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Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2012, 02:47:49 AM »
Thank you for fully explaining purgatory to me.

However, if we are not fully purified in this life when we turn to Jesus Christ and his blood "cleanses us for all unrighteousness." then is God a liar?

No, not at all.  When we turn to Jesus Christ, He does clean us of all unrighteousness.  For example, and I don't want to discuss baptism, but this is Catholic belief, but we believe that Jesus does this cleansing at first through baptism.  Other people might believe that we are cleansed when we are "born again" by accepting Christ.  However we still sin again after these moments, and so impart upon ourselves stains of unrighteousness that must again be sanctified.  The entirety of Romans 6 is a good support for what I am saying, here is a portion.

Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God that, although you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient from the heart to the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted.
Rom. 6:18 Freed from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness.
Rom. 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your nature. For just as you presented the parts of your bodies as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness for lawless ness, so now present them as slaves to righteousness for sanctification.
Rom. 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
Rom. 6:21 But what profit did you get then from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let's think about this carefully. If Jesus came to save his people from their sins, are we saved in this life or in the life to come? Are sinners or are we saints if we have Jesus? John said "Little children I write unto you that ye sin not." If we are saved by his grace, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us for all unrighteousness, then what is there a need for Purgatory?

If you look at the definition of purgatory, you will see that it specifically states "all who die in God's friendship, but still imperfectly purified".  Those people who make is to purgatory are saved and will go to heaven.  They have not been perfectly sanctified in this life yet.  What work the blood of Jesus does to sanctify us, if we die in Christ Jesus, if it has not completed its work yet in this life, must be completed before we enter heaven, because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

God's grace is two-fold.  One, it is the power that gives us the ability to choose God in the first place, and two, once we make that choice, it is the power that cleanses us from sin through sanctification.  Both these kinds of grace save us, i.e. make us worthy of heaven, in different ways.  The first legally saves us, so that we will go to heaven when we die, the second makes us ready for heaven.  Purgatory is needed for those who have not become perfectly sanctified by the time they die, it is more time for the second kind of grace, sanctifying grace by the blood of Jesus, to work.


You have stated the, Purgatory, Sanctification and baptism cleanses us.
WHAT ABOUT THE REBIRTH AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS.

What you are saying is, You habe more faith in baptism, Self sanctification and purgatory Then you do in God's Grace, His orgiving mercy and the blood of Jesus.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2012, 02:47:49 AM »

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #91 on: March 21, 2012, 03:12:45 AM »
The people in the OT, like Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc went to paradise or Abraham's Bosom, not Heaven.  See Luke 16: 19-31.  When Jesus died, he went into hell or paradise to preach the gospel to them. 
So now you are saying hell is the same as paradise?

So therefore the gospel can be preached in hell and those in hell still have a chance of going to heaven?

 


The OT Saints went into Paradice, [Abraham'd bosom], A holding place for the OT Righteous untill Jesus made heaven open for us.

When Jesus went into the lower regions, He preached the gospel to the OT righteous, And He proclaimed the victory over the devil in hell
There are two different words and meaning for, "Preached", The one in  1 Pet 3:19.
Is "To proclaim the victory over the devil".
The one in 1: Pet 4: 6, Is,
"To Evangelise, To preach the gospel".

So those in hell, In Lk 16: 19-31, will never go to heaven,
Those in Paradice, [Abraham's bosom] went to heaven.

There is not third place, Otherwise the Bible would hvae mentioned it.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #91 on: March 21, 2012, 03:12:45 AM »

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #92 on: March 21, 2012, 03:21:05 AM »
Baptism by desire?, well thats a new one. Babies being baptised is not what God commands anyway, and neither  is confirmation.

Perhaps you can show me where in the Bible it says that babies should not be baptised.

Also, do you understand what confirmation means and what the Catholic Church's teaching about it?

Peace and All Good




[1]Salvation by Infant baptism isn't in the Bible.
God's way of salvation is,
First hear the gospel, Then believe it, Then repent and get born again, Then AND THEN ONLY can one be baptised in water.
How can an infant, Hear, understand, believe and repent???..WAKE UP.


[2]the catholic confirmation is done when they about 14 years old, They confirm something that never happend in the first place.
The catholic confirmation is [Suposidly] reciving the baptism in the Holy Ghost, Yet noen of them speak in tongues, Which id the Biblical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2012, 09:32:53 AM »
We are made holy and blameless in his sight. If we sin after our salvation the Bible says to confess our sins and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So the purifying fire you speak of is not Purgatory. It is rather the Holy Ghost, who is an unquenchable fire.  ::flaming:: The Bible says our God is an all consuming fire. Who a Christian gets the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaks in other tongues, he is yielding his most wicked member unto God. His tongue is purified, his mind is purified, and his heart is purified. This is an action that takes places in the believer's lifetime.

this is why Purgatory is an unnecessary thing.

I too believe that sins are cleansed in this life, such belief is not incompatible with purgatory.  But what if it doesn't completely happen before the end of our life?  You quoted a verse that says we must confess our sins and his is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  What if we don't confess our sins?  Does he still forgive them immediately, and immediately cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  What if we sin and, say very soon afterward, we are killed in a sudden way, with unrepented sins.  When does He cleanse us then?



This is what I think the lake off fire will be. Where unbelievers will be cleansed by fire, so they suffer loss, but he himself is saved.



Thoswe who are in hell will be cast into the lake of fire forever, And there is no salvation for them

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2012, 10:00:16 AM »
Oh boy!  I thought I explained this earlier.  Hell was one place divided in two sections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.  why do you think it says in the Apostles Creed that Jesus descended into hell?  Jesus went to the paradise side.  See also Luke 16: 19-31.
Greea, I hope you realize that the story of Lazarus and the richman is a parable.


The definition of a parable is, A discorse that shows a Spiritual truth.
So, Jesus was showing us that there is only two places to go when people die.
Heaven or hell.
You can check the whole Bible and you will only see either heaven or hell.
Purgatory is a man made doctrine from a man made religion with no scriptures to back it up..[Unless you twist the Bible]

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2012, 10:00:16 AM »



Offline Scott1

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #95 on: March 25, 2012, 05:42:14 PM »
Quote from: Dr. Truth

The definition of a parable is, A discorse that shows a Spiritual truth.
So, Jesus was showing us that there is only two places to go when people die.
Heaven or hell.
You can check the whole Bible and you will only see either heaven or hell.
Purgatory is a man made doctrine from a man made religion with no scriptures to back it up..[Unless you twist the Bible]
Well, to be clear, I think the Catholics teach the same thing about there being two places - heaven and hell.

Purgatory (I don't agree with the Latins either on this) view Purgatory as "part" of heaven -- meaning that no one in Purgatory ever goes to hell.  It is simply an attempt to explain how something imperfect (a sinful albeit saved person) can be in heaven where everything must be perfect.

Hardly worth getting freaked out about - even if we don't agree.

Peace in Christ,
Scott
"Nothing is more common than for men to think that because they are familiar with words they understand the ideas they stand for."
- Cardinal John Henry Newman


“The Eastern Churches are the treasure of the Catholic Church”
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Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #96 on: March 26, 2012, 12:33:51 AM »
Quote from: Dr. Truth

The definition of a parable is, A discorse that shows a Spiritual truth.
So, Jesus was showing us that there is only two places to go when people die.
Heaven or hell.
You can check the whole Bible and you will only see either heaven or hell.
Purgatory is a man made doctrine from a man made religion with no scriptures to back it up..[Unless you twist the Bible]
Well, to be clear, I think the Catholics teach the same thing about there being two places - heaven and hell.

Purgatory (I don't agree with the Latins either on this) view Purgatory as "part" of heaven -- meaning that no one in Purgatory ever goes to hell.  It is simply an attempt to explain how something imperfect (a sinful albeit saved person) can be in heaven where everything must be perfect.

Hardly worth getting freaked out about - even if we don't agree.

Peace in Christ,
Scott



God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is no such teaching as purgatory in the Bible
One is either saved and goes to heaven, Or not saved and goes to hell...No purgatory.
Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy, The blood of Jesus and God's free justification, As catholics have to try and ern justification and acceptance with God Through penance, works, Self justification and purgatory.
Which isn't scriptural.
catholics are a false man made religion who preach a different gospel to the Bible, And Paul said catholics are accursed [Given yourself to destruction] Unreadeemable.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #97 on: March 26, 2012, 08:55:58 AM »
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is where you go wrong. There is no automatic forgiveness when we sin after re-born as children of God. We have to repent and turn back to Him.

Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy,

Purgatory doesn't do away with God’s mercy. Purgatory demonstrates God's mercy because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn’t.
What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)

Offline Scott1

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #98 on: March 26, 2012, 10:20:56 AM »
Quote from: Dr. T
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If you are a new creature and CLEANSED why do you continue to sin?

It is pretty apparent to me ( both in principle - and in reading posts filled with such hubris) that you don't seem to be TOTALLY cleansed.... how do you explain how God "missed a spot"?  But seriously, do you just believe one can stand before the Lord as sinful and God's mercy takes it away?
Quote
There is no such teaching as purgatory in the Bible
Certainly have a right to your opinion.
Quote
One is either saved and goes to heaven, Or not saved and goes to hell...No purgatory.
Guess you choose to ignore my explanation .... purgatory-heaven = kinda the same joint.
Quote
Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy, The blood of Jesus and God's free justification, As catholics have to try and ern justification and acceptance with God Through penance, works, Self justification and purgatory.
Again, I don't use the Latin definition, but one thing to me is quite clear -- purgatory is all about the divine mercy of God.  Your objection to it not be scriptural is certainly "valid", but to make this remark shows you don't have a clue about the teaching.

I guess your true objection might be about the TIMING of mercy.

The talks about Catholica "earning" justification is over my head frankly -- I don't give much thought to it, sorry.  Maybe someone else can explain the RC teaching.
Quote
Which isn't scriptural.
catholics are a false man made religion who preach a different gospel to the Bible, And Paul said catholics are accursed [Given yourself to destruction] Unreadeemable.
Sorry you feel this way.  I certainly don't feel "accursed" but instead know I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott
"Nothing is more common than for men to think that because they are familiar with words they understand the ideas they stand for."
- Cardinal John Henry Newman


“The Eastern Churches are the treasure of the Catholic Church”
– Pope John XXIII

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #99 on: March 26, 2012, 11:23:34 AM »
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is where you go wrong. There is no automatic forgiveness when we sin after re-born as children of God. We have to repent and turn back to Him.

Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy,

Purgatory doesn't do away with God’s mercy. Purgatory demonstrates God's mercy because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn’t.



1) Of caurse we have to repent, If we confess our sins [To God], He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1: 9.
Then we are back in right standing with God.
Sin doesn't make us lose our salvation..
If you sin against your earthly father, It doesn't stop you being his son, It is the same with born again Christians and God, We wont stop being a child of God because we sin, However, It will hinder you relationship with God, As you will feel your not worthy to come into His pressence.

2) Where do you get you beliefs from?? certainly not the Bible,
Where do you find purgatory in the Bible??..Nowhere.
If your not Holy when you leave this earth, You never will be, There is no second chance after death.
The rebirth, The blood of Jesus, The divine nature of God and the sanctifying power of God we have through the rebirth, Makes us Holy, Not works, penance or purgatory.

Matt 25: 1--13 proves that those who aren't holy, wont make it, Jesus said,
"I know you not" Or the meaning is,
"I didn't recognise you as a follower of Me".
V30 [Of the same discorse] says, They will be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
V41 & 46 says they shall go into everlasting punishment and fire.
And the righteouse go into everlastin live, V46.

PLEASE NOTE, Heaven or hell... No third place,..No place of purgatory.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #100 on: March 26, 2012, 11:44:52 AM »
Quote from: Dr. T
God, Through the rebirth never mad anyone imperfect, Born again Christians are a brand new creation in Christ, We are humanly divine and divinly human, We are partalers of God's divine nature.
God no longer sees us as sinners, He sees us through the blood of Jesus, CLEANSED, Righteous, forgiven and saved.
And if we sin, God is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If you are a new creature and CLEANSED why do you continue to sin?

It is pretty apparent to me ( both in principle - and in reading posts filled with such hubris) that you don't seem to be TOTALLY cleansed.... how do you explain how God "missed a spot"?  But seriously, do you just believe one can stand before the Lord as sinful and God's mercy takes it away?
Quote
There is no such teaching as purgatory in the Bible
Certainly have a right to your opinion.
Quote
One is either saved and goes to heaven, Or not saved and goes to hell...No purgatory.
Guess you choose to ignore my explanation .... purgatory-heaven = kinda the same joint.
Quote
Purgarory does away with God's grace, Forgiving mercy, The blood of Jesus and God's free justification, As catholics have to try and ern justification and acceptance with God Through penance, works, Self justification and purgatory.
Again, I don't use the Latin definition, but one thing to me is quite clear -- purgatory is all about the divine mercy of God.  Your objection to it not be scriptural is certainly "valid", but to make this remark shows you don't have a clue about the teaching.

I guess your true objection might be about the TIMING of mercy.

The talks about Catholica "earning" justification is over my head frankly -- I don't give much thought to it, sorry.  Maybe someone else can explain the RC teaching.
Quote
Which isn't scriptural.
catholics are a false man made religion who preach a different gospel to the Bible, And Paul said catholics are accursed [Given yourself to destruction] Unreadeemable.
Sorry you feel this way.  I certainly don't feel "accursed" but instead know I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott


1) a Born again Christian can and does sin, But when we repent and confess, We are forgiven, cleansed and put back in right standing with God.

Born again Christians are part divine and part human, And the Bible says, If we walk in the Spirit [Divine part of us], We won't fulfill the lusts [Sins] of the flesh.
So a  Christian who is living in the Spirit, Walking in the Spirit and developing God's divine nature, Can live free from sin.
But it takes consistancy, Tottal Commitment and dedecation to God.

2) Of cause one can stand before God as sinfull, And God's mercy will take sin away.
Didn't you ever read Christ died for the ungodly??, Or Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS.
Didn't you ever read, If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from all sins.
How can God forgive and cleanse if we don't come into His presence to ask for it??.

3)The lack of purgatory in the Bible, Isn't my opinion, It is a fact.
Purgatory isn't all about divine mercy.. It is about self cleansing, with the help of the living catholics, Which you won't find in the Bible.

4)You'll find out how saved you are when you die, Also you'll find out that there is not purgatory when you die.
The catholic teaching on salvation isn't scriptural and it leads people to hell.

Compare all the catholic teaching with the Bible..You won't find them in the Bible.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2012, 12:22:03 PM »
1) Of caurse we have to repent, If we confess our sins [To God], He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1: 9.
Then we are back in right standing with God.
Sin doesn't make us lose our salvation.

Basically I agree with this. However it does not mean that we are right back where we began 100%.

Sin not only damages our relationship with God, which can be repaired with repentance and God’s forgiveness, but it damages us too. That damage to ourselves also needs to be repaired.

If you sin against your earthly father, It doesn't stop you being his son, It is the same with born again Christians and God, We wont stop being a child of God because we sin, However, It will hinder you relationship with God, As you will feel your not worthy to come into His pressence.

If you totally turn your back on your earthly father you can lose your inheritance.


2) Where do you get you beliefs from?? certainly not the Bible,
Where do you find purgatory in the Bible??..Nowhere.

Do you mean the word or the concept?

The word isn’t but the concept is.

If your not Holy when you leave this earth, You never will be, There is no second chance after death.
The rebirth, The blood of Jesus, The divine nature of God and the sanctifying power of God we have through the rebirth, Makes us Holy, Not works, penance or purgatory.

To enter heaven we need to be holy as God is holy. We are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27)

Moreover Hebrews says “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2012, 01:20:07 AM »
1) Of caurse we have to repent, If we confess our sins [To God], He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1: 9.
Then we are back in right standing with God.
Sin doesn't make us lose our salvation.

Basically I agree with this. However it does not mean that we are right back where we began 100%.

Sin not only damages our relationship with God, which can be repaired with repentance and God’s forgiveness, but it damages us too. That damage to ourselves also needs to be repaired.

If you sin against your earthly father, It doesn't stop you being his son, It is the same with born again Christians and God, We wont stop being a child of God because we sin, However, It will hinder you relationship with God, As you will feel your not worthy to come into His pressence.

If you totally turn your back on your earthly father you can lose your inheritance.


2) Where do you get you beliefs from?? certainly not the Bible,
Where do you find purgatory in the Bible??..Nowhere.

Do you mean the word or the concept?

The word isn’t but the concept is.

If your not Holy when you leave this earth, You never will be, There is no second chance after death.
The rebirth, The blood of Jesus, The divine nature of God and the sanctifying power of God we have through the rebirth, Makes us Holy, Not works, penance or purgatory.

To enter heaven we need to be holy as God is holy. We are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27)

Moreover Hebrews says “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2012, 02:14:32 AM »
Dr. Truth,

You seem to see things in very simplistic terms. Everything is in extremeness – no shades of grey in between black and white.

1) I take it you are joking when you said forgiven and cleansed sin doesn't put us back where we began????.... YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING, Or you are disagreeing with God.
Read 1 Jn 1: 9.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS".

If you are  forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, That means you are forgiven and righteous again.
Righteousness and justification are the same meaning, Now look at justified like this.
JUST--IF--I'D, Nevr done anything wrong.

And that is what God said and meant  in 1 Jn 1: 9.
In terms of our relationship with God we are made righteous again but that doesn’t put everything back to where it was before I sinned. If I attack someone and break their nose (for example) then repenting and being forgiven by God does not repair their broken nose.

As I said before sin does not just damage our relationship with God.

2)And how do you repare yourself??. Once we have repented of sin, We have to believe 1 Jn 1: 9, And faith in that scripture is all we need to be forgiven Cleansed and have peace and harmony with God again.

We co-operate with God’s grace and accept his disciplining.

During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2012, 12:09:05 PM »
Dr. Truth,

You seem to see things in very simplistic terms. Everything is in extremeness – no shades of grey in between black and white.

1) I take it you are joking when you said forgiven and cleansed sin doesn't put us back where we began????.... YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING, Or you are disagreeing with God.
Read 1 Jn 1: 9.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS".

If you are  forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, That means you are forgiven and righteous again.
Righteousness and justification are the same meaning, Now look at justified like this.
JUST--IF--I'D, Nevr done anything wrong.

And that is what God said and meant  in 1 Jn 1: 9.
In terms of our relationship with God we are made righteous again but that doesn’t put everything back to where it was before I sinned. If I attack someone and break their nose (for example) then repenting and being forgiven by God does not repair their broken nose.

As I said before sin does not just damage our relationship with God.

2)And how do you repare yourself??. Once we have repented of sin, We have to believe 1 Jn 1: 9, And faith in that scripture is all we need to be forgiven Cleansed and have peace and harmony with God again.

We co-operate with God’s grace and accept his disciplining.

During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.