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Author Topic: Purgatory  (Read 11524 times)

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Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #140 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 11:35:37 »
Quote
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Well since you are the one claiming Catholic teachings are not in line with the Bible, and you believe you can prove it, why not take the initiative yourself? Take one of the core Catholic teachings you posted earlier and illustrate how it's wrong according to the Bible.

I think it's a little unfair to claim that you can "prove" Catholic teachings wrong, then demand that Catholics offer up specific doctrines to be scrutinized. It's your claim, and as such the onus is on you to verify that claim.

Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.  ::nodding::


Only because you can't prove the catholic teachings are in the Bible.

I don't have to. You are the one that made thr rash claim

"Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural."

Just admit that you cannot do it.

As I said no catholic doctrine contradicts scripture.


Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

How does that contradict scripture?

When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.

Would you have a reference for that?



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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #140 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 11:35:37 »

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #141 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 14:08:34 »
Quote
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Well since you are the one claiming Catholic teachings are not in line with the Bible, and you believe you can prove it, why not take the initiative yourself? Take one of the core Catholic teachings you posted earlier and illustrate how it's wrong according to the Bible.

I think it's a little unfair to claim that you can "prove" Catholic teachings wrong, then demand that Catholics offer up specific doctrines to be scrutinized. It's your claim, and as such the onus is on you to verify that claim.

Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.  ::nodding::


Only because you can't prove the catholic teachings are in the Bible.

I don't have to. You are the one that made thr rash claim

"Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural."

Just admit that you cannot do it.

As I said no catholic doctrine contradicts scripture.


Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

How does that contradict scripture?

When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.

Would you have a reference for that?




1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

2)Lk 16: 19--31.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #141 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 14:08:34 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #142 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 15:04:18 »
Quote
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Well since you are the one claiming Catholic teachings are not in line with the Bible, and you believe you can prove it, why not take the initiative yourself? Take one of the core Catholic teachings you posted earlier and illustrate how it's wrong according to the Bible.

I think it's a little unfair to claim that you can "prove" Catholic teachings wrong, then demand that Catholics offer up specific doctrines to be scrutinized. It's your claim, and as such the onus is on you to verify that claim.

Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.  ::nodding::


Only because you can't prove the catholic teachings are in the Bible.

I don't have to. You are the one that made thr rash claim

"Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural."

Just admit that you cannot do it.

As I said no catholic doctrine contradicts scripture.


Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

How does that contradict scripture?

When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.

Would you have a reference for that?




1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

How can they contradict scripture if, as you claim, they are not in scripture?

2)Lk 16: 19--31.

That's because Lazarus was not in heaven and the Saints we pray to are in heaven. The situation is not the same.

larry2

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #143 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 15:37:50 »

Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.


When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.


Quote from: Dr. Truth
1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

2)Lk 16: 19--31.


An interesting thought. The rich man though dead in the grave was praying for the living. Abraham though in Paradise was answering. The answer to sending one to the rich man's brothers is that they wouldn't listen. One (Jesus) did go to all from the dead.

Another reason Catholics pray for the dead when we wonder at the thought is found in the Apocrypha Protestants do not regard as scripture; they do and the following is an example of leading to their thinking.

2 Machabees 12:42-44 ". . the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. [43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #144 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 03:41:33 »
Quote
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Well since you are the one claiming Catholic teachings are not in line with the Bible, and you believe you can prove it, why not take the initiative yourself? Take one of the core Catholic teachings you posted earlier and illustrate how it's wrong according to the Bible.

I think it's a little unfair to claim that you can "prove" Catholic teachings wrong, then demand that Catholics offer up specific doctrines to be scrutinized. It's your claim, and as such the onus is on you to verify that claim.

Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.  ::nodding::


Only because you can't prove the catholic teachings are in the Bible.

I don't have to. You are the one that made thr rash claim

"Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural."

Just admit that you cannot do it.

As I said no catholic doctrine contradicts scripture.


Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

How does that contradict scripture?

When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.

Would you have a reference for that?




1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

How can they contradict scripture if, as you claim, they are not in scripture?

2)Lk 16: 19--31.

That's because Lazarus was not in heaven and the Saints we pray to are in heaven. The situation is not the same.


That is a cop-out, There is no scriptures that say we pray to the saints in heaven.

The Hebrew Bible text tells us that the departed don't know what is going on in the  earth, So how can they hear our prayers??.

At the end of the Apostle Paul's life, He said he has finished his course,
Acts 20: 24.  2 Tim 4: 7.
Paul also said  to the Philippian Church,  "It is more needful for you if I stay".
He didn't say he would go to heaven and he will pray for us, Or he will hear and answear our prayers. Did he??
NO..NO.. When a saint has gone to be with the Lord, Their work is finnished.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #144 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 03:41:33 »



Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #145 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 03:52:01 »

Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.


When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.


Quote from: Dr. Truth
1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

2)Lk 16: 19--31.


An interesting thought. The rich man though dead in the grave was praying for the living. Abraham though in Paradise was answering. The answer to sending one to the rich man's brothers is that they wouldn't listen. One (Jesus) did go to all from the dead.

Another reason Catholics pray for the dead when we wonder at the thought is found in the Apocrypha Protestants do not regard as scripture; they do and the following is an example of leading to their thinking.

2 Machabees 12:42-44 ". . the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. [43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)



1)When The rich man tried to interceed for his family, He got rebuled by Abraham.

2)What the catholics don't tell us is, Those books weren't in the original Bible, The catholics added those after.
For instance, They wanted to a doctrine of praying for the dead, So they looked for something that would back it up, Then they found the book of Machabees.

Then they criticised Luther for restoring the Bible to it's righ number of books.

3)The book of Machabees is unscriptural, The bIble doesn't teach giving silver or money as an offereing for the sins of the dead.
It is to late once a person dies.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #146 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 04:28:24 »
Quote
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Well since you are the one claiming Catholic teachings are not in line with the Bible, and you believe you can prove it, why not take the initiative yourself? Take one of the core Catholic teachings you posted earlier and illustrate how it's wrong according to the Bible.

I think it's a little unfair to claim that you can "prove" Catholic teachings wrong, then demand that Catholics offer up specific doctrines to be scrutinized. It's your claim, and as such the onus is on you to verify that claim.

Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.  ::nodding::


Only because you can't prove the catholic teachings are in the Bible.

I don't have to. You are the one that made thr rash claim

"Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural."

Just admit that you cannot do it.

As I said no catholic doctrine contradicts scripture.


Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

How does that contradict scripture?

When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.

Would you have a reference for that?




1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

How can they contradict scripture if, as you claim, they are not in scripture?

2)Lk 16: 19--31.

That's because Lazarus was not in heaven and the Saints we pray to are in heaven. The situation is not the same.


That is a cop-out, There is no scriptures that say we pray to the saints in heaven.

It doesn't contradict scripture.

The Hebrew Bible text tells us that the departed don't know what is going on in the  earth, So how can they hear our prayers??.

Why is it you don't give scripture references when you make claims like that?

At the end of the Apostle Paul's life, He said he has finished his course,
Acts 20: 24.  2 Tim 4: 7.
Paul also said  to the Philippian Church,  "It is more needful for you if I stay".
He didn't say he would go to heaven and he will pray for us, Or he will hear and answear our prayers. Did he??

That proves nothing. You are arguing from silence.

Paul wanted to stay to continue to preach the gospel.

No point in preaching the gospel to those in heaven.

NO..NO.. When a saint has gone to be with the Lord, Their work is finnished.

Where does it say that in scripture?


Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #147 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 04:37:08 »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #148 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 04:45:40 »

Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.


When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.


Quote from: Dr. Truth
1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

2)Lk 16: 19--31.


An interesting thought. The rich man though dead in the grave was praying for the living. Abraham though in Paradise was answering. The answer to sending one to the rich man's brothers is that they wouldn't listen. One (Jesus) did go to all from the dead.

Another reason Catholics pray for the dead when we wonder at the thought is found in the Apocrypha Protestants do not regard as scripture; they do and the following is an example of leading to their thinking.

2 Machabees 12:42-44 ". . the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. [43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)



1)When The rich man tried to interceed for his family, He got rebuled by Abraham.

I wouln't say rebiuked. More tlike told it was pointless.


2)What the catholics don't tell us is, Those books weren't in the original Bible, The catholics added those after.
For instance, They wanted to a doctrine of praying for the dead, So they looked for something that would back it up, Then they found the book of Machabees.

Complete rubbish.

The Church used the Greek LXX Old Testament from the beginning.

It's a fact that most Jews of Jesus time, including Jesus used the Greek LXX.


Then they criticised Luther for restoring the Bible to it's righ number of books.

Luther removed books from the Bible. That's a FACT.

He also tried to remove NT books. He called the Epistle of James a book of straw and tiook it out of his early editions, and (I think Revelation)


3)The book of Machabees is unscriptural, The bIble doesn't teach giving silver or money as an offereing for the sins of the dead.
It is to late once a person dies.

The book of Maccabees was scriptural from the beginning and was for all Christians until Luther and the other "reformers" took it out.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #149 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 07:44:25 »
Quote
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Well since you are the one claiming Catholic teachings are not in line with the Bible, and you believe you can prove it, why not take the initiative yourself? Take one of the core Catholic teachings you posted earlier and illustrate how it's wrong according to the Bible.

I think it's a little unfair to claim that you can "prove" Catholic teachings wrong, then demand that Catholics offer up specific doctrines to be scrutinized. It's your claim, and as such the onus is on you to verify that claim.

Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.  ::nodding::


Only because you can't prove the catholic teachings are in the Bible.

I don't have to. You are the one that made thr rash claim

"Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural."

Just admit that you cannot do it.

As I said no catholic doctrine contradicts scripture.


Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

How does that contradict scripture?

When the rich man tried to interceed for his family, Abraham rebuked him.

Would you have a reference for that?




1)Praying to the departed, and the departed praying for us, And praying for the dead, Contradict scrpture, Because they aren't found in the Bible.

How can they contradict scripture if, as you claim, they are not in scripture?

2)Lk 16: 19--31.

That's because Lazarus was not in heaven and the Saints we pray to are in heaven. The situation is not the same.


That is a cop-out, There is no scriptures that say we pray to the saints in heaven.

It doesn't contradict scripture.

The Hebrew Bible text tells us that the departed don't know what is going on in the  earth, So how can they hear our prayers??.

Why is it you don't give scripture references when you make claims like that?

At the end of the Apostle Paul's life, He said he has finished his course,
Acts 20: 24.  2 Tim 4: 7.
Paul also said  to the Philippian Church,  "It is more needful for you if I stay".
He didn't say he would go to heaven and he will pray for us, Or he will hear and answear our prayers. Did he??

That proves nothing. You are arguing from silence.

Paul wanted to stay to continue to preach the gospel.

No point in preaching the gospel to those in heaven.

NO..NO.. When a saint has gone to be with the Lord, Their work is finnished.

Where does it say that in scripture?






1)Ecclesiastes 9: 5. &v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.

2)Stop twisting Phil 1: 24. Paul said to stay it is more needful for you.
If he went to heaven, He couldn't help them.
Preaching the gospel to the Philippian Christians wouldn't be any use to them, They were already saved, So how could Paul preaching the gospel to them, be needful???
Can't you see how you are twisting the scripturs??.

3)I have given you two scriptures where Paul mentions finishing his cours.
Act 20: 24.   2 Tim 4: 7... He never mentioned anything about going to heaven and praying for them, Or they could pray to him.


Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #150 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 07:46:40 »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #151 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 10:08:53 »
1)Ecclesiastes 9: 5. &v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.

There are two good reasonsn why the above is not relevant.

1. The dead then were in Hades not heaven. Heaven was closed until the death and resurrection of Jesus opened it.

2.  It cannot betaken literally. You would know that if you stopped ignoring the bit you left out of verse 5..
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost."

 Do you really believe that there is no more reward for those that died before Christ, for Abraham, for David etc?. That contradicts Heb 11:39-40


2)Stop twisting Phil 1: 24. Paul said to stay it is more needful for you.
If he went to heaven, He couldn't help them.
Preaching the gospel to the Philippian Christians wouldn't be any use to them, They were already saved, So how could Paul preaching the gospel to them, be needful???
Can't you see how you are twisting the scripturs??.

Ah, so you are taking Paul's letters as very specific to the people he wrote to and with no general application at all?

Can I ignore his letters to the Corinthians, the Ephesians, the Romans etc. because I am not a Corinthian, an Ephesian or a Roman?
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 1Tim 3:16.
And you are in error

Moreover Paul says in the following verses:
“Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #152 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 10:09:57 »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

Thank you.

If I have the time and internet connection I shall continue before then.

larry2

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #153 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 10:20:15 »

1) Ecclesiastes 9: 5. & v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.



Since the bible does not contradict itself, at least as far as God gives it, there must be opposing views of understanding. Abraham was in the grave, Abraham's bosom, or paradise but not dead, and Lazarus was there with him being comforted. The rich man in hell communicated with Abraham, and he was aware of torment. Now that paradise is in heaven, do you think the game has changed? They can no longer hear, or there is no awareness among the saints? Who do those prophesied as under the altar call to?
 ::shrug::

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #154 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 12:24:31 »
1)Ecclesiastes 9: 5. &v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.

There are two good reasonsn why the above is not relevant.

1. The dead then were in Hades not heaven. Heaven was closed until the death and resurrection of Jesus opened it.

2.  It cannot betaken literally. You would know that if you stopped ignoring the bit you left out of verse 5..
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost."

 Do you really believe that there is no more reward for those that died before Christ, for Abraham, for David etc?. That contradicts Heb 11:39-40


2)Stop twisting Phil 1: 24. Paul said to stay it is more needful for you.
If he went to heaven, He couldn't help them.
Preaching the gospel to the Philippian Christians wouldn't be any use to them, They were already saved, So how could Paul preaching the gospel to them, be needful???
Can't you see how you are twisting the scripturs??.

Ah, so you are taking Paul's letters as very specific to the people he wrote to and with no general application at all?

Can I ignore his letters to the Corinthians, the Ephesians, the Romans etc. because I am not a Corinthian, an Ephesian or a Roman?
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 1Tim 3:16.
And you are in error

Moreover Paul says in the following verses:
“Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #155 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 12:27:31 »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

Thank you.

If I have the time and internet connection I shall continue before then.


Hey, Winsome, If I don't hear from you again, Have a good Easter.

PS, Ask you priest about baptism being totally immersed.
And tell me what he says,I will be interested to see what he says about it.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #156 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 12:36:47 »

1) Ecclesiastes 9: 5. & v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.



Since the bible does not contradict itself, at least as far as God gives it, there must be opposing views of understanding. Abraham was in the grave, Abraham's bosom, or paradise but not dead, and Lazarus was there with him being comforted. The rich man in hell communicated with Abraham, and he was aware of torment. Now that paradise is in heaven, do you think the game has changed? They can no longer hear, or there is no awareness among the saints? Who do those prophesied as under the altar call to?
 ::shrug::


The people in heaven or hell will know what is going on wherever they are.
Lk 16: 19--31, proves this.
The people in heaven will be able to comunicate with each other, As will those in hell.

Eccl 9: 5, means they have no knowledge of what is hapening on the earth.

If you went abroad on holiday and had no comunicating back home, You wouldn't know what is happening at home, But you would know what is happening where you are.

Thats what Eccl 9: 5 means.. THERE IS NO CONTRADICTIONS.
If you know the Hebrew and Greek.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #157 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 13:19:00 »
1)Who said they were in Hades??, The Bible just says they were dead.
But wether they were in hades, Paradise or heaven, The principle is the  same.
PLEASE NOTE, It  says the dead know nothing.
It doesn't say they don't know anything until they get to heaven..DOES IT??.

The situation between Sheol/Hades and heaven is very different.

We have to remember in OT times the gates of heaven were closed to mankind. The Jews believed that those who died went to Sheol (Hades) which is not the same as Hell. Ideas were a bit vague, some thought they slept, some people think it was a place of natural happiness. But when Jesus died he went down to Sheol and released those that were there to join him in heaven.
“He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #158 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 13:26:24 »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

Thank you.

If I have the time and internet connection I shall continue before then.


Hey, Winsome, If I don't hear from you again, Have a good Easter.

PS, Ask you priest about baptism being totally immersed.
And tell me what he says,I will be interested to see what he says about it.

Don't need to ask my priest.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.

And as I showed from the quotation from the Didache, this was the procedure adopted by the Church from apstolic times.

Right, that's my last post for now.

I'm off to the Easter Vigil shortly.

I hope I can continue on say Monday and show you praying to Saints in heaven is based on the Bible - time and connection permitting.


Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #159 on: Sun Apr 08, 2012 - 01:03:10 »
1)Who said they were in Hades??, The Bible just says they were dead.
But wether they were in hades, Paradise or heaven, The principle is the  same.
PLEASE NOTE, It  says the dead know nothing.
It doesn't say they don't know anything until they get to heaven..DOES IT??.

The situation between Sheol/Hades and heaven is very different.

We have to remember in OT times the gates of heaven were closed to mankind. The Jews believed that those who died went to Sheol (Hades) which is not the same as Hell. Ideas were a bit vague, some thought they slept, some people think it was a place of natural happiness. But when Jesus died he went down to Sheol and released those that were there to join him in heaven.
“He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison.

Offline 3rd Heaven

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #160 on: Sun Apr 08, 2012 - 03:11:26 »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #161 on: Sun Apr 08, 2012 - 13:49:11 »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.


The dead know what is going on around them, But they don't know waht is hapening on the earth.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #162 on: Sun Apr 08, 2012 - 14:01:50 »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.


The dead know what is going on around them, But they don't know waht is hapening on the earth.

Those who are in the Bosom of God know whats going on earth.

Revelation 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?



Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #163 on: Mon Apr 09, 2012 - 02:41:40 »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.


The dead know what is going on around them, But they don't know waht is hapening on the earth.

Those who are in the Bosom of God know whats going on earth.

Revelation 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?





1)The saints said "How long ",  in Rev 6:  10, was because God had told them,9--11,

2)Rev 5..Onwards has nothing to do with the Chuch age, The Church has been raptured to heaven by then.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #164 on: Mon Apr 09, 2012 - 09:04:18 »
"Praying to the dead"

Point 1.
Catholics don’t pray to dead people. We pray to the Saints alive in heaven.

God is the God of the living not the dead (Mt 22:32)

Point 2.
When Catholics use the phrase “praying to a Saint

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #165 on: Mon Apr 09, 2012 - 12:21:12 »
"Praying to the dead"

Point 1.
Catholics don’t pray to dead people. We pray to the Saints alive in heaven.

God is the God of the living not the dead (Mt 22:32)

Point 2.
When Catholics use the phrase “praying to a Saint

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #166 on: Mon Apr 09, 2012 - 13:30:08 »
1)You said catholics pray to the saints in heaven, And theinterceed for us.
Scriptures please.

2)What has 1 Cor11: 1. Col 1: 9--10 and 2 Thess 1: 11. Got to do with the saints in heaven praying for us, And us praying to them??
Paul was talking about in THIS life time.
As was Col 4: 3. Rom 15: 30--35. & 1 Thess 5: 25.
Paul said his work wa finished.

Where does the Bible mention praying to, and for them in heaven??.
I gave them to you – see points 3, 4 & 5.

Cannot you follow a simple argument or do I need to go through it with you step by step?

3)The catholic teaching of the communion of the saints in heaven, Is unscriptural.
Show me how it is unscriptural

Born again Christians will have communion with them when they get to heaven.
Born again Christians have communion with them now.

We are all part of the one body of Christ.

Does Christ have two bodies, one on earth and one in heaven?

Can't you see how the catholic church diliberately uses scriptures that don't say what the catholics says they mean.
No it doesn’t and you haven’t  shown me how it does.

You haven’t even given me one pice of scripture to back up you opinions.

You give me nothing but your opinions

So, Give me scriptures that clearly say the saints in heaven pray for us, And we can pray to them.

And while you are at it, Give me scriptures that prove we can pray for the departed.

I have in points 3,4 & 5


PS. Did you ask your priest about baptism??.

I gave you my reply to that. Do you ever bother to read what I say.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #167 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 01:34:55 »
1)You said catholics pray to the saints in heaven, And theinterceed for us.
Scriptures please.

2)What has 1 Cor11: 1. Col 1: 9--10 and 2 Thess 1: 11. Got to do with the saints in heaven praying for us, And us praying to them??
Paul was talking about in THIS life time.
As was Col 4: 3. Rom 15: 30--35. & 1 Thess 5: 25.
Paul said his work wa finished.

Where does the Bible mention praying to, and for them in heaven??.
I gave them to you – see points 3, 4 & 5.

Cannot you follow a simple argument or do I need to go through it with you step by step?

3)The catholic teaching of the communion of the saints in heaven, Is unscriptural.
Show me how it is unscriptural

Born again Christians will have communion with them when they get to heaven.
Born again Christians have communion with them now.

We are all part of the one body of Christ.

Does Christ have two bodies, one on earth and one in heaven?

Can't you see how the catholic church diliberately uses scriptures that don't say what the catholics says they mean.
No it doesn’t and you haven’t  shown me how it does.

You haven’t even given me one pice of scripture to back up you opinions.

You give me nothing but your opinions

So, Give me scriptures that clearly say the saints in heaven pray for us, And we can pray to them.

And while you are at it, Give me scriptures that prove we can pray for the departed.

I have in points 3,4 & 5


PS. Did you ask your priest about baptism??.

I gave you my reply to that. Do you ever bother to read what I say.





1)Your 3,4,5 points are just you twisting the scriptures.

2)You cannot give me scriptures for praying to the departed saints, Or them praying for us.
You can't give scriptures for praying for the departed.
You cannot give me scriptures for having communion with the heavenly saints.
Eph 1: 10 says In the future, [When we get to heaven],we will have communion with the heavenly saints.

3)There is only ONE mediator between man and God, Jesus. 1 Tim 2: 4-5.

4)The departed saints have ended their works, 2 Tim 4: 7--8. Rev 14: 13.
They have gone on to their rewards, And have no more communion with us, Untill we get to heaven.


Your arguement is against God and His word, the Bible.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #168 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 03:49:44 »

Dr Truth

You are constantly making claims that you cannot backup.

You made this boast
Quote from:
Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural.

When pressed on this you constantly evaded it, trying to put the onus on Catholics instead of fulfilling your empty boast.

For example:
Quote from:
I take it you can't give me ONE catholic teaching from the Bible??
That's because they aren't in the Bible.

As I said
Quote from:
No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture, so you cannot prove they are wrong from scripture.

Then you made this ridiculous claim:
Quote from:
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Finally you said:
Quote from:
Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

Please note that you have still ducked your original boast:
Quote from:
Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural.


I have shown you how the Catholic doctrine of asking the Saints in heaven to intercede for us is logical and based on scripture.


You have made no attempt to disprove what I said. As usual when you have no answer you just say I am twisting scripture.

Do you say how I am twisting scriopture? NO
Do you make any attempt to show me where I am wrong? NO

You have made no attempt to show how what I said contradicts scripture.

You have made no attempt to back up your empty boast that you could prove from the Bible that this teaching is wrong.

You have made no attempt to back up your empty boast that this teaching isn’t scriptural

When are you going to stop boasting and back up your empty boasts?



Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #169 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 04:12:29 »

2)You cannot give me scriptures for praying to the departed saints, Or them praying for us.
You can't give scriptures for praying for the departed.

I have given them to you but you do not respond to the scripture I gave you.

You cannot give me scriptures for having communion with the heavenly saints.
I have given you the scripture but you do not respond to the scripture I gave you.

Eph 1: 10 says In the future, [When we get to heaven],we will have communion with the heavenly saints.

Eph 1:10 says at the end ALL things will be united in Christ.
It doesn't say that NOTHING will be united in Christ until then.

Are you seriously suggesting that those that go to heaven are cut off from Christ?

3)There is only ONE mediator between man and God, Jesus. 1 Tim 2: 4-5.

That is a really stupid use of scripture.

If asking someone to pray for you contradicts 1Tim 2:4-5 then why does Paul ask people to pray for him?
Why does Paul pray for people?

4)The departed saints have ended their works, 2 Tim 4: 7--8. Rev 14: 13.
2Tim 4:7-8 - Paulis talking about his salvation and achieving the crown of righteousness. He doesnn't say anything about finishing his work of praying for us.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #170 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 06:38:52 »

Dr Truth

You are constantly making claims that you cannot backup.

You made this boast
Quote from:
Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural.

When pressed on this you constantly evaded it, trying to put the onus on Catholics instead of fulfilling your empty boast.

For example:
Quote from:
I take it you can't give me ONE catholic teaching from the Bible??
That's because they aren't in the Bible.

As I said
Quote from:
No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture, so you cannot prove they are wrong from scripture.

Then you made this ridiculous claim:
Quote from:
I take it that you either don't know the Bible, Or what the catholics teach, Because the catholic teachins does contradict the Bible.
You won't give me a chance to prove it.

Finally you said:
Quote from:
Here is one catholic doctrine you wont find in the Bible.
Praying to the departed, The departed praying for us, And praying for the dead.

Please note that you have still ducked your original boast:
Quote from:
Give me one catholic teaching, And I will prove to you from the Bible that it isn't scriptural.


I have shown you how the Catholic doctrine of asking the Saints in heaven to intercede for us is logical and based on scripture.


You have made no attempt to disprove what I said. As usual when you have no answer you just say I am twisting scripture.

Do you say how I am twisting scriopture? NO
Do you make any attempt to show me where I am wrong? NO

You have made no attempt to show how what I said contradicts scripture.

You have made no attempt to back up your empty boast that you could prove from the Bible that this teaching is wrong.

You have made no attempt to back up your empty boast that this teaching isn’t scriptural

When are you going to stop boasting and back up your empty boasts?





1)You said I am constantly making claims that I can't back up, Read my post, #167.
And see how wrong you are.

2)catholic doctrines do contradict the scriptures.
If they don't,  Prove it.

3)You haven't given scriptures that prove we can pray to the departed saints.
You have said the catholics teach it, But you can't back it up with scriptures.

I think your telling me porkies.

You haven't given me ONE sriptures that say we can pray to the saints in heaven.

So, Give me scriptures please,
I have shown you that the Bible says there is only ONE mediater, And that is Jesus.
How can you possibly get praying to the heavenly saints out of that??.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #171 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 07:02:37 »

2)You cannot give me scriptures for praying to the departed saints, Or them praying for us.
You can't give scriptures for praying for the departed.

I have given them to you but you do not respond to the scripture I gave you.

You cannot give me scriptures for having communion with the heavenly saints.
I have given you the scripture but you do not respond to the scripture I gave you.

Eph 1: 10 says In the future, [When we get to heaven],we will have communion with the heavenly saints.

Eph 1:10 says at the end ALL things will be united in Christ.
It doesn't say that NOTHING will be united in Christ until then.

Are you seriously suggesting that those that go to heaven are cut off from Christ?

3)There is only ONE mediator between man and God, Jesus. 1 Tim 2: 4-5.

That is a really stupid use of scripture.

If asking someone to pray for you contradicts 1Tim 2:4-5 then why does Paul ask people to pray for him?
Why does Paul pray for people?

4)The departed saints have ended their works, 2 Tim 4: 7--8. Rev 14: 13.
2Tim 4:7-8 - Paulis talking about his salvation and achieving the crown of righteousness. He doesnn't say anything about finishing his work of praying for us.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #172 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 08:21:51 »
Purgatory is where sinners/transgressors are bound for 10 million years. Eternal hell is a black hole, pillars of fire are radiation that black holes emit. Enoch 21 explains it clearly.

Enoch
21:1   And came to an empty place.
21:2   And I saw there neither a heaven above nor an earth below, but a chaotic and terrible place.
21:3   And there I saw seven stars of heaven bound together in it, like great mountains, and burning with fire.
21:4   At that moment said I, “For which sin are they bound, and for what reason were they cast in here.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #173 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 10:49:26 »
Purgatory is where sinners/transgressors are bound for 10 million years. Eternal hell is a black hole, pillars of fire are radiation that black holes emit. Enoch 21 explains it clearly.

Enoch
21:1   And came to an empty place.
21:2   And I saw there neither a heaven above nor an earth below, but a chaotic and terrible place.
21:3   And there I saw seven stars of heaven bound together in it, like great mountains, and burning with fire.
21:4   At that moment said I, “For which sin are they bound, and for what reason were they cast in here.

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #174 on: Tue Apr 10, 2012 - 10:58:05 »
Enoch contradicts the Bible.


Which bible the OT or the NT?

http://alaskandreams.net/ekklesia/Book%20of%20Enoch%20NT%20Verses.htm

Book of Enoch
(Ethopic Version)
These are verses from the Book of Enoch that are quoted in the New Testament by Christ and the Apostles, or are otherwise of interest

Enoch 2:1-2 Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


(In a dream Enoch is speaking with angels in their tongue and now he was speaking in the tongue of Men)

Enoch 14:1 This is the book of the words of righteousness, and of the reproof of the Watchers, who belong to the world, according to that which He, who is holy and great, commanded in the vision. I perceived in my dream, that I was now speaking with a tongue of flesh, and with my breath, which the Mighty One has put into the mouth of men, that they might converse with it.

Enoch 83:1 1I lifted up my hands in righteousness, and blessed the holy, and the Great One. I spoke with the breath of my mouth, and with a tongue of flesh, which God has formed for all the sons of mortal men, that with it they may speak; giving them breath, a mouth, and a tongue to converse with.

I Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak in the tongues of men and of Angels . . .


(The souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with the Most High)

Enoch 9:9-12 Thus has the whole earth been filled with blood and with iniquity.And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out. And complain even to the gate of heaven. Their groaning ascends; nor can they escape from the unrighteousness which is committed on earth. You know all things, before they exist.

Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


(The phrase King of Kings and Lord of Lords is used 3x’s in the New Testament. The importance of this is that other than in the Book of Enoch this phrase is not found in the Old Testament.)

Enoch 9:2-3 The earth deprived of her children has cried even to the gate of heaven. And now to you, O you holy one of heaven, the souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with the Most High. Then they said to their Lord, the King, You are Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings The throne of your glory is for ever and ever, and for ever and ever is your name sanctified and glorified. You are blessed and glorified.

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.……


Enoch 3:1-3 All who are in the heavens know what is transacted there.They know that the heavenly luminaries change not their paths; that each rises and sets regularly, every one at its proper period, without transgressing the commands, which they have received. The behold the earth, and understand what is there transacted, from the beginning to the end of it.They see that every work of God is invariable in the period of its appearance.
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Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Enoch 9:9-12 Thus has the whole earth been filled with blood and with iniquity. 10And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out. 11And complain even to the gate of heaven. 12Their groaning ascends; nor can they escape from the unrighteousness which is committed on earth. You know all things, before they exist.

Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Joel 1:18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.
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John 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave.

Romans 8:21-23 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(I believe that God has left in men groaning and crying. These are largely unintelligible tongues, that enable the heart and spirit of man when overwhelmed to speak to or entreat God. The Baptism of the Spirit opens up to believers a much broader ability to pray directly to God than in groaning and crying, Paul says we with the impartation of God now pray in the spirit, sing in the spirit, intercede in the spirit, to travail in the spirit, and conduct warfare in the spirit. In another sphere there is speaking in diverse tongues and Interpretation of tongues. These are eluded to in the following passage in the book of Enoch.)

Enoch 14:1 This is the book of the words of righteousness, and of the reproof of the Watchers, who belong to the world, according to that which He, who is holy and great, commanded in the vision. I perceived in my dream, that I was now speaking with a tongue of flesh, and with my breath, which the Mighty One has put into the mouth of men, that they might converse with it.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(In the Old Testament there is little distinction made between the languages of men and of angels it is only in the book of Enoch that there is a clear distinction made between conversing with angels conversing in the tongue of men. It should further be noted that this is prior to the tower of Babel – and the Lord further dividing the language of men in order to slow down iniquity and corruption among men.)

Enoch 14:2 And understand with the heart. As he has created and given to men the power of comprehending the word of understanding, so has he created and given to me the power of reproving the Watchers, the offspring of heaven.

(This second verse would seem to refer of the gift of the Spirit -- if we couple this with the first verse about speaking in the tongues of men and of angels this would speak of a comprehension or the ability to interpret those words spoken – or a gift of the interpretation of tongues.)

(Chapter 14 is especially significant because the fallen angels entreat Enoch to pray for them that they might obtain mercy from God – and Enoch takes up their cause, composes a prayer that includes these fallen angels walk with God and Enoch reads it over and over until he falls asleep – Enoch then has a dreams where God instructs him. To me these actions of Enoch are the embodiment of 1 Corinthians 13:1 –Even to a clearly evil race Enoch shows love and mercy.)

Enoch 19 :6-7 But you (Angels) from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever. Therefore I made not wives for you, (The Angels) because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.

Matthew 22:29-30 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Enoch 24:3 (The Tree of Life)Among these there was a tree of an unceasing smell; nor of those which were in Eden was there one of all the fragrant trees which smelt like this. Its leaf, its flower, and its bark never withered, and its fruit was beautiful. . . The fruit of the tree shall be given to the elect

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Enoch 24:2 Then Uriel, one of the holy angels who were with me, replied, This valley is the accursed of the accursed for ever. Here shall be collected all who utter with their mouths unbecoming language against God, and speak harsh things of His glory. Here shall they be collected. Here shall be their territory.

(This is the sin of blasphemeing the Holy Ghost)
Enoch 37:1 This is the commencement of the word of wisdom, which I received to declare.

Enoch 40:3 Then I heard the voices of those upon the four sides magnifying the Lord of glory. The first voice blessed the Lord of spirits for ever and for ever. The second voice I heard blessing the Elect One, and the elect who suffer on account of the Lord of spirits. The third voice I heard petitioning and praying for those who dwell upon earth, and supplicate the name of the Lord of spirits. The fourth voice I heard expelling the impious angels, and prohibiting them from entering into the presence of the Lord of spirits, to prefer accusations against the inhabitants of the earth It would have been better for them, had they never been born.

2 Peter 2:11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.


Enoch 46:1-3 There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days. 2He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwelt; who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness.

Revelation 1:13-14And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Enoch 48:1 In that place I beheld a fountain of righteousness, which never failed, encircled by many springs of wisdom. Of these all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


 

     
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