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Offline DigitalAttorney

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Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« on: January 06, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »
‎(Ephesians 2:8-10) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It's God's kindness that saves us, through our believing in the Gospel - this was not something we did for ourselves: but that is the gift from God. God didn't all of a sudden call you because of some particular work or culmination of works that you may have done in the past, so no one can boast, but we are His work though, having been placed in Christ Jesus to live lives filled with good works. Such good works He prepared long ago for us to do.

(James 2:14-26) My brothers, what is the gain if anyone says he has faith, but he does not have works? Is the faith able to save him?

But if a brother or a sister is naked and may be lacking in daily food, and any one of you say to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but does not give them the things the body needs, what gain is it? So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works. You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder. But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? Was not our father Abraham justified by works offering up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was made perfected. And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;" and he was called, Friend of God. You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only. But in the same way Rahab the harlot was also justified out of works, having received the messengers, and sending them out by another way.

For as the body is dead apart from the spirit, so also faith is dead apart from works.

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Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« on: January 06, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »

Offline greatdivide46

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 07:38:08 AM »
‎(Ephesians 2:8-10) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It's God's kindness that saves us, through our believing in the Gospel - this was not something we did for ourselves: but that is the gift from God. God didn't all of a sudden call you because of some particular work or culmination of works that you may have done in the past, so no one can boast, but we are His work though, having been placed in Christ Jesus to live lives filled with good works. Such good works He prepared long ago for us to do.
I agree that it is God's kindness that saves us.  It is not because of anything we did for ourselves.  Our salvation is indeed a gift from God.  However, I don't believe that God all of a sudden, out of the blue, just zapped us with salvation for no reason whatsoever.  Even in the world when one offers a gift the one receiving the gift has to do something to receive the gift even its nothing more than reaching out their hand and taking it.  A gift cannot be given with absolutely no conditions whatsoever.  Maybe only one condition, but not no conditions.  Therefore, I believe that God asks us to meet certain conditions prior to salvation, too.  Why, I don't know because He certainly could just zap us with salvation even if we didn't want it.

I feel like I didn't get my thoughts down all that well in this post, but I'll leave it as is.
greatdivide46

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 07:38:08 AM »

Offline DigitalAttorney

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2012, 08:27:25 AM »
DigitalAttorney:
Digital Attorney ‎(Ephesians 2:8-10) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It's God's kindness that saves us, through our believing in the Gospel - this was not something we did for ourselves: but that is the gift from God. God didn't all of a sudden call you because of some particular work or culmination of works that you may have done in the past, so no one can boast, but we are His work though, having been placed in Christ Jesus to live lives filled with good works. Such good works He prepared long ago for us to do.

(James 2:14-26) My brothers, what is the gain if anyone says he has faith, but he does not have works? Is the faith able to save him?

But if a brother or a sister is naked and may be lacking in daily food, and any one of you say to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but does not give them the things the body needs, what gain is it? So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works. You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder. But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? Was not our father Abraham justified by works offering up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was made perfected. And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;" and he was called, Friend of God. You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only. But in the same way Rahab the harlot was also justified out of works, having received the messengers, and sending them out by another way.

For as the body is dead apart from the spirit, so also faith is dead apart from works.
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greatdivide46:
greatdivide46 I agree that it is God's kindness that saves us.  It is not because of anything we did for ourselves.  Our salvation is indeed a gift from God.  However, I don't believe that God all of a sudden, out of the blue, just zapped us with salvation for no reason whatsoever.  Even in the world when one offers a gift the one receiving the gift has to do something to receive the gift even its nothing more than reaching out their hand and taking it.  A gift cannot be given with absolutely no conditions whatsoever.  Maybe only one condition, but not no conditions.  Therefore, I believe that God asks us to meet certain conditions prior to salvation, too.  Why, I don't know because He certainly could just zap us with salvation even if we didn't want it.

I feel like I didn't get my thoughts down all that well in this post, but I'll leave it as is.
____________________________________________ ______________________________
DigitalAttorney:
DigitalAttorney
Quote
greatdivide46: "I agree that it is God's kindness that saves us.  It is not because of anything we did for ourselves.  Our salvation is indeed a gift from God.  However, I don't believe that God all of a sudden, out of the blue, just zapped us with salvation for no reason whatsoever.  Even in the world when one offers a gift the one receiving the gift has to do something to receive the gift even its nothing more than reaching out their hand and taking it."

Many people love to quote Ephesians 2:8-9 these days and totally neglect verse 10, thus distorting Scripture. When we complete the context of that group of verses as I posted them it shold be clearly evident to all that when we come to Christ there’s more than just reaching out and accept the gift. "We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

‎(James 2:14) "My brothers, what is the gain if anyone says he has faith, but he does not have works? Is the faith able to save him?"?

Quote
greatdivide46: “A gift cannot be given with absolutely no conditions whatsoever.  Maybe only one condition, but not no conditions.  Therefore, I believe that God asks us to meet certain conditions prior to salvation, too.  Why, I don't know because He certainly could just zap us with salvation even if we didn't want it.

p.rehbein

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 06:15:49 PM »
Im my opinion only I suppose, your formula is a wee bit in error.

"Faith (w/Works) = Salvation"

I believe the forumla should be.

"Faith + Grace = Salvation, and once we have received this precious gift Obedience (good works) = the fruit of salvaiton.

.............just my thoughts..............


Offline DigitalAttorney

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 06:20:59 PM »
Im my opinion only I suppose, your formula is a wee bit in error.  Faith + Grace = Salvation

(James 2:17) So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 06:20:59 PM »



p.rehbein

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2012, 07:52:41 PM »
Im my opinion only I suppose, your formula is a wee bit in error.  Faith + Grace = Salvation

(James 2:17) So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.


Doesn't address the problem with your formula in my opinion.  A tree that produces no "fruit" is still a tree, although it's value may well be reduced to that of "firewood."  Works are a "fruit" of Salvation; to best understand this, remove "faith" from your formula and you would have (w/Works) = Salvation.  In my opinion, there is no good work that any man can do that will make him deserving of Salvation.  Man can do all the good works he wishes, but he will never achieve Salvation because of them.

Not saying that good works aren't important in a Christians life, simply saying that the good works we do are a "fruit" of our Salvation and not part of the Salvation formula. 

p.rehbein

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2012, 08:00:52 PM »
Faith, n.  1. Confidence.  2.  Religious belief.  3.  Loyalty.  ---faith’less, adj.
Faith’ful, adj.  1.  Loyal.  2.  Having religious belief.  3. Copying accurately.  ---faith’fully, adv.  Faith’ful-ness, n.
Be-lief’, n. 1.  Thing believed.  2.  Conviction.  3.  Faith.
Be-lieve’, v., -lieved, -lieving.  1.  Trust.  2.  Accept as true.  3.  Regard as likely.  ---be-live’a-ble, adj.  be-live’er, n.
 
John 3:11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.  12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?  13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.  14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life……………..18) He that believeth on him is not condemned:  but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 4:14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life…………………..37) And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.  Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.  38) And ye have not his word abiding in you:  for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.  39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testify of me.  40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.  41) I receive not honour from men.  42) But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.  43) I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not:  if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,.  44) How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?  45) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father:  there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.  46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me:  for he wrote of me.  47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger:  and he that believeth on me shall never thirst……………….47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life…………….48) I am the bread of life.

John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.  37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me:  and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  38) For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  39) And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,  but should raise it up again at the last day.  40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  8) For every one that asketh ,receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Galatians 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ....... 5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  …… 7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham ………….. 9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.  10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:  for it is written, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.  11) But that no man is justified by the law, in the sight of God, it is evident:  for:  The just shall live by faith.  12) And the law is not of faith:  but The man that doeth them shall live in them …………….. 14) That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ:  that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith …………….. 18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:  but God gave it to Abraham by promise.  19) Wherefore then serveth the law?  It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator …………..  21) Is the law then against the promises of God?  God forbid:  for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.  22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,  that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  …………  24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:4) But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.  5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.  6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.  7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Galatians 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  ……….. 4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.  5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  …………… 14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. …………… 18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved: ) …………..8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:  it is a gift of God; 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. ……. 15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; …………. 18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; …………. 

Ephesians 3:17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism.  6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. …………. 13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they like in wait to deceive;


1st Thessalonians 5:15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.  16) Rejoice evermore.  17) Pray without ceasing.  18) In every thing give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.  19) Quench not the Spirit.  20) Despise not prophesying.  21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.  23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1st Timothy 1:8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.
1st Timothy 6:11) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.  12) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2nd Timothy 2:11) It is a faithful saying:  For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:  12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:  if we deny him, he also will deny us.  13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful:  he cannot deny himself. ………… 15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  16) But shun profane and vain babblings:  for they will increase unto more ungodliness…………. 22) Flee also youthful lusts; but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Titus 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. 
Titus 3:4) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.  5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;  6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 

Offline DigitalAttorney

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 08:36:51 PM »
Im my opinion only I suppose, your formula is a wee bit in error.  Faith + Grace = Salvation

(James 2:17) So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.

Works are a "fruit" of Salvation

The problem is your understanding of the Gospel. You don't have salvation yet:

[Romans 8:24-25] For in this hope; we have salvation. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

You have been called to salvation, note received it, just as these people have been called:

(Mark 4:13-20) Jesus asked them, "Don't you understand this story? How, then, will you understand any of the stories I use as illustrations? "The farmer plants the word. Some people are like seeds that were planted along the road. Whenever they hear the word, Satan comes at once and takes away the word that was planted in them. Other people are like seeds that were planted on rocky ground. Whenever they hear the word, they accept it at once with joy. But they don't develop any roots. They last for a short time. When suffering or persecution comes along because of the word, they immediately fall from faith. Other people are like seeds planted among thornbushes. They hear the word, but the worries of life, the deceitful pleasures of riches, and the desires for other things take over. They choke the word so that it can't produce anything.

And if you have ever told any of those people described those verses though that they were, "Once Saved Always Saved" and they never returned to faith in Christ , then you have lied to them.

The bottom line is this:

(Matthew 19:16-19) Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?

p.rehbein

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 06:35:43 AM »
[The problem is your understanding of the Gospel. You don't have salvation yet:]

 ::pondering::, as you are a fairly new member, I will ignore this comment.  You see it is in direct violation of the Rules of The Forums.  It's a real "no-no" to question the salvation of any member here.  But, as I said, I will ignore it, because you probably have not read all the rules of the Foums here at Grace Centered.   ::smile::

Now, as for my understanding of scripture being the problem, well, it may be for you (as you have your understanding, and I have mine, and they may not agree), but because my understanding doesn't agree with yours does not make mine explicitly wrong, just as your understanding isn't always explicitly right.  As you spend time here, you will realize that we have folks here who are convinced that "ONLY THEIR" understanding of Scripture is the right one.  They believe ONLY THEY have been given the power/gift   to interpret Scriptue for the rest of us.  I sure hope you are not going to add to this growing list.............  ::prayinghard::

As for once saved, always saved, I do not teach it/believe it.........so your understanding there is askewed just a wee bit.  Do not assume to know what others believe, ask them!  Then you will have achieved understanding.

As you are simply proposing the same "faith/works" argument that has been discussed here on Grace Centered since it's inception, I was hoping you could shed some new light on the argument, but there has been no evidence of this in your comments so far.  You might use the "Search" option of the Forums and read a few of the threads here concerning "faith vs. works" as they apply to Salvaton.

God bless.................and maybe it would be a good idea to read the rules?



Offline DigitalAttorney

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 06:46:30 AM »
 ::playingguitar::

Offline Teresa

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 07:22:28 PM »
Im my opinion only I suppose, your formula is a wee bit in error.

"Faith (w/Works) = Salvation"

I believe the forumla should be.

"Faith + Grace = Salvation, and once we have received this precious gift Obedience (good works) = the fruit of salvaiton.

.............just my thoughts..............


Actually that is not entirely correct.

Grace means salvation or rather that grace is what is needed for salvation.

If you say that faith comes before grace, then you are basically saying that that faith was of your own conjuring.  If this is is so, then you are basically saying that salvation is entirely up to you. After all you came up with the faith on your own steam.

But St Paul is clear that we are saved by Grace.  Grace comes both in the form of faith and in the form of works.

Grace preceeds faith and not the other way around.

A man can say that his work will save him and that would be perfectly okay so long as he acknowledges that he is able to do these good works because of God's grace.  On the other hand, the man who says he is saved by faith but thinks that this faith is his and due solely to him, is in fact going against St Paul's teaching that one is saved by grace.

God initiates and we respond.  This action of God is grace.

It is important to remember that salvation is firstly GOD's initiative. He gives us both the faith and the works (or both) to accomplish our transformation into the image of Christ.

Salvation is all about theosis, our transformation into sons and daughters of God  - the image of His Son.  Works is transformative because love and obedience is transformative and so works leads to salvation.

There are many who claim belief in Christ and yet are so quick to disobey his commands when the command becomes inconvenient.  This habitual disobedience is also transformative but it goes the other way - conforms us to the image of the one who defied God.

Obedience in Love of the Lord is the key.


Peace and All Good

Teresa
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 07:57:08 PM »
[The problem is your understanding of the Gospel. You don't have salvation yet:]

 ::pondering::, as you are a fairly new member, I will ignore this comment.  You see it is in direct violation of the Rules of The Forums.  It's a real "no-no" to question the salvation of any member here.  But, as I said, I will ignore it, because you probably have not read all the rules of the Foums here at Grace Centered.   ::smile::
I think what Digital Attorney means is that you are not saved yet. And you are not. You are being saved but you are not saved yet.  The only time one can say that one is saved is when one is already in heaven.

In the meantime, we have heard the Good News and Christ is in the process of transforming us so that in the end we are completely transformed into His image. Then and only then, can we say that we are saved because when we get to that stage, back sliding and sinning is a thing of the past.

We cannot say the horse has completed the race until it gets past the finish line.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Glorious

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 08:47:07 PM »
Grace means salvation or rather that grace is what is needed for salvation.

Grace does not mean salvation. Rather, grace/truth is needed for salvation in a saint who has faith already. That is how come we, through experiencing faith, receive the grace by which we are saved.


If you say that faith comes before grace, then you are basically saying that that faith was of your own conjuring.  If this is is so, then you are basically saying that salvation is entirely up to you. After all you came up with the faith on your own steam.

Scripture gives us the sequence. Romans 5:2 declares: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So, faith comes first and it is the beginning/framing works of Christ/God on earth/heaven. By faith we gain access into grace. Having started out in faith before gaining access to stand in grace, we also rejoice in grace while hoping for the glory of God.

Thus, a sequence is establish by scripture: Faith --> Grace --> Glory.

Salvation is an eternally perfect inheritance that is of the glory of God. Yet, by grace, the Holy Spirit gives us a pledge (a token) of that inheritance. That is how come we are saved by grace... it is a token salvation... while hoping for the glory (in which is the eternal salvation) of God.


But St Paul is clear that we are saved by Grace.  Grace comes both in the form of faith and in the form of works.

Faith and grace are two different gifts by God. Abraham is the father of faith, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. To this world and pertaining to the flesh, Abraham came first before Jesus Christ did. It wasn't so by happenstance, it was so because it is a pattern ordained by God so that faith might come before grace.

On earth, faith and grace, in and of themselves, are works by Jesus Christ pertaining to the flesh and the spirit respectively. Those works are given to us as gifts.

Jesus Christ does not give us His faith and grace for us to put them in a vault. His faith and grace (works pertaining to His flesh and Spirit) must exercise in us becoming, or rather demonstrating, His works through our flesh and spirit unto fruitfulness.

When we exercise the works of Christ given us, we are judged unto justification by them.

That is what James means by saying "faith without works is dead"... the gift of faith in us is dormant if we do not exercise same unto fruitfulness.


Grace and peace from God and from the Christ unto all!

Offline Teresa

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 09:11:53 PM »
Grace means salvation or rather that grace is what is needed for salvation.

Grace does not mean salvation. Rather, grace/truth is needed for salvation in a saint who has faith already. That is how come we, through experiencing faith, receive the grace by which we are saved.
Yes, that is much better way of putting it. Thank you.

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If you say that faith comes before grace, then you are basically saying that that faith was of your own conjuring.  If this is is so, then you are basically saying that salvation is entirely up to you. After all you came up with the faith on your own steam.

Scripture gives us the sequence. Romans 5:2 declares: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So, faith comes first and it is the beginning/framing works of Christ/God on earth/heaven. By faith we gain access into grace. Having started out in faith before gaining access to stand in grace, we also rejoice in grace while hoping for the glory of God. Thus, a sequence is establish by scripture: Faith --> Grace --> Glory
Actually not. Before even we had faith, Grace was already there because Grace is what comes from Christ's Life, Death and Resurrection.

Even before you believed in Christ, Christ has already given you the grace to believe.  That you believe is a gift. It is not something that you conjured up by yourself. That you were placed in the path of someone who will transmit the Gospel to you is grace.

Grace comes first because God comes first.
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Salvation is an eternally perfect inheritance that is of the glory of God. Yet, by grace, the Holy Spirit gives us a pledge (a token) of that inheritance. That is how come we are saved by grace... it is a token salvation... while hoping for the glory (in which is the eternal salvation) of God.
I think where the problem arise is in the concept of salvation.

Many people think that salvation is "getting into heaven" because they have this concept that heaven is a physical place.

Salvation is essentially our deification, our transformation into sons and daughters of God.  God will not pluck us from this earth and transport us into heaven when we die just because we believed.

Rather, throughout our lifetime, God showers us with the graces that will enable us to be conformed to His and thus transformed into the image of His Son.

This is a very important distinction. It is only when we are able to undestand this distinction that we can make sense of the Bible in its entirety.

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Faith and grace are two different gifts by God. Abraham is the father of faith, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. To this world and pertaining to the flesh, Abraham came first before Jesus Christ did. It wasn't so by happenstance, it was so because it is a pattern ordained by God so that faith might come before grace.
Actually faith is a grace although a more correct phrasing would be faith is both a grace and a response.  Reality bears this out.  We come to faith because we have heard. That fact alone of being given the chance to hear is grace.

Grace in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.
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On earth, faith and grace, in and of themselves, are works by Jesus Christ pertaining to the flesh and the spirit respectively. Those works are given to us as gifts. 
If grace means gift, then faith is also grace because it is a gift. No one comes to faith of his own accord.  As Jesus Himself said, no one can come to Him unless drawn by the Father. That drawing which comes before faith is grace.
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Jesus Christ does not give us His faith and grace for us to put them in a vault. His faith and grace (works pertaining to His flesh and Spirit) must exercise in us becoming, or rather demonstrating, His works through our flesh and spirit unto fruitfulness.

When we exercise the works of Christ given us, we are judged unto justification by them.

That is what James means by saying "faith without works is dead"... the gift of faith in us is dormant if we do not exercise same unto fruitfulness.

I would say Amen to that.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Faith (w/ Works) = Salvation
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 03:02:23 PM »
Im my opinion only I suppose, your formula is a wee bit in error.

"Faith (w/Works) = Salvation"

I believe the forumla should be.

"Faith + Grace = Salvation, and once we have received this precious gift Obedience (good works) = the fruit of salvaiton.

.............just my thoughts..............


Actually that is not entirely correct.

Grace means salvation or rather that grace is what is needed for salvation.

If you say that faith comes before grace, then you are basically saying that that faith was of your own conjuring.  If this is is so, then you are basically saying that salvation is entirely up to you. After all you came up with the faith on your own steam.

But St Paul is clear that we are saved by Grace.  Grace comes both in the form of faith and in the form of works.

Grace preceeds faith and not the other way around.

A man can say that his work will save him and that would be perfectly okay so long as he acknowledges that he is able to do these good works because of God's grace.  On the other hand, the man who says he is saved by faith but thinks that this faith is his and due solely to him, is in fact going against St Paul's teaching that one is saved by grace.

God initiates and we respond.  This action of God is grace.

It is important to remember that salvation is firstly GOD's initiative. He gives us both the faith and the works (or both) to accomplish our transformation into the image of Christ.

Salvation is all about theosis, our transformation into sons and daughters of God  - the image of His Son.  Works is transformative because love and obedience is transformative and so works leads to salvation.

There are many who claim belief in Christ and yet are so quick to disobey his commands when the command becomes inconvenient.  This habitual disobedience is also transformative but it goes the other way - conforms us to the image of the one who defied God.

Obedience in Love of the Lord is the key.


Peace and All Good

Teresa


If God gives us the faith to get saved, Then that makes His a respecter of people, And that makes His a sinner, SO YOU BELIEVE  GOD IS A SINNER.

What you are saying is, Those that get saved is because God gave them the faith, And those who don't get saved is because God didn't give them the faith.

If you had two children and they were trapped in a burning house and you could savem them both but only chose to save one of them, That would make you evil.
But that is what you are saying about God.

Everyone has the abiltity and free choice to hear the gospel and either receive it or reject it, It has nothing to do with God, He has done all that needs to be done,.
Now God's people should preach the gospel, And let the people either receive it or reject it fron a free choice.


Works has nothing to do with salvation, Eph 2: 8--9. Titus 3: 5.

Every false religion has to do works because they don't and can't believe and accept the simplicity of the gospel.