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Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #175 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 11:00:18 »
continued

Enoch 60:3-5 The angel, who proceeded with me, said, These are the measures of the righteous; and cords shall the righteous bring, that they may trust in the name of the Lord of spirits for ever and ever. 4The elect shall begin to dwell with the elect. 5And these are the measures which shall be given to faith, and which shall strengthen the words of righteousness.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Enoch 56:5 Henceforward shall the saints be told to seek in (From) heaven the secrets of righteousness, (and) the portion of faith; for like the sun has it arisen upon the earth,

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, (from heaven) whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Enoch 48:2-5 In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days. 3Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits.A support shall He be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations. 4He shall be the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All, who dwell on earth, shall fall down and worship before him; shall bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the name of the Lord of spirits. 5Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.

Ennoch 61:10 for from the beginning the Son of man existed

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
Enoch 48A:1 Wisdom is poured forth like water, and glory fails not before him for ever and ever; for potent is he in all the secrets of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the secret wisdom of God, we speak God's wisdom in a mystery. which was hidden in former times, though he made it for our benefit before the world began.

Colossians 2:3 In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Enoch 48A: 2-3 the Elect One 2stands before the Lord of spirits; and his glory is for ever and ever; and his power from generation to generation. 3With him dwells the spirit of intellectual wisdom, the spirit of instruction and of power,


Enoch 51:6-9 In those days men shall not be saved by gold and by silver. 7Nor shall they have it power in their to secure themselves, and to flee. 8There shall be neither iron for was, nor a coat of mail for the breast. 9Copper shall be useless; useless also that which neither rusts nor consumes away; and lead shall not be coveted.

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days

Enoch 61:18 The saints and the elect have arisen from the earth, have left off to depress their countenances, and have been clothed with the garment of life. That garment of life is with the Lord of spirits, in whose presence your garment shall not wax old, nor shall your glory diminish.


Enoch 68:9-13 The name of the fourth is Penemue: he discovered to the children of men bitterness and sweetness; 10And pointed out to them every secret of their wisdom. 11He taught men to understand writing, and the use of ink and paper. 12Therefore numerous have been those who have gone astray from every period of the world, even to this day. 13For men were not born for this, thus with pen and with ink to confirm their faith;
Enoch 83:1 I lifted up my hands in righteousness, and blessed the holy, and the Great One. I spoke with the breath of my mouth, and with a tongue of flesh, which God has formed for all the sons of mortal men, that with it they may speak; giving them breath, a mouth, and a tongue to converse with.

1 Timothy 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

(And what does Enoch pray with his holy hands raised?)

Enoch 83:2-4 Blessed are you, O Lord, the King, great and powerful in your greatness, Lord of all the creatures of heaven, King of kings, God of the whole world, whose reign, whose kingdom, and whose majesty endure for ever and ever. From generation to generation shall your dominion exist. All the heavens are your throne forever, and all the earth your footstool forever and forever. 4For you have made them, and over all you reign. No act whatsoever exceeds your power. With your wisdom is unchangeable; nor from your throne and from your presence is it ever averted. You know all things, see and hear them; nor is anything concealed from you; for you perceive all things.
Enoch 91:3 ]Let the righteous man arise from slumber; let him arise, and proceed in the path of righteousness, in all its paths; and let him advance in goodness and eternal clemency. Mercy shall be showed to the righteous man; upon him shall be conferred integrity and power forever. In goodness and in righteousness shall he exist, and shall walk in everlasting light; but sin shall perish in eternal darkness, nor be seen from that time forward for evermore.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Corinthians 15:34 wake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Enoch 93:7 Those, too, who acquire gold and silver, shall justly and suddenly perish. Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed; because you have not remembered the Most High in the days of your prosperity.

James 5:1-3 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
Enoch 96:6-8 Woe to you who squander silver and gold, not obtained in righteousness, and say, We are rich, possess wealth, and have acquired everything which we can desire. 7Now then will we do whatsoever we are disposed to do; for we have amassed silver; our barns are full, and the husbandmen of our families are like overflowing water. 8Like water shall your falsehood pass away; for your wealth will not be permanent, but shall suddenly ascend from you, because you have obtained it all iniquitously; to extreme malediction shall you be delivered up.

Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Enoch 104:2 And that remuneration (gathering)shall take place over the whole earth; for I and my Son will for ever hold communion with them in the paths of uprightness, while they are still alive. Peace shall be yours. Rejoice, children of integrity, in the truth.(The gathering here is clearly the millenial gathering)

John 6:53-58 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Enoch 13:6 Beseeching me to write for them a memorial of supplication, that they might obtain forgiveness; and that I might make the memorial of their prayer ascend up before the God of heaven; because they could not themselves thenceforwards address him, nor raise up their eyes to heaven on account of the disgraceful offence for which they were judged.

Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Enoch 37:2 And let not us, who come after, obstruct the beginning of wisdom.Until the present period never has there been given before the Lord of spirits that which I have received, wisdom according the capacity of my intellect, and according to the pleasure of the Lord of spirits; that which I have received from him, a portion of life eternal.

(Obstruct = Alter, or stop up, or obscure, Jesus accused the Pharisees of this very crime.)

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered


Enoch 38:2-5 When righteousness shall be manifested in the presence of the righteous themselves, who will be elected for their good works duly weighed by the Lord of spirits; and when the light of the righteous and the elect, who dwell on earth, shall be manifested; where will the habitation of sinners be? And where the place of rest for those who have rejected the Lord of spirits? It would have been better for them, had they never been born.

Romans 8:18-19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Enoch 39:1[In those days shall the elect and holy race descend from the upper heavens. (This is referring to the second coming and the millenial reign of Christ)

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself (And the elect and the holy race) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God (This occurs at the millenial reign.)
Enoch 39:4-12 There I saw another vision; I saw the habitations and resting places of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their resting places with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, and praying for the sons of men; while righteousness like water flowed before them, and mercy like dew was scattered over the earth. And thus shall it be with them for ever and for ever.At that time my eyes beheld the dwelling of the elect, of truth, faith, and righteousness. 6Countless shall be the number of the holy and the elect, in the presence of God for ever and for ever.7Their residence I beheld under the wings of the Lord of spirits. All the holy and the elect sung before him, in appearance like a blaze of fire; their mouths being full of blessings, and their lips glorifying the name of the Lord of spirits. And righteousness incessantly dwelt before him. 8There was I desirous of remaining, and my soul longed for that habitation There was my antecedent inheritance (This is the foretaste of our inheritance Paul speaks of.) ; for thus had I prevailed before the Lord of spirits. At that time I glorified and extolled the name of the Lord of spirits with blessing and with praise; for he has established it with blessing and with praise, according to his own good pleasure. 10That place long did my eyes contemplate. I blessed and said, Blessed be he, blessed from the beginning for ever. In the beginning, before the world was created, and without end is his knowledge. 11What is this world? Of every existing generation those shall bless you who do not spiritually sleep but stand before your glory, blessing, glorifying, exalting you, and saying, The holy, holy, Lord of spirits, fills the whole world of spirits. 12There my eyes beheld all who, without sleeping, stand before him and bless him, saying, Blessed be you, and blessed be the name of God for ever and for ever. Then my countenance became changed, until I was incapable of seeing.(There are numerous verses in the new testament about us being changed and receving a glorious body)

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.]In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

(The translators have intentionally misinterpreted the word dwelling place or habitation as the carnal, earthly and lust of the flesh, and love of the things of the world word “Mansion

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #175 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 11:00:18 »

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #176 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 11:01:33 »
continued

Enoch 61:2-3 2The Lord of spirits sat upon the throne of his glory. 3And the spirit of righteousness was poured out over him. The word of his mouth shall destroy all the sinners and all the ungodly, who shall perish at his presence.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Enoch 61:8-10 One portion of them shall look upon another. They shall be astonished, and shall humble their countenance; And trouble shall seize them, when they shall behold this Son of woman sitting upon the throne of his glory. Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify him who has dominion over all things, him who was concealed; for from the beginning the Son of man existed in secret, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of his power, and revealed to the elect. (Jesus Christ)
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(This is a reference to entire chapters the book of Enoch where in graphic detail the sins of 200 angels that cohabited with women are discussed – their utter corruption of man, their offspring of flesh and spirit and their destruction, and the judgment that fell upon these angels.)
Enoch 70:13-15 Then I fell upon my face, while all my flesh was dissolved, and my spirit became changed. 14 (Being changed) I cried out with a loud voice, with a powerful spirit, blessing, glorifying, and exalting. 15And those blessings, which proceeded from my mouth, became acceptable in the presence of the Ancient of days.

(This is another passage telling us of Enoch experiencing worshipping God in Spirit an in truth.)

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(Note that only after this change in Enoch’s spirit occurred was he able to cry out in a loud voice with a powerful spirit blessing glorifying and exalting that was acceptable to the Lord. Or songs worship and praise fall woefully short – our praise and worship are carnal and would seem to primarily benefit ourselves – adjusting our spirit so we can receive of God’s presence.)
Enoch 79:2 And all things have I revealed to you. You see the sun, the moon, and those which conduct the stars of heaven, which cause all their operations, seasons, and arrivals to return. 3In the days of sinners the years shall be shortened. 4Their seed shall be backward in their prolific soil; and everything done on earth shall be subverted, and disappear in its season. The rain shall be restrained, and heaven shall stand still. 5In those days the fruits of the earth shall be late, and not flourish in their season; and in their season the fruits of the trees shall be withholden. 6The moon shall change its laws, and not be seen at its proper period. But in those days shall heaven be seen; and barrenness shall take place in the borders of the great chariots in the west. Heaven shall shine more than when illuminated by the orders of light; while many chiefs among the stars of authority shall err, perverting their ways and works. 7Those shall not appear in their season, who commanded them, and all the classes of the stars shall be shut up against sinners. 8The thoughts of those who dwell on the earth shall transgress within them; and they shall be perverted in all their ways. 9They shall transgress, and think themselves (85) gods; while evil shall be multiplied among them. 10And punishment shall come upon them, so that all of them shall be destroyed.

Isaiah 13:9-11 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Ezekiel 32:6-8 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Joel 2:9-11 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Matthew 24:28-30 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 8:6-13 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


Enoch 80:6 At that time I said, Blessed is the man, who shall die righteous and good, against whom no catalogue of crime has been written, and with whom iniquity is not found.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Enoch 80:8 Explain everything to Mathusala your son; and inform all your children, that no flesh shall be justified before the Lord; for he is their Creator.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Enoch 96:23 Woe to you who frustrate the word of the righteous; for to you there shall be no hope of life.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Enoch 96 24-25 Woe to you who write down the word of falsehood, and the word of the wicked; for their falsehood they record, that they may hear and not forget folly. To them there shall be no peace; but they shall surely die suddenly.
Enoch 104:7-9 Now will I point out a mystery: Many sinners shall turn and transgress against the word of uprightness. They shall speak evil things; they shall utter falsehood; execute great undertakings; and compose books in their own words. But when they shall write all my words correctly in their own languages, 9They shall neither change or diminish them; but shall write them all correctly; all which from the first I have uttered concerning them.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work --

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Enoch 104:10-11Another mystery also I point out. To the righteous and the wise shall be given books of joy, of integrity, and of great wisdom. To them shall books be given, in which they shall believe; And in which they shall rejoice. And all the righteous shall be rewarded, who from these shall acquire the knowledge of every upright path.

1 Timothy 3:16 [/B]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: --
.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #176 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 11:01:33 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #177 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 13:36:24 »
2)catholic doctrines do contradict the scriptures.
If they don't,  Prove it.

This is typical of your twisted debating.

YOU claim that "catholic doctrines do contradict scriptures" but you are not prepared to back up your empty claims.

That is not how debating works.

You make a claim then you back it up or you are just making empty boasts.

You know you cannot and so you just duck and dodge.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #178 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 13:43:40 »

Dr Truth

You are constantly making claims that you cannot backup.

You made this boast
Quote from:
Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural.

When pressed on this you constantly evaded it, trying to put the onus on Catholics instead of fulfilling your empty boast.

For example:
Quote from:
I take it you can't give me ONE catholic teaching from the Bible??
That's because they aren't in the Bible.

As I said
Quote from:
No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture, so you cannot prove they are wrong from scripture.

Then you made this ridiculous claim:
Quote from:
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Finally you said:
Quote from:
Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

Please note that you have still ducked your original boast:
Quote from:
Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural.


I have shown you how the Catholic doctrine of asking the Saints in heaven to intercede for us is logical and based on scripture.


You have made no attempt to disprove what I said. As usual when you have no answer you just say I am twisting scripture.

Do you say how I am twisting scriopture? NO
Do you make any attempt to show me where I am wrong? NO

You have made no attempt to show how what I said contradicts scripture.

You have made no attempt to back up your empty boast that you could prove from the Bible that this teaching is wrong.

You have made no attempt to back up your empty boast that this teaching isn’t scriptural

When are you going to stop boasting and back up your empty boasts?





1)You said I am constantly making claims that I can't back up, Read my post, #167.
And see how wrong you are.
I answered that.

Have you responded to what I wrote? NO




3)You haven't given scriptures that prove we can pray to the departed saints.
You have said the catholics teach it, But you can't back it up with scriptures.

Yes I have .Do you want me to go through it line by line?

I will do if you are preprared to respond to what I actually write.

But you won't, You will just duck and dodge.


You haven't given me ONE sriptures that say we can pray to the saints in heaven.

So, Give me scriptures please,
I have shown you that the Bible says there is only ONE mediater, And that is Jesus.
How can you possibly get praying to the heavenly saints out of that??.

I gave you the script ures but you do not respond to them.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #179 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 13:54:01 »

1)You haven't given me one scripture to proved we can pray to the heavenly saints, You have given your opinions, But Eph 1: 10 doesn't say we are united opinions don't count.

I have given you the scriptures but here is one of them again plus some more:

Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #179 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 13:54:01 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #180 on: Wed Apr 11, 2012 - 19:01:12 »
The book of Maccabees was scriptural from the beginning and was for all Christians until Luther and the other "reformers" took it out.
I believe it was Jerome who put an asterisk by it, wasn't it?

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #181 on: Wed Apr 11, 2012 - 19:17:56 »
The book of Maccabees was scriptural from the beginning and was for all Christians until Luther and the other "reformers" took it out.
I believe it was Jerome who put an asterisk by it, wasn't it?

St. Jerome never claimed that they were uninspired as the reformers did. He says he only called them disputed because they were not apart of the Hebrew canon. I know you have read the books of Maccabees so I'm sure why you can see why the Early Church Fathers felt no reason to be compelled to conform to the precendents of the Jews in Jerusalem.

We have to simply come to terms with the fact that the reformers didn't like purgatory so they didn't like Maccabees so they didn't like the Septuagint. The entire New Testament was written in Greek. The Apostles frequently referred to the OT scriptures and encouraged the Early Church t keep to them. If they're writing the epistles in Greek what version of the OT do you think they were expecting them to read; the Greek version. So if the Holy Apostles, or rather the Holy Spirit Himself writing through the Apostles, is writing in Greek encouraging people to read the OT knowing they already were and were going to continue to do so in Greek why would He not point out that they shouldn't treat the Deuterocanonicals as inspired when He says later that all the scriptures are God-breathed?

Furthermore take the Bereans. St. Paul praised them for diligently studying the scriptures. They were in a Greek city so you can bet they had the Greek version of the OT. St. Paul never mentions that he was dismayed about the Bereans dilignetly studying a canon that has uninspired text in them.

Probably because they aren't uninspired.

St. Jerome never claimed they were unispired and every Christian church in history up until some Europeans in the middle ages decided to do their own thing used the text.

There doesn't seem to be much of a case here.