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Author Topic: Baptism is not in water  (Read 7964 times)

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Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #140 on: Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 15:43:22 »
I didn't write "I know neither were baptized."

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #140 on: Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 15:43:22 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #141 on: Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 15:56:23 »
Duplicate.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 17:06:16 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #141 on: Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 15:56:23 »

Offline Man_Of_Honor

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #142 on: Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 18:09:38 »
I'll come back and finish this wonderful discourse.  Remember, if Nicodemus had NOT ask the question that he did, then Jesus would have NEVER mention water with being born of the Spirit, never.  Verses 6-8 proves that point. 

No, Not really Red.  If you read through the whole discourse carefully, you will see that in verse 3, Jesus declares, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."  Then Nicodemus raises his question about being born when he is old.  Jesus answers him with a clarification of what it means to be born again [or born from above].  Jesus says in verse 5, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What Jesus has done in verse 5 is to define what He meant in verse 3.  The statement in verse 5 is a repeat of verse 3, substituting directly for the words "born again" in verse 3 with the words "born of water and the Spirit" in verse 5.  So obviously, Jesus has defined "born again" to be one and the same as "born of water and the Spirit".   Born of water and the Spirit is what born again means.

And in fact the verses 6-8 confirm that fact.  Jesus says, essentially, "Nicodemus, I am not talking about physical rebirth, I am talking about Spiritual rebirth".  A Spiritual rebirth made necessary by the sins of Nicodemus leading to being dead [spiritually] in his trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).  Being dead in his trespasses and sins precluded Nicodemus from entering into the kingdom of God.  Therefore it was necessary for him to be reborn, born again, born from above, born of water and the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God.

So Nicodemus is speaking of a physical birth, Jesus is speaking of a spiritual birth, and 4WD is speaking of a baptismal tank.

4WD, you say the thief didn't need to be baptized because he was under the Old Covenant. Well, why would Christ be telling Nicodemus he needed to be baptized, he too was under the Old Covenant. It was three years later when the thief "didn't need to be baptized."

First I haven't spoken about the thief one way or the other.  But how do you know that neither the thief nor Nicodemus had been baptized?  Many people throughout the region had been baptized by John.  That baptism was, like the baptism in Acts 2:38, for the forgiveness of sins. And once Jesus had selected the disciples, they too baptized.   But no matter.  You believe what you believe.  I can't change that.  I can only present what I think the Bible says.  And there is no way, as far as I am concerned,  that anyone can effectively argue that baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 8:38; 10:48; 22:17, etc) is not in water.

I know neither were baptized. The thief was saved on the cross, and baptism always comes after believing. He died on the cross and couldn't have been baptized.

Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:11, "and you receive not our witness." Nicodemus was not a believer at the time and couldn't have been baptized.

One other thing! John's baptism was not the same as the baptism in Acts 2:38.  Paul said in Acts 19:4 that John's baptism was saying to the people, that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. The baptism of Acts 2:38 was in the name of the Lord, and was the consummation of the baptism of John. Forgiveness of sin is only found in Christ, not in John's baptism. John's baptism was temporary, only pointing to Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

erm, if you read the whole conversation above, you will see were not speaking of the Lords baptism, we were speaking of Johns baptism. 4WD obviously believes Johns baptsim forgives sin, it did not. He said the baptism of Acts 2:38 was the same as Johns, it was not.

We know the Lords commandment of baptism had not yet been given. My point was that Paul said Johns baptism was one of repentance, it pointed to the One who could forgive sins.

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin.  That is what the Bible says in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3.  Paul's statement in Acts 19 was to let them know that John's baptism was not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.  His statement that is a baptism of repentance does not conflict with nor contradict Mark and Luke that it was for the forgiveness of sin.  Forgiveness of sins did not begin with Jesus' death on the cross. His propitiation for those sins was the result of His death on the cross. As I suggested above, the OT gives ample evidence of forgiveness of sin under the OT sacrifices.  That is what the sin offerings were for.

The blood of bulls and goats do not forgive sins, nor does water baptism.

The sacrificial system was about faith. One must have faith before he does anything. Obeying God through the sacrifices projected the faith needed for salvation, not the doing or sacrificing.

The Apostles, or should I say disciples at that time, baptized in water but Jesus did not baptize. This baptism was the same as Johns baptism, it only pointed to salvation in Christ. The words were REPENT. It required the same faith as as the needed for the sacrifices. It was faith that saved, not Johns baptism or the baptism in the name of the Lord, only the faith.

It is actually faith along with other essentials needed for salvation.

A few likes to claim that Jesus did not baptize. Yet, He was the overseer of what the apostles were doing.

You seem to forget that it does not begin with faith either. It is God's provisions and His Word that takes place prior to faith.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #143 on: Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 21:12:45 »
Agreed.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #144 on: Sun Mar 29, 2015 - 20:50:25 »
<<<...it does not begin with faith either. It is God's provisions and His Word that takes place prior to faith.>>>

Yes, Amen! ...with God's Predestination, Election, Providence and <<<provisions and His Word that takes place prior to faith>>> absolutely!

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #144 on: Sun Mar 29, 2015 - 20:50:25 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #145 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 06:07:05 »
The Apostles, or should I say disciples at that time, baptized in water but Jesus did not baptize. This baptism was the same as Johns baptism, it only pointed to salvation in Christ. The words were REPENT. It required the same faith as as the needed for the sacrifices. It was faith that saved, not Johns baptism or the baptism in the name of the Lord, only the faith.

Mar 1:4  John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3  And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


Actually we are saved by grace.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #146 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 07:03:25 »
The Apostles, or should I say disciples at that time, baptized in water but Jesus did not baptize. This baptism was the same as Johns baptism, it only pointed to salvation in Christ. The words were REPENT. It required the same faith as as the needed for the sacrifices. It was faith that saved, not Johns baptism or the baptism in the name of the Lord, only the faith.

Mar 1:4  John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3  And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


Actually we are saved by grace.

You really should read Acts 19 again. These men had already been baptized by John but Paul baptized them again. Why? Because John's baptism was "preparing the way of repentance" for Christ to forgive their sins. John's baptism forgave nothing. It only taught to prepare for the One who was coming that could forgive sin.

We finally agree on something 4WD. I really like your last line. But we still disagree on what is added to that grace.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #147 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 07:18:20 »
The Apostles, or should I say disciples at that time, baptized in water but Jesus did not baptize. This baptism was the same as Johns baptism, it only pointed to salvation in Christ. The words were REPENT. It required the same faith as as the needed for the sacrifices. It was faith that saved, not Johns baptism or the baptism in the name of the Lord, only the faith.

Mar 1:4  John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3  And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


Actually we are saved by grace.

You really should read Acts 19 again. These men had already been baptized by John but Paul baptized them again. Why? Because John's baptism was "preparing the way of repentance" for Christ to forgive their sins. John's baptism forgave nothing. It only taught to prepare for the One who was coming that could forgive sin.

We finally agree on something 4WD. I really like your last line. But we still disagree on what is added to that grace.

Charlie,

Both Mark and Luke says that John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.  It is silly to deny that.  Forgiveness of sins is not new to the New Covenant.  I pointed out before, maybe even to you, that the Old Covenant sin offerings were for the forgiveness of sins. But you are correct, John's baptism didn't forgiven anything.  God forgave sins when they repented and were baptized.  Perhaps it is just that you do not understand forgiveness of sins.  That in itself is not salvation.  Christ's death on the Cross was not for the purpose of the forgiveness of sins.  It was for the payment of the debt incurred by sins.  Forgiveness is just that - forgiveness.  It does not pay the debt owed.  Christ did that on the cross.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #148 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 07:40:45 »
The Apostles, or should I say disciples at that time, baptized in water but Jesus did not baptize. This baptism was the same as Johns baptism, it only pointed to salvation in Christ. The words were REPENT. It required the same faith as as the needed for the sacrifices. It was faith that saved, not Johns baptism or the baptism in the name of the Lord, only the faith.

Mar 1:4  John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3  And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


Actually we are saved by grace.

You really should read Acts 19 again. These men had already been baptized by John but Paul baptized them again. Why? Because John's baptism was "preparing the way of repentance" for Christ to forgive their sins. John's baptism forgave nothing. It only taught to prepare for the One who was coming that could forgive sin.

We finally agree on something 4WD. I really like your last line. But we still disagree on what is added to that grace.

Charlie,

Both Mark and Luke says that John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.  It is silly to deny that.  Forgiveness of sins is not new to the New Covenant.  I pointed out before, maybe even to you, that the Old Covenant sin offerings were for the forgiveness of sins. But you are correct, John's baptism didn't forgiven anything.  God forgave sins when they repented and were baptized.  Perhaps it is just that you do not understand forgiveness of sins.  That in itself is not salvation.  Christ's death on the Cross was not for the purpose of the forgiveness of sins.  It was for the payment of the debt incurred by sins.  Forgiveness is just that - forgiveness.  It does not pay the debt owed.  Christ did that on the cross.

No 4WD, what is really silly is that we continue to argue. We live in two separate spiritual realms. I believe we are saved by grace through faith alone, you believe water baptism is a link in God's plan for man's salvation. The two are contrary to one another from beginning to end of scripture.

We disagree on almost every major doctrine in scripture, if not every one of them. It is impossible for us agree! I believe you will actually agree with me on this.

I can pull up scripture (and so can you) all day long, but to no avail. It's impossible for us to communicate. I'll do my best to stay out of your way and not bother you anymore. No hard feelings!

Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #149 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 07:50:14 »
The Apostles, or should I say disciples at that time, baptized in water but Jesus did not baptize. This baptism was the same as Johns baptism, it only pointed to salvation in Christ. The words were REPENT. It required the same faith as as the needed for the sacrifices. It was faith that saved, not Johns baptism or the baptism in the name of the Lord, only the faith.

Mar 1:4  John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3  And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


Actually we are saved by grace.

You really should read Acts 19 again. These men had already been baptized by John but Paul baptized them again. Why? Because John's baptism was "preparing the way of repentance" for Christ to forgive their sins. John's baptism forgave nothing. It only taught to prepare for the One who was coming that could forgive sin.

We finally agree on something 4WD. I really like your last line. But we still disagree on what is added to that grace.

Charlie,

Both Mark and Luke says that John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.  It is silly to deny that.  Forgiveness of sins is not new to the New Covenant.  I pointed out before, maybe even to you, that the Old Covenant sin offerings were for the forgiveness of sins. But you are correct, John's baptism didn't forgiven anything.  God forgave sins when they repented and were baptized.  Perhaps it is just that you do not understand forgiveness of sins.  That in itself is not salvation.  Christ's death on the Cross was not for the purpose of the forgiveness of sins.  It was for the payment of the debt incurred by sins.  Forgiveness is just that - forgiveness.  It does not pay the debt owed.  Christ did that on the cross.

No 4WD, what is really silly is that we continue to argue. We live in two separate spiritual realms. I believe we are saved by grace through faith alone, you believe water baptism is a link in God's plan for man's salvation. The two are contrary to one another from beginning to end of scripture.

We disagree on almost every major doctrine in scripture, if not every one of them. It is impossible for us agree! I believe you will actually agree with me on this.

I can pull up scripture (and so can you) all day long, but to no avail. It's impossible for us to communicate. I'll do my best to stay out of your way and not bother you anymore. No hard feelings!

Why pull up Scripture?  You don't believe what it says anyway.  Mark and Luke both clearly say that John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins, but you don't agree with either Mark or Luke.  Perhaps the reason that we disagree on some doctrine in Scripture is because you don't agree with some Scripture.

The only hard feelings that I have toward you is that you sometimes refuse to listen to what the Bible says.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #150 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 08:27:49 »
No, Not really Red.  If you read through the whole discourse carefully

4WD~Good morning.........I have read this precious discourse many hundreds, if not thousands of times very carefully over the years. But, that being said, does not exempt a person from not seeing truth, as we all should know.  But, I have done what you requested and shall continue to do this, until God removes my abilities from doing so, which I trust he will not, until my spirit departs from my body. We all are at his mercy, concerning these things, even at his mercy concerning seeing with the eyes of our understanding his hidden truths.  Our prayer is that of David's:

Quote
Psalm 119:18~"Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law."

Men by nature, are born spiritual blind, and are NOT able to see spiritual truth, until they are born of God;  and even then, though the power to see is there, God must open the eyes of our understanding, to help us to see, the many wondrous truths that are hidden therein~the power of corruption still with us, and it is not easy to see truth, so much that works agaisnt us; nevertheless, the power to see is there, which before being born of God~was not there.  Nicodemus' child like faith pictures this for us so clearly, which you are making it harder to see for others, who are born of God, by you withstanding the truth taught within this discourse.  This discourse is not here by chance~but by God's ordained purpose, that is: to reveal a precious truth to his children. I see it clearly, and desire others to see it likewise.  But, I am only a messenger, and can only be faithful in what God has given to me, to help others with, and for my own refreshing of my spirit.

Quote
you will see that in verse 3, Jesus declares, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

I do SEE it very clearly, and know WHY Jesus said to words to Nicodemus.  That the very purpose as to WHY this discourse are part of the canon of scriptures.  As I said in my post reply #125 where I said these words:

Quote
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."~ Jesus is revealing to Nicodemus that NO MAN can see what he is confessing that he see, EXCEPT HE BE BORN AGAIN!!! Jesus said what he did, based upon Nicodemus' CONFESSION! 

You see 4WD, I am following closely this discourse, yea, ALL OF IT, so that I can allow every scriptures within this discourse to drive the interpretation for me~and not of myself force an interpretation upon them that will fit with what I desire them to say.   You would be wise if you did the same.

Quote
Then Nicodemus raises his question about being born when he is old.

True, and why did he raise this question? Because Jesus used the words: "Born AGAIN", and not as so many believe that the Greek said: "Born from above" ~  Yes I believe that the new birth is from God, who is above, but Jesus used the words born AGAIN base upon Nicodemus words back to him.  This should not be that hard to see.

Quote
What Jesus has done in verse 5 is to define what He meant in verse 3.

Half correct, but you are leaving out a most important part~Jesus is answering Nicodemus' question first, and then he is revealing a biblical truth how that one must be born of the Spirit of God, BEFORE HE CAN SEE and enter into the kingdom of God, where truth is taught correctly and understood by those who are part of this kingdom!

Quote
Born of water and the Spirit is what born again means.

You are wrong.  That's what you want it to mean.  You are not seeing this discourse correctly. 

Quote
And in fact the verses 6-8 confirm that fact.

Those scriptures are describing the nature of being born again by the Spirit of God ALONE.  Water is not mentioned in these two scriptures, and the reason is clear~ because water has not ONE thing to do with one being born AGAIN by the Spirit of the Living God.  If water was part of being born of the Spirit, then WHY did Jesus leave it out when he described the nature of how one is born again?  Well, it plain to anyone who does not have a agenda to protect, and a system to push, to get man to be part of the process of being born again.   Just as it was impossible for Nicodemus to re-enter his mother's womb again, so it is impossible for man to have any part of him being born again spiritually, since all men are dead in trespasses and sins, and must first be quicken to life by God's Spirit, before they can, even see and come to Jesus, as their righteousness before the God of heaven.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 08:33:30 by Red Baker »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #151 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 08:54:51 »
Quote
Psalm 119:18~"Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law."

Men by nature, are born spiritual blind, and are NOT able to see spiritual truth, until they are born of God;  and even then, though the power to see is there, God must open the eyes of our understanding, to help us to see, the many wondrous truths that are hidden therein~the power of corruption still with us, and it is not easy to see truth, so much that works agaisnt us; nevertheless, the power to see is there, which before being born of God~was not there.  Nicodemus' child like faith pictures this for us so clearly, which you are making it harder to see for others, who are born of God, by you withstanding the truth taught within this discourse.  This discourse is not here by chance~but by God's ordained purpose, that is: to reveal a precious truth to his children. I see it clearly, and desire others to see it likewise.  But, I am only a messenger, and can only be faithful in what God has given to me, to help others with, and for my own refreshing of my spirit.

Man is created in God's image.  God is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9) and forms the spirit within man (Zech 12:1). The spirit is born of Spirit (John 3:6).  If you believe you are born spiritually blind then you must also believe that it was God who formed a blind spirit in you.  Not only blind but dead.  Sad, sad, sad to have such a view of God.  And that view distorts just about everything the Bible says concerning mankind.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #152 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 14:25:14 »
Charlie24,
Quote
No 4WD, what is really silly is that we continue to argue. We live in two separate spiritual realms. I believe we are saved by grace through faith alone, you believe water baptism is a link in God's plan for man's salvation. The two are contrary to one another from beginning to end of scripture.

We disagree on almost every major doctrine in scripture, if not every one of them. It is impossible for us agree! I believe you will actually agree with me on this.

I can pull up scripture (and so can you) all day long, but to no avail. It's impossible for us to communicate. I'll do my best to stay out of your way and not bother you anymore. No hard feelings!
Where's the person in the Bible championing what you're saying, saved through faith Alone?

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #153 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 14:47:18 »
Charlie24,
Quote
No 4WD, what is really silly is that we continue to argue. We live in two separate spiritual realms. I believe we are saved by grace through faith alone, you believe water baptism is a link in God's plan for man's salvation. The two are contrary to one another from beginning to end of scripture.

We disagree on almost every major doctrine in scripture, if not every one of them. It is impossible for us agree! I believe you will actually agree with me on this.

I can pull up scripture (and so can you) all day long, but to no avail. It's impossible for us to communicate. I'll do my best to stay out of your way and not bother you anymore. No hard feelings!
Where's the person in the Bible championing what you're saying, saved through faith Alone?

No doubt Paul leads the way. But as you well know, it's not on one line in black and white.

I firmly believe it was meant to be that way, along with other doctrines.

For example, if you read Matt. 3:11 you will interpret it completely different. JtB said he baptized with water unto repentance, but Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

I have no doubt that John is saying, I have prepared the way for repentance and now Jesus will fulfill it by forgiving the sin through repentance by His baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Here's the problem, you say this baptism by Jesus is in water, I say the baptism in the Holy Spirit is our salvation apart from water and then comes the obedience of water baptism. It' a fact it happened that way in Acts 10.

I suppose it will never end though. I do see your point of it all, don't think I'm saying you have no foundation. What is difficult for me is revealing to you that you are not seeing what you think. 
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 15:47:13 by Charlie24 »

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #154 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 21:05:13 »
The Apostles, or should I say disciples at that time, baptized in water but Jesus did not baptize. This baptism was the same as Johns baptism, it only pointed to salvation in Christ. The words were REPENT. It required the same faith as as the needed for the sacrifices. It was faith that saved, not Johns baptism or the baptism in the name of the Lord, only the faith.

Mar 1:4  John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3  And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


Actually we are saved by grace.

I've been following the conversation.  I would like to point out two things. 

1)  By saved, we must have a timeline.

1 Peter 1

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

These and many other verses point out that we are here in the waters of life until we are saved from the waters.  We are the fishers of men.  We are here to do the work.

2)  1 Peter 3 tells you how to see the water in relation to both salvation and beasts being refined by the waters.

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

The Ark saved 8.  The water saves the rest.  God is not giving up on the imprisoned spirits.  What happens to them when they come in contact with the authorities in and through the Son (Colossians 1)?

Hebrews 11:

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

We don't know what it is like in the pit.  We have no vision to know what it means to wander as a soul apart from a body.  Faith is only part of this miserable picture.  Christ is overcoming an older order of sin and death.  We are not aware of how this works.  We DO know that baptism is in the water.  Life is lived here. 

In John 3, which you have been discussing, what came before this chapter?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Not only did these people have faith, they were eye witnesses.  They knew who the Messiah was.  The could see him and HAD FAITH.  More than faith, they had fact.  What did Jesus do?  He would not entrust himself to them.  Why?  They MUST be born again.  It was not time for salvation.  Do we need to walk to the altar of a church and receive Christ?  NO!   He does not need our testimony.  He knows who the elect are.  He knows that the water must save the rest.  Seven Angels and one Christ.  That makes 8.  The water saves the rest. 

He's the one bringing us here.  He is the Lord of Hosts.  Our body is the Host.

John 5

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Raises where?

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.

Eventually, your mind will get it.  Life is HERE!  Rest is in heaven.  We have a chamber.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Where does Christ go?  To prepare a place for you.  Many mansions.  Has the groom come for the bride?  NO!  Not yet.  We are waiting.  Where are we waiting?  How long have you been here?  The promises that were made to past generations were stated as future promises to them.  How can they gain better resurrection to receive the promises?  They must be born again. 

When?





« Last Edit: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 21:16:02 by AlephBet »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #155 on: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 21:38:22 »
Charlie24,
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No doubt Paul leads the way. But as you well know, it's not on one line in black and white.

I firmly believe it was meant to be that way, along with other doctrines.
Not being on the black and white makes all the difference, when it comes to any doctrine. If Paul was "leading the way", it would be expected that he would say it at least once, as the LEADER of this alleged belief.

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For example, if you read Matt. 3:11 you will interpret it completely different. JtB said he baptized with water unto repentance, but Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
I will not interpret it. I will go by what it tells us and not add wat it doesn't tell us. It says Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist did not describe what that would result it. He did not say forgiveness of sins would be involved, he did not say how many people would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire or that it would become normative, he just said it would happen, and that Jesus would be the one to do it. All we could take away from this is that this is what JtB is doing now and that is what Jesus will do later. Nothing more. That's all that was written here. Acts 2 at Pentecost and Acts 10 with Cornelius and company are the only times it was recorded to have happened.  In neither case was it associated with forgiveness of sins. These two events alone fulfill what was written in Matthew 3:11. Any meaning added to baptism with the Holy Spirit to explain John 3:11 would come from other verses. Things added to John 3:11 that is not from scriptures are man's invention and bias.

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I have no doubt that John is saying, I have prepared the way for repentance and now Jesus will fulfill it by forgiving the sin through repentance by His baptism of the Holy Ghost.
I can see how you're trying to draw a parallel between the two. It's not actually stated, so it's only conjecture. If that's where this was headed, then I belief it would have been confirmed with an explicit statement later. Like John 3:5 says being born of water and Spirit "could have" meant water baptism, but later verses explicitly associated water baptism with salvation/forgiveness of sins. One could look back at John 3:3 and say, "Oh, that's what he was talking about." There's no verse ever that associates Baptism with the Holy Spirit with forgiveness of sins. The only two incidences recorded are Acts 2 and Acts 10. It's not mentioned in either of them. So if you're going to go ahead and make that connection on your own, then the inevitable conclusion must be made, You're getting that conceived of idea from a source place and a source time foreign to original Biblical teaching.

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Here's the problem, you say this baptism by Jesus is in water
No, the "scripture" says baptism in Jesus's name is in water Acts 10:47-48. The "scripture" says baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit was what was described in Acts 2 & Acts 10.

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I say the baptism in the Holy Spirit is our salvation apart from water and then comes the obedience of water baptism.
Then you stand outside of scripture. The scriptures never associate baptism with the Holy Spirit with salvation. The scriptures does associate water baptism in Jesus's name with forgiveness of sins Acts 10:47-48, Acts 2:38, and the Bible never mentions a mere obedience water baptism and didn't exist until the 1950's.

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It' a fact it happened that way in Acts 10.
Acts 10 doesn't associate Baptism with the Holy Spirit with them being saved. It cannot be evidenced as a fact without that written link

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I suppose it will never end though. I do see your point of it all, don't think I'm saying you have no foundation.
I do appreciate that you acknowledge that we at least have a scriptural basis for our belief. I believe (and hope) that through decades of toil since I became aware of the salvation issue in the 1980's, this belief has gone in the Christian religious community from heretical/cultic to respectable, and even viable, even it's not agreed with. I think the text of the written scriptures themselves are taking a more prominent role in Christian belief among the maylay of popular tradition. Praise God.

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What is difficult for me is revealing to you that you are not seeing what you think.
To uproot my belief will take explicitly written scripture to the contrary. Between the lines inferences as you have been presenting just aren't going to do it. To me, between the lines inferences are man's biases whereas the written scriptures are the Word of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 30, 2015 - 22:05:29 by e.r.m. »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #156 on: Tue Mar 31, 2015 - 05:57:08 »
Man is created in God's image.

This has been explained so many times, to mean that we were created in righteousness, knowledge, and understanding, and wisdom, not necessarily in that order of course, but includes all of them. This we understand by the new birth  how God recreates the new man back to that, that Adam had before the fall.  Ephesians 4:24 cp. Colossians 3:10; etc.

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  If you believe you are born spiritually blind then you must also believe that it was God who formed a blind spirit in you.

We are indeed born dead spiritually.  This is the results of Adam's sin that entered into this world. God did NOT create Adam in this manner, he fell into this state by disobeying God, and the results follow, in that his seed after him are born in HIS LIKENESS after the fall, not before, in which he was created.  Again, his dead spirit which is the medium through which he worshiped God, died in the very day he disobey, yea, the very second.

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Not only blind but dead.  Sad, sad, sad to have such a view of God.  And that view distorts just about everything the Bible says concerning mankind.

Your reasoning is not founded upon the word of God, but your own personal thoughts.  If your view is correct, then infants CANNOT DIE personally, yet they do die.  The wages of sin is death, both physically and eternally.  I am not saying much more since the thread is about Baptism, which I have a few things to say.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #157 on: Tue Mar 31, 2015 - 06:43:20 »
Man is created in God's image.

This has been explained so many times, to mean that we were created in righteousness, knowledge, and understanding, and wisdom, not necessarily in that order of course, but includes all of them. This we understand by the new birth  how God recreates the new man back to that, that Adam had before the fall.  Ephesians 4:24 cp. Colossians 3:10; etc.
No, absolutely not.   In the new birth God recreates the new man back to that to which he was born before he sinned.

Mat 18:3  and [Jesus] said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:14  But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Red, the kingdom of heaven [God] is not a kingdom of dead spirits.

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Quote
  If you believe you are born spiritually blind then you must also believe that it was God who formed a blind spirit in you.

We are indeed born dead spiritually.  This is the results of Adam's sin that entered into this world. God did NOT create Adam in this manner, he fell into this state by disobeying God, and the results follow, in that his seed after him are born in HIS LIKENESS after the fall, not before, in which he was created.  Again, his dead spirit which is the medium through which he worshiped God, died in the very day he disobey, yea, the very second.

But it is only God who could have caused us to be born spiritually dead because Adam sinned.  Adam didn't have any such power or authority to do that.  Creation, including any fundamental change in the creation, is only of God.  Only God has the power of creation.  If anything changed with respect to the basic attributes of the human creation, then only God could have done that.  And He did not,  As I have said again and again, if you believe we are born spiritually dead then you believe a most heinous character and attribute about God.  But God be praised, the spirit that He forms in us is spiritually alive.


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Not only blind but dead.  Sad, sad, sad to have such a view of God.  And that view distorts just about everything the Bible says concerning mankind.

Your reasoning is not founded upon the word of God, but your own personal thoughts.  If your view is correct, then infants CANNOT DIE personally, yet they do die.  The wages of sin is death, both physically and eternally.  I am not saying much more since the thread is about Baptism, which I have a few things to say.

No, the wages of sin is not physical death.  Physical death is an inherent aspect of the physical universe.  Thinking that physical death is the result of sin is what has Thaddaeus all discombobulated about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.  And it is a part of what has you all mixed up as well.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 31, 2015 - 06:52:07 by 4WD »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #158 on: Tue Mar 31, 2015 - 08:05:21 »
No, absolutely not.   In the new birth God recreates the new man back to that to which he was born before he sinned.

4WD, I am NOT going to hijack this thread from its original purpose. Nevertheless, you are confused, so much so, that you cannot even follow my arguments properly.  You see what you said above that I saved for you to read?  If so, then consider what I DID say.

Quote
This has been explained so many times, to mean that we were created in righteousness, knowledge, and understanding, and wisdom, not necessarily in that order of course, but includes all of them. This we understand by the new birth  how God recreates the new man back to that, that Adam had before the fall. Ephesians 4:24 cp. Colossians 3:10; etc.
   

Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #159 on: Tue Mar 31, 2015 - 08:16:06 »
No, absolutely not.   In the new birth God recreates the new man back to that to which he was born before he sinned.

4WD, I am NOT going to hijack this thread from its original purpose. Nevertheless, you are confused, so much so, that you cannot even follow my arguments properly.  You see what you said above that I saved for you to read?  If so, then consider what I DID say.

Quote
This has been explained so many times, to mean that we were created in righteousness, knowledge, and understanding, and wisdom, not necessarily in that order of course, but includes all of them. This we understand by the new birth  how God recreates the new man back to that, that Adam had before the fall. Ephesians 4:24 cp. Colossians 3:10; etc.
   

But that is simply wrong.  Neither Ephesians 4:24 nor Colossians 3:10 says a thing about Adam and "the fall". 

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #160 on: Tue Mar 31, 2015 - 08:26:29 »
But that is simply wrong.  Neither Ephesians 4:24 nor Colossians 3:10 says a thing about Adam and "the fall".

I SEE the little game you are playing~and I am not playing it in this thread.  ::juggle:: Someone needs to start a thread on Romans 5:12 which is truly the division that you are making here~ ::juggle::

Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #161 on: Tue Mar 31, 2015 - 08:44:47 »
But that is simply wrong.  Neither Ephesians 4:24 nor Colossians 3:10 says a thing about Adam and "the fall".

I SEE the little game you are playing~and I am not playing it in this thread.  ::juggle:: Someone needs to start a thread on Romans 5:12 which is truly the division that you are making here~ ::juggle::

Go ahead.

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #162 on: Thu Apr 02, 2015 - 16:16:25 »

The contradiction you are arguing is solved by knowing what you do not yet see:  Baptism is literal rebirth...

Baptism is the flood of Noah.  The Ark saved 8.  The water saves the rest.  Do you really think the God of Love leaves people behind?

The theology of "lost in judgment" incorrectly suggests that God is...

1) Limited

2) His will can be denied

John 6

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Anyone baptized into the water is here now because of one proclamation:

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

The Ark saves 8.  The water saves the rest.  We are ALL baptized if we are here now.  We have all been raised. 






Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #163 on: Wed Dec 21, 2016 - 00:40:17 »
Gomer in #4...
<<<Acts 8:38,39 "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. "
Here is one baptism in water.>>>

Here is the first perverted baptism, an apostles' envoy obeying the dictates of the arrogant ignorant newbie.


Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Baptism is not in water
« Reply #164 on: Wed Dec 21, 2016 - 01:05:32 »
Romeine 6:5 Paul and Ellipsis

This and thus is the one and true baptism of Christ into Christ,

For if we germinated in oneness (in Him),
εἰ γὰρ σύμφυτοι (ἐν αὐτῷ)

we became to the likeness of his death;
γεγόναμεν τῷ ὁμοιώματι τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ·

together though also (in Him)
ἁμα ἀλλὰ καὶ (ἐν αὐτῷ)

we shall (to the likeness) of (his) resurrection, become (in Him).
      (τῷ ὁμοιώματι) τῆς ἀναστάσεως (αὐτοῦ), ἐσόμεθα (ἐν αὐτῷ)
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 21, 2016 - 01:15:16 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »