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Author Topic: Purgatory  (Read 9960 times)

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Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2012, 02:14:54 AM »
Well, Jesus had to say today because Jesus only went to paradise for 3 days, then he was resurrected.  So, unless a thief can be purified in 3 days or less, they both went to paradise the same day.  Oh and also note, the thief wasn't even baptized.


 You are so right. I have also used this amazing story in the past to show that we do NOT have to be baptised to be saved. This man did nothing but ask for Jesus help and believe that He had a kingdom, and he was saved. Amazing!!!I LOVE this story. ::clappingoverhead::
The thief went through a Baptism by Desire.

We do have to be baptized (at least those who come to know Christ now) because that is His command and this is how the apostles have always done it.

Peace and All Good,

Teresa
By His Wounds, we are healed.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2012, 02:14:54 AM »

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2012, 12:10:18 PM »
Didn't I give the reference to the Witch of Endor?  I'm in a hurry, have an appointment.  I'll look it up and post again later.  Anyway, God wasn't in approval of Saul going to a witch or a medium.  However, there were witches, and mediums in that day, as well as now.  Saul was at one time good but then turned to the other side, so to speak.  The reason this whole discussion started, was because I asked if heaven wasn't even an option back in the OT, only torment and paradise (hell) than where were these people praying the dead to go.  It's the book of Macabees (I believe) where Catholics get this doctrine to pray for the dead.  But, they couldn't even go to heaven back then.  Also if unrepentant idol worshippers go to hell as Catholic church says, which I believe too, and you can't pray someone out of hell, than why did the people in the OT pray for those unrepentant idol worshippers then?

« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 10:46:31 PM by Greea »

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2012, 12:10:18 PM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2012, 03:04:10 PM »
God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!

Of course He does. That was never in question. What was in question was your interpretation of what He said.

Pace et Bonum

Teresa

  Sorry but there is no biblical evidence for a place of purgatory. Its something that has again been made up by man for their own ends.

The Catholic Church does not say that purgatory is a place.  For that matter, neither is heaven or hell.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa


School em.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2012, 07:12:35 PM »
Didn't I give the reference to the Witch of Endor?  I'm in a hurry, have an appointment.  I'll look it up and post again later.  Anyway, God wasn't in approval of Saul going to a witch or a medium.  However, there were witches, and mediums in that day, as well as now.  Saul was at one time good but then turned to the other side, so to speak.  The reason this whole discussion started, was because I asked if heaven wasn't even an option back in the OT, only torment and paradise (hell) than where were these people praying the dead to go.  It's the book of Macabees (I believe) where Catholics get this doctrine to pray for the dead.  But, they couldn't even go to heaven back then.  Also if unrepentant idol worshippers go to hell as Catholic church says, which I believe too, and you can't pray someone out of hell, than why did the people in the OT pray for those unrepentant idol worshippers then?

Also one more thing I thought of, we are made up of body, mind and spirit.  Right?  If we have Jesus in our spirit, then our spirits are okay, they must already be acceptable to God, or he wouldn't be there.  However, our bodies and minds still have some work.  When we die, we leave our bodies, and minds behind.  At that point (not until resurrection) do our bodies, and minds go to heaven, only our spirits.  So, our spirits don't need to be made righteous, they already are if we have Jesus in them.  That's what God sees when he sees us, he sees Jesus, not us.  When the resurrection of the saints (all believers) occurs, then our bodies and our minds will be like him.
We pray for all people good or bad because we do not know where they are.  It is foolish to assume that because someone is bad they are automatically in hell. Only God knows where they are.

The Catholic Church teaches that those who die in mortal sin will go to hell. But for it to be truly a mortal sin, it must be a grave sin and must have been done with full knowledge and intent.

We are able to determine the first (graveness) but the last two (full knowledge and intent) only God can determine.  We do not know whether a soul is unrepentant or not to the last.  Can't remember which Saint it was who said that the there is ample time for repentance between the bridge and the water for the one who is commiting suicide. That is why we must always pray for the dead.

Your comment about body, mind and spirit  I will attend to later as it requires a longer explanation and I have run out of time.

Peace and All Good,

Teresa
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2012, 07:41:43 PM »
But, if heaven wasn't an option in the OT, where were they praying the OT people into? 

Also you do know that not everything that people did in the bible was approved by God.

The scripture that talks about the witch of Endor is 1 Sam 28.  Teresa, do you have a bible?

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2012, 07:41:43 PM »



Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2012, 06:27:44 PM »
But, if heaven wasn't an option in the OT, where were they praying the OT people into? 

I am not sure why you think the people in the OT does not believe in heaven

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm
Quote
Also you do know that not everything that people did in the bible was approved by God.

The scripture that talks about the witch of Endor is 1 Sam 28.  Teresa, do you have a bible?

Strange question : "Teresa do you have a Bible?" What has that got to do with anything.

As regards the witch of Endor, you are basing your belief on hell from what a witch (soothsayer/necromancer) said. That is why I put your explanation with big questionmark. Necromancy and soothsaying is forbidden in the Bible. Or do you have a different Bible?


By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2012, 06:58:47 PM »
Also one more thing I thought of, we are made up of body, mind and spirit.  Right?  If we have Jesus in our spirit, then our spirits are okay, they must already be acceptable to God, or he wouldn't be there.  However, our bodies and minds still have some work.  When we die, we leave our bodies, and minds behind.  At that point (not until resurrection) do our bodies, and minds go to heaven, only our spirits.  So, our spirits don't need to be made righteous, they already are if we have Jesus in them.  That's what God sees when he sees us, he sees Jesus, not us.  When the resurrection of the saints (all believers) occurs, then our bodies and our minds will be like him.
I'd like to give a quick reply to this while our server is getting fixed.

You are seeing the person as a disjoint of body, mind and spirit. The person is one is and cannot be compartmentalized. It is not just the body that sins but the person.

You say our spirits do not have to be made righteous. If so then that means that sin has no effect on the soul if it does not have to be made righteous.  

And the comment about God seeing Jesus instead of us is really like God is fooling Himself - making believe it is His Spotless Son rather than the grime covered sinner.

I am afraid that you need to take time and formulate this better because at the moment this is not a coherent presentation.

I am thinking that what underpins your thinking is a very nominalist philosphy though you may not be aware of it.


Peace and All Good.
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2012, 09:54:08 PM »
I asked you if you had a bible, is a legitimate question.  It really doesn't do any good to debate bible with someone who doesn't own one, or read one. You have to read it on a regular basis to really understand it.  One thing I would like to point out to you, is anytime I quoted scripture, you would find a way to come back to me with some kind of other explanation or defense, but when I quoted the Catholic Catechism, you thanked me.  Kind of looks like you place more weight on what the Catholic Catechism says than what the bible says.

Of course I didn't mean our spirits don't need to be made new, of course they do, but that happens at conversion.  When we accept Christ, we get his spirit into ours.  No, God is not fooling himself when he sees Jesus when he looks at us, but this is how he chose to satisfy his justice.  Jesus was made sin for us. So, while Jesus was on the cross, God took all our sins, from Adam till beyond and placed them on Christ.  Why do you think Jesus cried out why have you forsaken me? A divine exchange was made.  Was God fooling himself then?  No, but sin cannot go unpunished, God's justice demands it. If God didn't make that divine exchange, we would be in big trouble. But, unlike people, God doesn't do things halfway.  He didn't take some our sins, and then leave us to pay for the rest in purgatory. Try looking at it this way, I know you believe in original sin.  Now, because of Adam sins, we are all born sinners.  Right?  Well, we inherited sin from Adam.  Now we've inherited righteousness from Jesus.  He took all, yes all our sins.  If I get time later or tomorrow, I'll post some of the scripture references.

As for the witch of Endor, I wasn't quoting her, The scriptures make it clear, not just because the Witch of Endor said it, that Samuel did come up and appear to Saul. Samuel himself said, 1 Sam 28:15...."Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"  Saul talked to him, and Samuel even prophesied some judgements to him that came from God. That was the point I was trying to make, that his spirit was in the ground, in hell, but on the paradise side.  Sometimes God does allow these things to occur at his will, and discretion.  After all, Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, but you're right other than these examples, that kind of thing is forbidden in scripture.  I have the same bible as you do (if you have one), minus the extra books Catholics have. Actually I have a Catholic bible too.  Besides these are all moot points now, since you've seen the Catholic Catechism backing up (in your eyes) what I say about hell and paradise.

I agree that I probably shouldn't have used the body, mind, and spirit argument to debate the existence of purgatory.  I should've just stuck to scriptures only.  I was giving you arguments of my own opinion, and that was a mistake.  However, like I said, when I get time I will post some of the scripture references.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 12:52:30 AM by Greea »

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2012, 09:59:11 PM »
Oh, and just to be clear, if we sin after salvation, we do need to repent, ask for forgiveness.  I just believe you can go to God, and ask for forgiveness, not a priest.  I don't believe anyone who is truly saved would ever deliberately sin, or keep on sinning.  These are different topics, however.

Also you didn't answer my question, of where were the people in the OT praying for to go?  Heaven wasn't an option back then.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2012, 07:21:55 PM »
I asked you if you had a bible, is a legitimate question.  It really doesn't do any good to debate bible with someone who doesn't own one, or read one.
Owning one and reading one are two different things. Even if I don't own one (I have 2 by the way not counting the Bible Diary) I can still quite intelligently discuss the matter for the simple fact that so many versions are in the internet.  I actually find the NAB Internet version excellent.

So please keep to the topic. Adding this kind of things to your post just detract from the topic.

Quote
  You have to read it on a regular basis to really understand it.  One thing I would like to point out to you, is anytime I quoted scripture, you would find a way to come back to me with some kind of other explanation or defense, but when I quoted the Catholic Catechism, you thanked me.  Kind of looks like you place more weight on what the Catholic Catechism says than what the bible says.
I thanked you because to me it showed that you do some legwork when you debate (which I appreciate because you are one of the few I have encountered on this forum who actually put some thought into their post).

I do not put more weight on the CCC.  However, the CCC is an explanation of the theology of the Church supported by Scripture so it is a coherent presentation of what we believe after ALL of scripture has been taken into account.

Quote
Of course I didn't mean our spirits don't need to be made new, of course they do, but that happens at conversion.  When we accept Christ, we get his spirit into ours.  No, God is not fooling himself when he sees Jesus when he looks at us, but this is how he chose to satisfy his justice. 
Not quite. That is not how he satisfies His justice. His satisfies His justice by transforming us into the image of Christ.  Through Christ we become new creations, unstained, sinless so He does not cover us with Christ, He transforms us into other Christ. 

If you have time, google deification or theosis.  This will shed more light on this aspect of our salvation.

By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2012, 07:24:19 PM »
Oh, and just to be clear, if we sin after salvation, we do need to repent, ask for forgiveness.  I just believe you can go to God, and ask for forgiveness, not a priest.  I don't believe anyone who is truly saved would ever deliberately sin, or keep on sinning.  These are different topics, however.

Also you didn't answer my question, of where were the people in the OT praying for to go?  Heaven wasn't an option back then.
How does that gel then with your contention that we can no longer sin if we are Christians?

I did answer the heaven/OT question. I even gave a link on the Jewish understanding.  Simply put, the Jews believed in heaven. But do read the link as it goes into it in more depth.

Peace and All Good.

Oops, disregard that first line. I got you confused with another member and another thread.
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2012, 07:51:15 PM »
Well, I didn't see the link.  Which one is it?  Anyway, here's some scriptures you can check on.  Ron 5:8, Is 53:5, Heb 7:27, Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 15:3, 1 Jn2:1-2, 2 Cor 5:6-8 Phil 1:23.

Also, why do you need someone to interpret the bible for you?  It's okay to use others for assistance, but ultimately we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. John 14:26.  It's our responsibility to search the scriptures, and make sure that what we are being taught lines up with scripture.  Why do you think there's so many cults?  People just listen to some charismatic leader who teaches some truth, and before you know it, they're listening to everything that the leader says.  I bet if I said to you, what would you do if St. Paul the apostle came to you, and started telling you things, would you listen to him without question?  Assuming that you knew for sure that it was him, I bet you would say sure.  Now be honest with yourself on this on.  Well, did you know there was a group of people in the book of Acts who examined the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true?  They were commended for that. 

There's not too much else I can say.  I'm not the Holy Spirit and he's the only one who can guide you into all truth.  I'm not saying you're not a Christian either.  You maybe, I don't know you, so I don't really know.  But, if you are, it's important to grow in the Lord daily, and that takes, prayer, bible study, and fellowship with like minded believers.  Not just a weekly obligation, but an every day commitment.  Again, don't know you, and don't know how you practice Christianity.  I urge you to pray, and ask God, with a sincere heart to reveal to you if you're wrong on the issue of purgatory.  Be willing to accept whatever he tells you, even if it collides with your hardcore beliefs.  If you are a Christian, and still believe in purgatory until you die, you'll have a nice surprise waiting for you.

God Bless!

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2012, 07:53:17 PM »
One more thing, doesn't matter if Jews believed in heaven or not because they don't believe in Jesus anyway.  Go ahead and post link again though, if you wish.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2012, 11:09:32 PM »
One more thing, doesn't matter if Jews believed in heaven or not because they don't believe in Jesus anyway.  Go ahead and post link again though, if you wish.
The link is on my reply #65.

This reply of yours though is quite strange. First you go on about the Jews not believing in heaven and now you say it does not matter what they believed. That makes me think that the whole point of that exercise was to confuse things.
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2012, 11:11:57 PM »
Well, I didn't see the link.  Which one is it?  Anyway, here's some scriptures you can check on.  Ron 5:8, Is 53:5, Heb 7:27, Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 15:3, 1 Jn2:1-2, 2 Cor 5:6-8 Phil 1:23.

Also, why do you need someone to interpret the bible for you?  It's okay to use others for assistance, but ultimately we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.
The guidance into all truth was promised to the Church that Christ founded on earth - not to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

If you believe that everyone is guided by the Holy Spirit then every cult that arose was the machination of the Holy Spirit and Jim Jones and David Koresh must have been guided by the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible the way they did.
By His Wounds, we are healed.