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Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 01:26:50 »

Hebrews chapter 11.

Regards,
AsAChild
What do you think Hebrews 11 is saying that addresses my question, validates your point and nullifies mine?

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 01:26:50 »

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 02:33:40 »
Oh boy!  I thought I explained this earlier.  Hell was one place divided in two sections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.  why do you think it says in the Apostles Creed that Jesus descended into hell?  Jesus went to the paradise side.  See also Luke 16: 19-31.

Also someone said that the people in the OT had a different system than we do. Ya, you're right, it was much harder. Okay, think of it this way.  If an unrepentant idol worshipper in this age, the age of grace, goes to hell, than he certainly would go to hell in the OT.  Also heaven wasn't even an option in the OT, except for Elijah and Enoch, but they didn't die either.  So, if heaven wasn't available to OT believers, than where were these people praying these men into?  You also have to realize too, that not everything people do in the bible is approved by God, look at Abraham, he lied and said Sarah was his sister.  See Gen 20.  So, sometimes things are recorded, but it doesn't necessarily mean that God wants us to do them too.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 02:33:40 »

Offline asachild

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #37 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 02:42:17 »
Quote
People of the OT are not judged according to Christian standards.  The requirement for Jews is fidelity to the covenant – to the Torah.

This might make it clearer for you.  If according to most Protestants it is faith in Christ that saves, then Moses and Abraham and all the rest of those Old Testament people are in hell because they did not know Christ at all let alone had faith in Him.
Quote
Hebrews chapter 11.
Quote
Quote
What do you think Hebrews 11 is saying that addresses my question, validates your point and nullifies mine?
It's a chapter iterating 'faith' and listing example after example of OT individuals and commending their faith. 

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. <...>All these people were still living by faith when they died. "

Abraham didn't have Torah, nor did the Patriarchs, nor did a great many of the OT  'cloud of witnesses'  listed in Hebrews 11.  What they all seemed to have and were commended for was their faith.  Faith that what God said was true - faith in the faithfulness of God it seems.  Because Scripture goes on to say, "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from afar."   

Jesus Himself said that the greatest commandment was "love the Lord thy God."   

The Father said "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, while their hearts are far from Me, and their fear of Me is a commandment taught by men." Is. 29:13)

For some reason, God wants our heart, our love.

Some time ago, I was reading in John 5:18 where the Jews were after Jesus because He was 'breaking the Sabbath' and 'He was even calling God His Own Father, making Himself equal with God."  So, I decided to go search the OT to see about this calling God Father.  And I found this Scripture in Jer. 3:  "I Myself said, 'How gladly I would treat you like sons and give you a desirable land, the most beautiful inheritance of any nation. I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from Me."

There is something so poignant about "I thought you would call me Father"

Regards,
AsAChild

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #38 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 03:00:01 »
I just wanted to clarify hell a bit more.  It's late (almost 4am) and I'm not sure I explained it right.  Hell was 2 compartments, place of torment, and Abrahams bosom (paradise).  So when Jesus went to hell, he went to Abrahams bosom, and there he preached the gospel, not in place of torment.  So, no, people in hell or torment can't be saved, then or now.  I think maybe why we call the place of torment, hell, now, is technically there's no longer 2 compartments in hell anymore, just one, place of torment.  Paradise was emptied when Jesus rose from the grave, and those people went to heaven.


Offline chosenone

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 03:19:31 »
Amen cs. There are no second chances. Once we die we go one way or the other.
And that is true. There are no second chances. Those in purgatory are destined for heaven. It is not like a holding cell where there is a possibility of going to hell.

Perhaps a simple analogy will help.  If heaven is the banquet, then purgatory will be the anteroom where one gets completely cleaned up and dressed for those who did not managed to get scrubbed completely clean while still on earth.

And it is not a second chance because there, the soul cannot do anything for his/herself anymore.

Pace et Bonum,

Teresa


 Trouble is this isn't Biblical. Jesus said to the man on the cross, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. Not in a year when you have been 'cleansed', not next week, but today. This was a man who reached out to Jesus at his death. No where does God says that we are to go somewhere before that. Its entirely made up by man, who for whatever reason cant accept that because of the death of Jesus we are perfect before God, and therefore we wont need cleansing because the death of Jesus has cleansed us completely. HE has done all that is needed.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 03:36:25 by chosenone »

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 03:19:31 »



Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #40 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 04:19:31 »
Trouble is this isn't Biblical. Jesus said to the man on the cross, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. Not in a year when you have been 'cleansed', not next week, but today. 
That day Jesus was hanging on the cross dying.  So you are saying that the thief was with Jesus in heaven ( I am assuming this is how you interpret paradise) then?  Don't you know that Jesus remained dead for the 3 days?

Pace et Bonum,

Teresa


Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #41 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 04:36:50 »
Oh boy!  I thought I explained this earlier.  Hell was one place divided in two sections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.  why do you think it says in the Apostles Creed that Jesus descended into hell?  Jesus went to the paradise side.  See also Luke 16: 19-31.
Greea, I hope you realize that the story of Lazarus and the richman is a parable.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #42 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 04:42:40 »
It's a chapter iterating 'faith' and listing example after example of OT individuals and commending their faith.  

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. <...>All these people were still living by faith when they died. "  
But I thought that the protestant line is that faith must in be in Christ. Since they did not know Christ how does that support the protestant understanding?

Quote
Jesus Himself said that the greatest commandment was "love the Lord thy God."  
And that is the real key.  Faith is important but in the end it is love that matters. And love IS WORK.

This is why even though Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, we further say that we are saved by grace through faith working in love.  St Paul himself said that of faith, hope and love, the greatest is love.  And as I have said above - LOVE IS WORK.

Once one understands this, then we see the harmony in the Scriptures. Faith is not enough.

Quote
The Father said "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, while their hearts are far from Me, and their fear of Me is a commandment taught by men." Is. 29:13)

For some reason, God wants our heart, our love.

Some time ago, I was reading in John 5:18 where the Jews were after Jesus because He was 'breaking the Sabbath' and 'He was even calling God His Own Father, making Himself equal with God."  So, I decided to go search the OT to see about this calling God Father.  And I found this Scripture in Jer. 3:  "I Myself said, 'How gladly I would treat you like sons and give you a desirable land, the most beautiful inheritance of any nation. I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from Me."

There is something so poignant about "I thought you would call me Father"
Yes, we often speak of our search for God but never really think about God's search for us.

That is so beautiful, AsaChild. Soooo beautiful!  I love the way you have tied it all together  ::tippinghat::

Pace et Bonum,

Teresa
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 04:51:46 by Teresa »

Offline asachild

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #43 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 06:17:06 »
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But I thought that the protestant line is that faith must in be in Christ. Since they did not know Christ how does that support the protestant understanding?

"I and My Father are One."

Jn 8:42- "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and now am here."

Jn 8:54- "My father whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies Me. Though you do *not* know Him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

Those who loved the Father recognized and loved the Son.  Those who loved the Son loved the Father.

One of my favorite passages is in Luke 2:

"Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and *the Holy Spirit* was upon him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took Him into his arms and praised God, saying: 'Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

<...>

"There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the trive of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after marriage, and then was a widow until she was eight-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem."

Love that we have 2 elderly folks here, male and female,  one who had received revelation from God that he would see God's salvation and was moved by the Spirit to be at the 'right place at the right time' and one who had dedicated her life to ministering to the Lord and was also in the 'right place at the right time'. 

*They knew*.

Quote
This is why even though Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, we further say that we are saved by grace through faith working in love.  St Paul himself said that of faith, hope and love, the greatest is love.  And as I have said above - LOVE IS WORK.

Once one understands this, then we see the harmony in the Scriptures. Faith is not enough.

My difference here is that I do not think that I am saved by any of my own efforts (lest any man should boast), BUT, true faith will produce works/fruit.  I *totally* agree with you that love takes effort.  :) 

Works/fruit comes as a result of Christ's life in me, evidence of a living faith. "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Regards (and peace to you as well!),
AsAChild

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #44 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 07:28:18 »
"I and My Father are One."

Jn 8:42- "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and now am here."

Jn 8:54- "My father whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies Me. Though you do *not* know Him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

Those who loved the Father recognized and loved the Son.  Those who loved the Son loved the Father.

One of my favorite passages is in Luke 2:

"Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and *the Holy Spirit* was upon him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took Him into his arms and praised God, saying: 'Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

<...>

"There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the trive of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after marriage, and then was a widow until she was eight-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem."

Love that we have 2 elderly folks here, male and female,  one who had received revelation from God that he would see God's salvation and was moved by the Spirit to be at the 'right place at the right time' and one who had dedicated her life to ministering to the Lord and was also in the 'right place at the right time'. 

*They knew*.
That is very well said.  However, that still does not address the common Protestant (Evangelical?) statement that it must be the person of Jesus Christ that  one must have faith in.  That is why I said before that if one were to stick to the "faith alone" proposition and this faith being in the Person of Jesus Christ, then cuts out those who did not know Christ (Jew or Gentile).
Quote
My difference here is that I do not think that I am saved by any of my own efforts (lest any man should boast), BUT, true faith will produce works/fruit.  I *totally* agree with you that love takes effort.  :) 

Works/fruit comes as a result of Christ's life in me, evidence of a living faith. "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Regards (and peace to you as well!),
AsAChild
I like that last bit particularly because that is very close to the Catholic understanding. 

I must add too that it is not so much that faith in Christ produces these good works (we know many who believe in Christ but fail in this department and there are also many who do not know Christ who do good works).

I think this faith vs good works problem only arise when one thinks of salvation as being "plucked from the earth" and "transported to heaven" because one believed.

Salvation as Beckwith (former President of the ETS) put it is not so much getting into heaven but of getting heaven into us. Salvation consists in our transformation in Christ and good works is transformative. Everytime we do an act of love (which is work) then we increasingly image the Son. And all this is grace. Faith is a grace and so is good works.

God prepared for us to do good works not just so we can do good works but because good works is what the life of the Spirit is all about, it is about love.

Pace et Bonum,

Teresa

Offline chosenone

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #45 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 08:57:49 »
Trouble is this isn't Biblical. Jesus said to the man on the cross, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. Not in a year when you have been 'cleansed', not next week, but today. 
That day Jesus was hanging on the cross dying.  So you are saying that the thief was with Jesus in heaven ( I am assuming this is how you interpret paradise) then?  Don't you know that Jesus remained dead for the 3 days?

Pace et Bonum,

Teresa




 God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #46 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 19:58:40 »
God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!

Of course He does. That was never in question. What was in question was your interpretation of what He said.

Pace et Bonum

Teresa

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #47 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 20:08:49 »
Since when does a parable negate the truth within it's trying to convey?  If it did, it would defeat the purpose of a parable.  Also Jesus mentioned paradise on the cross when he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise.  How do you Catholics explain what you recite at every mass, Jesus descended into hell?  You don't really think he went to actual hell, do you?  Regardless, paradise or no paradise, unrepentent idol worshippers who die go to hell in this age of grace, and would most definetely go in the age of judgement.  You can't pray anyone out of hell!

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #48 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 20:18:11 »
Since when does a parable negate the truth within it's trying to convey?  If it did, it would defeat the purpose of a parable.  Also Jesus mentioned paradise on the cross when he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise.  How do you Catholics explain what you recite at every mass, Jesus descended into hell?  You don't really think he went to actual hell, do you?  Regardless, paradise or no paradise, unrepentent idol worshippers who die go to hell in this age of grace, and would most definetely go in the age of judgement.  You can't pray anyone out of hell!
That is true but what you were trying to support with the parable is the concept that paradise and hell are one and the same place except that they are compartmentalized.

The descent into hell is the descent of Christ into the dead to proclaim His Gospel to those who have died before.

Also if Paradise is not an eartly place then you are already admitting to a realm that is neither heaven nor hell nor the earth.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #49 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 21:16:33 »
Alright, so where did Jesus preach to the dead?  Where did he go to do that? The truth in the parable says that one side was Abraham's bosom and one side was place of torment, there was a gulf between them that nobody could cross.  It was considered the underworld. Hell in OT is shehole: hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat) includ. its accessories and inmates_grave, hell, pit.  In the NT in Greek, one is Geenna:  valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-hinnom), a valley of Jerus, use (fig) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:_hell.  The second one is hades: place of departed souls:_grave, hell.

Also in Psalm 86:13 talking about Jesus....Great has been your kindness me; you have rescued me from the depths of the nether world (hell). Using a Catholic bible here on this one. Also Psalm 139: 8.....If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I sink to the nether world (hell), you are present there.  Again Catholic bible.  Now, you don't believe God is in the torment side of hell, do you?  What part of hell is he in?  Paradise of course.  Whether it's Jesus preaching to the OT believers in paradise those 3 days, or God of all time, he's in paradise.  Also if hell didn't have 2 sides, again I ask, why does the creed you recite every week use the word hell?  As far as agreeing that there's is another place beside hell and heaven, sort of I guess but actually no because paradise is part of hell, in the OT.  Now, paradise has been emptied (by Jesus) and now hell is all torment.  Let me give you an earthly example.  I live in central Fl, and sometimes we go to Disney World.  Well Disney World consists of 4 theme parks (not counting water parks, and entertainment places, etc), Magic Kingdom, Epcot, Hollywood Studios, Animal Kingdom.  Now, it's all called Disney World.  If I go to Disney World, I may only go to Magic Kingdom.  I may truthfully tell someone, Oh I went to Disney World today, or I just may say, I went to the Magic Kingdom today.  Now if I tell someone who doesn't live here that I went to Disney World today, most likely they will automatically think the Magic Kingdom, and let it go from there. Most non-locals think Magic Kingdom is Disney World, no, it's a part of Disney World not exclusively DW.  If I say to someone who lives here the same, they will ask me, Which park did you go to?.  Then I will say Magic Kingdom.  Well, thirty years ago though, if I said I went to DW then yes, it would've been exclusively Magic Kingdom.  That was the only park they had here in Fl at that time.  So think of the bible in reverse in this story, OT had hell (Disney World), which consisted of 2 places, torment and paradise (Magic Kingdom and Epcot, 2nd park),  so if someone went to hell before the resurrection, it would've been 1 of 2 places.  Now in the NT, hell (Disney World pre- 1988) is 1 place  (Magic Kingdom)only.  I hope this doesn't confuse you, but I don't know how else to explain it.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #50 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 21:19:55 »
Oh, also, maybe now that the paradise side is emptied, God uses it now for the overflow.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #51 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 21:42:56 »
Alright, so where did Jesus preach to the dead?  Where did he go to do that? The truth in the parable says that one side was Abraham's bosom and one side was place of torment, there was a gulf between them that nobody could cross.  
Just a quick response regarding your idea of hell and paradise.

If Paradise is part of Hades where is it? Is it part of the earth or is it a different realm altogether?

When Adam and Eve were placed in Paradise, was this Paradise part of the earth or not? Is the Paradise you speak of the same Paradise that is mentioned in Genesis?

So where do you think Adam and Eve were before they were banished? Were they banished from Paradise and to the earth? But the story of creation says that God created the earth and Adam and Eve were formed from the soil of this earth.

These questions are just meant to clarify what you are trying to say based on how you understand the Bible .

Pace et Bonum,

Theresa

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #52 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 23:02:51 »
No the Paradise that was in Genesis was here on earth.  The paradise or maybe a better word, Abraham's Bosom, is in hell, or was in hell.  It's now empty.  I believe that most bible scholars say that hell is in the center of the earth.  I believe that from several scriptures, it is indeed most likely in the center of the earth.  It's an actual physical place, as heaven is.  Also when Saul consulted the witch of Endor, and had Samuel brought back, 1 Sam 28....verse 13....But the king said to her, "Have no fear.  What do you see?"  The woman answered Saul, "I see a preternatural being rising from the earth."  So, since Samuel was a righteous man, he wasn't in heaven yet, Jesus hadn't come yet, so he was in Abrahams Bosom, under the earth, in what is also known as hell.  But, lets put is this way, he was on the right side of the tracks, so to speak.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #53 on: Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 23:06:47 »
Taken from Catholic Catechism...........633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #54 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 00:23:02 »
Trouble is this isn't Biblical. Jesus said to the man on the cross, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. Not in a year when you have been 'cleansed', not next week, but today. 
That day Jesus was hanging on the cross dying.  So you are saying that the thief was with Jesus in heaven ( I am assuming this is how you interpret paradise) then?  Don't you know that Jesus remained dead for the 3 days?

Pace et Bonum,

Teresa




 God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!
There's some controversy about this verse in scholarly circles.  It's not entirely clear in the original language whether the verse says,

Today I say to you, you...
or
I say to you, Today you...

Not to say one side or the other is right.  Only that there's an ambiguity there.

Jarrod

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #55 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 00:48:39 »
Well, Jesus had to say today because Jesus only went to paradise for 3 days, then he was resurrected.  So, unless a thief can be purified in 3 days or less, they both went to paradise the same day.  Oh and also note, the thief wasn't even baptized.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #56 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 02:37:29 »
God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!

Of course He does. That was never in question. What was in question was your interpretation of what He said.

Pace et Bonum

Teresa

  Sorry but there is no biblical evidence for a place of purgatory. Its something that has again been made up by man for their own ends.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #57 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 02:41:09 »
Well, Jesus had to say today because Jesus only went to paradise for 3 days, then he was resurrected.  So, unless a thief can be purified in 3 days or less, they both went to paradise the same day.  Oh and also note, the thief wasn't even baptized.


 You are so right. I have also used this amazing story in the past to show that we do NOT have to be baptised to be saved. This man did nothing but ask for Jesus help and believe that He had a kingdom, and he was saved. Amazing!!!I LOVE this story. ::clappingoverhead::

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #58 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 03:11:00 »
No the Paradise that was in Genesis was here on earth.  The paradise or maybe a better word, Abraham's Bosom, is in hell, or was in hell.  It's now empty.  I believe that most bible scholars say that hell is in the center of the earth.  I believe that from several scriptures, it is indeed most likely in the center of the earth.  It's an actual physical place, as heaven is.  Also when Saul consulted the witch of Endor, and had Samuel brought back, 1 Sam 28....verse 13....But the king said to her, "Have no fear.  What do you see?"  The woman answered Saul, "I see a preternatural being rising from the earth."  So, since Samuel was a righteous man, he wasn't in heaven yet, Jesus hadn't come yet, so he was in Abrahams Bosom, under the earth, in what is also known as hell.  But, lets put is this way, he was on the right side of the tracks, so to speak.
Thank you for this clarification and the reference to the Catechism.

Firstly, I am not sure how to take you reference to the Witch of Endor when necromancy is forbidden in the Bible.

Secondly, why would dead spirits be in a physical place.  Time and Space are both temporal realities. When we die we are no longer subject to these so why is it a physical place?

As for heaven, we say God is in heaven.  If heaven is God's "abode" and exists outside of time and space how can He be in a physical place.

Thirdly, I seem to have lost track of the trend but how does this exactly prove false the doctrine on purgatory?

Peace and All Good,

Teresa

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #59 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 03:12:37 »
God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!

Of course He does. That was never in question. What was in question was your interpretation of what He said.

Pace et Bonum

Teresa

  Sorry but there is no biblical evidence for a place of purgatory. Its something that has again been made up by man for their own ends.

The Catholic Church does not say that purgatory is a place.  For that matter, neither is heaven or hell.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #60 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 03:14:54 »
Well, Jesus had to say today because Jesus only went to paradise for 3 days, then he was resurrected.  So, unless a thief can be purified in 3 days or less, they both went to paradise the same day.  Oh and also note, the thief wasn't even baptized.


 You are so right. I have also used this amazing story in the past to show that we do NOT have to be baptised to be saved. This man did nothing but ask for Jesus help and believe that He had a kingdom, and he was saved. Amazing!!!I LOVE this story. ::clappingoverhead::
The thief went through a Baptism by Desire.

We do have to be baptized (at least those who come to know Christ now) because that is His command and this is how the apostles have always done it.

Peace and All Good,

Teresa

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #61 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 13:10:18 »
Didn't I give the reference to the Witch of Endor?  I'm in a hurry, have an appointment.  I'll look it up and post again later.  Anyway, God wasn't in approval of Saul going to a witch or a medium.  However, there were witches, and mediums in that day, as well as now.  Saul was at one time good but then turned to the other side, so to speak.  The reason this whole discussion started, was because I asked if heaven wasn't even an option back in the OT, only torment and paradise (hell) than where were these people praying the dead to go.  It's the book of Macabees (I believe) where Catholics get this doctrine to pray for the dead.  But, they couldn't even go to heaven back then.  Also if unrepentant idol worshippers go to hell as Catholic church says, which I believe too, and you can't pray someone out of hell, than why did the people in the OT pray for those unrepentant idol worshippers then?

« Last Edit: Wed Jan 18, 2012 - 23:46:31 by Greea »

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #62 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 16:04:10 »
God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!

Of course He does. That was never in question. What was in question was your interpretation of what He said.

Pace et Bonum

Teresa

  Sorry but there is no biblical evidence for a place of purgatory. Its something that has again been made up by man for their own ends.

The Catholic Church does not say that purgatory is a place.  For that matter, neither is heaven or hell.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa


School em.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #63 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 20:12:35 »
Didn't I give the reference to the Witch of Endor?  I'm in a hurry, have an appointment.  I'll look it up and post again later.  Anyway, God wasn't in approval of Saul going to a witch or a medium.  However, there were witches, and mediums in that day, as well as now.  Saul was at one time good but then turned to the other side, so to speak.  The reason this whole discussion started, was because I asked if heaven wasn't even an option back in the OT, only torment and paradise (hell) than where were these people praying the dead to go.  It's the book of Macabees (I believe) where Catholics get this doctrine to pray for the dead.  But, they couldn't even go to heaven back then.  Also if unrepentant idol worshippers go to hell as Catholic church says, which I believe too, and you can't pray someone out of hell, than why did the people in the OT pray for those unrepentant idol worshippers then?

Also one more thing I thought of, we are made up of body, mind and spirit.  Right?  If we have Jesus in our spirit, then our spirits are okay, they must already be acceptable to God, or he wouldn't be there.  However, our bodies and minds still have some work.  When we die, we leave our bodies, and minds behind.  At that point (not until resurrection) do our bodies, and minds go to heaven, only our spirits.  So, our spirits don't need to be made righteous, they already are if we have Jesus in them.  That's what God sees when he sees us, he sees Jesus, not us.  When the resurrection of the saints (all believers) occurs, then our bodies and our minds will be like him.
We pray for all people good or bad because we do not know where they are.  It is foolish to assume that because someone is bad they are automatically in hell. Only God knows where they are.

The Catholic Church teaches that those who die in mortal sin will go to hell. But for it to be truly a mortal sin, it must be a grave sin and must have been done with full knowledge and intent.

We are able to determine the first (graveness) but the last two (full knowledge and intent) only God can determine.  We do not know whether a soul is unrepentant or not to the last.  Can't remember which Saint it was who said that the there is ample time for repentance between the bridge and the water for the one who is commiting suicide. That is why we must always pray for the dead.

Your comment about body, mind and spirit  I will attend to later as it requires a longer explanation and I have run out of time.

Peace and All Good,

Teresa

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #64 on: Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 20:41:43 »
But, if heaven wasn't an option in the OT, where were they praying the OT people into? 

Also you do know that not everything that people did in the bible was approved by God.

The scripture that talks about the witch of Endor is 1 Sam 28.  Teresa, do you have a bible?

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #65 on: Wed Jan 18, 2012 - 19:27:44 »
But, if heaven wasn't an option in the OT, where were they praying the OT people into? 

I am not sure why you think the people in the OT does not believe in heaven

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm
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Also you do know that not everything that people did in the bible was approved by God.

The scripture that talks about the witch of Endor is 1 Sam 28.  Teresa, do you have a bible?

Strange question : "Teresa do you have a Bible?" What has that got to do with anything.

As regards the witch of Endor, you are basing your belief on hell from what a witch (soothsayer/necromancer) said. That is why I put your explanation with big questionmark. Necromancy and soothsaying is forbidden in the Bible. Or do you have a different Bible?



Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #66 on: Wed Jan 18, 2012 - 19:58:47 »
Also one more thing I thought of, we are made up of body, mind and spirit.  Right?  If we have Jesus in our spirit, then our spirits are okay, they must already be acceptable to God, or he wouldn't be there.  However, our bodies and minds still have some work.  When we die, we leave our bodies, and minds behind.  At that point (not until resurrection) do our bodies, and minds go to heaven, only our spirits.  So, our spirits don't need to be made righteous, they already are if we have Jesus in them.  That's what God sees when he sees us, he sees Jesus, not us.  When the resurrection of the saints (all believers) occurs, then our bodies and our minds will be like him.
I'd like to give a quick reply to this while our server is getting fixed.

You are seeing the person as a disjoint of body, mind and spirit. The person is one is and cannot be compartmentalized. It is not just the body that sins but the person.

You say our spirits do not have to be made righteous. If so then that means that sin has no effect on the soul if it does not have to be made righteous.  

And the comment about God seeing Jesus instead of us is really like God is fooling Himself - making believe it is His Spotless Son rather than the grime covered sinner.

I am afraid that you need to take time and formulate this better because at the moment this is not a coherent presentation.

I am thinking that what underpins your thinking is a very nominalist philosphy though you may not be aware of it.


Peace and All Good.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #67 on: Wed Jan 18, 2012 - 22:54:08 »
I asked you if you had a bible, is a legitimate question.  It really doesn't do any good to debate bible with someone who doesn't own one, or read one. You have to read it on a regular basis to really understand it.  One thing I would like to point out to you, is anytime I quoted scripture, you would find a way to come back to me with some kind of other explanation or defense, but when I quoted the Catholic Catechism, you thanked me.  Kind of looks like you place more weight on what the Catholic Catechism says than what the bible says.

Of course I didn't mean our spirits don't need to be made new, of course they do, but that happens at conversion.  When we accept Christ, we get his spirit into ours.  No, God is not fooling himself when he sees Jesus when he looks at us, but this is how he chose to satisfy his justice.  Jesus was made sin for us. So, while Jesus was on the cross, God took all our sins, from Adam till beyond and placed them on Christ.  Why do you think Jesus cried out why have you forsaken me? A divine exchange was made.  Was God fooling himself then?  No, but sin cannot go unpunished, God's justice demands it. If God didn't make that divine exchange, we would be in big trouble. But, unlike people, God doesn't do things halfway.  He didn't take some our sins, and then leave us to pay for the rest in purgatory. Try looking at it this way, I know you believe in original sin.  Now, because of Adam sins, we are all born sinners.  Right?  Well, we inherited sin from Adam.  Now we've inherited righteousness from Jesus.  He took all, yes all our sins.  If I get time later or tomorrow, I'll post some of the scripture references.

As for the witch of Endor, I wasn't quoting her, The scriptures make it clear, not just because the Witch of Endor said it, that Samuel did come up and appear to Saul. Samuel himself said, 1 Sam 28:15...."Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"  Saul talked to him, and Samuel even prophesied some judgements to him that came from God. That was the point I was trying to make, that his spirit was in the ground, in hell, but on the paradise side.  Sometimes God does allow these things to occur at his will, and discretion.  After all, Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, but you're right other than these examples, that kind of thing is forbidden in scripture.  I have the same bible as you do (if you have one), minus the extra books Catholics have. Actually I have a Catholic bible too.  Besides these are all moot points now, since you've seen the Catholic Catechism backing up (in your eyes) what I say about hell and paradise.

I agree that I probably shouldn't have used the body, mind, and spirit argument to debate the existence of purgatory.  I should've just stuck to scriptures only.  I was giving you arguments of my own opinion, and that was a mistake.  However, like I said, when I get time I will post some of the scripture references.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 19, 2012 - 01:52:30 by Greea »

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #68 on: Wed Jan 18, 2012 - 22:59:11 »
Oh, and just to be clear, if we sin after salvation, we do need to repent, ask for forgiveness.  I just believe you can go to God, and ask for forgiveness, not a priest.  I don't believe anyone who is truly saved would ever deliberately sin, or keep on sinning.  These are different topics, however.

Also you didn't answer my question, of where were the people in the OT praying for to go?  Heaven wasn't an option back then.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #69 on: Thu Jan 19, 2012 - 20:21:55 »
I asked you if you had a bible, is a legitimate question.  It really doesn't do any good to debate bible with someone who doesn't own one, or read one.
Owning one and reading one are two different things. Even if I don't own one (I have 2 by the way not counting the Bible Diary) I can still quite intelligently discuss the matter for the simple fact that so many versions are in the internet.  I actually find the NAB Internet version excellent.

So please keep to the topic. Adding this kind of things to your post just detract from the topic.

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  You have to read it on a regular basis to really understand it.  One thing I would like to point out to you, is anytime I quoted scripture, you would find a way to come back to me with some kind of other explanation or defense, but when I quoted the Catholic Catechism, you thanked me.  Kind of looks like you place more weight on what the Catholic Catechism says than what the bible says.
I thanked you because to me it showed that you do some legwork when you debate (which I appreciate because you are one of the few I have encountered on this forum who actually put some thought into their post).

I do not put more weight on the CCC.  However, the CCC is an explanation of the theology of the Church supported by Scripture so it is a coherent presentation of what we believe after ALL of scripture has been taken into account.

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Of course I didn't mean our spirits don't need to be made new, of course they do, but that happens at conversion.  When we accept Christ, we get his spirit into ours.  No, God is not fooling himself when he sees Jesus when he looks at us, but this is how he chose to satisfy his justice. 
Not quite. That is not how he satisfies His justice. His satisfies His justice by transforming us into the image of Christ.  Through Christ we become new creations, unstained, sinless so He does not cover us with Christ, He transforms us into other Christ. 

If you have time, google deification or theosis.  This will shed more light on this aspect of our salvation.


 

     
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