ezekiel 28 from the NOG.  Who is the Guardian Cherub?

Read Ruth. Who is the Guardian Redeemer?

Ruth is the refined Eve.  Adam is the refined Yahweh.  Adam First is Genesis 1.  Adam Last Jesus, baptized into new life. 

1 Corinthians 15

45 This is what Scripture says: “The first man, Adam, became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Will the authority and dominion of the Son of God be removed and handed back to the Father?

 24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.

Parallel to every ruler, authority and power:

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Again, don't listen to me.  Listen to the Word I show you.  In context, the mystery can be solved.  I will not listen to theology.  You can condemn me for it, but I choose instead to find the Father (Aleph Bet) from the Word (SON).  Jesus told us how.

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Overcome the Adversary (Law / Yahweh / Ego) and the Accuser (Satan / Conscience).  Jesus did.  Even Yahweh did.

Zechariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

You find it hard to argue my perspective because my view leaves no contradiction or paradox.  Theology is famous for this, acting like science to create theory.  I am showing what the word says by the word AND letters. 

The Father has a hidden voice.  He IS the Hidden God.





« Last Edit: Fri Mar 06, 2015 - 19:24:51 by AlephBet »

Buster D Body Crab

  • Guest
OK, my mind just exploded.
That's a lot to take in for this man who is new to all this. Including having a Bible in his possession for the first time not that long ago and only due to it being a gift.

That is all creating a visual for someone very well versed in the scriptures both old and new.
I'll have to get back to you after I've fully researched all that you have there.
Thank you for sharing that very detailed point of view.

Where did you glean this knowledge from? The Tanakh? Or is there an apologetics article or book that you know of that carries this and more?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my question.

Christian Forums and Message Board


Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
OK, my mind just exploded.
That's a lot to take in for this man who is new to all this. Including having a Bible in his possession for the first time not that long ago and only due to it being a gift.

That is all creating a visual for someone very well versed in the scriptures both old and new.
I'll have to get back to you after I've fully researched all that you have there.
Thank you for sharing that very detailed point of view.

Where did you glean this knowledge from? The Tanakh? Or is there an apologetics article or book that you know of that carries this and more?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my question.


My perspective comes form years of seeking.  It comes from researching the letters and words of Hebrew.  It comes from learning the Seven Rules of Hillel.  A quick Google search can show you.  I also have a linked back resource here.  LINK

Being new to faith, I would recommend that you not listen to theology-even mine.  That is, unless you first decide for yourself that the Spirit can teach you as the primary source.  I learned what I know one way and one way only.  I faced my fears and debated theology for myself.  I did it in Atheist forums.  Why?  They hold me up to the wall better than anyone.  The only way to reward is suffering.  The only way to suffer the most is to have an enemy to face.  I tried Christian forums.  No way to overcome there. 

Wisdom is developed by trials.  Find a way to suffer on purpose.  If you work for others by service, you will suffer for reward.  God rewards those who walk with him (least of these).  Another way is to ask for wisdom.  James 1 is the way to do this.  What do you get?  Suffering.  Wisdom comes one way. 

Treat me as an enemy.  Fight my theology.  Once you do, you will come to know which rises.  Only one can win.  God.  Both of us learn along the way. I did this with countless Atheists.  The primary reason an Atheists cannot believe is Yahweh.  They cannot reconcile his bloodshed and arrogance against that of Christ and his love.  I do not blame them for this.  I blame theology for missing the patience of God with baptism and his own Son.  By missing the point of rising to new life, we forget that Jesus had to be fully human.  Born again.  Many times.  I have won many of them to truth by showing it. 

When we last meet him in scriptures, he is Joshua  (Yeshua in Hebrew) being clothed by Yahweh in Zacheriah 3.  What was the High Priest of the temple being prepared for?  Reception of Yahweh's Spirit into a kinsman.  He is the Lord of Hosts.  He was preparing himself to do what he had never done before.  Become a man.  He formed Adam for this purpose.  He also formed Eve as the weak nature of himself to be refined as Mary in the first century. 

God humbled a willing Son. 

You and I are the same.  We cannot know who or what we are here.  We must discover it.  Christ then comes to shine a light, revealing what it hits. 

Suffering opens the eyes and ears.  Yeast makes bread rise.  Only one theology that is correct.  God's theology.  We are ALL unorthodox here until we meet the only orthodox theology possible.  The one God shares with us in due time.  We are then of one common understanding.  Not until.  UltraUnOrthodox until we are confirmed to the image.   

We can never agree, but we can show each other what we have been shown by God.  Truth is known when what we already know is awakened within.  It's already there.  It always has been.  Once you know, you cannot unknow. 

Truth matches the light revealing it. 
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 06, 2015 - 21:00:05 by AlephBet »

Buster D Body Crab

  • Guest
Timely post that. I was earlier saying in another thread that I'm trying to reconcile a pastor, John Piper, giving a sermon about Christians being called to suffering. Having known cancer survivors and those who were not so lucky.

When you said you honed your knowledge by debating atheists I take it you had a great deal of ammunition , or knowledge, going into those forums? Or did you present as an atheist and then debate them as they argued theology and particularly Christian theology?

I will say yours is a very unique perspective that I haven't happened on in my short venture into this faith.  It is intriguing your perspective given what I have surmised thus far is not at all similar. Yours appears to go beyond the writing on the page if you will.

Thanks again. We'll talk more I'm sure.

Offline Charlie24

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
  • For by grace through faith you are saved!
    • View Profile
At Pentecost, did they receive the Spirit baptism?

Those in Acts 2:38 did.

Quote
Did they receive their Spirit body, resurrected from the material body?  No.  They received the Spirit of God upon them.

There is no "Spirit" body.  There is, or will be, a spiritual body upon resurrection at the end of the age.  That is not anything about Holy Spirit baptism or a "Spirit" body.

Quote
Acts 19 sandwich:

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

I think you have missed the key point in this passage.  The key point is to be found in verses 2 and 3 in Paul's question and the disciples answer.  Paul asked a direct question,  "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"  They answered with,  "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."  We next have the very crucial question from Paul, "Into what then were you baptized?"  The reason for this question by Paul should be obvious to all who are not predisposed against it.  It is in baptism that one receives the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).  Since they hadn't even known about the Holy Spirit, Paul's question about their baptism was the only one expected.  And he corrected that immediately by baptizing them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in which they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  He went one step further.  He laid his hands on them to give them the power of the Holy Spirit to perform the miraculous.  Two separate acts by Paul; two separate rolls of the Holy Spirit; indwelling and empowering.

Nope! I think it's you who have missed the "key point" 4WD. You need to come out of that water tank, it's effecting your correct analysis.

The point is that these men thought they were saved by Johns baptism. Paul corrected them by telling them there was no salvation in that baptism, the purpose was to point to the One who could save,  believing in Jesus Christ. That's when they were saved, when they realized they should believe on Christ, and did believe. Then they were water baptized, and when Paul laid his hands on them they received the anointing of the Spirit to speak in tongues.

Receiving the indwelling Spirit has nothing to do with water.

Eph. 1:12-13
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
 
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

No water involved 4WD!

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Timely post that. I was earlier saying in another thread that I'm trying to reconcile a pastor, John Piper, giving a sermon about Christians being called to suffering. Having known cancer survivors and those who were not so lucky.

When you said you honed your knowledge by debating atheists I take it you had a great deal of ammunition , or knowledge, going into those forums? Or did you present as an atheist and then debate them as they argued theology and particularly Christian theology?

I will say yours is a very unique perspective that I haven't happened on in my short venture into this faith.  It is intriguing your perspective given what I have surmised thus far is not at all similar. Yours appears to go beyond the writing on the page if you will.

Thanks again. We'll talk more I'm sure.


Back in 1996, they nearly destroyed my faith on IRC (old school forum).  I came in as a Christian and came out with doubt.  From that doubt, God planted seeds.  Slowly, I returned to the chat and fourms.  Again, my faith was tested, but stronger.  Over and over again.  Eventually, the tables turned.  There was no way to challenge the truth that matched the light within.  They cannot argue with me on their own foundation of hatred for Yahweh.  I show them how he was made new.  From this, they come to realize that they cannot find a reason to hate God any longer.  The real God they longed for all along was the God of Love (Elohim).  Yahweh then can be seen for what he was?  What he IS (Christ) and what he IS TO COME (God ALMIGHTY!).  How can he be God?  The image and reflection matches.

Can you lose your salvation?  Can I lose mine by my theology?  Can anyone here lose their salvation by their own lack of knowledge and nakedness before the light of truth?

I love this quote form John McArthur:

"Let me put it another way. If you could lose your salvation, you would. You understand that? If you could, you would. If it's possible, it will happen. It has to be. If any part of my eternal salvation depends upon my power and ability and commitment and righteousness, I won't get there. Think about Adam. Adam who had no sinful tendencies, Adam living in a perfect world wouldn't know sin. No sin at all. Adam with no sin at all and no sinful tendencies inside couldn't keep himself in a right relationship of obedience and love to God. How would we think we could in a fallen world with fallen natures? And the more mature you are as a Christian, the more spiritually minded you are, the more righteous you are, the more sanctified you are, the more wretched you know you are, right? The Apostle Paul in Romans 7, "O wretched man that I am," that's the statement of a very mature Christian."

Why?  Self-righteousness is the same as Wickedness.  Wash Yahweh self-righteous?  Yes.  We see him as wretched if we are honest.  Those who fear him have not overcome him.  He is the Law that accuses. 

Do I strike you as without fear of the Lord?  GOOD!  I have overcome.  How?

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In Ancient times, the Sons of the Landowner would be given to a trusted relative.

Job 1

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

If you are a Son of a Landowner, then who are your guardians?  They are on a council.  They decided the fate of Job.  What each of them could not know is who they were judging.  We are them.  They are us.  They have learned from us, just as we have learned from them.

You and I are the same. 

We are under the Guardian's Rule.  He is the Adversary and we are the accused (Satan is the accuser).  Why are they given this power? 

Genesis 4

6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

What is the job of the guardian?

To raise the Sons in the harvest.  What are we gleaning in the harvest?  Seed. 

An Ear is a seed.  Ears must open. Even in English, I can show you this.

Add a Hey to Ear.



HEAR

Add a Tav to Hear



HearT (Soil for the seed).  Glean away.  Plant and harvest.  The Guardian is watching.  Better do it right!

How do you overcome?  What's planted in the heart?  TRUTH!  Once you know, you change. 

Where do you behold the truth?  Move the Hey to the end, revealing where the soil is to glean the seeds:

EartH

I love to open blind eyes if a person HEARS ME.  Ears open in soil.  I think you have good soil.  Look again.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Guardian is a rough task master.  Yes.  But, he is amazingly effective.  We become new SEED!  We then plant in new ground above.  Fruit must first fall form the tree that bears it. 

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with[ water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Can you see it?  Wisdom from trials in the waters of reality.  Fire burns.  It also makes bread bake and rise.  Spirit is the mind made holy.  Water puts out fire.  Produce fruit to rise to new ground after the harvest. 

When is the harvest?  In flood season.  When do you plant new seed?  In the summer.  When does dew fall?  Morning.  When is it distilled?  When the Sun rises. 

I could keep going, but I think this debate has been won by God. 

I'm not him.  I do like his name.  Aleph Bet.  By it, I love the Word! 






Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
At Pentecost, did they receive the Spirit baptism?

Those in Acts 2:38 did.

Quote
Did they receive their Spirit body, resurrected from the material body?  No.  They received the Spirit of God upon them.

There is no "Spirit" body.  There is, or will be, a spiritual body upon resurrection at the end of the age.  That is not anything about Holy Spirit baptism or a "Spirit" body.

Quote
Acts 19 sandwich:

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

I think you have missed the key point in this passage.  The key point is to be found in verses 2 and 3 in Paul's question and the disciples answer.  Paul asked a direct question,  "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"  They answered with,  "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."  We next have the very crucial question from Paul, "Into what then were you baptized?"  The reason for this question by Paul should be obvious to all who are not predisposed against it.  It is in baptism that one receives the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).  Since they hadn't even known about the Holy Spirit, Paul's question about their baptism was the only one expected.  And he corrected that immediately by baptizing them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in which they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  He went one step further.  He laid his hands on them to give them the power of the Holy Spirit to perform the miraculous.  Two separate acts by Paul; two separate rolls of the Holy Spirit; indwelling and empowering.

Nope! I think it's you who have missed the "key point" 4WD. You need to come out of that water tank, it's effecting your correct analysis.

The point is that these men thought they were saved by Johns baptism. Paul corrected them by telling them there was no salvation in that baptism, the purpose was to point to the One who could save,  believing in Jesus Christ. That's when they were saved, when they realized they should believe on Christ, and did believe. Then they were water baptized, and when Paul laid his hands on them they received the anointing of the Spirit to speak in tongues.

Receiving the indwelling Spirit has nothing to do with water.

Eph. 1:12-13
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
 
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

No water involved 4WD!

I like your point in that the Spirit is necessary as a baptism.  Fire is also necessary.  So is Air (Breath).  So is Water (Baptism).  So is Earth (Clay). 

What is the mark of the beast?  Carbon (6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons).  It is the mark of our commerce system (OIL / Petrol Dollar) and the fruit in the middle of the Garden. 

Genesis 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

I can say this all day long, but let's produce proof.

Air (Breath) is Nitrogen (777) and Oxygen (888).

Fluorine is 999.  It is produced from uranium enrichment.  We put it in the WATER and TOOTH PASTE.  When it mixes with Carbon, we get fluorocarbons. What do the fluorocarbons do to the breath of God?  Will we die without breath?  How is our world going to end?  We inherit a rain forest.  We leave it as a field of burning weeds. 

Why add it to the human carbon?  It's almost like God is showing us something in the image. 

666
999

If you know anything about 777, you know God's heptadic structure to the Bible.  If you know anything about 888, then you know what the mark of Christ is by Hebrew letters.  Do the research. 

What tries to rise above God?

What is below God?

Where is baptism?  Earth, Air, Water, Fire and the Spirit after the beast is burned away.  Water puts out fire. 

The more God has shown me, the more you can see with opened eyes.  He did the same for me. 

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Will water consume the Earth next, or fire?

Trials are coming.  The coming wrath is approaching. 

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;

    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Where will the leaders John spoke to be in the end times (TODAY!)?  Where?  Where do you see with eyes?  Who are those that pierced Christ?  Has he come yet with fire and wrath?

John is the Water.  Jesus is the Spirit and Fire. 

Know the letters to know the word.  Know the symbols to know what they mean in root position.  Just like words.  They can be read. 

« Last Edit: Fri Mar 06, 2015 - 21:51:54 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Yep

And all of God's children said: "Yep"!

Page Four (NEW PREMISE)


Pride will tell you to guard your theology and cling to it, even if you are incorrect.  Truth will tell you to humble your pride and simply look at what is written for the truth.  Only God can be correct in his Word.

If you would be willing to move on from the first topic of 1 Peter 3, then let's move to a new line of reasoning based on the bride of Christ and the body of the bride.  Where is the body (church) today?  What is their purpose?  To do good works.  Where?  Who does the body minister to?  Is the body growing in numbers each day?  Who is the body working for and where is it located? 

Premise 1:  We are the body of Christ.  He is the Head.  We are the bride and he is the groom.  Has he come from the bride yet?  Where is the body.  1 Corinthians 12 and other places speak of the church as the body.  Has he come for the bride?

Premise 2: 2 Corinthians 5 then outlines where the body is.  We groan in anticipation of the event.  What event?  The 2nd coming.  Have we moved on to where the head is individually, or do we move as a body? 

If you carefully consider 1 Corinthians 12 and 2 Corinthians 5, you will know that what I have said of rebirth and resurrection is correct.  We are being conformed to the image.  This takes time.  The temple does not raise until the 1000 years are over.  3 days is 3,,000 years.  The sign of Jonah is emerging from the belly of the fish.   Jesus is the fisher of men.  Until we are conformed to the image, we cannot transcend.  In a moment.  In the twinkling of an eye, we will ALL be transformed.  Not individually.  ALL at the same time. 

Where are we until this event?

The entire topic of Paul in many of his letters is the work the body will be doing while he is away building the future home for the bride.  The body is not at the right hand of God.  It is below, working in the waters to fish out men.  We know this.  Paul tells us how it works.  We are born again into the water for work.  We are in the vineyard working.  We are ALL paid the same wage.  We all end work at the same time, but begin work at different times.  All the parables of Christ lead us to the same conclusion.  The kingdom of God is the work to bring others to the saving knowledge of a future resurrection.  Salvation comes when Christ returns for the bride.  Not before. 

Where is the bride until then?  Is the New Jerusalem on Earth yet?  Then where are the nations?





« Last Edit: Sun Mar 08, 2015 - 07:34:43 by AlephBet »

Offline 4WD

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4814
  • Manna: 81
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Yep

And all of God's children said: "Yep"!

Page Four (NEW PREMISE)


If you would be willing to move on from the first topic of 1 Peter 3, then let's move to a new line of reasoning. 

Premise 1:  We are the body of Christ.  He is the Head.  We are the bride and he is the groom.  Has he come from the bride yet?  Where is the body.  1 Corinthians 12 and other places speak of the church as the body.  Has he come for the bride?

Premise 2: 2 Corinthians 5 then outlines where the body is.  We groan in anticipation of the event.  What event?  The 2nd coming.  Have we moved on to where the head is individually, or do we move as a body? 

If you carefully consider 1 Corinthians 12 and 2 Corinthians 5, you will know that what I have said of rebirth and resurrection is correct.  We are being conformed to the image.  This takes time.  The temple does not raise until the 1000 years are over.  3 days is 3,,000 years.  The sign of Jonah is emerging from the belly of the fish.   Jesus is the fisher of men.  Until we are conformed to the image, we cannot transcend.  In a moment.  In the twinkling of an eye, we will ALL be transformed.  Not individually.  ALL at the same time. 

Where are we until this event?

A premise is an assumption, an assertion, a thesis, a postulate.  A question is not a premise.

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Yep

And all of God's children said: "Yep"!

Page Four (NEW PREMISE)


If you would be willing to move on from the first topic of 1 Peter 3, then let's move to a new line of reasoning. 

Premise 1:  We are the body of Christ.  He is the Head.  We are the bride and he is the groom.  Has he come from the bride yet?  Where is the body.  1 Corinthians 12 and other places speak of the church as the body.  Has he come for the bride?

Premise 2: 2 Corinthians 5 then outlines where the body is.  We groan in anticipation of the event.  What event?  The 2nd coming.  Have we moved on to where the head is individually, or do we move as a body? 

If you carefully consider 1 Corinthians 12 and 2 Corinthians 5, you will know that what I have said of rebirth and resurrection is correct.  We are being conformed to the image.  This takes time.  The temple does not raise until the 1000 years are over.  3 days is 3,,000 years.  The sign of Jonah is emerging from the belly of the fish.   Jesus is the fisher of men.  Until we are conformed to the image, we cannot transcend.  In a moment.  In the twinkling of an eye, we will ALL be transformed.  Not individually.  ALL at the same time. 

Where are we until this event?

A premise is an assumption, an assertion, a thesis, a postulate.  A question is not a premise.

Premise 1:  We are the body of Christ. 

Premise 2: 2 Corinthians 5 then outlines where the body is.  We groan in anticipation of the event.

We are the body.  The body is here. 



Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Yep

And all of God's children said: "Yep"!

Page Four (NEW PREMISE)


If you would be willing to move on from the first topic of 1 Peter 3, then let's move to a new line of reasoning. 

Premise 1:  We are the body of Christ.  He is the Head.  We are the bride and he is the groom.  Has he come from the bride yet?  Where is the body.  1 Corinthians 12 and other places speak of the church as the body.  Has he come for the bride?

Premise 2: 2 Corinthians 5 then outlines where the body is.  We groan in anticipation of the event.  What event?  The 2nd coming.  Have we moved on to where the head is individually, or do we move as a body? 

If you carefully consider 1 Corinthians 12 and 2 Corinthians 5, you will know that what I have said of rebirth and resurrection is correct.  We are being conformed to the image.  This takes time.  The temple does not raise until the 1000 years are over.  3 days is 3,,000 years.  The sign of Jonah is emerging from the belly of the fish.   Jesus is the fisher of men.  Until we are conformed to the image, we cannot transcend.  In a moment.  In the twinkling of an eye, we will ALL be transformed.  Not individually.  ALL at the same time. 

Where are we until this event?

A premise is an assumption, an assertion, a thesis, a postulate.  A question is not a premise.

1 Cor 15

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Please speak to the premise based on the verse above?

Then, continue based on the verses below:

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The body of Christ is below.  We are here now.  Baptism is the mechanism of rebirth to a new person, but the soul is the same.  Nothing can be stated against this premise since all of scripture proclaims it. 

We are here until Christ returns.

1 Cor 15

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Can you deny the verse above?


Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
If we know the truth and what is says, then try to argue against it, we are telling a lie.

I will not lie, but confess the truth. 

All of us should do the same.  When are we saved?  When Christ returns.  What is the mechanism that NOW saves us too?  Baptism.  Where are we fished out of by fishers of men?  Who is the body?  Who is the Bride?  When does the groom come for the ENTIRE bride?  Where is she when saved from the waters below?  IN THE WATER.  Where is he?  With God.  Are we with God now?  No.  We are below.

When does the end come?  AT THE END!

1 Peter 3

In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Are WE at the right hand of God, or is Christ?  When does he come for the bride?  We tell people that their loved ones who died without Christ burn in hell.  Instead, we should tell them the truth.  Their loved ones MUST be born again.  God will not give up on them.  The WATER saves them.  God did not leave the people drowning.  He is a fisher of men. 

So are we.  Grab your rod and reel and start fishing.

« Last Edit: Sun Mar 08, 2015 - 07:47:20 by AlephBet »

Offline 4WD

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4814
  • Manna: 81
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of the physical body, the physical death and resurrection of the body.

Baptism is the avenue of rebirth of the spirit.  It is in baptism that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Spirit is received.  That is a rebirth of the spirit, not the body.

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of the physical body, the physical death and resurrection of the body.

Baptism is the avenue of rebirth of the spirit.  It is in baptism that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Spirit is received.  That is a rebirth of the spirit, not the body.

Is the enemy still at work?  Who is at work, as the ones made for good works in the body?  Who are the fishers of men?  Where do they fish?  When does the end come, when Christ RETURNS for the Bride?  Where is the Bride working until he comes?  When does the Bible state that this all happens?  What is the sequence of events?  Has he judged the nations?  Is the new Jerusalem here on Earth yet? 

How many days is 3 to the Lord?  Is there a 1,000 reign on Earth where all things are revealed?  Who is here on Earth until that future temple is raised again?  Has Christ come again for the Bride?

Answer the questions.




Offline 4WD

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4814
  • Manna: 81
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of the physical body, the physical death and resurrection of the body.

Baptism is the avenue of rebirth of the spirit.  It is in baptism that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Spirit is received.  That is a rebirth of the spirit, not the body.

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of the physical body, the physical death and resurrection of the body.

Baptism is the avenue of rebirth of the spirit.  It is in baptism that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Spirit is received.  That is a rebirth of the spirit, not the body.

Read it in context:

19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?

What is the sequence? 

If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
    for tomorrow we die.”

No.  We ARE raised from the Earth back to life again.  You MUST be born again.

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

Don't be ignorant of what Paul was saying.  He believed that BOTH the righteous and unrighteous would be together to see the Lord return.  Today, all 7 billion are here now.

Acts 24

15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

1 Cor 15 continued...

Does he go on to tell you that you sow a perishable body to be raised imperishable.  YES!  It IS true, but WHEN???????

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.


Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
The truth of my original post about baptism now boils down to two questions:

When are we raised from this Earth to our new Spiritual body?

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

Where are we until this happens?  Where are the nations during the tribulation?  Before Christ comes for the Bride, where is she?

Where do we sleep?

Isaiah 26

We have a strong city;
    God makes salvation
    its walls and ramparts.
2 Open the gates
    that the righteous nation may enter,

    the nation that keeps faith.
3 You will keep in perfect peace
    those whose minds are steadfast,
    because they trust in you.
4 Trust in the Lord forever,
    for the Lord, the Lord himself, is the Rock eternal.
5 He humbles those who dwell on high,
    he lays the lofty city low;
he levels it to the ground
    and casts it down to the dust.
6 Feet trample it down—
    the feet of the oppressed,
    the footsteps of the poor.

7 The path of the righteous is level;
    you, the Upright One, make the way of the righteous smooth.
8 Yes, Lord, walking in the way of your laws,
    we wait for you;
your name and renown
    are the desire of our hearts.
9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
    in the morning my spirit longs for you.

When your judgments come upon the earth,
    the people of the world learn righteousness.
10 But when grace is shown to the wicked,
    they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
    and do not regard the majesty of the Lord.
11 Lord, your hand is lifted high,
    but they do not see it.
Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
    let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

12 Lord, you establish peace for us;
    all that we have accomplished you have done for us.
13 Lord our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us,
    but your name alone do we honor.
14 They are now dead, they live no more;
    their spirits do not rise.

You punished them and brought them to ruin;
    you wiped out all memory of them.
15 You have enlarged the nation, Lord;
    you have enlarged the nation.
You have gained glory for yourself;
    you have extended all the borders of the land.

16 Lord, they came to you in their distress;
    when you disciplined them,
    they could barely whisper a prayer.
17 As a pregnant woman about to give birth
    writhes and cries out in her pain,
    so were we in your presence, Lord.

18 We were with child, we writhed in labor,
    but we gave birth to wind.
We have not brought salvation to the earth,
    and the people of the world have not come to life.


19 But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—

your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.


20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.

21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

« Last Edit: Sun Mar 08, 2015 - 08:10:48 by AlephBet »

Offline 4WD

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4814
  • Manna: 81
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
You obviously are not paying attention.

1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of the physical body, the physical death and resurrection of the body.

Baptism is the avenue of rebirth of the spirit.  It is in baptism that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Spirit is received.  That is a rebirth of the spirit, not the body.

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
You obviously are not paying attention.

1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of the physical body, the physical death and resurrection of the body.

Baptism is the avenue of rebirth of the spirit.  It is in baptism that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Spirit is received.  That is a rebirth of the spirit, not the body.


I couldn't agree more.  Again, when do we receive the glorified body in the Spirit?  After we are resurrected to the material body again.  We don't get to the Spirit body until Christ comes and the last trumpet sounds.  Until then, we are in the water. 

Has Christ come yet?  Has the last trumpet blown.  Have we been raised incorruptible together as the Bride of Christ?


Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
1 Corinthians 15:12
[ We Will Come Back to Life ] If we have told you that Christ has been brought back to life, how can some of you say that coming back from the dead is impossible?


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11868
  • Manna: 345
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
....It's the point.  Yahweh had to learn it.  So do we.


I'd ask you why I should read all else you have to add to this debate when you first see God as other than the scriptures say he is?

God is Omniscient and Supreme over all that exists or ever shall and is unchanging and eternal. God therefore need not learn anything at all.

Very observant.

I think he believes (some variation of) the old Marcionite heresy - that is, that the god of the Old Testament is some kind of lesser god, and that the "Father" in the New Testament is the true God above all other gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope

Jarrod
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 09, 2015 - 13:32:30 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline Spirit Filled

  • Those that have to watch their mouths are telling you their thinking is whack first
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Female
  • Just when I had it together the duck tape failed
    • View Profile
....It's the point.  Yahweh had to learn it.  So do we.


I'd ask you why I should read all else you have to add to this debate when you first see God as other than the scriptures say he is?

God is Omniscient and Supreme over all that exists or ever shall and is unchanging and eternal. God therefore need not learn anything at all.

Very observant.

I think he believes (some variation of) the old Marcionite heresy - that is, that the god of the Old Testament is some kind of lesser god, and that the "Father" in the New Testament is the true God above all other gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope

Jarrod
  I could be wrong but wouldn't that be like unto Gnosticism's and neo-Platonic teachings?  Their Demiurge? 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11868
  • Manna: 345
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
I could be wrong but wouldn't that be like unto Gnosticism's and neo-Platonic teachings?  Their Demiurge?
Bingo.

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
I could be wrong but wouldn't that be like unto Gnosticism's and neo-Platonic teachings?  Their Demiurge?
Bingo.

Not at all.  The Son of God represents ALL things.  Nothing was made that was not impressed by his image.  He was made sin for us.  The image of God is inverse.  The point is the take the opposite of God and bring it in conformity to his image.  By saying that the Son of God was made sin, it shows us that he was made the opposite of God.  God is Good.  The Son was made Sin (opposite).  The goal is to then conform this image to the exact image of God, but not God.  Individuation. 

The Gnostics see a cosmic battle.  I see a Father raising a Son. 




Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11868
  • Manna: 345
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Maybe I have misunderstood?  I had gained the impression that you did not believe that God in the Old Testament (YHVH) was the same as the Father from the New Testament.

Who do you believe YHVH is?

Offline AlephBet

  • Coming to the Aleph Bet through the Word
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Maybe I have misunderstood?  I had gained the impression that you did not believe that God in the Old Testament (YHVH) was the same as the Father from the New Testament.

Who do you believe YHVH is?

Although it's impossible to truly know, I do not believe him to be God.  He shed blood after Elohim stated this:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans his blood will be shed,
        because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Elohim then made the promise of the Rainbow (all generation and nations).  Yahweh selected one color to bless, then promptly used the to shed blood.  Clearly, scholars know there are more speaking voices in the Old Testament than simply one.  Elohim is the Father.  Often, Yahweh uses the title he lost in Genesis 3 (Yahweh Elohim) as the Elohim of Israel.  If you check the names of God Bible, Yahweh lost that title by Chapter 4. 

My conclusion is that Yahweh is the Ego of the Son of God.  Satan is the conscience (accuser).  All rulers, powers and authorities are in and through the Son of God.  Colossians 1 tells us this.  That means Yahweh, Satan and so on.  The very principalities we struggle against are IN the Son.  God is raising a Son.  The Son is raising us.  EL is Aleph Lamed, or Good Shepherd.  The Son is the Lamb of the EL (Shepherd).  Jesus is the Shepherd of mankind.  We are shepherds to our own kids.  In all cases, the image repeats.  Simply use our own lives as the shadow cast from above in the same manner. 

Consider these verses:

Ephesians 1:21 He is far above all rulers, authorities, powers, lords, and all other names that can be named, not only in this present world but also in the world to come.

Ephesians 6:12 This is not a wrestling match against a human opponent. We are wrestling with rulers, authorities, the powers who govern this world of darkness, and spiritual forces that control evil in the heavenly world.

1 Peter 3:22 Christ has gone to heaven where he has the highest position that God gives. Angels, rulers, and powers have been placed under his authority.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Offline JohnnyB

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Manna: 0
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Baptism is after rebirth and has nothing to do with rebirth it's an appeal of a good conscience toward God, I Peter 3:21. Your sins need to be forgiven to have a good conscience toward God. Peter gives the order of salvation I Peter 1:2 "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." Your salvation is by the election of the Father, the sanctification of the Spirit or rebirth, what is the result of the election and sanctification it brings us to the obedience of Christ. The triune God in our salvation. Paul also writes the same thing.

II Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Obedience by grace, elect from love and communion through sanctification.

Again Paul says in Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Not by works of righteousness but according to mercy, He saves us, by washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which Jesus poured out on us and we are justified by grace.

What does Jesus say John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God, so you would not know you need to repent, have faith or be baptized.

Then, Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Here He's talking about entering the kingdom, one must be born of water and Spirit. Peter and James say we're born by the word of truth or the word of God and Paul says the word is water.

James 1:18 " Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." We are brought forth or born again of the Fathers will by the word of truth.

I Peter 1:22-23 "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever" Peter says we obeyed the truth through the Spirit, being born again, through the word of God, which he call truth. Listen to what Jesus says about the word.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." Remember He said to enter the king down we need to be born of water and the Spirit. So we are born by the word and the Spirit, water means the word, listen to what Paul says in.

Ephesians 5:25-26 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word," That Jesus might sanctify and cleanse the Church with the washing of water by the word.

So we need to be born again to see the kingdom by being born again or regenerated by washing and renewed by the Spirit like Paul said in Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

To the newness of life as Paul says in Romans 6:4 "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." and I Corinthians 12:12-13 "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

We are baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit, that includes His death and resurrection, this is our union with Christ, which is another blessing of our salvation by grace. Here's something interesting, it says, made to drink into one Spirit, you drink liquid, could Paul be alluding to the water of the word and the Spirit?

So we are regenerated to see the kingdom by the word and the Spirit, now we see the need for faith and repentance. Faith justifies us, Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." We are sanctified by the Father and preserved in Christ.

Jude 1:1b "To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:" In the epistles except for I Peter, all the baptisms are about the Spirit baptism, unless I missed them. The main focus of the epistles is the The Father, Christ and Spirit and how they work in our salvation. They don't rely speak to water baptism, do we need to be water baptized, yes for sure, does it save us, only in that it an appeal toward God of a good conscience.

Why because, Ephesians 1:7-12 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

All according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, elect to regeneration, justification is by faith, sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, preseverance in Christ Jesus, until glorification, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 30, 2017 - 01:22:57 by JohnnyB »

 

     
anything