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Author Topic: Purgatory  (Read 10013 times)

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Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #150 on: April 07, 2012, 06:46:40 AM »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #150 on: April 07, 2012, 06:46:40 AM »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #151 on: April 07, 2012, 09:08:53 AM »
1)Ecclesiastes 9: 5. &v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.

There are two good reasonsn why the above is not relevant.

1. The dead then were in Hades not heaven. Heaven was closed until the death and resurrection of Jesus opened it.

2.  It cannot betaken literally. You would know that if you stopped ignoring the bit you left out of verse 5..
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost."

 Do you really believe that there is no more reward for those that died before Christ, for Abraham, for David etc?. That contradicts Heb 11:39-40


2)Stop twisting Phil 1: 24. Paul said to stay it is more needful for you.
If he went to heaven, He couldn't help them.
Preaching the gospel to the Philippian Christians wouldn't be any use to them, They were already saved, So how could Paul preaching the gospel to them, be needful???
Can't you see how you are twisting the scripturs??.

Ah, so you are taking Paul's letters as very specific to the people he wrote to and with no general application at all?

Can I ignore his letters to the Corinthians, the Ephesians, the Romans etc. because I am not a Corinthian, an Ephesian or a Roman?
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 1Tim 3:16.
And you are in error

Moreover Paul says in the following verses:
“Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #151 on: April 07, 2012, 09:08:53 AM »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #152 on: April 07, 2012, 09:09:57 AM »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

Thank you.

If I have the time and internet connection I shall continue before then.

larry2

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #153 on: April 07, 2012, 09:20:15 AM »

1) Ecclesiastes 9: 5. & v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.



Since the bible does not contradict itself, at least as far as God gives it, there must be opposing views of understanding. Abraham was in the grave, Abraham's bosom, or paradise but not dead, and Lazarus was there with him being comforted. The rich man in hell communicated with Abraham, and he was aware of torment. Now that paradise is in heaven, do you think the game has changed? They can no longer hear, or there is no awareness among the saints? Who do those prophesied as under the altar call to?
 ::shrug::

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #154 on: April 07, 2012, 11:24:31 AM »
1)Ecclesiastes 9: 5. &v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.

There are two good reasonsn why the above is not relevant.

1. The dead then were in Hades not heaven. Heaven was closed until the death and resurrection of Jesus opened it.

2.  It cannot betaken literally. You would know that if you stopped ignoring the bit you left out of verse 5..
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost."

 Do you really believe that there is no more reward for those that died before Christ, for Abraham, for David etc?. That contradicts Heb 11:39-40


2)Stop twisting Phil 1: 24. Paul said to stay it is more needful for you.
If he went to heaven, He couldn't help them.
Preaching the gospel to the Philippian Christians wouldn't be any use to them, They were already saved, So how could Paul preaching the gospel to them, be needful???
Can't you see how you are twisting the scripturs??.

Ah, so you are taking Paul's letters as very specific to the people he wrote to and with no general application at all?

Can I ignore his letters to the Corinthians, the Ephesians, the Romans etc. because I am not a Corinthian, an Ephesian or a Roman?
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 1Tim 3:16.
And you are in error

Moreover Paul says in the following verses:
“Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #154 on: April 07, 2012, 11:24:31 AM »



Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #155 on: April 07, 2012, 11:27:31 AM »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

Thank you.

If I have the time and internet connection I shall continue before then.


Hey, Winsome, If I don't hear from you again, Have a good Easter.

PS, Ask you priest about baptism being totally immersed.
And tell me what he says,I will be interested to see what he says about it.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #156 on: April 07, 2012, 11:36:47 AM »

1) Ecclesiastes 9: 5. & v10. Says the dead don't know anything, And don't do any work.
If the dead don't know anything, How can they know when you are praying to them??
How can they know  what to pray for you  and how to pray for you.



Since the bible does not contradict itself, at least as far as God gives it, there must be opposing views of understanding. Abraham was in the grave, Abraham's bosom, or paradise but not dead, and Lazarus was there with him being comforted. The rich man in hell communicated with Abraham, and he was aware of torment. Now that paradise is in heaven, do you think the game has changed? They can no longer hear, or there is no awareness among the saints? Who do those prophesied as under the altar call to?
 ::shrug::


The people in heaven or hell will know what is going on wherever they are.
Lk 16: 19--31, proves this.
The people in heaven will be able to comunicate with each other, As will those in hell.

Eccl 9: 5, means they have no knowledge of what is hapening on the earth.

If you went abroad on holiday and had no comunicating back home, You wouldn't know what is happening at home, But you would know what is happening where you are.

Thats what Eccl 9: 5 means.. THERE IS NO CONTRADICTIONS.
If you know the Hebrew and Greek.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #157 on: April 07, 2012, 12:19:00 PM »
1)Who said they were in Hades??, The Bible just says they were dead.
But wether they were in hades, Paradise or heaven, The principle is the  same.
PLEASE NOTE, It  says the dead know nothing.
It doesn't say they don't know anything until they get to heaven..DOES IT??.

The situation between Sheol/Hades and heaven is very different.

We have to remember in OT times the gates of heaven were closed to mankind. The Jews believed that those who died went to Sheol (Hades) which is not the same as Hell. Ideas were a bit vague, some thought they slept, some people think it was a place of natural happiness. But when Jesus died he went down to Sheol and released those that were there to join him in heaven.
“He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #158 on: April 07, 2012, 12:26:24 PM »
Dr. Truth,

I have been pondering about answering this in detail as I am going away for a week from tomorrow morning.

I will be taking my old laptop with me but I will be restricted as to time and connection. I’m not even 100% sure I will have a connection.

Do you want to wait until I get back to continue this, or make a start now and hope that I can continue during the week?

In the meantime don’t hold back from answering my previous posts.  ::smile::



I will be waiting for you. Have a good week

Thank you.

If I have the time and internet connection I shall continue before then.


Hey, Winsome, If I don't hear from you again, Have a good Easter.

PS, Ask you priest about baptism being totally immersed.
And tell me what he says,I will be interested to see what he says about it.

Don't need to ask my priest.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.

And as I showed from the quotation from the Didache, this was the procedure adopted by the Church from apstolic times.

Right, that's my last post for now.

I'm off to the Easter Vigil shortly.

I hope I can continue on say Monday and show you praying to Saints in heaven is based on the Bible - time and connection permitting.


Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #159 on: April 08, 2012, 12:03:10 AM »
1)Who said they were in Hades??, The Bible just says they were dead.
But wether they were in hades, Paradise or heaven, The principle is the  same.
PLEASE NOTE, It  says the dead know nothing.
It doesn't say they don't know anything until they get to heaven..DOES IT??.

The situation between Sheol/Hades and heaven is very different.

We have to remember in OT times the gates of heaven were closed to mankind. The Jews believed that those who died went to Sheol (Hades) which is not the same as Hell. Ideas were a bit vague, some thought they slept, some people think it was a place of natural happiness. But when Jesus died he went down to Sheol and released those that were there to join him in heaven.
“He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison.

Offline 3rd Heaven

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #160 on: April 08, 2012, 02:11:26 AM »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.

Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #161 on: April 08, 2012, 12:49:11 PM »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.


The dead know what is going on around them, But they don't know waht is hapening on the earth.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #162 on: April 08, 2012, 01:01:50 PM »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.


The dead know what is going on around them, But they don't know waht is hapening on the earth.

Those who are in the Bosom of God know whats going on earth.

Revelation 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?



Offline Dr. Truth

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #163 on: April 09, 2012, 01:41:40 AM »
How do you explain the Transfiguration? The prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. If the dead know nothing, why is Jesus speaking to them?

Also, how do you explain Saul going to a medium to summons Samuel? Did not Saul a man of god know the dead know nothing? Was he stupid? How could he have a medium summons a dead person? If you say this was a trick and not really Samuel, you still need to explain why Saul even thought it was possible if the dead know nothing.

Samuel tells Saul what will happen, it was either real or a trick.
If real, then that pretty much dampens the idea the dead know nothing and perhaps you are misinterpreting Eccl  9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward

I do not believe the dead does not have any more rewards. That verse speaks specifically of the living and the dead, if taken the way you describe it as such that would mean once you doe you loose your rewards. I doubt that's what it means. It simply refers to no "MORE" rewards then they already received when living. Their time for earning rewards is perhaps completed. As for knowing nothing, what proceeded was for the living know that they will die, that's really all we know when alive. We may not know what is going on here with the living unless petitioned or granted by the Will of God. Either way it is unreasonable to draw such a bold conclusion from one verse in light of the many other verses that suggest otherwise.

I would caution you to reserve final judgment on this as we do not have all the details.

And Happy Easter to all!

If it was a trick we still need to understand how a great man of God was not aware the dead know nothing.


The dead know what is going on around them, But they don't know waht is hapening on the earth.

Those who are in the Bosom of God know whats going on earth.

Revelation 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?





1)The saints said "How long ",  in Rev 6:  10, was because God had told them,9--11,

2)Rev 5..Onwards has nothing to do with the Chuch age, The Church has been raptured to heaven by then.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory
« Reply #164 on: April 09, 2012, 08:04:18 AM »
"Praying to the dead"

Point 1.
Catholics don’t pray to dead people. We pray to the Saints alive in heaven.

God is the God of the living not the dead (Mt 22:32)

Point 2.
When Catholics use the phrase “praying to a Saint