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Author Topic: I Find It Interesting  (Read 499 times)

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raggthyme2012

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I Find It Interesting
« on: January 06, 2012, 11:52:40 AM »
With regards to the Catholic religion, I find it interesting that their own Justin Martyr held a very different view of the one true God and His Son. In Dialogue With Trypho and (I believe it was) his First Apology it is quite clear that he worshipped Christ as God because He is God's only begotten but that he viewed the Father alone as the one true, unbegotten, ineffable God (above whom there is no other) who at some point in time begat a Beginning, a certain rational power, as fire begets a flame. He also indicates that he considered the Spirit to be none other than the Son Himself. This doesn't fall in line with the idea that God has eternally existed as three distinct persons in one God.

When I brought this up to a certain devout Catholic he said it was ok for Justin not to affirm the Trinity doctrine since it had not been fully formed yet. But that anyone who does not adhere to it today is damned because they do not hold tight to the dogma's of the one true church (my paraphrase). But my point was this: if the Bible is our authority, it should have been evident to Justin, that is, if this doctrine were actually taught in the Scriptures. I'm not sure whether I agree with Justin or not, but I did find it interesting that he is regarded as an early father of the faith yet his view of God is in opposition to the Trinitarian belief.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:09:12 PM by LightHammer »

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I Find It Interesting
« on: January 06, 2012, 11:52:40 AM »

Offline Teresa

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Re: I Find It Interesting
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 06:57:47 PM »
With regards to the Catholic religion, I find it interesting that their own Justin Martyr held a very different view of the one true God and His Son. In Dialogue With Trypho and (I believe it was) his First Apology it is quite clear that he worshipped Christ as God because He is God's only begotten but that he viewed the Father alone as the one true, unbegotten, ineffable God (above whom there is no other) who at some point in time begat a Beginning, a certain rational power, as fire begets a flame. He also indicates that he considered the Spirit to be none other than the Son Himself. This doesn't fall in line with the idea that God has eternally existed as three distinct persons in one God.

When I brought this up to a certain devout Catholic he said it was ok for Justin not to affirm the Trinity doctrine since it had not been fully formed yet. But that anyone who does not adhere to it today is damned because they do not hold tight to the dogma's of the one true church (my paraphrase). But my point was this: if the Bible is our authority, it should have been evident to Justin, that is, if this doctrine were actually taught in the Scriptures. I'm not sure whether I agree with Justin or not, but I did find it interesting that he is regarded as an early father of the faith yet his view of God is in opposition to the Trinitarian belief.

There is a common misconception that Christian Doctrine was something that was settled at the time of Christ and the writing of the Bible but it was not.

As the Christian community pondered and prayed, these doctrines came to be formulated.  Most of the time, the doctrines are a result of heresies that have sprung and were in response to them.

The definitive formulation of the Doctrine of the Trinity was at the Council of Nicea in the 4th Century and this formulation is a result of discussions among bishops of the Catholic Church. Justin Martyr lived in the 2nd century, roughly 200 years before the council so its understandable that the Justin did not have a very clear understanding of the relatinship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  As a matter of fact the sources of most heresies were priests and bishops as these try to come to a deeper understanding of what the faith means.

Even St Augustine and St Thomas, two shining examples of brilliant minds in the Catholic Church get it wrong as well.  That is why we have the magisterium and it is the magiterium that pronounces what is and is not true.

It must also be borne in mind that around about this time, the Canon of the Bible was being set.

This in fact illustrate the strength of the structure of authority within the Church.  Not every Tom, Dick and Harry can come up with their own doctrine which is what we see now in the different protestant denominations.


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Re: I Find It Interesting
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 06:57:47 PM »

Offline epiphanius

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Re: I Find It Interesting
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 02:59:32 PM »
... my point was this: if the Bible is our authority, it should have been evident to Justin, that is, if this doctrine were actually taught in the Scriptures. I'm not sure whether I agree with Justin or not, but I did find it interesting that he is regarded as an early father of the faith yet his view of God is in opposition to the Trinitarian belief.

Ragg,

I don't think it is fair or accurate to say that Justin's view of God is in opposition to the Trinitarian belief. Just because he didn't express it as fully as the Fathers of the First Council of Constantinople--two centuries later--doesn't mean his attempts to explain the Church's belief in this regard were somehow deficient or invalid.

It is, however, a reminder that all human expression of divine truth falls short of the reality of God, and that we easily find ourselves in conflict over these human expressions, when our real error is that we allow them to become obstacles to our unity as believers.

Offline 3rd Heaven

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Re: I Find It Interesting
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 07:07:30 PM »
With regards to the Catholic religion, I find it interesting that their own Justin Martyr held a very different view of the one true God and His Son. In Dialogue With Trypho and (I believe it was) his First Apology it is quite clear that he worshipped Christ as God because He is God's only begotten but that he viewed the Father alone as the one true, unbegotten, ineffable God (above whom there is no other) who at some point in time begat a Beginning, a certain rational power, as fire begets a flame. He also indicates that he considered the Spirit to be none other than the Son Himself. This doesn't fall in line with the idea that God has eternally existed as three distinct persons in one God.

When I brought this up to a certain devout Catholic he said it was ok for Justin not to affirm the Trinity doctrine since it had not been fully formed yet. But that anyone who does not adhere to it today is damned because they do not hold tight to the dogma's of the one true church (my paraphrase). But my point was this: if the Bible is our authority, it should have been evident to Justin, that is, if this doctrine were actually taught in the Scriptures. I'm not sure whether I agree with Justin or not, but I did find it interesting that he is regarded as an early father of the faith yet his view of God is in opposition to the Trinitarian belief.

I'm not Catholic but respect them as valid Christians. 

To answer your question I remind you that Jesus was prophesied through out the OT yet the Jews missed it!

If you follow the history of God's people and how He communicates with them and how every thing unfolds you will see not every thing is evident to the people at the time as it is for us reading it! In fact even when Jesus would tell them some thing point blank, some understood, some did not.

The Trinity  is no exception! And truth be told, we may not even have the most accurate rendering of what the Trinity is! What we do have is the best we have for our time and level of understanding.

Keep in mind no matter where we are in the time frame of God's plan, we the creation, only see in part and understand in part.