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Author Topic: Can anyone choose Salvation?  (Read 1466 times)

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Offline Funguy33

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Can anyone choose Salvation?
« on: Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 21:06:15 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation?  The Bible says we are servants, but it also says that it is He who chooses, not us (John 15:16).

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Can anyone choose Salvation?
« on: Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 21:06:15 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 22:44:24 »
We have the will to choose.

Joshua 24:15
But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 22:44:24 »

Offline Funguy33

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 08:44:47 »

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 


 Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 


 Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 13:08:34 »
God will never force anyone to come to Him. That is why He blessed us with our own sovereign will that he will never violate. He will lead us to Him, but He will not make us accept salvation. If He did, no one would ever be condemned.

God is patient, and offers His salvation plan to everyone, and woos and waits...and waits...because of His great compassion.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

ROJTC

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 21:16:37 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation? 


NO



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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 21:16:37 »



HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 21:39:15 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation? 

NO
Of course he does.

ROJTC

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 21:53:40 »

HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 21:59:56 »
OK, you win.

ROJTC

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 22:04:39 »

Offline robert9712000

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #9 on: Sat Oct 20, 2012 - 20:16:23 »
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

sounds like free will to me

HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #10 on: Sun Oct 21, 2012 - 22:17:43 »
You see, you're confusing yourself.


According to Calvinists, God didn't really mean to give them an actual choice. You see, he knew all along that he had made some of them so that they could choose correctly, but the others he crafted from the beginning so that they could not.


This passage is simply an artifact of God's PR guy doing his job.


It's not real.


(for Calvinists)

HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Oct 22, 2012 - 13:18:01 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation?  The Bible says we are servants, but it also says that it is He who chooses, not us (John 15:16).

Free will is to choice,
as ocean is to bottle of water. 

Having a choice doesn't mean you have free will.
If I control what you have to choose from, I'm in charge of your destiny.

I'll tie you down, and wake you up and tell you, choose, gun or knife.  You have a choice.  You don't have free will.

Rom 6:16, Rom 8:5-9
Nor can you fly. So what?

HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #12 on: Mon Oct 22, 2012 - 14:21:36 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation?  The Bible says we are servants, but it also says that it is He who chooses, not us (John 15:16).

Free will is to choice,
as ocean is to bottle of water. 

Having a choice doesn't mean you have free will.
If I control what you have to choose from, I'm in charge of your destiny.

I'll tie you down, and wake you up and tell you, choose, gun or knife.  You have a choice.  You don't have free will.

Rom 6:16, Rom 8:5-9
Nor can you fly. So what?

Nor did you use an analogy to equate to the one I gave you. 

Free will would choose life.  That isn't a choice.  The one that controls the options can give you freedom to choose and still control the outcome.  In fact, Lucifer made a career out of it.  He can tell you that you are a sinner that sinning sends you to hell. Avoid Hell, run from sin, and 359 wrong directions can you run, but only ONE direction is to God.  You have 359 WRONG choices one right one.  IF he hides the one real choice, you failed, but you got to choose.

CHOOSING is from what is available.

Free Will is to get what you desire.

Freedom to choose is an acceptable term.

But you are a slave to flesh, or a slave to God. 
You obey the mindset you belong to, flesh or God.
If you are obeying one or the other, when you belong to one or the other, your choice is somewhat eliminated.

Jesus chose death. So did a Marine or two on Iwo Jima. Your conclusion is faulty based on a wrong presumption.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Oct 22, 2012 - 15:28:10 »
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

sounds like free will to me

Sounds like a choice, a choice that HE will enact in your life or HE won't.  Nothing holy about your choice, it doesn't make it so if you are denied.  The people in HELL CHOOSE LIFE, but a helluva lotta good it'll do them.

Choice =/= freewill.

People who will find themselves condemned to hellfire will have made the choice, even if they didn't make ANY choice. Once one dies, there is no further choice on offer.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #14 on: Mon Oct 22, 2012 - 15:31:22 »
I choose eternal life. 

Which my choice amounts to nothing, if I don't have faith.  I can proclaim I have faith.  I can proclaim I believe.  My proclamation means nothing if I don't actually have it.  ONly HE knows if you have what He requires.

That is not the truth. We can know exactly where we stand with God. He wants us to know and has given us His assurance.

We are not like weeds blowing in the wind, hoping that we are saved. We can know without a doubt that we are King's kids.

It comes down to whether you actually believe God or not. Do you?

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #15 on: Mon Oct 22, 2012 - 15:33:20 »
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

sounds like free will to me

Sounds like a choice, a choice that HE will enact in your life or HE won't.  Nothing holy about your choice, it doesn't make it so if you are denied.  The people in HELL CHOOSE LIFE, but a helluva lotta good it'll do them.

Choice =/= freewill.

People who will find themselves condemned to hellfire will have made the choice, even if they didn't make ANY choice. Once one dies, there is no further choice on offer.

You are arguing a hyperbolic example and not the point.  You talk around the points a lot.  May we have no more discussion please?  I'll spend all my time going backwards and reposting things that were already said and you evaded.   I'm asking respectfully here....

RESPECTFULLY?

I answered your post with an appropriate response. Ignore it if you wish, but you cannot tell me not to speak further in this thread, to you or to anyone.

HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #16 on: Mon Oct 22, 2012 - 18:42:21 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation?  The Bible says we are servants, but it also says that it is He who chooses, not us (John 15:16).

Free will is to choice,
as ocean is to bottle of water. 

Having a choice doesn't mean you have free will.
If I control what you have to choose from, I'm in charge of your destiny.

I'll tie you down, and wake you up and tell you, choose, gun or knife.  You have a choice.  You don't have free will.

Rom 6:16, Rom 8:5-9
Nor can you fly. So what?

Nor did you use an analogy to equate to the one I gave you. 

Free will would choose life.  That isn't a choice.  The one that controls the options can give you freedom to choose and still control the outcome.  In fact, Lucifer made a career out of it.  He can tell you that you are a sinner that sinning sends you to hell. Avoid Hell, run from sin, and 359 wrong directions can you run, but only ONE direction is to God.  You have 359 WRONG choices one right one.  IF he hides the one real choice, you failed, but you got to choose.

CHOOSING is from what is available.

Free Will is to get what you desire.

Freedom to choose is an acceptable term.

But you are a slave to flesh, or a slave to God. 
You obey the mindset you belong to, flesh or God.
If you are obeying one or the other, when you belong to one or the other, your choice is somewhat eliminated.

Jesus chose death. So did a Marine or two on Iwo Jima. Your conclusion is faulty based on a wrong presumption.

You may be collecting too much of the bs you are a detector of.

When you can show the wrong presumption, and it addresses the points I made, then you can have a discusion rather than an empty proclamation. :)  Until then, you are proudly posting your opinion with no reasoning.  And it's value is directly related to the amount of reasoning.

Life is not the obvious choice, and I provided examples. Now you do some reasoning rather than stopping your thinking when you get flummoxed.

Offline fish153

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Oct 23, 2012 - 14:29:40 »
I choose eternal life. 

Which my choice amounts to nothing, if I don't have faith.  I can proclaim I have faith.  I can proclaim I believe.  My proclamation means nothing if I don't actually have it.  ONly HE knows if you have what He requires.

That is not the truth.


Ok, so you believe you can be saved without faith.  Impressive.  That must be SOME contract you negotiated with God, cause it's not what the rest of us got.
We can know exactly where we stand with God.


No you can't, unless you can see into the mind of the omniscient and omnipotent God.  You can ASSUME, and LOUDLY SHOUT/PROCLAIM that you are HIS all you want.  But if you are right or not won't be determined until you face Him at judgement.  What you think on earth in regards to your salvation is not going to force GOD to change His mind if He doesn't agree with you.

He wants us to know and has given us His assurance.


Not the point.  You don't know if you have the assurance until you have faced Him.  It says Grace comes through faith.  Many people walk around saying HIS NAME, and repeating SAVED BY HIS NAME, and assume that is FAITH.  Loud proclamations dont' make faith.  If you won't acknowledge that, we have nothing to discuss.  It's like discussing moon landings with a flat earther.

We are not like weeds blowing in the wind, hoping that we are saved. We can know without a doubt that we are King's kids.


Yes, Oedipus knew without a doubt he had taken the spoils of war too.
Narcissus was sure with NO doubt that he started upon the most beautiful person in the world as wel.  We call it HUBRIS.  You live at the mercy of and for the service of the Lord of Lords.   For you to start committing HIS actions is beyond pride.

It comes down to whether you actually believe God or not. Do you?

As per earlier statements, I'll stand on the point that you don't know what Believe is.  It's more than empty proclamations.  You can proclaim all day long.  I hate to be the one to bread it to you.  But there are more than a few of us that giggle at how you dismiss reasoning and scripture and arguments and think your PROCLAMATIONS carry weight.


Xian---
 
You avoid one scripture after another which tells us we CAN have assurance of salvation.  Here is one more:
 
"See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we ARE! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.Dear friends, NOW we ARE children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we SHALL be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:1,2)
 
Note the PRESENT tense in the above verses.  According to you we don't know whether we are Children of God until Judgment day.  The verses above flatly contradict your statement.  "NOW we ARE the children of God" John the Apostle says.   
 
You need to read and believe the scriptures.  You are allowing "great and precious promises" to slip through your fingers, while you rest in your own doubt.  Don't do that my friend.  Trust the Lord, and accept the salvation He has for you RIGHT NOW.

HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Oct 24, 2012 - 09:04:15 »
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

sounds like free will to me

Sounds like a choice, a choice that HE will enact in your life or HE won't.  Nothing holy about your choice, it doesn't make it so if you are denied.  The people in HELL CHOOSE LIFE, but a helluva lotta good it'll do them.

Choice =/= freewill.

People who will find themselves condemned to hellfire will have made the choice, even if they didn't make ANY choice. Once one dies, there is no further choice on offer.

Lively, tell me, where is the free will in this verse?

Rom 8: 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

It's saying... according to = belongs to, either the flesh or the spirit.
the mind that belongs to flesh disobeys God.
The mind of the Spirit obeys the Spirit. 

NIV uses the word CONTROL in here to capture the meaning better than the literal words that confuse the point. 

If you are "according to" in this sense, you belong to it. 

Where is the free will in this verse....

Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

He's saying that the person of the flesh can't do what he wants to do.  That isn't free Will.

The solution is in romans 8:5 and 8:9 where you obey the one you belong to.  And he points out that if the SPIRIT indwells you, the flesh /sinful nature that causes the Rom 7 dilemma is gone. 

So, please, rather than tell me I'm wrong, show me how the verses have free will in them.  Without changing words or context.

The problem of proof texting. Paul in Romans has a purpose and it isn't free will or choice. It is that God is just in letting Gentiles into the Kingdom.
You will also find that Paul is going to say "present yourselves" on a number of occassions. Don't make more of Paul's argument than he intended.

Offline robert9712000

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Oct 24, 2012 - 18:08:51 »
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

sounds like free will to me

Sounds like a choice, a choice that HE will enact in your life or HE won't.  Nothing holy about your choice, it doesn't make it so if you are denied.  The people in HELL CHOOSE LIFE, but a helluva lotta good it'll do them.

Choice =/= freewill.

People who will find themselves condemned to hellfire will have made the choice, even if they didn't make ANY choice. Once one dies, there is no further choice on offer.

Lively, tell me, where is the free will in this verse?

Rom 8: 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

It's saying... according to = belongs to, either the flesh or the spirit.
the mind that belongs to flesh disobeys God.
The mind of the Spirit obeys the Spirit. 

NIV uses the word CONTROL in here to capture the meaning better than the literal words that confuse the point. 

If you are "according to" in this sense, you belong to it. 

Where is the free will in this verse....

Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

He's saying that the person of the flesh can't do what he wants to do.  That isn't free Will.

The solution is in romans 8:5 and 8:9 where you obey the one you belong to.  And he points out that if the SPIRIT indwells you, the flesh /sinful nature that causes the Rom 7 dilemma is gone. 

So, please, rather than tell me I'm wrong, show me how the verses have free will in them.  Without changing words or context.

What makes a person in the flesh?

 A person becomes in bondage to the flesh when they sow to the flesh.

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God says over and over we can be confident in salvation thru faith in Christ.

Ephesians 3;11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 5 :9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Whats his will towards us

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Why would he say you can be confident in faith in Christ if he can then just go against his word and damn you to hell anyway,

 Did he not say in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 he said whosoever not some not a couple.So if you doubt that then you must assume God is a liar

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 Ill therefor trust that God means what he says when he says believe in Christ and you will be saved with confidence,instead of second guessing him and living life always unsure of your salvation.

HRoberson

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Oct 24, 2012 - 22:52:04 »
In an absolute sense, the proof is in the pudding - having believed, let us press on and make our election sure. Trusting God, which is a large part of what he wants, can be said to be "sure," but it remains hope rather than something that is seen.

Offline whitestone

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #21 on: Thu Oct 25, 2012 - 03:04:05 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation?  The Bible says we are servants, but it also says that it is He who chooses, not us (John 15:16).

I sure chose it :)   I'd be pretty proud or stupid not to lol. In fact, even Heaven and Earth has witnessed it!

(Deu 30:19)  I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you: life and death have I set before you, blessing and cursing: choose then life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed,


Offline Tolasonn

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Jan 28, 2014 - 09:22:06 »

Does man have free will to choose salvation?  The Bible says we are servants, but it also says that it is He who chooses, not us (John 15:16).
No one has a free will. Not even God.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Jan 28, 2014 - 10:23:44 »
No one has a free will. Not even God.

Whose will is God working under then?


Offline DaveW

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Re: Can anyone choose Salvation?
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jan 30, 2014 - 11:51:47 »
No one has a free will. Not even God.

Wow.  That is absolutely ridiculous.  You really do not know God at all, do you?