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ROJTC

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Neither Male Nor Female
« on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 19:30:00 »
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

One states that,  "ye shall be my sons and daughters".

The other states,  "there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."


Which on is true?

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Neither Male Nor Female
« on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 19:30:00 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #1 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 22:15:39 »
Both are true.

God who made us has a relationship with those who have received Jesus. We know God and He knows us as we are---male and female and He works with us in those aspects of who we are. He doesn't overlook our gender, or anything else about us. He revels in His creation.

He cares about me as a female, as a wife and mother and grandmother. He works with me as a woman, knowing full well how my mind and heart work.

On the other hand, He also doesn't let my gender influence how He teaches me, corrects me, or advances me in ministry. He doesn't gift me according to gender, but according to His pleasure. I have the exact same purpose as everyone else in living for Christ, which is to be outward-focused, spreading the gospel, and being accountable to my sisters and brothers in Christ.

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #1 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 22:15:39 »

ROJTC

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #2 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 22:23:13 »
Both are true.

God who made us has a relationship with those who have received Jesus. We know God and He knows us as we are---male and female and He works with us in those aspects of who we are. He doesn't overlook our gender, or anything else about us. He revels in His creation.

He cares about me as a female, as a wife and mother and grandmother. He works with me as a woman, knowing full well how my mind and heart work.

On the other hand, He also doesn't let my gender influence how He teaches me, corrects me, or advances me in ministry. He doesn't gift me according to gender, but according to His pleasure. I have the exact same purpose as everyone else in living for Christ, which is to be outward-focused, spreading the gospel, and being accountable to my sisters and brothers in Christ.


Is the Spirit of Christ male or female?

Offline DiscipleDave

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 05, 2012 - 01:29:35 »
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

One states that,  "ye shall be my sons and daughters".

The other states,  "there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."


Which on is true?


Both are true, but the Carnal mind can't comprehend the things that are spiritual. The spirit that is within you has always existed even before you (human) were born on the Earth. That spirit was indeed a son or daughter of God. but not like sons and daughters that are on the Earth. What makes a person on the Earth a son or daughter is because he is either male or female. But what makes a person a son or daughter in Heaven is not that they are male or female, but that they appear to be male or female. its hard to explain. Let me try another way.
IF you see a man walking up to you, you would automatically assume that it is a male, a Son to someone. However you would be wrong, because that man is an Angel of God, he is not male or female, but only appears to be male, or in the form of a male. So then if that Angels takes the shape of a man he is a Son of God, but if that same Angel walks around a corner and takes the shape of a woman, that woman is a daughter of God. yet in reality that Angel is neither male nor female, yet can be either a son or daughter of God depending on what sex that Angel becomes. He that is able to receive it let him/her receive it.

^i^

Offline afaithfulone4u

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #4 on: Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 10:35:37 »
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

One states that,  "ye shall be my sons and daughters".

The other states,  "there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."


Which on is true?
Righteous OJesus The Christ,
They both are correct. For in the flesh Adam was all attributes of male and female being created in God's image. But God divided him  into two male and female, sons and daughters,yet the two are still connected in the sight of God as ONE flesh. And just as we being Jew or Gentile, male or female are being reunited into Christ (The last Adam) as the ONE new man as Adam was before God took Eve from his SIDE and before the fall.

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #4 on: Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 10:35:37 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #5 on: Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 10:50:36 »
Dr Derek Prince once started a sermon by holding out his arm and flexing it, touching his shoulder and then extending it straight out to his side and asked the question which one was right?

His point was that scripture contains what he called "dynamic tensions" that are necessary for a body to move, diametricly opposite things that keep us and our walk from becoming paralyzed like a body that can only draw in his arms but not extend them.

This is like that.  If there is no male or female why have instructions for husbands and wives?  Why proclaim homosexuality sinful?

Indeed there must be another deeper point Paul was making.  I believe it is this:

WHEN we are standing at the foot of the cross for grace, strength to fight sin, salvation, increased faith, etc. there is no male or female, slave or free, black or white, etc.  In everything else in life there IS male and female, Jew and Gentile, Parent and child, worker and boss (or slave and free if you prefer), etc.  Indeed God has made these pairings for MUTUAL BLESSING. and to lose the distinction loses the blessing.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #6 on: Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 11:52:42 »
If there is no male or female why have instructions for husbands and wives?  Why proclaim homosexuality sinful?

Indeed there must be another deeper point Paul was making.


There is not a deeper point that Paul is making, there is just the point....which you and Mr. Prince both miss. He is speaking about the Christians new identity in Christ. In Christ we are All children of God, regardless of our gender, race, or status in society.


p.rehbein

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #7 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 07:50:11 »
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

One states that,  "ye shall be my sons and daughters".

The other states,  "there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."


Which on is true?

Your mistake is to confuse the "carnality" of man.......his earthy form with the "spirituality" of man...his heavenly form...........

The scripture from 2nd Corinthians is speaking of man's relationship with God in this life, on this earth.....the scripture in Galatians is speaking of man's relationship with God after salvation as an eternal spirit...........

Now, with your "posed suggestion" of homosexuality as to the Spirit of Christ, when you ask:  "Is the Spirit of Christ male or female?", the Biblical answer is "neither."  God is a spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in spirit.  In Heaven there is neither male nor female, they will not be given into marriage, and, no, this does not mean they are homosexual........you are not the first to come here and pose such suggestions, but hey, whatever trips your trigger...........

We are created in His image, and that "image" has nothing to do with our "earthy" forms of male and female, rather that "image" is the "eternal spirit" we all possess.  Our "earthy" forms were created for the purpose of the procreation of mankind.  The natural process of procreation is male and female interaction to produce offspring which increases the species and thus advances the chance of the survival of the species.  Yes, some species go extinct (for various reasons), but this too is in keeping with Scripture, for Scripture states........."to all things there is a season........."


Offline FireSword

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #8 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 14:31:12 »
Dr Derek Prince once started a sermon by holding out his arm and flexing it, touching his shoulder and then extending it straight out to his side and asked the question which one was right?

His point was that scripture contains what he called "dynamic tensions" that are necessary for a body to move, diametricly opposite things that keep us and our walk from becoming paralyzed like a body that can only draw in his arms but not extend them.

This is like that.  If there is no male or female why have instructions for husbands and wives?  Why proclaim homosexuality sinful?

Indeed there must be another deeper point Paul was making.  I believe it is this:

WHEN we are standing at the foot of the cross for grace, strength to fight sin, salvation, increased faith, etc. there is no male or female, slave or free, black or white, etc.  In everything else in life there IS male and female, Jew and Gentile, Parent and child, worker and boss (or slave and free if you prefer), etc.  Indeed God has made these pairings for MUTUAL BLESSING. and to lose the distinction loses the blessing.


Yes because there is a difference between Jew and gentile. Many today want women to become like men, women are loosing their attractiveness, maybe that's why today many men turn gay.


p.rehbein

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #9 on: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 06:55:58 »
Dr Derek Prince once started a sermon by holding out his arm and flexing it, touching his shoulder and then extending it straight out to his side and asked the question which one was right?

His point was that scripture contains what he called "dynamic tensions" that are necessary for a body to move, diametricly opposite things that keep us and our walk from becoming paralyzed like a body that can only draw in his arms but not extend them.

This is like that.  If there is no male or female why have instructions for husbands and wives?  Why proclaim homosexuality sinful?

Indeed there must be another deeper point Paul was making.  I believe it is this:

WHEN we are standing at the foot of the cross for grace, strength to fight sin, salvation, increased faith, etc. there is no male or female, slave or free, black or white, etc.  In everything else in life there IS male and female, Jew and Gentile, Parent and child, worker and boss (or slave and free if you prefer), etc.  Indeed God has made these pairings for MUTUAL BLESSING. and to lose the distinction loses the blessing.


Yes because there is a difference between Jew and gentile. Many today want women to become like men, women are loosing their attractiveness, maybe that's why today many men turn gay.

In the eyes of God, once we are saved, there is no difference.......that is Biblical.  To deny this is to deny the Truth of the Word of God.............just saying.

As for the rest of your comment......do you have some sort of evidence that "many want women to become like men..........." or that "that's why today many men are gay?"  Statements like that, when preceeded/followed by the disclaimer "in my opinion," are fine, but they are not ok when presented as fact/truth.  I would suspect that the greatest number of folks want women to be women........and that the percent of gays today is probably similar to the precent of gays in other times based on the world's population.  These are just my opinions and should be considered as such.




Offline DaveW

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #10 on: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 07:23:41 »
Quote
In the eyes of God, once we are saved, there is no difference.......that is Biblical.  To deny this is to deny the Truth of the Word of God.............just saying.

So in the "eyes of God" it is ok that I marry a guy - as long as we both are saved?
After all, there "is no difference."

RIIIIIIGHT.  ::frown::

p.rehbein

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #11 on: Thu Nov 01, 2012 - 09:30:45 »
Quote
In the eyes of God, once we are saved, there is no difference.......that is Biblical.  To deny this is to deny the Truth of the Word of God.............just saying.

So in the "eyes of God" it is ok that I marry a guy - as long as we both are saved?
After all, there "is no difference."

RIIIIIIGHT.  ::frown::


Either you are just joking, or whatever, or you really, really need to get over that 2 Gospel ideology DaveW.

You know perfectly well that I am speaking of our spiritual condition/being, and that once we are saved, God views us all (male, female, bond, free, Jew, Greek) as His children equally.

Now, if you just want to marra a man, well, that's betwixt you and God, and none of my buisness.

Galatians 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith.  25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.  29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now, you can jest at/mock the Word of God all you want............but it's not a really good idea in my opinion Brother.............

 ::frown::

Offline DaveW

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #12 on: Thu Nov 01, 2012 - 09:41:12 »
PR I appreciate your zeal for the Word.  I too have that zeal.  I will not mock or belittle the Word of God.

What I am trying to communicate (and apparently doing a TERRIBLE job of it) is that I do NOT hold to a '2 gospel' or '2 covenant' or '2 anything' position re Jews and Gentiles.

I am trying to get you and others to closely examine those verses that say "... neither Jew or Gentile ..." and apply that understanding THE SAME WAY to 'male and female.'  If it cannot work doing that with male and female, then the way it is being applied to Jew and Gentile must also be in need of adjustment.  I agree that God views us all on equal footing.

But if "husbands love your wives" and "wives submit to your husbands" does not get interpreted as 2 covenants or 2 ways of salvation; why does "Jews keep the Law and Gentiles do not" get understood that way?  It is grossly inconsistent.

p.rehbein

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #13 on: Thu Nov 01, 2012 - 11:03:39 »
Dave, ok, that sounds more like the DaveW I know and respect........

In my opinion it is not inconsistent/conflicting at all.  One is dealing with the "earthy" man prior to salvation, and the other is dealing with the "spiritually reborn" man after salvation  Hope that makes sense.

Yes, on this earth, in our "earthy" forms we are male, female, Jew, Greek, bond, free, however once we are His children, He no longer sees us/limit us to these.  Once we are saved, and all become heirs to the promise, God will use us as He wishes to accomplish His will regardless of our "earthy" category.  Now, this is just my opinion/understanding of Scripture........so............

Ok, I must have misunderstood your past comments about two Gospels, so sorry 'bout that.  ::blushing::

As for husbands/wives, they are not "covenants" in my opinion.  But I suppose it depends on a person's definition of covenant.  Certainly they in no way represent two ways/paths to salvation in my opinion.  Would never suggest that.

Now, Law v. Grace is a different matter entirely.  There is only one path to salvation and that is by Grace and that a gift of God, and not the works (Law) of man, lest any man should boast.  I am not belittling anyone who chooses to live by the Law, however does Scripture not say that those who choose to live by the Law, shall be judged by the Law?  And if this is true, then Grace is of no avail to them.  Just as those saved by Grace are no long under a schoolmaster (Law), therefore the Law can not condemn them for they are washed in the blood of Christ and born anew, and have become heirs to the promise through Grace.

Dunno if I'm making sense......sorta rambling a wee bit I suppose, but that's the gist of it for me. 

 ::smile::

Offline DaveW

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #14 on: Thu Nov 01, 2012 - 11:14:38 »
Not law vs grace but legalism vs grace.  Both concepts (law, legalism) are in the greek word nomos.

All salvation is by faith and grace.  All obedience is by faith and grace.  Both Jew and Gentile.

And while a Jew may still be expected to keep the Law, it is NOT for salvation nor is it for righteousness. (right standing with God) Both are entirely equal under the New Covenant.

Nowhere am I advocating keeping the Law for salvation or for righteousness.  I am saying that is what is required by their walking out their own salvation in obedience. 

Getting back to my thing with the men and women.  I am a man.  The scripture tells me to love my wife.  Is that salvic? No.  It is part of how I walk AFTER I am saved. It is the same with a saved Jew keeping the Law. Part of how a Jew walks AFTER he is saved.

I am sorry but I do not know how to state this another way.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 02, 2012 - 07:14:20 by DaveW »

p.rehbein

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #15 on: Fri Nov 02, 2012 - 06:42:41 »
Brother, I am going to ramble here a bit, and I do not wish to put words in your mouth, but, rather try and convey what I am understanding from your words.

When you say:  "Nowhere am I advocating keeping the Law for salvation or for righteousness.  I am saying that is what is required by their walking out their own salvation in obedience"

To me this means that after one receives salvation through faith, and that by the Grace of God, that they are to be obedient to His commandments.  Now, you (and I) have used the word "Law," but to me this is what is often referred to as "works."  Some believe that "works" are required to achieve salvation, but I disagree with them.  I believe our "works," keeping His commandments are a "witness" of our salvation.  A "testimony" of our salvation, and those "works" are not how we achieve salvation, but rather how we walk as Christ after having received salvation.

When I hear someone say "we must keep the Law" to be saved, I cannot agree with them.  As well, I wonder exactly which "Laws" they are referring to?  To me, the Jews of today, those who still practice the Jewish faith/religion, and do not accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, are keeping to the Laws of Moses, the Laws of the First Covenant.  However, if one is saved, born anew unto Christ, the Laws of the Jews are no longer a requirement for them, for they are saved by Grace.  Now a born again Christian must certainly keep the commandments of Jesus, but the ritualistic Laws of Moses are no longer needed, for they have achieved salvation through Christ.  (Does this make sense?  Hope so....)

You also said:  "Getting back to my thing with the men and women.  I am a man.  The scripture tells me to love my wife.  Is that salvic? No.  It is part of how I walk AFTER I am saved. It is the same with a saved Jew keeping the Law. Part of how a Jew walks AFTER he is saved."

This is pretty much the same as your prior statement in my understanding, for it is saying again that our "works," "walks" follow our salvation.  Turning away from the old man, and putting on the new man so to speak. 

Ok, maybe I understood you correctly, and, if so, I agree with you............  ::smile::



Offline DaveW

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #16 on: Fri Nov 02, 2012 - 07:11:55 »
Brother, I am going to ramble here a bit, and I do not wish to put words in your mouth, but, rather try and convey what I am understanding from your words.

if one is saved, born anew unto Christ, the Laws of the Jews are no longer a requirement for them, for they are saved by Grace.  Now a born again Christian must certainly keep the commandments of Jesus, but the ritualistic Laws of Moses are no longer needed, for they have achieved salvation through Christ. 


The word "Law" is translated (circuitously in the NT) from Torah, which means at its heart, "teaching."  As such, God's teachings are as unchanging as He is.

But following the Torah in a New Covenant environment is different than the Mosaic. Much of what you call "ritualistic" applied to the temple/tabernacle sacrifices and of course have been replaced by the sacrifice of Messiah. To try to reinstate that would violate the New Covenant. But that is not ALL of the rituals. Some of them CAN be followed without violating the New Covenant.

To that end, the director of our  brotherhood of congregations and our congregational leader (Dr Dan Juster and Dr Mike Rudolph respectively) are writing a book on this subject. They look at each of the 613 commands in Torah to see if and how each one can be applied in the New Covenant. It is a work in progress and is being posted on line as chapters become available. You can read their process HERE:

http://www.tikkunamerica.org/halachah.php

p.rehbein

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Re: Neither Male Nor Female
« Reply #17 on: Fri Nov 02, 2012 - 08:02:48 »
Thanks, I will see what they have accomplished so far............  ::smile::

 

     
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