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Author Topic: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?  (Read 1810 times)

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Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:04:43 »
I am not "trolling" the thread. 

I am trying to get the discussion away from using pagan greek logic in favor of Hebraic block logic (adductive logic) which is the more biblical approach.

There is such a thing as a biblical "proof." One example is in Acts 21 when Paul was asked to prove that he did NOT teach diaspora Jews who came to faith to abandon the Mosaic observance.  His buying the sacrifices for 4 men proved it bibilcally.  (but not by Aristotelian standards)

You are joke!

We are going to ignore you from now on unless you post any PROOF with anything you claim!

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:04:43 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #36 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:06:45 »
"LiveAndLoveAll" your proofs are not proofs at all.  Once you provide your proofs, then we will reply. 

Quote
PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!

Simply asking questions does not constitute a proof.

Quote
PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

This also is not a proof.

In addition Proof2 doesn't have to do with free will, but rather with a person's nature.  Human nature determines the extent of things that a person is capable of doing.  While I can reason, laugh, and eat a sandwich, I cannot, say do things which (for example) a horse can do, such as gallop.

But let's say that what "I was created to do" means everything I would do in my life.  The implications is that I was created to disobey the ten commandments, which I have done.  How can doing what I was "created to do" (i.e. the things I have done) be an offense against God, since (supposedly) He created me to do them.  If there is no free will, then there is no sin, AND the necessary follow on we must also believe, which is that "God created people to sin".

Thus there is no point in following the ten commandments, God is horribly unjust for punishing sin, a tyrant really, and everything in my life was predetermined by God so it doesn't matter what I do.

Sorry, but that is not God.  I don't worship a tyrant God that is the necessary conclusion we must come to if we deny free will.

Without free will there is no love, and God cannot command us to love our neighbors.  Love must be a willing sacrifice or else it is not love at all.  Love doesn't exist if free will doesn't exist.

While previous experiences may influence our decisions, that doesn't mean that our decision isn't free.  It simply means that our decisions are constrained. 

Foreknowledge of what a person will do, on the part of God, is not the same as predetermination.  It is your burden to prove that they are, otherwise, your proof is not a proof at all.

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #36 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:06:45 »

Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #37 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:09:04 »
"LiveAndLoveAll" your proofs are not proofs at all.  Once you provide your proofs, then we will reply. 

Quote
PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!

Simply asking questions does not constitute a proof.

Quote
PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

This also is not a proof.

In addition Proof2 doesn't have to do with free will, but rather with a person's nature.  Human nature determines the extent of things that a person is capable of doing.  While I can reason, laugh, and eat a sandwich, I cannot, say do things which (for example) a horse can do, such as gallop.

But let's say that what "I was created to do" means everything I would do in my life.  The implications is that I was created to disobey the ten commandments, which I have done.  How can doing what I was "created to do" (i.e. the things I have done) be an offense against God, since (supposedly) He created me to do them.  If there is no free will, then there is no sin, AND God created people to sin.

Thus there is no point in following the ten commandments, God is horribly unjust for punishing sin, a tyrant really, and everything in my life was predetermined by God so it doesn't matter what I do.

Sorry, but that is not God.  I don't worship a tyrant God that is the necessary conclusion we must come to if we deny free will.

Without free will there is no love, and God cannot command us to love our neighbors.  Love must be a willing sacrifice or else it is not love at all.  Love doesn't exist if free will doesn't exist.

While previous experiences may influence our decisions, that doesn't mean that our decision isn't free.  It simply means that our decisions are constrained. 

Foreknowledge of what a person will do, on the part of God, is not the same as predetermination.  It is your burden to prove that they are, otherwise, your proof is not a proof at all.

WHERE IS ANY PROOF THAT PROVES ANY OF THIS YOU HAVE STATED?

POST it first ...THEN YOU CAN CLAIM what we have posted is not proof!

Offline Catholica

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #38 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:10:55 »
"LiveAndLoveAll" your proofs are not proofs at all.  Once you provide your proofs, then we will reply. 

Quote
PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!

Simply asking questions does not constitute a proof.

Quote
PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

This also is not a proof.

In addition Proof2 doesn't have to do with free will, but rather with a person's nature.  Human nature determines the extent of things that a person is capable of doing.  While I can reason, laugh, and eat a sandwich, I cannot, say do things which (for example) a horse can do, such as gallop.

But let's say that what "I was created to do" means everything I would do in my life.  The implications is that I was created to disobey the ten commandments, which I have done.  How can doing what I was "created to do" (i.e. the things I have done) be an offense against God, since (supposedly) He created me to do them.  If there is no free will, then there is no sin, AND God created people to sin.

Thus there is no point in following the ten commandments, God is horribly unjust for punishing sin, a tyrant really, and everything in my life was predetermined by God so it doesn't matter what I do.

Sorry, but that is not God.  I don't worship a tyrant God that is the necessary conclusion we must come to if we deny free will.

Without free will there is no love, and God cannot command us to love our neighbors.  Love must be a willing sacrifice or else it is not love at all.  Love doesn't exist if free will doesn't exist.

While previous experiences may influence our decisions, that doesn't mean that our decision isn't free.  It simply means that our decisions are constrained. 

Foreknowledge of what a person will do, on the part of God, is not the same as predetermination.  It is your burden to prove that they are, otherwise, your proof is not a proof at all.

WHERE IS ANY PROOF THAT PROVES ANY OF THIS YOU HAVE STATED?

POST it first ...THEN YOU CAN CLAIM what we have posted is not proof!

You first.  Calling something a proof doesn't make it a proof.

Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:11:13 »
How many times do we have to post on this thread...that by merely posting your own opinion...is JUST YOUR OWN OPINION!

YOU FIRST HAVE TO PROVE WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...BEFORE YOU CAN CLAIM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...IS A FACT!

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:11:13 »



Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #40 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:12:30 »
"LiveAndLoveAll" your proofs are not proofs at all.  Once you provide your proofs, then we will reply. 

Quote
PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!

Simply asking questions does not constitute a proof.

Quote
PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

This also is not a proof.

In addition Proof2 doesn't have to do with free will, but rather with a person's nature.  Human nature determines the extent of things that a person is capable of doing.  While I can reason, laugh, and eat a sandwich, I cannot, say do things which (for example) a horse can do, such as gallop.

But let's say that what "I was created to do" means everything I would do in my life.  The implications is that I was created to disobey the ten commandments, which I have done.  How can doing what I was "created to do" (i.e. the things I have done) be an offense against God, since (supposedly) He created me to do them.  If there is no free will, then there is no sin, AND God created people to sin.

Thus there is no point in following the ten commandments, God is horribly unjust for punishing sin, a tyrant really, and everything in my life was predetermined by God so it doesn't matter what I do.

Sorry, but that is not God.  I don't worship a tyrant God that is the necessary conclusion we must come to if we deny free will.

Without free will there is no love, and God cannot command us to love our neighbors.  Love must be a willing sacrifice or else it is not love at all.  Love doesn't exist if free will doesn't exist.

While previous experiences may influence our decisions, that doesn't mean that our decision isn't free.  It simply means that our decisions are constrained. 

Foreknowledge of what a person will do, on the part of God, is not the same as predetermination.  It is your burden to prove that they are, otherwise, your proof is not a proof at all.

WHERE IS ANY PROOF THAT PROVES ANY OF THIS YOU HAVE STATED?

POST it first ...THEN YOU CAN CLAIM what we have posted is not proof!

You first.  Calling something a proof doesn't make it a proof.

IT DOES WHEN YOU CANNOT PROVE OTHER WISE!

Offline winsome

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #41 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:26:38 »
How many times do we have to post on this thread...that by merely posting your own opinion...is JUST YOUR OWN OPINION!

YOU FIRST HAVE TO PROVE WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...BEFORE YOU CAN CLAIM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...IS A FACT!


EXACTLY

Now prove this statement the OP as I and others (e.g. tpm) have requested:

"God determines everything!"

All you are posting is your own opinion.



Offline DaveW

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #42 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:34:35 »
Here is an example of Hebraic block logic showing that BOTH predetermination and free will are in operation at the same time:

Ex 8.8 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron and said, “Entreat the Lord that He remove the frogs from me and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may sacrifice to the Lord.”
9 Moses said to Pharaoh, “The honor is yours to tell me: when shall I entreat for you and your servants and your people, that the frogs be destroyed from you and your houses, that they may be left only in the Nile?”

10 Then he said, “Tomorrow.” So he said, “May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God.
11 The frogs will depart from you and your houses and your servants and your people; they will be left only in the Nile.”
12 Then Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh, and Moses cried to the Lord concerning the frogs which He had inflicted upon Pharaoh.
13 The Lord did according to the word of Moses, and the frogs died out of the houses, the courts, and the fields.
14 So they piled them in heaps, and the land became foul.
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
.....
32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.
....
Ex 9.11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians as well as on all the Egyptians.
12 And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

So did Pharaoh harden his own heart (his free choice) or did God harden it?  The ONLY biblical answer is "YES."   It is fully both

In pagan greek logic that is an impossibility.  But it is entirely acceptable in Hebrew Block logic.

Now stop using pagan logic for your "proof."

Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #43 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:35:32 »
How many times do we have to post on this thread...that by merely posting your own opinion...is JUST YOUR OWN OPINION!

YOU FIRST HAVE TO PROVE WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...BEFORE YOU CAN CLAIM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...IS A FACT!


EXACTLY

Now prove this statement the OP as I and others (e.g. tpm) have requested:

"God determines everything!"

All you are posting is your own opinion.

You are spamming and trolling the thread!

Offline Helen

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #44 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:36:10 »
If there is no free will, then why are you arguing?  We were predestined to think this way and there is nothing you can do about it -- according to your philosophy.  So debate is pointless. 

Offline Helen

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:36:35 »
But he was predestined to spam the thread!

Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:46:00 »
But he was predestined to spam the thread!
See right here the mods should discipline(if they were fair) you because this is spam and trolling the thread. They ban and moderate other people for posting this kind of stuff on this forum!

Offline Catholica

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #47 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:48:44 »
But he was predestined to spam the thread!
See right here the mods should discipline(if they were fair) you because this is spam and trolling the thread. They ban and moderate other people for posting this kind of stuff on this forum!

They have no choice, they can only do the things God predetermined they would do, so unless God predetermined that they would discipline and make them fair, then they can't ban or moderate anyone/anything.

Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #48 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:49:04 »
If there is no free will, then why are you arguing?  We were predestined to think this way and there is nothing you can do about it -- according to your philosophy.  So debate is pointless.
This is nothing but your own unproven opinion...again! Which is just mere speculation at best!

Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #49 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:50:22 »
But he was predestined to spam the thread!
See right here the mods should discipline(if they were fair) you because this is spam and trolling the thread. They ban and moderate other people for posting this kind of stuff on this forum!

They have no choice, they can only do the things God predetermined they would do, so unless God predetermined that they would discipline and make them fair, then they can't ban or moderate anyone/anything.
And your point...is?

Offline Helen

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #50 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:51:36 »
Hey....we're agreeing with you!  We have no choice but to post what we are posting!  So any idea of debate is an exercise in futility, don't you think?

Offline Catholica

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #51 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:58:46 »
I don't know how someone who doesn't believe in free will can cry "injustice!" If there is no free will, there is no injustice.  Unless you believe that God is unjust.

Offline winsome

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #52 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 11:58:54 »

How many times do we have to post on this thread...that by merely posting your own opinion...is JUST YOUR OWN OPINION!

YOU FIRST HAVE TO PROVE WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...BEFORE YOU CAN CLAIM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...IS A FACT!


EXACTLY

Now prove this statement the OP as I and others (e.g. tpm) have requested:

"God determines everything!"

All you are posting is your own opinion.

You are spamming and trolling the thread!

No I am not. I am simply asking you to use the same standards that you request from others.

You have made a statement in the OP that is simply your opinion supported by no evidence.

Your so called "proofs" are based on that statement and unless you can prove the statement to be true your "proofs" have no validity.

Offline LiveandLoveAll

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 12:01:52 »

How many times do we have to post on this thread...that by merely posting your own opinion...is JUST YOUR OWN OPINION!

YOU FIRST HAVE TO PROVE WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...BEFORE YOU CAN CLAIM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID...IS A FACT!


EXACTLY

Now prove this statement the OP as I and others (e.g. tpm) have requested:

"God determines everything!"

All you are posting is your own opinion.

You are spamming and trolling the thread!

No I am not. I am simply asking you to use the same standards that you request from others.

You have made a statement in the OP that is simply your opinion supported by no evidence.

Your so called "proofs" are based on that statement and unless you can prove the statement to be true your "proofs" have no validity.
I will easily prove that what you have stated here is not true and incorrect! You cut and paste anything i have said that you say...I am not using the same standard that i request from you, and post it here.  Then prove it! My proof is...you will not be able to prove it!

Offline Helen

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #54 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 12:09:23 »
Liveandloveall, I think I have been predestined to be disgusted with your nonsense.

Offline DaveW

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #55 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 12:11:35 »
You have made a statement in the OP that is simply your opinion supported by no evidence.

Your so called "proofs" are based on that statement and unless you can prove the statement to be true your "proofs" have no validity.

Actually - Win - the OP was someone named TheKingJamesBible.  So if LiveandLoveAll is the same person I believe they are violating a TOS.

Offline fish153

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #56 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 14:24:08 »
CAN YOU

DEFEAT MY PROOF

THERE IS

NO FREE WILL?


I challenge all free will believers on all the earth to come here and

DEFEAT MY PROOFS...
God determines everything! The PREDESTINATION of EVERYTHING,
determines all FREE WILL, that anyone would ever have? And God determines all PREDESTINATION. Therefore it is a truth, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!


PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

Everything has been predetermined by God!

If you believe in FREE WILL and want to try to defeat my PROOFS...
please state your strongest argument in support of your case. Then I will post a rebuttal. We will take turns and follow the debate procedure of the thread till one can not go any further with their argument!

Posting any statement then assuming that it is the truth and should be counted as such in a debate by your opponent is absurd and worthless.... first you prove what you said as the truth IS THE TRUTH...then you can use it as the truth!

To further your argument!

Taking a verse from the bible and then posting it and expecting your opponent in a debate to automatically agree that it proves you right and them wrong is absurd and worthless. When you post a verse...you first must prove that it is true then that it prove that what you said is true! Then you can use it as the truth

In a debate...only what can be proved is accepted as truth!
Anything else is merely speculation!

Please follow the debate procedure of the thread!

Please do not troll or spam the thread!

Please do not post anything that is not on topic!

Please serious debaters only!

Thank You!

What if God predetermines that we have a choice?  God says "Thou shalt not kill" so it is obvious we were not created to murder one another.  Yet there are murderers. Did God create them to be killers when he states in his Law that we should not kill? I don't believe so.  So God has predetermined that man has a choice to obey or disobey Him.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #57 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 15:05:31 »
I am short on time, but will discuss some things with you.  Do I believe that our wills were in bondage to the devil and sin, after the fall of Adam? Yes. So, are we born again by our will? No~John 1:13.  Now, after we are born again, do we now have power over our will? You better believe that we do.  Or else, all of the commandments in the scriptures were written in vain. 

David's sin was of his own doing, God neither tempts man, nor is a partner in his sins.  I am very familiar with the doctrine of absolute predestination of the Primitive Baptist, and I reject that as heresy.  I beleive in absolute predestination in our regeneration, but not in our practical walk after regeneration. That is not to say, that God does not still protect us in our ignorance, and that he does not rule certain events in our life, apart from us not knowing it, apart from those event not working toward his eternal purpose that he purpose in Jesus Christ concerning his elect, I know that he does.  Abraham being a perfect example of that with his two wives and two sons being a perfect allegory of works of the flesh being rejected by God and the doctrine of free grace, base upon his promises to the elect seed.  God can take one event and allow it to serve several purpose at once, without us knowing it, that I know well.  But, I also know that after regeneration, our wills have been recreated after his image again, and from that point on, we have the power to do what God has commanded us to do, and if we refuse, and we can, then we suffer the consequences of our disobedience. 

I am not an absoluter of the Primitive Baptist persuasion, but an conditionalist, once regenerated  by the Spirit.  I will talk as much as you like, since I have been exposed to these things many years ago, and studying them for myself.

RB     

But he was predestined to spam the thread!
See right here the mods should discipline(if they were fair) you because this is spam and trolling the thread. They ban and moderate other people for posting this kind of stuff on this forum!

Are you not the very same person who started this thread? I would say yes.  I would love to debate you on this subject, if you would read my reply above and consider debating me on this subject, in a profitable manner.   You are doing no service to a truth that is taught in the scriptures, by using half truth and allowing others to mock, and they should, since you have no desire to present the truth of Predestination as it is taught in the scriptures. 

Offline chosenone

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #58 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 15:09:50 »
You have made a statement in the OP that is simply your opinion supported by no evidence.

Your so called "proofs" are based on that statement and unless you can prove the statement to be true your "proofs" have no validity.

Actually - Win - the OP was someone named TheKingJamesBible.  So if LiveandLoveAll is the same person I believe they are violating a TOS.
 

They are.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?
« Reply #59 on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 17:53:39 »
The OP is a troll, and has been banned and re-incarnated in a new IP address many times.

Even though the topic he posted is an interesting one, I think you will find that he will not discuss it, but only say whatever he thinks will inflame you most.

Too bad.