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Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #70 on: Thu Jan 19, 2012 - 20:24:19 »
Oh, and just to be clear, if we sin after salvation, we do need to repent, ask for forgiveness.  I just believe you can go to God, and ask for forgiveness, not a priest.  I don't believe anyone who is truly saved would ever deliberately sin, or keep on sinning.  These are different topics, however.

Also you didn't answer my question, of where were the people in the OT praying for to go?  Heaven wasn't an option back then.
How does that gel then with your contention that we can no longer sin if we are Christians?

I did answer the heaven/OT question. I even gave a link on the Jewish understanding.  Simply put, the Jews believed in heaven. But do read the link as it goes into it in more depth.

Peace and All Good.

Oops, disregard that first line. I got you confused with another member and another thread.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #70 on: Thu Jan 19, 2012 - 20:24:19 »

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #71 on: Thu Jan 19, 2012 - 20:51:15 »
Well, I didn't see the link.  Which one is it?  Anyway, here's some scriptures you can check on.  Ron 5:8, Is 53:5, Heb 7:27, Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 15:3, 1 Jn2:1-2, 2 Cor 5:6-8 Phil 1:23.

Also, why do you need someone to interpret the bible for you?  It's okay to use others for assistance, but ultimately we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. John 14:26.  It's our responsibility to search the scriptures, and make sure that what we are being taught lines up with scripture.  Why do you think there's so many cults?  People just listen to some charismatic leader who teaches some truth, and before you know it, they're listening to everything that the leader says.  I bet if I said to you, what would you do if St. Paul the apostle came to you, and started telling you things, would you listen to him without question?  Assuming that you knew for sure that it was him, I bet you would say sure.  Now be honest with yourself on this on.  Well, did you know there was a group of people in the book of Acts who examined the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true?  They were commended for that. 

There's not too much else I can say.  I'm not the Holy Spirit and he's the only one who can guide you into all truth.  I'm not saying you're not a Christian either.  You maybe, I don't know you, so I don't really know.  But, if you are, it's important to grow in the Lord daily, and that takes, prayer, bible study, and fellowship with like minded believers.  Not just a weekly obligation, but an every day commitment.  Again, don't know you, and don't know how you practice Christianity.  I urge you to pray, and ask God, with a sincere heart to reveal to you if you're wrong on the issue of purgatory.  Be willing to accept whatever he tells you, even if it collides with your hardcore beliefs.  If you are a Christian, and still believe in purgatory until you die, you'll have a nice surprise waiting for you.

God Bless!

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #71 on: Thu Jan 19, 2012 - 20:51:15 »

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #72 on: Thu Jan 19, 2012 - 20:53:17 »
One more thing, doesn't matter if Jews believed in heaven or not because they don't believe in Jesus anyway.  Go ahead and post link again though, if you wish.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #73 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 00:09:32 »
One more thing, doesn't matter if Jews believed in heaven or not because they don't believe in Jesus anyway.  Go ahead and post link again though, if you wish.
The link is on my reply #65.

This reply of yours though is quite strange. First you go on about the Jews not believing in heaven and now you say it does not matter what they believed. That makes me think that the whole point of that exercise was to confuse things.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #74 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 00:11:57 »
Well, I didn't see the link.  Which one is it?  Anyway, here's some scriptures you can check on.  Ron 5:8, Is 53:5, Heb 7:27, Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 15:3, 1 Jn2:1-2, 2 Cor 5:6-8 Phil 1:23.

Also, why do you need someone to interpret the bible for you?  It's okay to use others for assistance, but ultimately we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.
The guidance into all truth was promised to the Church that Christ founded on earth - not to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

If you believe that everyone is guided by the Holy Spirit then every cult that arose was the machination of the Holy Spirit and Jim Jones and David Koresh must have been guided by the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible the way they did.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #74 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 00:11:57 »



Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #75 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 00:15:55 »

There's not too much else I can say.  I'm not the Holy Spirit and he's the only one who can guide you into all truth.  I'm not saying you're not a Christian either.  You maybe, I don't know you, so I don't really know.  But, if you are, it's important to grow in the Lord daily, and that takes, prayer, bible study, and fellowship with like minded believers. 
To grow in the Lord is to follow all His commands. ALL His commands. And that means the Eucharist and the Sacraments.
Quote
  Not just a weekly obligation, but an every day commitment.
Indeed. That is why daily Eucharist is recommended.  And one more thing that needs re-iteration : the Lord did not write one single verse of the Bible. He established a Church. What is clear from Scripture is that Christ willed the Church into being.

Peace and All Good.
Teresa

Offline chosenone

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #76 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 00:44:04 »
Well, Jesus had to say today because Jesus only went to paradise for 3 days, then he was resurrected.  So, unless a thief can be purified in 3 days or less, they both went to paradise the same day.  Oh and also note, the thief wasn't even baptized.


 You are so right. I have also used this amazing story in the past to show that we do NOT have to be baptised to be saved. This man did nothing but ask for Jesus help and believe that He had a kingdom, and he was saved. Amazing!!!I LOVE this story. ::clappingoverhead::
The thief went through a Baptism by Desire.

We do have to be baptized (at least those who come to know Christ now) because that is His command and this is how the apostles have always done it.

Peace and All Good,

Teresa
 

Baptism by desire?, well thats a new one. Babies being baptised is not what God commands anyway, and neither  is confirmation.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #77 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 00:48:10 »
God the father God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'today' so I am assuming that He knew what he was talking about!!!

Of course He does. That was never in question. What was in question was your interpretation of what He said.

Pace et Bonum

Teresa

  Sorry but there is no biblical evidence for a place of purgatory. Its something that has again been made up by man for their own ends.

The Catholic Church does not say that purgatory is a place.  For that matter, neither is heaven or hell.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa

Well the Bible certainly says that heaven and hell are places. We do not need anything but the blood of Christ to cleanse us, it happens the moment that we accept him as our saviour and become his children. Jesus REALLY did do it all, we do not need further cleansing when we die, by believing this you are denying the finished work of Jesus.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #78 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 01:00:31 »
Baptism by desire?, well thats a new one. Babies being baptised is not what God commands anyway, and neither  is confirmation.

Perhaps you can show me where in the Bible it says that babies should not be baptised.

Also, do you understand what confirmation means and what the Catholic Church's teaching about it?

Peace and All Good

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #79 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 01:03:34 »
Well the Bible certainly says that heaven and hell are places. We do not need anything but the blood of Christ to cleanse us, it happens the moment that we accept him as our saviour and become his children. Jesus REALLY did do it all, we do not need further cleansing when we die, by believing this you are denying the finished work of Jesus.
The Bible was written by men who try to put these realities into man's word.  There some parts in the Bible that can be take literally but some that are not.

Let me put it this way.

Do you believe that God has no begining and no end and the Creator of everything that came into existence?

If you do, then that means that God created Heaven as well as His "abode".

Before He created heaven, does that mean that God was nowhere? Since God is Spirit, what need does the Spirit have of physical dwelling places?

Peace and All Good.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #80 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 01:15:52 »
When did I say Jews don't believe in heaven?  I said that heaven exists, it exists now, it existed then, but nobody could go there until Jesus became the sacrifice for our sins.  They righteous had to go to paradise.  Jews didn't, and still don't understand about Jesus coming to die, and pay for our sins.  In spite of the fact that all their ritual sacrifices, and observances were all a shadow of things to come, Christ. You are basing your belief in purgatory on what some Jews did in an OT book, that ironically enough Jews don't even accept as an inspired book themselves.  So what I was saying is,  If they were praying for the dead to go to heaven, then the prayer was in vain because the dead couldn't go to heaven until after Jesus died on the cross, which was approx 500 years later.  So, unless those Jews lived for another 500 years to keep their prayers going, they prayed in vain.  So basically, if these Jews were praying for the dead to go to heaven, then they were mistaken, and if they can be mistaken about that, then they certainly could be mistaken about praying for the dead, period!

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #81 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 03:53:24 »
When did I say Jews don't believe in heaven? 

When you said in post 64 " But, if heaven wasn't an option in the OT, where were they praying the OT people into?"

If according to you the OT peole did not believe that heaven was an option, then they must have not believed in it.
Quote
I said that heaven exists, it exists now, it existed then, but nobody could go there until Jesus became the sacrifice for our sins.  They righteous had to go to paradise.  Jews didn't, and still don't understand about Jesus coming to die, and pay for our sins. 

That has got nothing to do with your original argument.

Whether they realized or not that Jesus is the key to going to heaven, they knew heaven was an option.

Quote
  In spite of the fact that all their ritual sacrifices, and observances were all a shadow of things to come, Christ. You are basing your belief in purgatory on what some Jews did in an OT book, that ironically enough Jews don't even accept as an inspired book themselves.  So what I was saying is,  If they were praying for the dead to go to heaven, then the prayer was in vain because the dead couldn't go to heaven until after Jesus died on the cross, which was approx 500 years later.  So, unless those Jews lived for another 500 years to keep their prayers going, they prayed in vain.  So basically, if these Jews were praying for the dead to go to heaven, then they were mistaken, and if they can be mistaken about that, then they certainly could be mistaken about praying for the dead, period!


This again has no relevance to your original point.

I will do a cut and paste here as I am pressed for time. This hopefully will answer your questions.
A more detailed version is found in this link  http://www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

"Purgatory Not in Scripture"
 Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.
 
Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
 
Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.
 
Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.


Peace and All Good.

Teresa

Offline chosenone

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #82 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 05:39:55 »
If you believe in pergatory you must also believe that what Jesus did for us was not enough. As for me, I believe that Jesus did all that was needed for complete forgiveness and restoration, and that the day I die I will be with Him.
Amen.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #83 on: Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 13:57:34 »
The scripture in Matthew of, blasphemy can't be forgiven in this age or the age to come, refers to the millennial age, which has yet to come.  If there were a purgatory, then Jesus would've said in the ages (plural) to come.

The scripture in Cor which talks about our works being burnt up.  Read it again, it talks about our works being burnt, not us.  I actually believe that may be including some Catholics who do all these different works to hopefully gain entrance into heaven.  Also will apply to all believers who perform works for the wrong motives.

So, let me get this straight, you're going to take your theology from Jews, orthodox or otherwise, who rejected Christ, and really don't understand what the OT was teaching in regards to the Messiah?

Right before Jesus died, he stated it is finished.  What part of finished is it you don't understand?

You know what, I'm finished too.  You're so stubborn in your beliefs that it appears you don't even want to pray about it.  I used to be Catholic, so yes I prayed about all these issues.  So, if your not willing to ask God about these things, you're certainly not willing to ask me.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #84 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 00:27:07 »
If you believe in pergatory you must also believe that what Jesus did for us was not enough. As for me, I believe that Jesus did all that was needed for complete forgiveness and restoration, and that the day I die I will be with Him.
Amen.

Show why believing in purgatory means that what Jesus did for us was not enough.

One thing to remember before you reply, you need to make a clear presentation first of what you think we mean by purgatory and then show how that contradicts the suffience of Christ's redemption of humanity.

From where I am standing, the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice in no way contradicts purgatory.

I will give a detailed presentation once you have explained why you think they contradict each other.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #85 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 00:36:15 »
The scripture in Matthew of, blasphemy can't be forgiven in this age or the age to come, refers to the millennial age, which has yet to come.  If there were a purgatory, then Jesus would've said in the ages (plural) to come.
There is no such thing as millenial age.  There is this age and then the age to come.
Quote
The scripture in Cor which talks about our works being burnt up.  Read it again, it talks about our works being burnt, not us.  
Exactly. There is a realm where there must be fire and we are in it where our works are burned up but not us.

In hell, we burn, not just our works.
In heaven we do not burn.

Quote
I actually believe that may be including some Catholics who do all these different works to hopefully gain entrance into heaven.  Also will apply to all believers who perform works for the wrong motives.
Purgatory is not just for Catholics. Everyone (save for those who have been completely cleaned here on earth) will go through a purification.  Not very many die completely holy. And we have to be completely holy before we can enter heaven - the Bible says nothing unclean will enter heaven.
Quote
So, let me get this straight, you're going to take your theology from Jews, orthodox or otherwise, who rejected Christ, and really don't understand what the OT was teaching in regards to the Messiah?
No, but Christianity is a FULFILLMENT NOT AN ABOLISHMENT of Judaism.

Quote
Right before Jesus died, he stated it is finished.  What part of finished is it you don't understand?
What do you think he meant by that? What is finished? He didn't exactly say what was finished. What is the IT that was finished.

Quote
You know what, I'm finished too.  You're so stubborn in your beliefs that it appears you don't even want to pray about it. 
Perhaps you are the one who is stubborn and so refuse to pray to be enlightened.  You are angry because I am making sense and you know it.

Quote
  I used to be Catholic, so yes I prayed about all these issues.
You used to be Catholic and most likely left because you did not understanding her teaching.  Based on your posts, I am sure that you did not understand it at all.

If you are honest about your search for truth, then you will not be angry when you are stumped.

Quote
  So, if your not willing to ask God about these things, you're certainly not willing to ask me.
I ask God all the time. But not you. You are not God and to even put yourself in the same level is arrogance, blasphemy and idolatry.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa.

Offline Greea

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #86 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 00:48:11 »
I wasn't stumped, I'm just beginning to think that you're being deliberately obtuse.  As I said before, I'm done.

Oh, and one more thing, ya, we're in the millennial age because it's been less than a thousand years since Christ ascended, and we have all this peace in the world too.  Right!

Read John 19:30....Greek word used for finished, tetelesti (sp?) meaning paid in full.

Lord, I pray for Teresa right now, that you show her the truth about this subject, and any other subject she maybe in error on.  Also I pray that we all grow in you, and whenever any of us are mistaken in a doctrine, I pray you will show us the truth.  Your word said the truth will set us free, and I pray we all come to know all your truths in your word.  In Jesus name I pray.  Amen!

I've also taken myself off notification or new posts in this thread so I won't be tempted to read, and respond to your posts.  I'm all about avoiding temptations when I can.

By the way, I will admit there is a purgatory.  Yes, there is, it's in Whitinsville, Ma.  Don't believe me look it up.  I've been there a few times, so I'm good!
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 02:41:36 by Greea »

Offline Teresa

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #87 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 01:28:50 »
I wasn't stumped, I'm just beginning to think that you're being deliberately obtuse.  As I said before, I'm done.
So when you can't grasp someone else's explanation it is the other person who is obtuse?

Greea, it is you who are deliberately avoiding the truth.  I would not call it obtuseness on your part. I call it fear.

Quote
Oh, and one more thing, ya, we're in the millennial age because it's been less than a thousand years since Christ ascended, and we have all this peace in the world too.  Right!
There is no such thing as the millenial age in the Bible.

Jesus said this age and the age to come. He said nothing about the age to come being the millenial age.  And just in case you are not aware, 1011 years ago was also a millenium. So yes, if you check your calendar we are in already in the SECOND millennial age.
Quote
I've also taken myself off notification or new posts in this thread so I won't be tempted to read, and respond to your posts.  I'm all about avoiding temptations when I can.
It is good to avoid temptations.  But you are not avoiding temptatoin. You are avoiding enlightenment. You are afraid of the truth. You are a free agent so that is your choice.
Quote
By the way, I will admit there is a purgatory.  Yes, there is, it's in Whitinsville, Ma.  Don't believe me look it up.  I've been there a few times, so I'm good!

And that kind of flippant and sarcastic remark just confirms that you are losing ground which is the reason for your exiting.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 01:48:20 by Teresa »

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #88 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 03:38:44 »
I believe that purgatory, even if it isn't called that by most Christians, would actually be believed in some form by most Christians if they analyzed the things they already believed.  I also believe that there are verses in scripture that most Christians don't know what to do with, but that would make more sense if they believed in Purgatory.

First a definition of Purgatory, from the Catholic Catechism:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."608

CCC 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them."611

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439):DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563):DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39:PL 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274):DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5:PG 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

Part of the Catholic enhanced understanding comes from a passage in a book of the Bible that we hold inspired that many non-Catholic/non-Eastern Orthodox Bibles do not contain, which is 2nd Maccabees.

Anyway, I'd like to start the discussion like this: what is sanctification, and what is it's purpose?



To accept the teaching of purgatory, You have to disbelieve,
The Grace of God.
The Sacrifice, blood and death of Jesus.
The forgiving mercy and cleansing power of God, and Jesus's blood.

I notice you haven't given any scriptures, Because you know there is none.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #89 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 03:41:32 »
Quote
leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.

Here try this "ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." So our fruit that we now have is unto holiness. He is comparing our old lives with our new lives in Christ Jesus. Hebrews says "It is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgement." So then what, you die, you're resanctified, and then you're judged? We are appointed once to die and then the judgement.
I understand that a person has a choice to walk away from the grace that saved them in the first. But when I first got saved, was the blood of Jesus not good enough to fully save me? You see I believe that when Christ died and rose from the dead, the price was paid and all who come to him in faith are made clean. Changed into a new creature. You say its baptism, I say its simply faith and baptism comes as a sacrament commanded by Jesus for all who believe to publicly profess that belief. Whatever the case is it is not the actions of men, it was the gift of God. And the blood of Jesus Christ leaves behind no trace of sin.


catholiocs don't believe the Bible, They believe the pope's porkies
and the catholic con-men.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #90 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 03:47:49 »
Thank you for fully explaining purgatory to me.

However, if we are not fully purified in this life when we turn to Jesus Christ and his blood "cleanses us for all unrighteousness." then is God a liar?

No, not at all.  When we turn to Jesus Christ, He does clean us of all unrighteousness.  For example, and I don't want to discuss baptism, but this is Catholic belief, but we believe that Jesus does this cleansing at first through baptism.  Other people might believe that we are cleansed when we are "born again" by accepting Christ.  However we still sin again after these moments, and so impart upon ourselves stains of unrighteousness that must again be sanctified.  The entirety of Romans 6 is a good support for what I am saying, here is a portion.

Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God that, although you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient from the heart to the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted.
Rom. 6:18 Freed from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness.
Rom. 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your nature. For just as you presented the parts of your bodies as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness for lawless ness, so now present them as slaves to righteousness for sanctification.
Rom. 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
Rom. 6:21 But what profit did you get then from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let's think about this carefully. If Jesus came to save his people from their sins, are we saved in this life or in the life to come? Are sinners or are we saints if we have Jesus? John said "Little children I write unto you that ye sin not." If we are saved by his grace, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us for all unrighteousness, then what is there a need for Purgatory?

If you look at the definition of purgatory, you will see that it specifically states "all who die in God's friendship, but still imperfectly purified".  Those people who make is to purgatory are saved and will go to heaven.  They have not been perfectly sanctified in this life yet.  What work the blood of Jesus does to sanctify us, if we die in Christ Jesus, if it has not completed its work yet in this life, must be completed before we enter heaven, because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

God's grace is two-fold.  One, it is the power that gives us the ability to choose God in the first place, and two, once we make that choice, it is the power that cleanses us from sin through sanctification.  Both these kinds of grace save us, i.e. make us worthy of heaven, in different ways.  The first legally saves us, so that we will go to heaven when we die, the second makes us ready for heaven.  Purgatory is needed for those who have not become perfectly sanctified by the time they die, it is more time for the second kind of grace, sanctifying grace by the blood of Jesus, to work.


You have stated the, Purgatory, Sanctification and baptism cleanses us.
WHAT ABOUT THE REBIRTH AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS.

What you are saying is, You habe more faith in baptism, Self sanctification and purgatory Then you do in God's Grace, His orgiving mercy and the blood of Jesus.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #91 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 04:12:45 »
The people in the OT, like Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc went to paradise or Abraham's Bosom, not Heaven.  See Luke 16: 19-31.  When Jesus died, he went into hell or paradise to preach the gospel to them. 
So now you are saying hell is the same as paradise?

So therefore the gospel can be preached in hell and those in hell still have a chance of going to heaven?

 


The OT Saints went into Paradice, [Abraham'd bosom], A holding place for the OT Righteous untill Jesus made heaven open for us.

When Jesus went into the lower regions, He preached the gospel to the OT righteous, And He proclaimed the victory over the devil in hell
There are two different words and meaning for, "Preached", The one in  1 Pet 3:19.
Is "To proclaim the victory over the devil".
The one in 1: Pet 4: 6, Is,
"To Evangelise, To preach the gospel".

So those in hell, In Lk 16: 19-31, will never go to heaven,
Those in Paradice, [Abraham's bosom] went to heaven.

There is not third place, Otherwise the Bible would hvae mentioned it.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #92 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 04:21:05 »
Baptism by desire?, well thats a new one. Babies being baptised is not what God commands anyway, and neither  is confirmation.

Perhaps you can show me where in the Bible it says that babies should not be baptised.

Also, do you understand what confirmation means and what the Catholic Church's teaching about it?

Peace and All Good




[1]Salvation by Infant baptism isn't in the Bible.
God's way of salvation is,
First hear the gospel, Then believe it, Then repent and get born again, Then AND THEN ONLY can one be baptised in water.
How can an infant, Hear, understand, believe and repent???..WAKE UP.


[2]the catholic confirmation is done when they about 14 years old, They confirm something that never happend in the first place.
The catholic confirmation is [Suposidly] reciving the baptism in the Holy Ghost, Yet noen of them speak in tongues, Which id the Biblical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #93 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 10:32:53 »
We are made holy and blameless in his sight. If we sin after our salvation the Bible says to confess our sins and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So the purifying fire you speak of is not Purgatory. It is rather the Holy Ghost, who is an unquenchable fire.  ::flaming:: The Bible says our God is an all consuming fire. Who a Christian gets the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaks in other tongues, he is yielding his most wicked member unto God. His tongue is purified, his mind is purified, and his heart is purified. This is an action that takes places in the believer's lifetime.

this is why Purgatory is an unnecessary thing.

I too believe that sins are cleansed in this life, such belief is not incompatible with purgatory.  But what if it doesn't completely happen before the end of our life?  You quoted a verse that says we must confess our sins and his is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  What if we don't confess our sins?  Does he still forgive them immediately, and immediately cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  What if we sin and, say very soon afterward, we are killed in a sudden way, with unrepented sins.  When does He cleanse us then?



This is what I think the lake off fire will be. Where unbelievers will be cleansed by fire, so they suffer loss, but he himself is saved.



Thoswe who are in hell will be cast into the lake of fire forever, And there is no salvation for them

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #94 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 11:00:16 »
Oh boy!  I thought I explained this earlier.  Hell was one place divided in two sections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.  why do you think it says in the Apostles Creed that Jesus descended into hell?  Jesus went to the paradise side.  See also Luke 16: 19-31.
Greea, I hope you realize that the story of Lazarus and the richman is a parable.


The definition of a parable is, A discorse that shows a Spiritual truth.
So, Jesus was showing us that there is only two places to go when people die.
Heaven or hell.
You can check the whole Bible and you will only see either heaven or hell.
Purgatory is a man made doctrine from a man made religion with no scriptures to back it up..[Unless you twist the Bible]

Offline Scott1

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #95 on: Sun Mar 25, 2012 - 18:42:14 »
Quote from: Dr. Truth

The definition of a parable is, A discorse that shows a Spiritual truth.
So, Jesus was showing us that there is only two places to go when people die.
Heaven or hell.
You can check the whole Bible and you will only see either heaven or hell.
Purgatory is a man made doctrine from a man made religion with no scriptures to back it up..[Unless you twist the Bible]
Well, to be clear, I think the Catholics teach the same thing about there being two places - heaven and hell.

Purgatory (I don't agree with the Latins either on this) view Purgatory as "part" of heaven -- meaning that no one in Purgatory ever goes to hell.  It is simply an attempt to explain how something imperfect (a sinful albeit saved person) can be in heaven where everything must be perfect.

Hardly worth getting freaked out about - even if we don't agree.

Peace in Christ,
Scott

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #96 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 01:33:51 »
Quote from: Dr. Truth

The definition of a parable is, A discorse that shows a Spiritual truth.
So, Jesus was showing us that there is only two places to go when people die.
Heaven or hell.
You can check the whole Bible and you will only see either heaven or hell.
Purgatory is a man made doctrine from a man made religion with no scriptures to back it up..[Unless you twist the Bible]
Well, to be clear, I think the Catholics teach the same thing about there being two places - heaven and hell.

Purgatory (I don't agree with the Latins either on this) view Purgatory as "part" of heaven -- meaning that no one in Purgatory ever goes to hell.  It is simply an attempt to explain how something imperfect (a sinful albeit saved person) can be in heaven where everything must be perfect.

Hardly worth getting freaked out about - even if we don't agree.

Peace in Christ,
Scott



God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is no such teaching as purgatory in the Bible
One is either saved and goes to heaven, Or not saved and goes to hell...No purgatory.
Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy, The blood of Jesus and God's free justification, As catholics have to try and ern justification and acceptance with God Through penance, works, Self justification and purgatory.
Which isn't scriptural.
catholics are a false man made religion who preach a different gospel to the Bible, And Paul said catholics are accursed [Given yourself to destruction] Unreadeemable.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #97 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 09:55:58 »
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is where you go wrong. There is no automatic forgiveness when we sin after re-born as children of God. We have to repent and turn back to Him.

Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy,

Purgatory doesn't do away with God’s mercy. Purgatory demonstrates God's mercy because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn’t.

Offline Scott1

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #98 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 11:20:56 »
Quote from: Dr. T
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If you are a new creature and CLEANSED why do you continue to sin?

It is pretty apparent to me ( both in principle - and in reading posts filled with such hubris) that you don't seem to be TOTALLY cleansed.... how do you explain how God "missed a spot"?  But seriously, do you just believe one can stand before the Lord as sinful and God's mercy takes it away?
Quote
There is no such teaching as purgatory in the Bible
Certainly have a right to your opinion.
Quote
One is either saved and goes to heaven, Or not saved and goes to hell...No purgatory.
Guess you choose to ignore my explanation .... purgatory-heaven = kinda the same joint.
Quote
Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy, The blood of Jesus and God's free justification, As catholics have to try and ern justification and acceptance with God Through penance, works, Self justification and purgatory.
Again, I don't use the Latin definition, but one thing to me is quite clear -- purgatory is all about the divine mercy of God.  Your objection to it not be scriptural is certainly "valid", but to make this remark shows you don't have a clue about the teaching.

I guess your true objection might be about the TIMING of mercy.

The talks about Catholica "earning" justification is over my head frankly -- I don't give much thought to it, sorry.  Maybe someone else can explain the RC teaching.
Quote
Which isn't scriptural.
catholics are a false man made religion who preach a different gospel to the Bible, And Paul said catholics are accursed [Given yourself to destruction] Unreadeemable.
Sorry you feel this way.  I certainly don't feel "accursed" but instead know I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #99 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 12:23:34 »
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is where you go wrong. There is no automatic forgiveness when we sin after re-born as children of God. We have to repent and turn back to Him.

Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy,

Purgatory doesn't do away with God’s mercy. Purgatory demonstrates God's mercy because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn’t.



1) Of caurse we have to repent, If we confess our sins [To God], He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1: 9.
Then we are back in right standing with God.
Sin doesn't make us lose our salvation..
If you sin against your earthly father, It doesn't stop you being his son, It is the same with born again Christians and God, We wont stop being a child of God because we sin, However, It will hinder you relationship with God, As you will feel your not worthy to come into His pressence.

2) Where do you get you beliefs from?? certainly not the Bible,
Where do you find purgatory in the Bible??..Nowhere.
If your not Holy when you leave this earth, You never will be, There is no second chance after death.
The rebirth, The blood of Jesus, The divine nature of God and the sanctifying power of God we have through the rebirth, Makes us Holy, Not works, penance or purgatory.

Matt 25: 1--13 proves that those who aren't holy, wont make it, Jesus said,
"I know you not" Or the meaning is,
"I didn't recognise you as a follower of Me".
V30 [Of the same discorse] says, They will be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
V41 & 46 says they shall go into everlasting punishment and fire.
And the righteouse go into everlastin live, V46.

PLEASE NOTE, Heaven or hell... No third place,..No place of purgatory.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #100 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 12:44:52 »
Quote from: Dr. T
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If you are a new creature and CLEANSED why do you continue to sin?

It is pretty apparent to me ( both in principle - and in reading posts filled with such hubris) that you don't seem to be TOTALLY cleansed.... how do you explain how God "missed a spot"?  But seriously, do you just believe one can stand before the Lord as sinful and God's mercy takes it away?
Quote
There is no such teaching as purgatory in the Bible
Certainly have a right to your opinion.
Quote
One is either saved and goes to heaven, Or not saved and goes to hell...No purgatory.
Guess you choose to ignore my explanation .... purgatory-heaven = kinda the same joint.
Quote
Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy, The blood of Jesus and God's free justification, As catholics have to try and ern justification and acceptance with God Through penance, works, Self justification and purgatory.
Again, I don't use the Latin definition, but one thing to me is quite clear -- purgatory is all about the divine mercy of God.  Your objection to it not be scriptural is certainly "valid", but to make this remark shows you don't have a clue about the teaching.

I guess your true objection might be about the TIMING of mercy.

The talks about Catholica "earning" justification is over my head frankly -- I don't give much thought to it, sorry.  Maybe someone else can explain the RC teaching.
Quote
Which isn't scriptural.
catholics are a false man made religion who preach a different gospel to the Bible, And Paul said catholics are accursed [Given yourself to destruction] Unreadeemable.
Sorry you feel this way.  I certainly don't feel "accursed" but instead know I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott


1) a Born again Christian can and does sin, But when we repent and confess, We are forgiven, cleansed and put back in right standing with God.

Born again Christians are part divine and part human, And the Bible says, If we walk in the Spirit [Divine part of us], We won't fulfill the lusts [Sins] of the flesh.
So a  Christian who is living in the Spirit, Walking in the Spirit and developing God's divine nature, Can live free from sin.
But it takes consistancy, Tottal Commitment and dedecation to God.

2) Of cause one can stand before God as sinfull, And God's mercy will take sin away.
Didn't you ever read Christ died for the ungodly??, Or Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS.
Didn't you ever read, If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from all sins.
How can God forgive and cleanse if we don't come into His presence to ask for it??.

3)The lack of purgatory in the Bible, Isn't my opinion, It is a fact.
Purgatory isn't all about divine mercy.. It is about self cleansing, with the help of the living catholics, Which you won't find in the Bible.

4)You'll find out how saved you are when you die, Also you'll find out that there is not purgatory when you die.
The catholic teaching on salvation isn't scriptural and it leads people to hell.

Compare all the catholic teaching with the Bible..You won't find them in the Bible.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #101 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 13:22:03 »
1) Of caurse we have to repent, If we confess our sins [To God], He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1: 9.
Then we are back in right standing with God.
Sin doesn't make us lose our salvation.

Basically I agree with this. However it does not mean that we are right back where we began 100%.

Sin not only damages our relationship with God, which can be repaired with repentance and God’s forgiveness, but it damages us too. That damage to ourselves also needs to be repaired.

If you sin against your earthly father, It doesn't stop you being his son, It is the same with born again Christians and God, We wont stop being a child of God because we sin, However, It will hinder you relationship with God, As you will feel your not worthy to come into His pressence.

If you totally turn your back on your earthly father you can lose your inheritance.


2) Where do you get you beliefs from?? certainly not the Bible,
Where do you find purgatory in the Bible??..Nowhere.

Do you mean the word or the concept?

The word isn’t but the concept is.

If your not Holy when you leave this earth, You never will be, There is no second chance after death.
The rebirth, The blood of Jesus, The divine nature of God and the sanctifying power of God we have through the rebirth, Makes us Holy, Not works, penance or purgatory.

To enter heaven we need to be holy as God is holy. We are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27)

Moreover Hebrews says “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #102 on: Tue Mar 27, 2012 - 02:20:07 »
1) Of caurse we have to repent, If we confess our sins [To God], He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1: 9.
Then we are back in right standing with God.
Sin doesn't make us lose our salvation.

Basically I agree with this. However it does not mean that we are right back where we began 100%.

Sin not only damages our relationship with God, which can be repaired with repentance and God’s forgiveness, but it damages us too. That damage to ourselves also needs to be repaired.

If you sin against your earthly father, It doesn't stop you being his son, It is the same with born again Christians and God, We wont stop being a child of God because we sin, However, It will hinder you relationship with God, As you will feel your not worthy to come into His pressence.

If you totally turn your back on your earthly father you can lose your inheritance.


2) Where do you get you beliefs from?? certainly not the Bible,
Where do you find purgatory in the Bible??..Nowhere.

Do you mean the word or the concept?

The word isn’t but the concept is.

If your not Holy when you leave this earth, You never will be, There is no second chance after death.
The rebirth, The blood of Jesus, The divine nature of God and the sanctifying power of God we have through the rebirth, Makes us Holy, Not works, penance or purgatory.

To enter heaven we need to be holy as God is holy. We are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27)

Moreover Hebrews says “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #103 on: Tue Mar 27, 2012 - 03:14:32 »
Dr. Truth,

You seem to see things in very simplistic terms. Everything is in extremeness – no shades of grey in between black and white.

1) I take it you are joking when you said forgiven and cleansed sin doesn't put us back where we began????.... YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING, Or you are disagreeing with God.
Read 1 Jn 1: 9.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS".

If you are  forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, That means you are forgiven and righteous again.
Righteousness and justification are the same meaning, Now look at justified like this.
JUST--IF--I'D, Nevr done anything wrong.

And that is what God said and meant  in 1 Jn 1: 9.
In terms of our relationship with God we are made righteous again but that doesn’t put everything back to where it was before I sinned. If I attack someone and break their nose (for example) then repenting and being forgiven by God does not repair their broken nose.

As I said before sin does not just damage our relationship with God.

2)And how do you repare yourself??. Once we have repented of sin, We have to believe 1 Jn 1: 9, And faith in that scripture is all we need to be forgiven Cleansed and have peace and harmony with God again.

We co-operate with God’s grace and accept his disciplining.

During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #104 on: Tue Mar 27, 2012 - 13:09:05 »
Dr. Truth,

You seem to see things in very simplistic terms. Everything is in extremeness – no shades of grey in between black and white.

1) I take it you are joking when you said forgiven and cleansed sin doesn't put us back where we began????.... YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING, Or you are disagreeing with God.
Read 1 Jn 1: 9.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS".

If you are  forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, That means you are forgiven and righteous again.
Righteousness and justification are the same meaning, Now look at justified like this.
JUST--IF--I'D, Nevr done anything wrong.

And that is what God said and meant  in 1 Jn 1: 9.
In terms of our relationship with God we are made righteous again but that doesn’t put everything back to where it was before I sinned. If I attack someone and break their nose (for example) then repenting and being forgiven by God does not repair their broken nose.

As I said before sin does not just damage our relationship with God.

2)And how do you repare yourself??. Once we have repented of sin, We have to believe 1 Jn 1: 9, And faith in that scripture is all we need to be forgiven Cleansed and have peace and harmony with God again.

We co-operate with God’s grace and accept his disciplining.

During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.