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Offline Happy22

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Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« on: Sun Jan 20, 2013 - 22:25:17 »

Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?

Look at the instructions the Lord Jesus gave to Paul for the Christian Church:

Colossians 2:16 and 17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a
New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In Colossians, the “you” is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such holiday observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and celebrate, sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, hear the Word—and eat? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the feasts of Judaism, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting “circumcision” as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation from Jesus Christ) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the feasts, what about animal sacrifices to worship God? No, Christians are not required to keep these laws.

The epistle to the Hebrews is one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians, many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law were no longer applicable. For example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…”

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Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« on: Sun Jan 20, 2013 - 22:25:17 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jan 20, 2013 - 22:44:15 »
I agree 100%.

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jan 20, 2013 - 22:44:15 »

Offline DiscipleDave

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 21:14:45 »

Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?

Look at the instructions the Lord Jesus gave to Paul for the Christian Church:

Colossians 2:16 and 17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a
New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In Colossians, the “you” is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such holiday observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and celebrate, sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, hear the Word—and eat? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the feasts of Judaism, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting “circumcision” as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation from Jesus Christ) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the feasts, what about animal sacrifices to worship God? No, Christians are not required to keep these laws.

The epistle to the Hebrews is one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians, many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law were no longer applicable. For example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…”


If you want to, do so
If you don't want to, don't

It is not a sin if you do so, and it is not a sin if you don't. Jesus nor any Apostle ever instructed Christians to continue to keep the feasts of the old Testament. As for should we keep the laws, know you not that it is written we are no longer under the law? If we are no longer under the law, how say some we should live by the old testament laws?


^i^

Offline Happy22

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #3 on: Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 08:51:30 »

Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?

Look at the instructions the Lord Jesus gave to Paul for the Christian Church:

Colossians 2:16 and 17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a
New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In Colossians, the “you” is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such holiday observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and celebrate, sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, hear the Word—and eat? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the feasts of Judaism, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting “circumcision” as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation from Jesus Christ) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the feasts, what about animal sacrifices to worship God? No, Christians are not required to keep these laws.

The epistle to the Hebrews is one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians, many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law were no longer applicable. For example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…”


If you want to, do so
If you don't want to, don't

It is not a sin if you do so, and it is not a sin if you don't. Jesus nor any Apostle ever instructed Christians to continue to keep the feasts of the old Testament. As for should we keep the laws, know you not that it is written we are no longer under the law? If we are no longer under the law, how say some we should live by the old testament laws?


^i^

It would be a sin to keep the Feasts according to the Bible, which calls for an animal sacrifice. We can't use Jesus again, as He has already been sacrificed.

The Rabbis have invented a Sedar Ritual which is used today and is wrong.

Offline Advena

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 17, 2013 - 22:50:54 »
I don't know about keeping the feasts, but I think churches should teach more extensively about them and have ways for their people to experience participation in them. We don't understand the depth of Scripture because we don't do enough study of the background.

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 17, 2013 - 22:50:54 »



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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #5 on: Fri May 17, 2013 - 22:53:44 »
In re: the OP

The use of the word, "should" results in a "no" answer.

Offline notreligus

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #6 on: Tue May 21, 2013 - 07:11:02 »

Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?

Look at the instructions the Lord Jesus gave to Paul for the Christian Church:

Colossians 2:16 and 17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a
New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In Colossians, the “you” is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such holiday observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and celebrate, sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, hear the Word—and eat? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the feasts of Judaism, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting “circumcision” as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation from Jesus Christ) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the feasts, what about animal sacrifices to worship God? No, Christians are not required to keep these laws.

The epistle to the Hebrews is one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians, many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law were no longer applicable. For example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…”


If you want to, do so
If you don't want to, don't

It is not a sin if you do so, and it is not a sin if you don't. Jesus nor any Apostle ever instructed Christians to continue to keep the feasts of the old Testament. As for should we keep the laws, know you not that it is written we are no longer under the law? If we are no longer under the law, how say some we should live by the old testament laws?


^i^

It would be a sin to keep the Feasts according to the Bible, which calls for an animal sacrifice. We can't use Jesus again, as He has already been sacrificed.

The Rabbis have invented a Sedar Ritual which is used today and is wrong.

This is precisely why I don't believe that the Law will be restored along with animal sacrifices in the future.  It is said that the sacrifices will be memorials, but what would be the need for a memorial when Christ himself is present? 

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #7 on: Tue May 21, 2013 - 07:58:38 »
In re: the OP

The use of the word, "should" results in a "no" answer.
That depends on who exactly the "we" is referring to.

HRoberson

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #8 on: Tue May 21, 2013 - 15:17:26 »
In re: the OP

The use of the word, "should" results in a "no" answer.
That depends on who exactly the "we" is referring to.
Not in my world. It is clear that you can keep them if you want. If you don't, then don't. Folks aren't going to get brownie points or be condemned to Hell one way or the other.

Offline Beta

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #9 on: Fri May 24, 2013 - 03:30:21 »

Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?

Look at the instructions the Lord Jesus gave to Paul for the Christian Church:

Colossians 2:16 and 17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a
New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In Colossians, the “you” is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such holiday observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and celebrate, sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, hear the Word—and eat? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the feasts of Judaism, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting “circumcision” as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation from Jesus Christ) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the feasts, what about animal sacrifices to worship God? No, Christians are not required to keep these laws.

The epistle to the Hebrews is one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians, many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law were no longer applicable. For example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…”


You call them the 'feasts of Judaism...where in the Bible does it say that ? ? ?
Lev.23 , they are the 'Feasts of the LORD ...and also include the Sabbath !

Also they were given to ISRAEL, not Jews only. Jews are part of Israel, they are not the only Israel. The only 'known today the rest of them (10 tribes) are still dispersed among the rest of the world 2Kgs 17. But they exist 'unknown even to themselves. They are the ones Jesus was sent to redeem Mat.15v24. They are not lost to God !

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #10 on: Fri Aug 23, 2013 - 12:13:24 »
The Rabbis have invented a Sedar Ritual which is used today and is wrong.

It was developed in the first century  bc by rabbis Hillel and Shammai.  It has been added to over the last 2 millenia but at its core is the same as Our Lord celebrated as his Last Supper.

What is wrong with that?  If it was good enough for Jesus ...

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #11 on: Fri Aug 23, 2013 - 12:56:44 »
You call them the 'feasts of Judaism...where in the Bible does it say that ? ? ?
Right here when God tells them to Moses:

Lev 23.1 The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying,
2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

Quote
.and also include the Sabbath !

Correct! as it is written:

Exodus 31:17  It [Sabbath] is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”

The Sabbath was never given to or required of Gentiles.

Quote
Also they were given to ISRAEL, not Jews only. Jews are part of Israel, they are not the only Israel.

Since the 2nd Temple period, all Israelites have been referred to as "Jews."

Paul referred to himself as a Jew and as  being from the tribe of Benjamin. (not Judah) Those from Levi and the Aaronic priest family also are called Jews.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 23, 2013 - 13:04:18 by DaveW »

Offline Eccl12vs13

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #12 on: Sun Oct 27, 2013 - 10:00:35 »
Well.....let's read God's word.....

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Now let's read of the fate of those that did NOT keep God's laws.....


Rev.22
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


So.......in the last chapter of the last book of God's word we are given what is needed to enter into His kingdom.  We are also given examples of what will NOT allow entrance into His kingdom.


You make up your own minds.....but as for me and my family.....we will do our best to live up to the advice given in Rev.22:14.


.

Offline Eccl12vs13

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #13 on: Sun Oct 27, 2013 - 10:13:25 »

The Sabbath was never given to or required of Gentiles.



Let's read if God's laws were only for the nation of Israel;

But first lets read who fled with the nation of Israel out of Egypt;

Exod.12
[37] And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
[38] And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

So we read that it was not only the 12 tribes that fled.....but there were also a 'mixed multitude'.....a people of other nations, or 'strangers' as they were called that left with the 12 tribes of Israel.

Now let's read if God gave these 'mixed multitude'/'strangers' different laws and commandments than His chosen Israel.....


Exod.12
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15
[16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.


So God's laws....ALL of them were for ALL that choose to following the true and living God; the 'mixed multitude'/'stranger' included.

Also....did not read anywhere when the 'stranger' was to be exempt from keeping these laws and commandments.


.

HRoberson

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #14 on: Sun Oct 27, 2013 - 16:51:43 »

The Sabbath was never given to or required of Gentiles.



Let's read if God's laws were only for the nation of Israel;

But first lets read who fled with the nation of Israel out of Egypt;

Exod.12
[37] And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
[38] And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

So we read that it was not only the 12 tribes that fled.....but there were also a 'mixed multitude'.....a people of other nations, or 'strangers' as they were called that left with the 12 tribes of Israel.

Now let's read if God gave these 'mixed multitude'/'strangers' different laws and commandments than His chosen Israel.....


Exod.12
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15
[16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.


So God's laws....ALL of them were for ALL that choose to following the true and living God; the 'mixed multitude'/'stranger' included.

Also....did not read anywhere when the 'stranger' was to be exempt from keeping these laws and commandments.


.
They were applicable to Israel and foreigners who sojourned within her. They were not applicable to Edom, Egypt, Aztecs, Mayans, Chinese, or Seminoles. And they are not now.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #15 on: Sun Oct 27, 2013 - 19:06:11 »
Exod.12  [49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15  [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

So God's laws....ALL of them were for ALL that choose to following the true and living God; the 'mixed multitude'/'stranger' included.

Also....did not read anywhere when the 'stranger' was to be exempt from keeping these laws and commandments.

Except you KEEP LEAVING OFF an important phrase:   "...  that sojourneth among you."  It is there in both verses you quote.  That means you have to be living IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.   

Do you live in Israel?  Or even in a diaspora Jewish community somewhere else?  If not ....

Offline Eccl12vs13

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #16 on: Sun Oct 27, 2013 - 22:11:29 »
Exod.12  [49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15  [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

So God's laws....ALL of them were for ALL that choose to following the true and living God; the 'mixed multitude'/'stranger' included.

Also....did not read anywhere when the 'stranger' was to be exempt from keeping these laws and commandments.

Except you KEEP LEAVING OFF an important phrase:   "...  that sojourneth among you."  It is there in both verses you quote.  That means you have to be living IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.   

Do you live in Israel?  Or even in a diaspora Jewish community somewhere else?  If not ....

Just want to clear something up......the statement that "The Sabbath was never given to or required of Gentiles.", is no longer an issue!   

For as we just read ALL that was to serve the true and living God had to obey the same laws;

Exod.12  [49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15  [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.


The direction of topic is NOW that, "...you have to be living IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL." in order for God's laws to be valid for the "mixed multitude'/'strangers"?


To which I must ask.....did the 12 tribes ALWAYS dwell in their land?  Were God's laws and commandments not to be kept when they were scattered?  And what of those that were scattered with the 12 tribes?  For those that still decided to follow the true and living God, did they not have to continue to keep God's laws while God's people were required to do so?  Is that a fair God?  Let's read what God's word says concerning the 12 tribes AND the stranger even AFTER Israel is no longer in her land....

Isa.56
[1] Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
[2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
[4] For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

God YET wants ALL to keep His laws.....for doing so will result in the following; "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain..."

Just as He tells us here;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


.


Offline Jaime

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #17 on: Mon Oct 28, 2013 - 08:20:09 »
Exod.12  [49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15  [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

So God's laws....ALL of them were for ALL that choose to following the true and living God; the 'mixed multitude'/'stranger' included.

Also....did not read anywhere when the 'stranger' was to be exempt from keeping these laws and commandments.

Except you KEEP LEAVING OFF an important phrase:   "...  that sojourneth among you."  It is there in both verses you quote.  That means you have to be living IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.   

Do you live in Israel?  Or even in a diaspora Jewish community somewhere else?  If not ....

Dave, when that law was spoken, Neither the Hebrews nor the sojourners were in the land of Israel.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #18 on: Mon Oct 28, 2013 - 08:52:36 »
Dave, when that law was spoken, Neither the Hebrews nor the sojourners were in the land of Israel.

Quite right.  And many of those ordinances could ONLY be observed AFTER being in the land  (like not harvesting the corners of your fields) and giving a tithe (no income in the desert).

Offline Jaime

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #19 on: Mon Oct 28, 2013 - 09:10:12 »
Many yes, but not the one in question.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #20 on: Mon Oct 28, 2013 - 09:27:23 »
Many yes, but not the one in question.

The OP talked about circumcision.  I think he does not realize that when Paul talked about receiving "circumcision" he was actually speaking of formal conversion to Judaism (the same usage as the "judaizers" in Acts 15.1) because it was the final step in that conversion. 

And do we really need another thread about the Sabbath? Since that is not in the title, maybe we can use this one to talk about OTHER laws and feasts.

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #21 on: Mon Oct 28, 2013 - 09:48:17 »
Yeah, I think another thread about the Sabbath would be good.

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Oct 29, 2013 - 05:38:14 »
Some of you are still hung up on the OT alone.
Are you not reading Acts 10v35 : But in EVERY NATION he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted with Him .
There is no longer any division now as was in the past....all are one in Christ (if they have taken on Christ).
ISRAEL consisted of a MIXED MULTITUDE with some associating closely with Israels practices...all these were under the same law EX.12. And this is indeed the teaching for today.
I think the problem is that people don't know who they really are or what their standing is with God.
Scipture says :my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Saying that the sabbath and Feasts were only given to the Jews is totally misleading. They were given to ISRAEL, a close-knit mixed multitude , meaning anyone who wanted to be one with them.
Israel consisted of 12 tribes (Jacob/Israel had 12 sons...not all were jewish or had a jewish mother) and to call them all Jews is simply not true. ONLY the Jews are known as Israel today (because they were allowed to return from their captivity Neh.8, explains some of it)  but they are not all Israel...many more Israelites (non jewish) are still lost 2Kgs.17, because of sabbath-breaking !

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Oct 29, 2013 - 05:47:29 »
Exod.12  [49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15  [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

So God's laws....ALL of them were for ALL that choose to following the true and living God; the 'mixed multitude'/'stranger' included.

Also....did not read anywhere when the 'stranger' was to be exempt from keeping these laws and commandments.

Except you KEEP LEAVING OFF an important phrase:   "...  that sojourneth among you."  It is there in both verses you quote.  That means you have to be living IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.   

Do you live in Israel?  Or even in a diaspora Jewish community somewhere else?  If not ....

The physical location is not in question today, that was OT requirement.
We are now in a 'spiritual situation where Acts 10v35 applies. We do not have to move to Israel or Join one of your groups.
What we all need to do for a start is to '' remember the Sabbath to keep it holy , 4th commandment...and like the Jews in the OT, the lost house of Israel will be allowed to return to God.

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Oct 29, 2013 - 05:53:16 »
Many yes, but not the one in question.

The OP talked about circumcision.  I think he does not realize that when Paul talked about receiving "circumcision" he was actually speaking of formal conversion to Judaism (the same usage as the "judaizers" in Acts 15.1) because it was the final step in that conversion. 

And do we really need another thread about the Sabbath? Since that is not in the title, maybe we can use this one to talk about OTHER laws and feasts.
I think the Sabbath IS important because it is the day God has ''sanctified and set apart...a day in which Christ is present and we will hear the truth !

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Oct 29, 2013 - 05:58:03 »
Exod.12  [49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15  [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

So God's laws....ALL of them were for ALL that choose to following the true and living God; the 'mixed multitude'/'stranger' included.

Also....did not read anywhere when the 'stranger' was to be exempt from keeping these laws and commandments.

Except you KEEP LEAVING OFF an important phrase:   "...  that sojourneth among you."  It is there in both verses you quote.  That means you have to be living IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.   

Do you live in Israel?  Or even in a diaspora Jewish community somewhere else?  If not ....

Dave, when that law was spoken, Neither the Hebrews nor the sojourners were in the land of Israel.
That is a very good point ..and we don't need to live there today.

Offline Beta

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Oct 29, 2013 - 06:09:18 »

Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?

Look at the instructions the Lord Jesus gave to Paul for the Christian Church:

Colossians 2:16 and 17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a
New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In Colossians, the “you” is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such holiday observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and celebrate, sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, hear the Word—and eat? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the feasts of Judaism, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting “circumcision” as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation from Jesus Christ) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the feasts, what about animal sacrifices to worship God? No, Christians are not required to keep these laws.

The epistle to the Hebrews is one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians, many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law were no longer applicable. For example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…”


If you want to, do so
If you don't want to, don't

It is not a sin if you do so, and it is not a sin if you don't. Jesus nor any Apostle ever instructed Christians to continue to keep the feasts of the old Testament. As for should we keep the laws, know you not that it is written we are no longer under the law? If we are no longer under the law, how say some we should live by the old testament laws?


^i^

It would be a sin to keep the Feasts according to the Bible, which calls for an animal sacrifice. We can't use Jesus again, as He has already been sacrificed.

The Rabbis have invented a Sedar Ritual which is used today and is wrong.

This is precisely why I don't believe that the Law will be restored along with animal sacrifices in the future.  It is said that the sacrifices will be memorials, but what would be the need for a memorial when Christ himself is present? 
You are right , the WORKS of the law (physical rituals and sacrifices) will never be restored again , it would be an insult to Christ who has paid for them with His life.
To learn about the background through the feasts would help our understanding immensely because we need the true foundations to our beliefs.
We are not required to keep the feasts exactly as in the OT but remember them as 'memorials.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #27 on: Tue Oct 29, 2013 - 07:06:32 »
The physical location is not in question today, that was OT requirement.

You have a bad understanding of how covenants work - specifically in regards to how they were changed in the ancient world. That has led to this bad hermeneutic and conclusion. The fact is when covenants were changed/replaced/updated, anything not specifically covered in the new version is carried over from the old. Not understanding this principle has led our Church of Christ brothers to conclude that musical instruments are not permitted in New Testament assemblies because they are  never mentioned in the NT. But they are carried over from the Mosaic covenant and similarly the location is ALSO carried over for the same reason.

Quote
We are now in a 'spiritual situation where Acts 10v35 applies. We do not have to move to Israel or Join one of your groups.

To what, exactly? Be pleasing to God? Of course not.

It is ALSO true that, according to Acts 15, if you are a gentile and do NOT live in the Jewish community you are not REQUIRED to keep the sabbath to be pleasing to HIM either. You have the option to keep it if you want but it is not REQUIRED.

But if you are saying you do not have to move to Israel or be attached to a diaspora Jewish community to be REQUIRED to keep Shabbat; you are wrong.

Quote
What we all need to do for a start is to '' remember the Sabbath to keep it holy , 4th commandment...and like the Jews in the OT, the lost house of Israel will be allowed to return to God.

Whether you, a gentile, keeps Shabbat or not will not affect those of the "lost house of Israel" coming to the Lord one way or the other, UNLESS you are in a place (like in the diaspora Jewish community) to make traditional Jews JEALOUS (Rom 11.11). In which case you need a form of worship that does not look like paganism to traditional Jews. (believe me - Adventism definitely looks pagan as do most versions of Christianity)

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Oct 29, 2013 - 07:20:12 »
BTW Beta - the title of this thread says "Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts? "

What feast other than Shabbat do you advocate keeping?

Passover?
Unleavened Bread?
First Fruits?
Shavuot/Pentecost?
Day of trumpets?
Day of Atonement? 
Feast of Tabernacles?
8th day?

(the list from Leviticus 23)

Offline Beta

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #29 on: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 05:24:46 »
The physical location is not in question today, that was OT requirement.

You have a bad understanding of how covenants work - specifically in regards to how they were changed in the ancient world. That has led to this bad hermeneutic and conclusion. The fact is when covenants were changed/replaced/updated, anything not specifically covered in the new version is carried over from the old. Not understanding this principle has led our Church of Christ brothers to conclude that musical instruments are not permitted in New Testament assemblies because they are  never mentioned in the NT. But they are carried over from the Mosaic covenant and similarly the location is ALSO carried over for the same reason.

Quote
We are now in a 'spiritual situation where Acts 10v35 applies. We do not have to move to Israel or Join one of your groups.

To what, exactly? Be pleasing to God? Of course not.

It is ALSO true that, according to Acts 15, if you are a gentile and do NOT live in the Jewish community you are not REQUIRED to keep the sabbath to be pleasing to HIM either. You have the option to keep it if you want but it is not REQUIRED.

But if you are saying you do not have to move to Israel or be attached to a diaspora Jewish community to be REQUIRED to keep Shabbat; you are wrong.

Quote
What we all need to do for a start is to '' remember the Sabbath to keep it holy , 4th commandment...and like the Jews in the OT, the lost house of Israel will be allowed to return to God.

Whether you, a gentile, keeps Shabbat or not will not affect those of the "lost house of Israel" coming to the Lord one way or the other, UNLESS you are in a place (like in the diaspora Jewish community) to make traditional Jews JEALOUS (Rom 11.11). In which case you need a form of worship that does not look like paganism to traditional Jews. (believe me - Adventism definitely looks pagan as do most versions of Christianity)

First let me say ''I am NOT a 7th day Adventist ''
And my reply to all your other answers is that you are making the New Covenant just as difficult and complicated to understand as the Jews did with the Old , and thereby brought on themselves Jesus' reprimands and condemnation...some of which we can read in Matt.23.
Scripture tells us there is 'simplicity in Christ Jesus' that does not require all these 'DO's and DON'T's ' the jewish mindset can't seem to let go of.
Now in the NT we are to have a 'spiritual approach' to what were once literal physical works/observances in the OT. Does not mean we totally ignore them for they are our 'foundation from which we get our spiritual understanding....so we do need to KNOW them, not still do them .
The Feasts of Lev.23 should be observed AS memorials and serve as lessons to be taught .
But we don't start with all the Feasts , we start with the SABBATH . This won't happen until people start to '' remember'' it as a special DAY of GOD Lev.23....when they learn to understand that it is the Sabbath of the LORD - a day for holy convocations/meetings - with Him. No longer a day for resting and sleeping but scripture tells us to ''awake'' from.
It is not helping people to wake up when they are told the Sabbath is not for them, so they will continue to see it as jewish instead of GOD's DAY when HE is teaching all who come to HIM Acts 10v35.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #30 on: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 05:42:04 »
Quote
First let me say ''I am NOT a 7th day Adventist ''
OK Beta - Your posts seem to reflect typical Adventist positions (and I grew up near Andrews U so I am familiar with SDA) so I assumed you were SDA.  My apologies for getting that wrong.

The rest of what you posted sounds to me like so much Replacement theology mixed with anti-nomianism. (SDA is big on RT)

Quote
But we don't start with all the Feasts , we start with the SABBATH .
As to starting with the Sabbath - so does Leviticus 23.

What I find confusing is you are saying the Sabbath is for everyone; but the rest of it is not. That is inconsistent (but in keeping with SDA opinion as well).  I cannot find the logic in that.

What I am saying is based on the decisions of Acts 15 (as further explained in Acts 21) that the ethnic Jews still keep the Mosaic commands (albeit re-purposed in a New Covenant environment) but the Gentile converts were exempted except for 4 commands (which does not include the Sabbath).
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 05:46:39 by DaveW »

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #31 on: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 06:41:43 »
Quote
First let me say ''I am NOT a 7th day Adventist ''
OK Beta - Your posts seem to reflect typical Adventist positions (and I grew up near Andrews U so I am familiar with SDA) so I assumed you were SDA.  My apologies for getting that wrong.

The rest of what you posted sounds to me like so much Replacement theology mixed with anti-nomianism. (SDA is big on RT)

Quote
But we don't start with all the Feasts , we start with the SABBATH .
As to starting with the Sabbath - so does Leviticus 23.

What I find confusing is you are saying the Sabbath is for everyone; but the rest of it is not. That is inconsistent (but in keeping with SDA opinion as well).  I cannot find the logic in that.

What I am saying is based on the decisions of Acts 15 (as further explained in Acts 21) that the ethnic Jews still keep the Mosaic commands (albeit re-purposed in a New Covenant environment) but the Gentile converts were exempted except for 4 commands (which does not include the Sabbath).
Where we have problems is when we maintain the difference between Jews and Gentiles.Perhaps that was still very evident at the time of Paul. However 'in Christ ' there is no such division, I emphasise ''IN CHRIST''...not according to Paul's 'hard to understand writings. 2000 years down the line has brought us to the end of human perceptions that can hold us back...even Paul's ...no disrespect intended. Look what he wrote in Rom.14 THEN,,,,and people still cling to it today, afraid to move on. The Bible obviously covers a WIDE span of time...7000 years or more, and not everything in it is for all time.
I am not saying the sabbath is for everyone but the feasts are not. I am saying the sabbath is for all who want to learn from God, from Jesus who is a teacher come from God. In Him we all come under the same rules/ regulations/commandments. HE is the same God of all. If people choose NOT to learn on the sabbath when God holds His holy convocations they will obviously hear men's confused babblings rather than God's simple to the point truth. I said the feasts are no longer demanded to be kept in the OT letter of the law but in the Spirit of Christ without any physical rituals/works. We should observe them as memorials to learn their original purpose.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #32 on: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 07:00:00 »
Quote
In Him we all come under the same rules/ regulations/commandments. HE is the same God of all.

Correct on the 2nd part - not so much on the first.

Husbands and wives come under different rules/commands, as do parents and children. 

As a man I am not allowed to marry another man and my wife as a woman is not allowed to marry another woman.

The SAME VERSES that say there is no longer Jew or Gentile also say there is neither male or female.  So why is the male/female distinction still recognized and enforced while the other distinction (in the same sentence) is totally obliterated?

That is completely inconsistent.

Quote
2000 years down the line has brought us to the end of human perceptions that can hold us back...even Paul's ...no disrespect intended. Look what he wrote in Rom.14 THEN,,,,and people still cling to it today, afraid to move on.

And that is complete heresy. You are, in effect, throwing out the Bible.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 07:03:31 by DaveW »

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #33 on: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 08:28:51 »
Quote
In Him we all come under the same rules/ regulations/commandments. HE is the same God of all.

Correct on the 2nd part - not so much on the first.

Husbands and wives come under different rules/commands, as do parents and children. 

As a man I am not allowed to marry another man and my wife as a woman is not allowed to marry another woman.

The SAME VERSES that say there is no longer Jew or Gentile also say there is neither male or female.  So why is the male/female distinction still recognized and enforced while the other distinction (in the same sentence) is totally obliterated?

That is completely inconsistent.

Quote
2000 years down the line has brought us to the end of human perceptions that can hold us back...even Paul's ...no disrespect intended. Look what he wrote in Rom.14 THEN,,,,and people still cling to it today, afraid to move on.

And that is complete heresy. You are, in effect, throwing out the Bible.
No Dave, I'm not throwing out the Bible but rather I am seeing it differently....NOW with spiritual eyes more than physical. As you say... a man is not allowed to marry another man (in our human situation) but spiritually a man can be 'espoused to one husband , another male. The same goes for men and women ....humanly/physically we occupy different positions, have different roles but when it comes to God we are all expected to humbly submit to HIM in obedience...neither the one or other group can claim excemption. IN and through Christ we learn to become obedient to Him first Heb.5v9, so He can clean us of sin and error to present us to God without spot or wrinkle. The OT tells us that God only wants the best offered to Him...not those lamed, mamed or imperfect..
Paul could not make anyone perfect. Even though an Apostle of exaulted position he tells us to follow him as he followed Christ 1Cor.11v1. JESUS always is in the lead and can not be replaced by Paul or any other Apostle. They can only lead so far but not make perfect...that is Christ's job.

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Re: Should we keep Old Testament Laws and Feasts?
« Reply #34 on: Wed Oct 30, 2013 - 08:49:44 »
You missed my point entirely.

 

     
anything