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Author Topic: Matthew 28:16-20  (Read 18819 times)

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Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #35 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:54:28 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

By all means! Those 'gifted in grammar' are doing just that!


Yes, the disciples were Christians.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #35 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:54:28 »

Offline P.F.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #36 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #36 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #37 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:35:41 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?


John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #38 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:10:59 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?


John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
that is an interesting  statement can you put it along side

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
 
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 1:4-8 (KJV)

Question if they received the indwelling Spirit in John 20:22 then what was Acts 1 talking about it is future not present

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #39 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:34:42 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?


John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
that is an interesting  statement can you put it along side

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
 
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 1:4-8 (KJV)

Question if they received the indwelling Spirit in John 20:22 then what was Acts 1 talking about it is future not present

Just as every new believer receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ as personal Saviour, there is a subsequent baptism of Holy Spirit. This is perfectly demonstrated in these two events. Pentecost had yet to come. It is the same for us. We are saved and receive the indwelling Spirit, yet there is another baptism we need to seek, which is the empowering of the Holy Spirit, our own personal Pentecost.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #39 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:34:42 »



Offline P.F.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #40 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:47:25 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?


John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.

I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles.  I am referencing the passage in the OP.  We are to make disciples.  Or in the KJV to teach all nations.  Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?

Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #41 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:48:52 »
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #42 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:54:03 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?


John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.

I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles.  I am referencing the passage in the OP.  We are to make disciples.  Or in the KJV to teach all nations.  Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?

I guess I don't know what you mean. The disciples were followers of Jesus Christ. They were believers. It's pretty straightforward.

Quote
Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?

Judas had something else in his heart beside faith.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #43 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:55:58 »
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.

Acts 19

Christians in Ephesus Are Filled with the Holy Spirit

 1 While Apollos was in the city of Corinth, Paul went through the hill country to get to the city of Ephesus. He found a few followers there. 2 He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you put your trust in Christ?

Offline P.F.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #44 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 22:06:42 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?


John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.

I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles.  I am referencing the passage in the OP.  We are to make disciples.  Or in the KJV to teach all nations.  Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?

I guess I don't know what you mean. The disciples were followers of Jesus Christ. They were believers. It's pretty straightforward.

Quote
Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?

Judas had something else in his heart beside faith.

Judas was a disciple regardless of what was in his heart.  Did he not follow Jesus?  Was he not called a disciple?

Believer and disciple are similar but not necessarily the same.

Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #45 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 23:43:37 »
Yes Lively I realize there are many passages that relate to this but I am looking for the first time this was put into play after the words were given. I am trying to see if I can find out if this was physical and spiritual combined or if it was only spiritual. I am trying to see just how the Apostles took this command and preformed it. I was hoping there would be an example see in int the bible where it was established so as I can begin to learn more of what is being taught on this subject. I am hoping to get this clear in my head.

This appears to be the first time after the command was given by Jesus.

Acts 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

41 - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:


Baptism was physical, we see that in these verses below.
  

Matt 3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

6 - And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

(the above (baptism of HG) happens to believers after Pentecost, so at that time, it was prophecy) This is also spiritual

13 - Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Blessings

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #46 on: Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 23:51:31 »
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.

Yes, the disciples were Christians.

What scriptures back up your assertion?


John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.

I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles.  I am referencing the passage in the OP.  We are to make disciples.  Or in the KJV to teach all nations.  Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?

I guess I don't know what you mean. The disciples were followers of Jesus Christ. They were believers. It's pretty straightforward.

Quote
Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?

Judas had something else in his heart beside faith.

Judas was a disciple regardless of what was in his heart.  Did he not follow Jesus?  Was he not called a disciple?

Believer and disciple are similar but not necessarily the same.

We assemble in church with people who claim to be disciples, too, but are not. The Bible distinctly paints a picture of these types as tares among wheat.

daq

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #47 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 02:30:14 »
Every man or woman is like the "housemaster" of a house, kingdom, dominion, domain, or realm. The "tares" are unclean spirits which are in the house, or field, etc., of the realm and were sown by the wicked one(s). The great High Priest sends his messenger-angels to sever the wicked ones and tares out from the houses and fields when any housemaster, (believer) has turned his house-kingdom-realm over to the True Master and High Priest Yeshua. When the house, field, kingdom, vessel, etc., is fully cleansed by the Son, (Master of the reins and heart) the Son then hands the kingdom over to the Father, (and the consummation of the aionos-age is complete and "time is no more").

Matthew 13:40-50
40.  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the consummation of this aionos.
41.  The Son of man shall send forth his messengers-angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42.  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43.  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44.  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45.  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46.  Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47.  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48.  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49.  So shall it be at the consummation of the aionos: the messengers-angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked out from the midst (GSN#3319 mesos) of the just,
50.  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized  mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 LIT
7.
   |3588| the
   |1063| For
   |3466| mystery
   |2235| already
   |1754| works
   |3588| of
   |0458| lawlessness,
   |3440| only
   |3588| he
   |2722| restraining
   |0737| now,
   |2193| until
   |1537| out of
   |9999| {the}
   |3319| middle
   |1096| it comes.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 TUA
7.  To garmusterion ede energeitai tes anomias, monon hokatechon arti heos ek mesou genetai.
7.  Because the mystery of lawlessness even now is energized, merely the-he-it restrained [is] for now, until out from the midst it becomes.


Therefore:

Matthew 28:19-20
19.  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, even the Holy Spirit:
20.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the consummation of the aionos-age.


Name of the Father - Old Testament Water of the WORD
Name of the Son - New Testament Water of the WORD


John 17:5-8 KJV
5.  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6.  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7.  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8.  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Offline gospel

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #48 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 05:30:33 »
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.

The difference is what you just stated in your question its really that simple...

1. Indwelling
2. Immersion

Now don't get me wrong I am not presuming that Lively and I exactly agree but the fact is, we realize there is a difference, where you do not seem too.

Just to be a little more plain about what I believe

I believe new believers upon the moment of accepting Jesus as Lord are immersed into the Body of Christ, the Body of Believers, they instantly become Lively Stones  ::smile::

Those who want the fullness of what God has to offer for the purpose of witnessing, equipping and being of service ( ministry )to others, need to be Filled with Holy Spirit Indwelling Presence for empowerment to do the work of the ministry.

What I described is the same difference as

1. A well of water in us springing up into everlasting life. - Salvation
( see Jn 4:14 )

2. Rivers of Living Water flowing out of us - Empowerment and equipped for ministry  ( see Jn 7:38)

So I see the former as Baptism, it happens in the heart, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ by profession of His Name, hence the phrase Baptized into the Name. Without this part water is just an empty ritual for the Holy Spirit only moves upon those whom are cut to the heart, circumcised in the spirit, by means of the two edged sword, the Word of God ( see Heb 4:12)

IT IS A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM and has nothing at all to do with water!

Water will not hurt it but neither will it add to it

It's the ceremony that's fitting for a believer, just like wedding ceremony is fitting  for 2 people in love

The wedding ceremony does not engender the love, but its the other way around.

We're in love so we want to get married, we can get married without the ceremony yet we will still be married

You can get saved without the baptism, you will still be saved, but you should have a ceremony

So we have 2 manifestations of the Spirit

1. A well springing up within us and

2. a river flowing out

the former is our personal salvation...
the latter I see as the infilling, as when a cup is infilled to overflowing and its not just for one person but more than enough for the purpose of sharing with others through the work of the ministry, teaching, evangelizing, prophesying, pastoring, building planting, governing etc etc..... THE WORK

i.e Being about Our Father's Business   

Hence
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

larry2

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #49 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 05:50:50 »

Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.


Marc, the thread OP has changed to include receiving the Holy Spirit, and so I now respond to that question. If the following is not what you want, please just delete it.

A statement I received in debate.

Receiving the Holy Spirit-- same thing as Jesus giving eternal life

happens as soon as you entrust Jesus with your salvation..

unearned, unmerited, unfavoured.

Below are observances I've noted in scripture.

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Question - Were the disciples saved at this time in Acts 1:8? And certainly the Holy Spirit was in others of the Old Testament. And did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? of course they did. Does that promise all future believers to receive Him when they believe?

John 14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
 
Question - Who is of the world that cannot receive the Holy Spirit when He comes? It is all unbelievers, wouldn't you agree?

Act 8:14-17 
14  Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Question - Were these at Jerusalem saved who received the word of God?

15  Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Question - Why would they pray to receive the Holy Ghost if He came automatically with salvation? And they must be saved (Not of the world) to receive the Holy Ghost.

16  (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Question - Why were those at Jerusalem baptized unless they were believers, and again why did they receive the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands instead of when they believed?

17  Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
 
Acts 11:15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. No laying on of hands here.
 

Acts 10:44-48  How did Peter know they were filled with the Holy Spirit below? He heard them speaking in tongues. And these were not yet baptized, but they were saved or they could not have received the Holy Spirit.

44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
   
Acts 19:2  He (Paul) said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

Question - If Paul knew all received the Holy Spirit when they are born to God, why ask the question?

Acts 19:5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
   
Question - Were these saved who were baptized yet?

Acts 19:6  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
 
Question - Again, why was it necessary that Paul lay hands on them if they automatically receive the Holy Ghost when they believe?

2 John 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. There is no mention that all believers have received the Holy Spirit.
 
The job of the Holy Spirit was to John 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, and to the believer in John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Question - What is "water" is this verse?

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 
Ephesians 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
 
Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
 
1 John 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 
John 4:14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
 
Below you will find the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
2 John 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Luke 11:13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? We as children must ask?

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #50 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 06:48:41 »
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.

The difference is what you just stated in your question its really that simple...

1. Indwelling
2. Immersion

Now don't get me wrong I am not presuming that Lively and I exactly agree but the fact is, we realize there is a difference, where you do not seem too.

Just to be a little more plain about what I believe

I believe new believers upon the moment of accepting Jesus as Lord are immersed into the Body of Christ, the Body of Believers, they instantly become Lively Stones  ::smile::

Those who want the fullness of what God has to offer for the purpose of witnessing, equipping and being of service ( ministry )to others, need to be Filled with Holy Spirit Indwelling Presence for empowerment to do the work of the ministry.

What I described is the same difference as

1. A well of water in us springing up into everlasting life. - Salvation
( see Jn 4:14 )

2. Rivers of Living Water flowing out of us - Empowerment and equipped for ministry  ( see Jn 7:38)

So I see the former as Baptism, it happens in the heart, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ by profession of His Name, hence the phrase Baptized into the Name. Without this part water is just an empty ritual for the Holy Spirit only moves upon those whom are cut to the heart, circumcised in the spirit, by means of the two edged sword, the Word of God ( see Heb 4:12)

IT IS A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM and has nothing at all to do with water!

Water will not hurt it but neither will it add to it

It's the ceremony that's fitting for a believer, just like wedding ceremony is fitting  for 2 people in love

The wedding ceremony does not engender the love, but its the other way around.

We're in love so we want to get married, we can get married without the ceremony yet we will still be married

You can get saved without the baptism, you will still be saved, but you should have a ceremony

So we have 2 manifestations of the Spirit

1. A well springing up within us and

2. a river flowing out

the former is our personal salvation...
the latter I see as the infilling, as when a cup is infilled to overflowing and its not just for one person but more than enough for the purpose of sharing with others through the work of the ministry, teaching, evangelizing, prophesying, pastoring, building planting, governing etc etc..... THE WORK

i.e Being about Our Father's Business   

Hence
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #51 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:01:57 »

This is by far the best answer that has been given.  However the answer to question 2 is not quite right.  In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples".  Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples.  He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.

Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep.  I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost.  I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix",  It is a description of what how to fix the roof.

"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.

If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.

Lively,

I am sorry but you are wrong.  It has nothing to do with courts.  It really doesn't have anything to do with theology.  It is just plain good old high school English grammar.  Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore.  And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.

I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.

Both "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit " and "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (in the English and the Greek) are participial phrases.  Participial phrases, like prepositional phrases, do not stand alone. The are not independent clauses or sentences but are modifiers. In this case "baptizing" and "teaching" are the means of making disciples.  In fact in the Greek, the only imperative is the verb "μαθητευσατε" which is translated as "make disciples".  The Greek word "πορευθεντες" is also a participle meaning "going"  or "in going" and strickly speaking is not an imperative either.

Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"

Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?

The focus here is not on who is "gifited in grammar" but rather on the grammar of the text.  Without a proper application of the grammar, there is no way to know what is being said.  Oftentimes subtle but different interpretations arise because of confusion about the grammar.  Matt 28:19-20 is a perfect example.  The participles "baptizing" and "teaching" is not a statement about what is to be done to disciples, rather it is stating the means to make disciples, that is, the process to make disciples .  The difference is profound.

And in fact if the participle "πορευθεντες" which is almost always translate there as the imperative "go" is treated as the participle it actually is then the verse would be read as.

 "In going, therefore, make disciples of all nations....."

That makes for an interesting subtle shift in the interpretation also.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #52 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:40:24 »
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.

Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.

('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:48:07 by Lively Stone »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #53 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 09:23:44 »

Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.


Marc, the thread OP has changed to include receiving the Holy Spirit, and so I now respond to that question. If the following is not what you want, please just delete it.

A statement I received in debate.

Receiving the Holy Spirit-- same thing as Jesus giving eternal life

happens as soon as you entrust Jesus with your salvation..

unearned, unmerited, unfavoured.

Below are observances I've noted in scripture.

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Question - Were the disciples saved at this time in Acts 1:8? And certainly the Holy Spirit was in others of the Old Testament. And did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? of course they did. Does that promise all future believers to receive Him when they believe?

I do believe that most of these questions relate to a fundamental (mis)understanding bout the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men.  In asking whether the disciples (I assume here you mean the eleven to whom Jesus was speaking) were saved at that time.  My answer to that is yes, but in the same manner as all the saved under the OT.  Was Abraham saved? Yes.  Was David saved? Yes.  Were the Remnant that Paul spoke of saved? Yes.  But again, they were OT saints.  Is there a difference?  Not in the fact of their salvation, but certainly in benefits attributed to them by virtue of being saved.  Baptism in the Holy Spirit is strictly a NT phenomenon.  In fact, baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is the same as the Indwelling Holy Spirit, is the signature difference between those saved under the OT and those saved under the NT.

Does that mean that the Holy Spirit was inactive under the OT?  Of course not.  But under the OT the Holy Spirit never indwelt the believer.  However the Holy Spirit was active from the very outset and is first mentioned as coming upon men in Exodus 28.  There as elsewhere in the OT, such "coming upon" or "filling with" was always an "equipping work"  and not a "saving work".  Some will argue that the Holy Spirit did work redemptively in the OT, but I believe otherwise.   I believe that all the OT texts that allegedly teach of saving work of the Holy Spirit in OT times do not actually support that idea.

Thus I believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit is a uniquely post-pentecostal, New Testament role of the Holy Spiriit. So to your question of whether the disciples were saved at the time that Jesus spoke to them in Acts 1:8, I would answer yes.  Did they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time?  I don't believe so.  In fact, the Bible never says when that occurred.  Some argue that it happened at the occasion of Acts 2:4.  I would argue against that.  The events of Acts 2:4 are quite similar to many other events described in the OT and consist only of the "empowering" or "equipping" work of the Holy Spirit.  An OT counterpart to Acts 2:4 is found in Num 11:25. In neither case is there any indication of regeneration and sanctification, which are the new work of the Holy Spirit in the NT.  So then, where and/or when do we read of the first occurance of the new work of regeneration and sanctification?  Acts 2:38 presents the imparting of the gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., the indwelling Holy Spirit.

With that I will quit.  But perhaps it will shed some light on the other questions that you asked.

I would add one other point here.  Just as Acts 2:4 presents the empowering or equipping work of the Holy Spirit and not the saving work of the Holy Spirit, so also Acts 10:44 presents the equipping not the saving work of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #54 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 09:42:17 »
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.

Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.

('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)

Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive.  And gerunds are not commands.

"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #55 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:20:35 »
Matthew 13:52
52.  Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.


Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122

Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized  matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.

Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized  mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.

Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized  oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.

::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #56 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:38:36 »
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.

Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.

('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)

Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive.  And gerunds are not commands.

"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.

These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #57 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:05:18 »
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.

Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.

('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)

Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive.  And gerunds are not commands.

"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.

These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.

That is but another of the corrupting influences of the Calvinst/Reformed theology, namely that one must become a disciple before they can even be taught.  Ridiculous.  It is in the teaching that one comes to faith by hearing (Rom 10:17) and it is baptizing that one receives forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

They are not gerunds.  And in the Greek it is even more apparent since the Greek, like Latin and unlike English, has an adverbial participle.

As I indicated, in the Greek, not even the word "go" is not in the imperative.  It also is a participle.  Yes, they are to make disciples.  But it is specifically in going, baptizing and teaching that they do so.  Going is a prerequiste; baptizing and teaching is the process for making disciples.

A preferred translation of Matt 28:18-20 would be,

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.


Offline gospel

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #58 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24 »
Quote
Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.


And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   ::headscratch::

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #59 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 12:16:52 »
Quote
Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.


And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   ::headscratch::
Really?? I guess nothing to some of us that way it can say what we want it to say but to others more seriously wanting to study what it says and have it to say what it says I would guess that grammar means a lot. Seriously word study does play into what is being said does it not.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #60 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 12:30:00 »
Quote
Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.


And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   ::headscratch::
Really?? I guess nothing to some of us that way it can say what we want it to say but to others more seriously wanting to study what it says and have it to say what it says I would guess that grammar means a lot. Seriously word study does play into what is being said does it not.

And thus the rift between the many denominations.

Everyone tends to fall inside of a group of believers who interpret scripture in a particular way. The basis of their interpretations of scripture can be based upon grammar or many sources such as anthropology.

IN fact the notion that Jesus was a carpenter is based upon a translation and not actual fact.
In the area of Nazareth there wasn't a lot of wood around for construction materials...only stone. But in Europe where the bible was translated into english a stone mason was a highly respectable tradesman and a carpenter was a low skill or common skill construction worker. And since the translators didn't want people to get the wrong impression about who Jesus was in his trade they translated it as a carpenter instead of actually what he did for a living.

Offline gospel

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #61 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 12:41:20 »
Quote
Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.



And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   ::headscratch::

Really?? I guess nothing to some of us that way it can say what we want it to say but to others more seriously wanting to study what it says and have it to say what it says I would guess that grammar means a lot. Seriously word study does play into what is being said does it not.



In lieu of giving another long winded response I'll refer to you the response I made to Jarrod yesterday here

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/bible-study-of-the-carnalspiritual-christian-as-spoken-of-by-the-apostle-paul/msg1054613881/#msg1054613881



Basically it says that when people get into definitions down to the letter they often lose the heart, intent and purpose of what God is saying to us.

Case in point...

The Pharisees, Lawyers and Scribes were very well educated, they knew the scriptures far better than any of us and they perfectly understood Aramaic and Hebrew better than you and I ever will or could ever dream to

Nevertheless for the most part aside from a small number of their elite group, they didn't understand Jesus AT ALL!

Yet others who were basically illiterate, uneducated with no access to the Holy Scrolls perfectly understood Jesus

Point?

Defining words is often highly over-rated, another subtle form of pride, humanism and idolatry, and an attempt to foster the view that only the highly educated can truly understand the scriptures

When actually the truth is the exact opposite for I find that the more exaltation, emphasis and reliance one places on ones intellectual prowess its usually an indication of less understanding NOT more and the very word of God bears that out as a fact.

If you like I can cite numerous scriptural references in that regard  ::smile::

Just so it's clear I think definitions are good especially for understanding each other's understanding of what we mean by some of the terms we use

and obviously sometimes and occasionally someone totally and completely misunderstands a term but what we have been seeing in this thread is unproductive bordering on the ridiculous, silly knick knack pally wack foolishness  ::juggle::

 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #62 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 13:29:25 »
I disagree obviously, but what's new? It only seems like foolishness to each of us when it goes against what our preconceptions are usually.

I agree with what JohnDB stated above.

Offline gospel

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #63 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 13:38:30 »
I disagree obviously, but what's new? It only seems like foolishness to each of us when it goes against what our preconceptions are usually.

I agree with what JohnDB stated above.

It's foolishness ala Bill Clinton-esque when you get to the point of saying things like "it depends on the definition of "is"

Debating go and in going its utter foolishness and probably an indication that someone isn't going because they don't believe the command is to go

Just say that!

I don't believe we are commanded to go.....THEN play with the definition to suit your belief

OBVIOUSLY AND CLEARLY ...directly following the Infilling, They went out witnessing, and not even under their own power and even not speaking something they had planned to say, nor had they planned to say anything....

Yet it resulted in 3000 disciples in one day

AND more added every day according to the Book commonly known as Acts, formally referred to as The Acts of the Apostles, which I like to call The Acts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles



 

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #64 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 13:54:28 »
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.

Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.

('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)

Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive.  And gerunds are not commands.

"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.

These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.

That is but another of the corrupting influences of the Calvinst/Reformed theology, namely that one must become a disciple before they can even be taught.  Ridiculous.  It is in the teaching that one comes to faith by hearing (Rom 10:17) and it is baptizing that one receives forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

A disciple is ONE BEING TAUGHT. That is neither Calvinist or Reformed. It is the bible.


Quote
They are not gerunds.  And in the Greek it is even more apparent since the Greek, like Latin and unlike English, has an adverbial participle.

As I indicated, in the Greek, not even the word "go" is not in the imperative.  It also is a participle.  Yes, they are to make disciples.  But it is specifically in going, baptizing and teaching that they do so.  Going is a prerequiste; baptizing and teaching is the process for making disciples.

A preferred translation of Matt 28:18-20 would be,

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.



I couldn't care less about the grammar, but I do understand Jesus. I desire to obey Him by doing what He commands. Those who choose to differ with His words may be trying to get out from under. I am going, baptizing and making disciples in Jesus' name.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #65 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:01:11 »
My question is if Jesus commanded one to baptize that has to be referring to water baptism correct?? If not how will I or anyone baptize in spirit just how does one do that if it is not in water? So I see in Acts 2:38 where Peter carried out the command from Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16  and in doing he made it clear that in this baptism is where the spirit is given.

Think hard about that if Peter did not baptize here with water how did he baptize with spirit.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #66 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:03:53 »
I think it's wonderful you're bringing up grammar.  My grammar died several years ago at the age of 90.  She was such a sweet woman, and made some of the best clam chowder you've ever tasted.  So, though I don't think of her that often any more, I have to say that my grammar was, and still is very important to me.

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #67 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:05:07 »
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.

Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.

('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)

Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive.  And gerunds are not commands.

"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.

These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.

That is but another of the corrupting influences of the Calvinst/Reformed theology, namely that one must become a disciple before they can even be taught.  Ridiculous.  It is in the teaching that one comes to faith by hearing (Rom 10:17) and it is baptizing that one receives forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

A disciple is ONE BEING TAUGHT. That is neither Calvinist or Reformed. It is the bible.


Quote
They are not gerunds.  And in the Greek it is even more apparent since the Greek, like Latin and unlike English, has an adverbial participle.

As I indicated, in the Greek, not even the word "go" is not in the imperative.  It also is a participle.  Yes, they are to make disciples.  But it is specifically in going, baptizing and teaching that they do so.  Going is a prerequiste; baptizing and teaching is the process for making disciples.

A preferred translation of Matt 28:18-20 would be,

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.



I couldn't care less about the grammar, but I do understand Jesus. I desire to obey Him by doing what He commands. Those who choose to differ with His words may be trying to get out from under. I am going, baptizing and making disciples in Jesus' name.

And it's really just that simple!

All this convolution over the basic Christian doctrine of The Great Commission is stifling, hindering and just another form of scattering rather than gathering Lord Jesus Help Us!!!


Luke 11:23
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.



Offline gospel

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #68 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:13:58 »
My question is if Jesus commanded one to baptize that has to be referring to water baptism correct?? If not how will I or anyone baptize in spirit just how does one do that if it is not in water? So I see in Acts 2:38 where Peter carried out the command from Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16  and in doing he made it clear that in this baptism is where the spirit is given.

Think hard about that if Peter did not baptize here with water how did he baptize with spirit.

When you lay hands on the sick and they recover ...you are not the healer, the Holy Spirit working through you is Him who heals

When you minister the Gospel of Christ and the Words cut to the heart of a person, It is not you causing the person to believe, it is the Word of God, for Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word
That person becomes a believer through hearing the Word and is Baptized into the Name of Jesus and the Body of Christ by The Holy Spirit...not the person speaking!

It is the Holy Spirit who is The Master Surgeon, He who circumcises the heart of a person

So when Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit was working, cutting to the heart of the 3000 on that Day of Pentecost

When the Word goes forth, The Holy Spirit goes into action confirming it ( See Genesis 1 )

When Jesus, The Living Word went forth The Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed Him

When the disciples went forth, In the Word, the Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed them

and....

When WE GO FORTH IN THE WORD BELIEVING AND DOUBTING

The Holy Spirit will go into action and confirm us too!   ::reading::


Offline Jimmy

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Re: Matthew 28:16-20
« Reply #69 on: Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:18:37 »
Quote
Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.


And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   ::headscratch::

The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made.  A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught.  At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing.  A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior.  But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.

You said,

"Why not discuss making disciples?"   ::headscratch::


I couldn't agree with you more.  But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples.  Or in other words what does it take to make disciples.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e.,  a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught?  No.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized?  No.  That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20.  Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.

And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.

 

     
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