Author Topic: Water Baptism/Yogi and p.rehbein (Read 4103 times)

p.rehbein · « **on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:43:41 »

Ok, Yogi, I know you wanna get into this, so I put it here so it's between you and me. No, it's not a challenge (as in: it's on now guy), but, rather so it's just you and me and we don't have to worry about others joining in and this thread turning into one consisting of name calling and hurt feelings and such.

So, state your position and we will begin. HOWEVER, I fully expect you to offer sincere personal/Scriptural input towards my thread concerning being baptized for the dead.

Hey! It's called "quid-pro-quo," and, shoot, that's only fair is it not?

Awright, get out your

and give it a go.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:43:41 »

p.rehbein · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:48:13 »

Let me add quickly that my work day/hour approcheth, so, just because you don't get an immediate response from me, does not mean................

YOU WON! and I'm sulking in defeat...............

It just means I'm probably working and will return.............whenever...............

for now, I'm here...................but it's almost 8AM CST, and I gotta get moving by in a few.

You load up your ammunition (Scriptures/opinions/assertions) and, I'll dazzle you with mine sooner or later.

God bless.......

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:48:13 »

yogi bear · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 08:11:12 »

Yes I am at work already so I will add to the discussion at breaks and when possible but where are we to start is this a spin from your baptism for the dead or to determine if water baptism is that of Acts 2:38 and of water / spirit and not just an empty ritual? They will blind together cause for what purpose is it for the dead if it is not answered in what it is talking of in Acts 2:38

yogi bear · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 08:13:25 »

Let me add that WED and Thursday I will be away the wife broke her ankle and will have to have surgery Wed. and wont be released before Thursday so I will be away but will continue upon return to home.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 13:33:19 »

First, sorry to hear about your wife, I pray God will be with her and the Dr's and that all will be well with her and a speedy recovery for her.

Affirmation Commentary: First, I supose, I should offer a commentary on my views/beliefs concerning water baptism and where it fits into the Christian life. I am persuaded that water baptism is one of the three doctrines given to us by Jesus Christ Himself, and it is the duty of every Christian to obey these doctrins. The three doctrins being:

1) Water baptism
2) Celebrating Communion (the Lord's Supper)
30 Footwashing

In each of these cases, Jesus told us to do them. An old saying I learned in Sunday School kinda sums it up for me: "God said to do it, Jesus Christ did it, I believe it, and, for me, that settles it."

I believe that immersion is the way baptism is taught in the Scriptures. Yes, I know there are others who disagree, however, this is my Affirmation Commentary, and that is what I believe, my church (CoG, Anderson,In) teaches and practices. Why? Simply put when we are baptised, we are celebrating the burrial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour, and being obedient to His commandment/doctrine. When immersed, we are burried with Him. Now, Jesus didn't just go into the grave ankle deep and stop there, nor was He sprinkled with the dirt that covered the grave, He went all the way in, and so should we. When we rise from the water, we are resurrected in Him, and we can come out of the water (world) a new man who was burried with Christ and resurrected with Christ. Yes, there are instances/examples of times when immersion baptism is not physically possible or practicle, and another form must be practiced to be obedient to Christ. However, whenever, where ever possible, immersion baptism should be practiced in my opinion and in the teachings of my Church.

I believe and my Church teaches that there are two baptisms. The baptism of the Holy Ghost and water baptism, but they are not the same. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a personal experience that occurs within a man (generic usage of man) upon his conversion, and no earthly man can see this event. No man who has ever lived, currently lives, or will live can see with his own eyes when the baptism of the Holy Ghost occurs within another. Yes, they can see the effects of that baptism, in that the person who is baptised by the Holy Ghost experiences a radical change in their lives and they are dead to the man they were and are born again a new man. Earthly eyes cannot see Spiritual acts, only the results of those acts. On the other hand, water baptism is an earthly/physical act which all the world can witness/attest to. When we are water baptised, we profess to the world our belief in Jesus Christ and our acceptance of Him as our Lord and Saviour and our obedience to His commandment that we do so. All the world is a witness to this! It is because of this that all Christians should if at all possible be water baptised in my opinion.

Expanding on the theme:

I am concerned that many Christians faithfully accept and practice the doctrine of baptism and the doctrine of Communion, but seem quite willing to completely ignore the doctrine of footwashing. I simply can not understand this reasoning. Baptism is an act of obedience to the commandment of Jesus Christ who told us to do so. Celebrating Communion (the Lord's Supper) is an act of obedience to the commandment of Jesus Christ who told us to do so. Footwashing is an act of obedience to the commandment of Jesus Christ who told us to do so. How Christians can openly embrace one or two of these and openly reject the third is beyond me.

Water baptism is symbolic of our burrial and resurrection with Christ (as described above).

Communion is symbolic of our sharing in the Crucifixion of Christ. I know that there are some who believe that the Communion wine magically (use of the word magically not intended in a derogratory manner, but, rather descriptive) transforms into the actual blood of Christ when placed in ones mouth, and the Communion wafer magically transforms into the actual flesh of Christ when placed in ones mouth, and, hey, if that is what they believe, that's fine with me. I do not. I believe they are symbolic of the blood and flesh of Christ.

Footwashing is symbolic of the Servant's heart of Christ that we are all to strive to have. As the Scriptures state, Jesus came to minister to, not to BE ministered to. The odd thing is, that when we participate in the Footwashing celebration, we actually are performing an act of servitude! For we are actually washing the feet of another believer, one of our brothers in Christ! We are openly displaying our acceptance of what Christ taught and that is that we are to have a servant's heart!

Ok, I know that was somewhat "off-topic," but, not so much really. I hope you can see how the three fit together and why I expanded on the theme of this thread with them. If not, forive me for possibly creating confusion/contention. Now, back to water baptism.

Back to Affirmation Commentary:

Because I say that water baptism is an act of obedience, symbolic of our Spiritual Baptism, some have accused me of rendering wate baptism to nothing more than a meaningless ritual. Nothing could be further from the truth. As I stated above and will again state, water baptism is one of the most important things a new Christian can and must do to proclaim his belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Man cannot see our faith! Man cannot see the Holy Ghost that resides within us! What man/the world can see is the results of our faith, and having the Holy Ghost residing within us, and this by our works! This is what water baptism accomplishes/displays to all mankind.

(ok, for now I think this is a good start for me..............will continue as the discussion progresses............)

God bless and my prayers and best wishes for your wife.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 13:33:19 »

yogi bear · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 15:05:39 »

Quote

I believe that immersion is the way baptism is taught in the Scriptures. Yes, I know there are others who disagree, however, this is my Affirmation Commentary, and that is what I believe, my church (CoG, Anderson,In) teaches and practices. Why? Simply put when we are baptised, we are celebrating the burrial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour, and being obedient to His commandment/doctrine. When immersed, we are burried with Him. Now, Jesus didn't just go into the grave ankle deep and stop there, nor was He sprinkled with the dirt that covered the grave, He went all the way in, and so should we. When we rise from the water, we are resurrected in Him, and we can come out of the water (world) a new man who was burried with Christ and resurrected with Christ. Yes, there are instances/examples of times when immersion baptism is not physically possible or practicle, and another form must be practiced to be obedient to Christ. However, whenever, where ever possible, immersion baptism should be practiced in my opinion and in the teachings of my Church.

This I mostly agree with you on just see it a little more powerful than you expressed. See this is what Paul taught in Romans 6. It is where we join Christ in his work on the Cross. I can not agree more with you here.

The difference in our understanding here is that you see it as only symbolic where as I see it as God actually doing the symbolism in this so called ritual. Kind of like the cleansing of the leprosy where the guy was told to dip in the Jordan seven times. It was not the water or the dipping that cleansed him but it was to be done they way God instructed or he did not do the cleansing. Same here It is not the water or anything else but following through with the way God instructed.

I see it as both water and spirit as Jesus talked of in John 3 for if you hear Peter he said that is in the baptism in Jesus name that the spirit is given. If you listen to Paul in Romans he tells that it is God who is working in the baptism by cleansing you your sins in burial in Christ work and raising you in a new life.

Quote

I believe and my Church teaches that there are two baptisms. The baptism of the Holy Ghost and water baptism, but they are not the same. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a personal experience that occurs within a man (generic usage of man) upon his conversion, and no earthly man can see this event. No man who has ever lived, currently lives, or will live can see with his own eyes when the baptism of the Holy Ghost occurs within another. Yes, they can see the effects of that baptism, in that the person who is baptised by the Holy Ghost experiences a radical change in their lives and they are dead to the man they were and are born again a new man. Earthly eyes cannot see Spiritual acts, only the results of those acts. On the other hand, water baptism is an earthly/physical act which all the world can witness/attest to. When we are water baptised, we profess to the world our belief in Jesus Christ and our acceptance of Him as our Lord and Saviour and our obedience to His commandment that we do so. All the world is a witness to this! It is because of this that all Christians should if at all possible be water baptised in my opinion.

This is where we start differing as I said above I see the two baptisms as one. Which to me also fits with Eph. 4 more closely as to one baptism on Lord and such. Which Also show Titus 3 to fit here also. Yes it is the Spirit that is doing the work in Baptism it is the spirit that is reference in this passage Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour Not what we do or water but the Spirit doing his work. Therefore we are given the spirit in baptism and God transforms us in baptism so it is water and spirit as Jesus said. The two are one. It is not just symbolic but what God is really doing.

Now for the foot washing you are correct I have not really studied that and not been to any church that practice it or teaches it as the other two so I will have to look more closely at it . Right now I just hurried a reply while still at work so it may not make much sense but will give it more closer attention later

p.rehbein · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed Sep 14, 2011 - 05:58:01 »

Yogi, I'm in a bit of a rush myself this AM, but the great thing about this one-on-one format is we can get to it when we can and not have to worry about a zillion other comments to scroll through to see what you or I said.

POINT 1: My frirst Point was to see if we agree that Water Baptism is not only Biblical, but a commandment for Christians to do.

If we can both agree that this is true, then we have established the basis for the debate/discussion.

Once that point has been established/agreed to, then we can venture into the various aspects/interpretations of what water baptism is and so forth.

I would like to kind of know your Affirmation Commentary so I have as full an understanding of your mindset as I have given you of mine. Just debating/discussing my views is only a one-sided coin methinks.

(prayers for your wife.............)

yogi bear · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed Sep 14, 2011 - 08:31:16 »

First Thanks for the Prayers for the wife we are fixin to leave for the surgery and will be away for a day or two.

Yes p.rehbein, I totally agree with you on point one I thought that was a given sorry for not making it so.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed Sep 14, 2011 - 14:42:06 »

Great, so we are in agreement that water Baptism IS Biblical and a commandment from Jesus Himself. So, we can file this one in the Agreed To File.
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Ok, next I supose we get into the whole idea of water Baptism as it relates to the receiving of the Holy Ghost. I'm gonna dig out my study stuff and get it all together and then I'll post my personal view on this.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed Sep 14, 2011 - 17:27:07 »

Yogi: You can start with this one if you want..........

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Acts 10:44-48

yogi bear · « **Reply #10 on:** Fri Sep 16, 2011 - 22:07:36 »

Ok I will try to answer this for you. Please give it real consideration as you read.
Lets keep this in context.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
Acts 10:1-6 (KJV)

Now lets see what was said here. Cornelius was A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He was a good vessel for God to finish the the prophesy of Joel Peter spoke of in Acts 2 of the out pouring of the spirit. It at this time had only been poured out on the Jews but now it comes the Gentiles turn.

Now also note that it is the same as happened to the Apostles in Acts 2 as will be shown in the study it is a pouring not the the indwelling. Note also that God did not just pour out the spirit but sent for Peter to tell what has to be done. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Also note that Peter had to be conditioned for this mission.

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? 22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. 23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends. 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Acts 10:9-28 (KJV)

See God had to condition Peter to go and proclaim the gospel to the Gentiles He would have never done it with out the conditioning. This is important to note because the good news was only thought to be for the Jews at this point and the Jews had to have signs to convince them that it can be shared with the Gentiles. This is an important point Gods gives to convey the message.

Remember also if the spirit was to be poured out with out the gospel message then God would not have had to send for Peter. Peter is going to have an important role.

Peter tells them that God made it clear to him that they were to hear the Gospel.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 10:34-43 (KJV)

So he began to preach the gospel of Christ. Now here comes the difference shown by the context.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:44-46 (KJV)

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In that passage we read that it was the circumcision which believed were astonished. All that came with Peter. It was a sign for the believers that the Gentiles has been added that is what it reads. It was to prove to the Jews that was the purpose along with the final fulfillment of the prophesy of Joel.

To show more clearly that is was the same as Acts 2:4 a simple reading of the next verse clears that up
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Acts 10:46 (KJV)

See that is the same as Acts 2:4 the filling not the indwelling and as the chapter show was twofold one was the fulfillment of Joel's prophesy and the second was to convence the Jews that the first was to be done.

Now that God had convinced the Jews what was Peters reaction??

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,
Acts 10:46-47 (KJV)

In reference to the same command He gave in Acts 2:38

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
Why because it is for remission of sin and giving of the indwelling Spirit which was promised unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The spirit was pour out on the Gentiles as told it would be on all flesh but the indwelling spirit is promised to be given through baptism in Christ name

which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:47 (KJV) Is in reference to Acts 2:4

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)

Baptism in the name of Christ is a water baptism as dully noted in Acts 10:47,48 Which is first mentioned in Acts 2:38

I hope that answer the question as to how I see it and with scriptures to show why I have come to understand it in that manner.

This pouring out was not the giving of the indwelling spirit as seen in Acts 2:38 but the out pouring as of Acts 2:4 Why do I say that is clear in the passage.let look close at what was said.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat Sep 17, 2011 - 05:42:58 »

quoted:
See God had to condition Peter to go and proclaim the gospel to the Gentiles He would have never done it with out the conditioning. This is important to note because the good news was only thought to be for the Jews at this point and the Jews had to have signs to convince them that it can be shared with the Gentiles. This is an important point Gods gives to convey the message.
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But this is not special to this situation. Those who preached the Gospel to the Jews also had to be conditioned by God/Jesus. Shoot, even Jesus Himself was conditioned prior to starting His ministry. Remember the 40 days in th wilderness? Jesus spent three years conditioning the Apostles, and, even then, they were instructed to wait until they received the Holy Ghost, which came about at Pentacost. So, it's no suprise that Peter had to be conditioned. Moses was conditioned by God. Jonah was conditoned by God. Abraham was conditioned by God. David was conditioned by God..........I don't see any special sign here having to do with water baptism, sorry.

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quoted:

Remember also if the spirit was to be poured out with out the gospel message then God would not have had to send for Peter. Peter is going to have an important role.
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I don't think anyone would argue that preaching the Gospel is how folks come to believe in Jesus. Yes, some will argue that folks have come to believe in God without EVER hearing the Gospel spoken, and this is probably true. However, believing in God and believing in Jesus are two different things. Believing in God is realizing that there is/must be an all-powerful Creator, while believing in Jesus is the acceptance of Him as one' personal Lord and Saviour. This belief comes from hearing the Gospel, being brought under conviction by the Holy Ghost and being obedient to the calling of God to repentance.
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Ok, now we get into the nuts and bolts of what is Holy Ghost baptism

Can one receive the Holy Ghost "POURING OUT," and not be baptised in the Holy Ghost? This seems to be what you are suggesting IMO. Again, IMO, the Holy Ghost does not/ will not pour out Himself upon the unrepentant. This pouring out occurs upon those who have heard the Gospel preached, believed in Jesus the Christ, came under conviction of the Holy Ghost and are obedient to the call of God for them to repent. So, these Gentiles who are spoken of in these Scriptures had become believers just as were the Jews who traveled with Peter.

The argument you seem to be making is the difference between a "pouring out" of the Holy Ghost and the "indwelling" of the Holy Ghost. We, however, are discussion the baptism of the Holy Ghost. If we are to believe these Scriptures, it is clear to me that these newly converted Gentiles were in fact baptised by the Holy Ghost. He poured out Himself upon them. They were COVERED in/with the Holy Ghost. One might say they were "immersed" with the Holy Ghost, and they CERTAINLY received the GIFTS of the Holy Ghost. Ergo, they were BAPTISED with the Holy Ghost prior to being water baptised.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:44-46 (KJV)

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,
Acts 10:46-47 (KJV)

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)

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It is quite clear from these Scriptures that the Gentiles spoken of had RECEIVED the Holy Ghost every bit as much as had the Jews, and this receiving occured BEFORE water baptism. But, now, that's just me I supose...........

You see it all still comes down to the two DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT baptisms taught in Scripture and they are Holy Ghost baptism and water baptism. One is a baptism unto salvation and one a baptism in obedience to the Commandment of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour and serves as a witness to the world of a persons belief in and proclomaiton of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
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Again, to look at these Scriptures as recorded in the Complete Jewish Bible:

34 Then Kefa addressed them: "I now understand that God does not play favorites, 35 but that whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him, no matter what people he belongs to. 36 "Here is the message that he sent to the sons of Isra'el announcing shalom through Yeshua the Messiah, who is Lord of everything. 37 You know what has been going on throughout Y'hudah, starting from the Galil after the immersion that Yochanan proclaimed; 38 how God anointed Yeshua from Natzeret with the Ruach HaKodesh and with power; how Yeshua went about doing good and healing all the people oppressed by the Adversary, because God was with him. 39 "As for us, we are witnesses of everything he did, both in the Judean countryside j 40 but and in Yerushalayim. They did away with him by hanging him on a stake;God raised him up on the third day and let him be seen, 41 not by all the people, but by witnesses God had previously chosen, that is, by us, who ate and drank with him after he had risen again from the dead. 42 "Then he commanded us to proclaim and attest to the Jewish people that this man has been appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets bear witness to him, that everyone who puts his trust in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." 44 Kefa was still saying these things when the Ruach HaKodesh fell on all who were hearing the message. 45 All the believers from the Circumcision faction who had accompanied Kefa were amazed that the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh was also being poured out 46 on the Goyim, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Kefa's response was, 47 "Is anyone prepared to prohibit these people from being immersed in water? After all, they have received the Ruach HaKodesh, just as we did." 48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. Then they asked Kefa to stay on with them for a few days.
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These Scriptures clearly show that one can occur prior to and independent of the other.

Again, my opinion only, as I believe and understand the Scriptures.

yogi bear · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat Sep 17, 2011 - 10:08:53 »

Yes I agree one has to define the term of the Holy Spirit baptism. As I tried to point out in Acts 2 we see two different things. We read that the spirit was poured out as prophesied by Joel but it is not complete it is not on all flesh but only on the Jews. That is a big play into understanding the teaching on this. It is a empowerment for witnessing as seen in Acts 1:8

Then we see Peter answer the crowd that asked what must we do in Acts 2:37 and Peter tells them Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)

This is important to understand we are not told to be baptized because we were saved but we are to repent an be baptized in Christ name for the remission of our sins and to receive the spirit it is how we are told we receive the promised spirit it was not told us that we had or should wait for it but to be baptized in Christ name to receive it.

The spirit filled many people and even animals with out the indwelling as seen all through the bible and was for witnessing or signs or proof. It is different than the indwelling the word made that clear and even made it clear that the out pouring was for signs and wonders to be a witnessing power. Also you only see that in two places recorded as in Acts 2 and Acts 10 any other was transferred by someone as through laying on of hands. I know you will not see this as I do but hope you will look into this to see if I am speaking truth but hope you do. If I have missed where the spirit was poured out as Peter is talking in Acts 10 about what happened to him in Acts 2, I would like to see BCV

No where following Acts 2 do we see the the events of 2:4 before Acts 10 but we see only the transfer of power starting in chapter 6and following. That is why Peter said as on us as in the beginning. if I am wrong show me BCV please. I am trying to learn not teach but show why I understand as I do and am open of more knowledge.

Now back to the spirit baptism and where do I see it being.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call
Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)

That is where Peter (speaking as the spirit gives utterance) tell how God is giving the spirit as promised to all and their children and all that are far off so other words everyone that comes to God will do so in this manner. In this baptism in the name of Christ you will receive remission of sin for the cross was tied to this baptism as seen in various scriptures (Rom. 6, 1 Cor.1, ect)and the promised spirit indwelling. This is the spirit baptism prophesy Jesus came to fulfill for it is the one that the cross was tied to and the giving of the spirit was tied to and it is not work of man but work of God cleansing man of sin and giving the spirit for a walk in new life. Paul teaches it in Romans 6 he makes it real clear just what god is doing in this baptism. Where some see symbolism they miss the fact that God said it is reality.

Acts 2:38 more closely resembles the spirit baptism than the one of Acts 2:4 or Acts 10 because the Baptism in Christ name where Peter teaches that the indwelling spirit is given to all but you do not hear that of the on from Acts 2:4 or Acts 10 it is for empowerment for witnessing and is transferred from one to another by laying on of hands so I would not call it the baptism of the spirit so that points back to Acts 2:38

Ok I hope I covered this well enough to make my point I kinda hurried through it so if not clear ask and I will try to clear it up.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 07:05:27 »

Yogi: Am studying your comment and will address it soon God willing.

I thought it might be a good idea to see if we can update where we are in agreement so as to better define our difference(s).

We have agreed that:

1) Water Baptism is taught in Scripture and is Biblical.
2) That all new Christians should be water Baptized.

Now, can we agree on the following:

1) Jesus commanded that we be water baptised.

2) There are two distinctive forms of Baptism taught in Scripture;
a) Water Baptism
b) Holy Ghost Baptism

3) Water baptism is an act of obedience to the commandment given to us by Jesus

4) Holy Ghost baptism is the baptism unto salvation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean these in the narrowest sense of their definitions in that Jesus said for us to go forth and the Apostle said to be baptized (with reference to water baptism), so our doing that is an act of obedience. The Holy Ghost baptism is the "cleansing" power that washes away our sin with the blood of Jesus Christ.

___________________________________________

If we can agree on these (don't know that we can), then it seems to me that our difference(s) is/are "when is the power of the Holy Ghost baptism imparted unto us?

I will answer "Yes" to the above offerings, however without your agreement, they will remain in debate.

God bless (hope your wife's surgery went well..............)

yogi bear · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 09:37:35 »

We have agreed that:

1) Water Baptism is taught in Scripture and is Biblical.
2) That all new Christians should be water Baptized.

Yes we are in total agreement here

Now, can we agree on the following:

1) Jesus commanded that we be water baptized (Yes.)

2) There are two distinctive forms of Baptism taught in Scripture; (Yes and No, but)
a) Water Baptism
b) Holy Ghost Baptism

3) Water baptism is an act of obedience to the commandment given to us by Jesus (Yes in its simplest definition)

4) Holy Ghost baptism is the baptism unto salvation ( Yes but it is combined with water baptism)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean these in the narrowest sense of their definitions in that Jesus said for us to go forth and the Apostle said to be baptized (with reference to water baptism), so our doing that is an act of obedience. The Holy Ghost baptism is the "cleansing" power that washes away our sin with the blood of Jesus Christ.

I see these two combined in Acts 2:38. I have tried twice now to show why but must not be doing a good job of expressing myself. See what Acts 2:38 says then compare it to the baptism Paul is explaining what happens in Romans 6 in the baptism.

The symbolism in our eye is said to be reality in Gods eye. there fore the two become one as Paul said one baptism one Lord ect. in Eph. 4 Also explains John 3 of being born of Spirit and water. The two baptisms have been joined as one and given Christ name it is the baptism in Christ name both water and spirit.

____________________________________________ __________________________________

If we can agree on these (don't know that we can), then it seems to me that our difference(s) is/are "when is the power of the Holy Ghost baptism imparted unto us?

"when is the power of the Holy Ghost baptism imparted unto us"

The power is where we differ if you call the filling of Acts 2:4 and Acts 10:44 the baptism of the spirit we were promised then I have to disagree from the way Peter recorded it in his Sermon in Acts 2

In Acts two Peter tell us that we receive the promised spirit baptism in the baptism in Christ name it is the promise to all it is the indwelling not the power. We will receive gifts to enable us to carry out our mission but we are not promised all the power the Apostles were given we will relieve as the spirit see fits but we were all promised the indwelling and it is given in the baptism in Christ name.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will answer "Yes" to the above offerings, however without your agreement, they will remain in debate.

We are close but not totally on the same page will need a little fine tuning.

____________________________________________ __________________________________

God bless (hope your wife's surgery went well..............)

Thank you for your prayers yes the wife made it through surgery in flying colors all is fixed just needing to heal so praying now for quick healing.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 19:05:56 »

Ok,

So at least we have agreement on these below:

We have agreed that:

1) Water Baptism is taught in Scripture and is Biblical.
2) That all new Christians should be water Baptized.

Yes we are in total agreement here

Now, can we agree on the following:

1) Jesus commanded that we be water baptized (Yes.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

An we must work on the rest....................

yogi bear · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 19:32:41 »

Yes so far I am with you on the above notes but as said waiting to see where the remaining take us

p.rehbein · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 20:33:40 »

Let's try going through the Scriptures that concern/reference baptism. We can start with the baptism of Jesus.

Scriptures concerning Baptism:
Matthew 3:5-17 “Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, “O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire;

yogi bear · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 21:02:15 »

1. Yes

2. The baptism in Jesus name also gives the spirit that the baptism of John lacked and the cross is added to complete the remission of sins by blood of Christ Paul answered this in Romans 6

3. Jesus meant what he said. He lived under the law at the time and subjected himself to what was required of us to be as us for a brief answer

4. Not sure but one thing is for sure it was a sign to show he was the Messiah but was it the indwelling probably not being that he had not yet been glorified and he had to return to Heave to send the indwelling spirit.

5. Was to fulfill all righteousness

p.rehbein · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon Sep 19, 2011 - 04:48:31 »

1) Were the sins of the people John baptized with water forgiven them?

I agree that their sins were forgiven. This however is the sticking point. Why/how were their sins forgiven? IMO, their sins were forgiven because of their "faith." Just as their fathers before, the prophets, and all the men of God, it was their faith that saved them. The Apostle Paul wrote of this extensively and gave many examples. The 4th, 5th, and 6th Chapters of Romans discusses this "justification by faith." As well, the Apostle Peter speaks to this in the 15th Chapter of Acts, in versus 8 through 11.

If this is true, that as Peter said; "purifying their hearts by faith...," then what purpose was there for the water baptism?
==================================================================================

2) John baptized with water, yet Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire. What does this statement mean concerning how Jesus baptizes?

You may have misunderstood my question here (my fault), so let me be more clear; Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire. What "fire" does He baptize with?

When I read this passage, I go back to the words of John when he said:

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire;

yogi bear · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon Sep 19, 2011 - 10:23:51 »

p.rehbein,
Good questions and they deserve quality time spent on giving a good answer, so when I get time to go deeper into a better answer than I have offered up so far, I will get back to answering these. It is hard to find the time currently with having to take on the extra chores the wife can not do, and waiting on her now that she is down, but I will try to squeeze the time to give these a proper well thought out answer.

yogi bear · « **Reply #21 on:** Mon Sep 19, 2011 - 22:02:20 »

I will try to at least touch on number one tonight.

Let not forget that faith means the faith once delivered also it does not always mean a personal faith but the faith (Gospel of Christ)

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Romans 1:1-6 (KJV)

It is also known that in this teaching of the faith that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is taught as seen in Acts 2 and also Acts 8 and many other places.

It is also seen in Acts that Peter said it is in the baptism in Jesus name that the spirit is given and that is the promise we have of the spirit baptism as he said in verse 39 so it would seem clear that the baptism in Christ name is a spirit baptism in which we are gifted the spirit himself.

That is the faith it is the Gospel of Christ the Gospel of Christ is the faith that purifies our hearts.When we submit to the gospel call God does his work as Paul has said in Romans 6 in the baptism in Christ name.

Ask your self in John we see Jesus baptizing more people than John is ti the baptism in his name is it a spirit baptism No why because he has not yet been glorified. Now jump ahead to Acts 2:38 we see Jesus baptizing in his name and giving the spirit so now it has been completed Jesus is baptizing in water and spirit and now those being save are now being born of water and spirit by the gospel message.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV)

The saving faith is the gospel of Christ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: The righteousness is the teaching from God all the oracles that he has given and teaching that we are to submit to.

I am not sure I gave that my best but tried to at least get a start on this tonight as I am covered up with chores for a while.

yogi bear · « **Reply #22 on:** Mon Sep 19, 2011 - 22:03:05 »

will try for number 2 later more likely tomorrow

p.rehbein · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue Sep 20, 2011 - 07:42:45 »

Yogi, ok, a couple of quick thoughts, and then I'll get into it in more detali this afternoon.

I understand what THE FAITH is, however, let us not forget that we also have faith (personal faith). It is our faith which is displayed by believeing in Jesus which is our saving Grace. We are all saved by Grace, and that a gift from God, not by works. lest any man should boast. And because of our FAITH in Jesus, God imparts this gift unto us, that gift being His saving Grace.

It does not always mean "personal faith," however, it often does mean/referr to our personal faith. Certainly with regards to the Prophets and men of the First Testament, it was THEIR PERSONAL FAITH in God, and one could say the Faith, that secured their salvation through God's Grace. They were personally faithful, in that they did as God asked them to do, and they believed in Him to be faithful to do what He said He would do and that was to deliver them....................keep His covenant with them.

Salvaiton is first, last, and always a "personal" thingy! It is a personal relationship between God and man.

Two, I'm guessing here that when you say Jesus baptized people, you are not meaning that He personally water baptized people, for Jesus did not personally water baptize anyone. His baptism is of the Holy Ghost and Fire, and that through the blood He shed on Calvary's cross. I know you know this, but when one says Jesus "baptized," we gotta be sure we are not speaking of water baptizing. It is a Truth, that Jesus "baptizes" more people than all the people in the world have ever baptized, simply because all who are baptized in His blood for the forgiveness of their sins, are baptized by Him. So, it's kinda a given that He baptized more than John.

Romans 1:16-17 is a good Scripture, but I think you are intermingling the two "faiths" here. The just shall live by faith. We all live by faith and that is our personal faith. One might say our "personal faith" in THE FAITH. Our personal faith in Jesus, our personal faith in God, that He is who He said He is and that He will be faithful to us to do what He said He would do.

Your comment has a tinge of "legalism" to it, and seems to discount the "personal" relationship between man and God.

We may have gotton off track, but let me go back and look at my last comment.......................ok, I see it now:

1) Were the sins of the people John baptized with water forgiven them?

I agree that their sins were forgiven. This however is the sticking point. Why/how were their sins forgiven? IMO, their sins were forgiven because of their "faith." Just as their fathers before, the prophets, and all the men of God, it was their faith that saved them. The Apostle Paul wrote of this extensively and gave many examples. The 4th, 5th, and 6th Chapters of Romans discusses this "justification by faith." As well, the Apostle Peter speaks to this in the 15th Chapter of Acts, in versus 8 through 11.

If this is true, that as Peter said; "purifying their hearts by faith...," then what purpose was there for the water baptism?
======================================

Look at Romans 4:2; "for if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3)For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED (a personal belief) God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4)Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt, 5)But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness."

Versus 13 and 14 also speak to this "personal" faith...................

Now look at the following versus: 20)He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in FAITH (his personal faith), giving glory to God; 21)And being fully persuaded that, what He (God) had promised, He was able to perform. 22)And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23)Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed unto him; 24)But for US ALSO, to whom it shall be imputed, IF WE BELIEVE on Him (our personal faith) that raised up Jesus our Lord and Saviour. 25)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Now Chapter 5, vs. 1: THEREFORE being justified BY FAITH (our personal faith), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2)By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
==========================================
Chapters 4 and 5 weave a teaching of justification by our personal faith all through their versus, and they lead up to Chapter 6, serving as a "basis' for Chapter 6 IMO.

We do a grave disservice to ourselves, and yes, to God, when we try to remove the "PERSONAL" relationship from God's salvation plan. After all, God ESTABLISHED His Salvation Plan BECAUSE He desired a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with us.

================

ok, got a bit carried away there, but will continue.............

hope some of this made sense............

(continuing in prayers for your wife's speed recovery and healing................

)

yogi bear · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue Sep 20, 2011 - 09:03:33 »

Just real quick here I will try to clarify but more likely complicate more.

The Faith and our faith is intertwined it is a must for us to believe the faith but the faith is all the teaching and oracles of God. Meaning like we must believe Acts 2:38 and submit to its teaching or our faith is not what it should be.

We are justified by faith to be sanctified but that faith has to show action.

I am really having trouble expressing my thoughts here not really sure how to say what I am trying to show where I come to my understanding so let me think a while longer on how to word this correctly

p.rehbein · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue Sep 20, 2011 - 11:14:31 »

he needs more time.......sigh........

guess I'll take a

, and hang around

yogi bear · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue Sep 20, 2011 - 15:42:50 »

I think we need to go back and start at Acts 2 it is where the 2 are brought to life and where God adds to the church so we need to get that figured out what is being said there and if we can it will light up all the other passages that follow. I know this is a selfish request but I think that it will make a lot of difference if we can agree what is being said there.

We may have to start at chapter one but with in the two chapters opens all the understanding that will follow. The 4 Gospels lead us to the opening of Acts and from there it unfolds. We may need to go back further what do you think. I do know that Acts 2 is where our age starts and where we are connected in the covenant with God so we should start where it starts.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #27 on:** Thu Sep 22, 2011 - 06:29:59 »

ok, let me do some homework and I'll get back to the Book of Acts...............

p.rehbein · « **Reply #28 on:** Fri Sep 23, 2011 - 06:17:13 »

Yogi said:

I think we need to go back and start at Acts 2 it is where the 2 are brought to life and where God adds to the church so we need to get that figured out what is being said there and if we can it will light up all the other passages that follow. I know this is a selfish request but I think that it will make a lot of difference if we can agree what is being said there.
==============================

So, your saying you want me to tie one hand behind my back and continue the discussion?

OK! However, if we begin with Acts 2:38, then we can't go back to justify it, we need to go FORWARD in the teachings of Peter to justify/understand/clarify it/his teachings.

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost." (KJV)

Acts 2:38 Kefa answered them, "Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh! (CJB)
=================================================

Now, let us look further into the teachings of Peter and try to see what he WAS teaching.............
=================================================

Acts 10:44-48 When Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (KJV)

Acts 10:44-48 Kefa was still saying these things when the Ruach HaKodesh fell on all who were hearing the message. 45 All the believers from the Circumcision faction who had accompanied Kefa were amazed that the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh was also being poured out 46 on the Goyim, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Kefa's response was, 47 "Is anyone prepared to prohibit these people from being immersed in water? After all, they have received the Ruach HaKodesh, just as we did." 48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. Then they asked Kefa to stay on with them for a few days. (CJB)
==============================================

Acts 11:14-18 Who shall then tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, "John indeed baptized with water; but YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost." Forasmuch then as God gave them the like GIFT as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, taht I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (KJV)

Acts 11:14-18 He has a message for you which will enable you and your whole household to be saved.' 15 "But I had hardly begun speaking when the Ruach HaKodesh fell on them, just as on us at the beginning! 16 And I remembered that the Lord had said, 'Yochanan used to immerse people in water, but you will be immersed in the Ruach HaKodesh.' 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as he gave us after we had come to put our trust in the Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who was I to stand in God's way?" 18 On hearing these things, they stopped objecting and began to praise God, saying, "This means that God has enabled the Goyim as well to do t'shuvah and have life!" (CJB)
===================================================

These set of Scriptures are all tied together in what Peter was teaching not only to the Gentiles, but to the Jews who were believers as well. In fact, he was probably more concerned with teaching the Jews this Truth, than the Gentiles!

The GIFT of the Holy Ghost is what Peter was teaching, and as he stated when he REMEMBERED what Jesus the Christ had said, and that being that....................."John indeed baptized with water; but YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost......"

The receiving of the GIFT of the Holy Ghost DOES NOT only come with FIRST being water baptized. These Scriptures make that perfectly clear. Now one can argue that "gift" and "indwelling" are not one in the same, to which I say "FOOEY!"

=====================================================

Now, to be completely clear and fair, I do believe that when a believer obeys the Commandment of Jesus Christ, and is water baptized, HE CAN receive an "infusion" of the Holy Ghost. That being said however, there are many other instances when a believer can receive an "infusion" of the Holy Ghost as well. Receiving the gift (infusion) of the Holy Ghost can COME BEFORE/DURING/AFTER a believer is water baptized.

(ok, not bad for having been limited to one hand,

)

God bless..............

yogi bear · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri Sep 23, 2011 - 08:49:14 »

Just some questions. Why do you have to point all they way to Acts 10 to make your case? Were there not more conversions before then? How many of them can you show happening in this manner?Please show me with BCV. How many conversions after that event can you show me happening in this way? If this is the normal way and not a special event as context hints toward then why did Philip have to wait on the Apostles to impart the gift (power)? Let us reason through those questions.

It is not a hands tie to see from Acts 2 just how God added to the church he made sure he placed it all there for all to see and is no confusion at all it is all laid out right there. We see that what happened in verse 2-4 is power not the indwelling we were promised but that indwelling is promised in verse 38 & 39 yes the two are not the same there is a difference. While it is true we are promised the indwelling we are not promised all power but what the spirit see fit and also note that when power was given to others (rather than the Apostles and Cornelius group) it was done by the laying on of hands not a direct infusion by God but a transfer by laying on of hand is how God did it. It was Power not the indwelling. God gave the indwelling as Peter taught in Acts 2.

It is all there right in Acts chapter 1 and 2 the reason water baptism is in the name of Christ is because he added the cross to it and the giving of the spirit as was prophesied. The baptism in Christ name is a water and spirit baptism where God is transforming us from the old life to the new. It is told in Acts 2 that it is from the baptism in Christ name that God adds to the Church those that are being saved. It is all spelled out right there in Acts 2. Why can we not see that.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #30 on:** Sat Sep 24, 2011 - 10:11:33 »

Following is as complete an account of the Scriptures found in the Book of Acts as I can report. Herein we find the testaments of both water and Holy Ghost baptism. What is perfectly clear from these Scriptures is that water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism are two different things. One an act of obedience, and the other a Gift of God. What is also perfectly clear is that these two baptisms can occur at different times, or in conjunction with one another. It is perfectly clear that the baptism (Gift) of the Holy Ghost is not dependent upon water baptism, nor does being water baptized guarantee the receiving of the Gift (Holy Ghost baptism) of God.
If we are to stablish a Doctrine based on Baptism, we cannot simply extract two versus from the entire teachings of the Book of Acts and say, “Only these two versus are worthy of consideration, and all the others will not be considered.

yogi bear · « **Reply #31 on:** Sat Sep 24, 2011 - 11:50:39 »

Here is where we are then at this point as I can see. We have in Acts 2 the out pouring as prophesied by Joel

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4 (KJV)

First fulfillment of

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. Joel 2:28-32 (KJV)

Now the question is what is this that Peter is talking about it the giving of the spirit for all as promised or is it power to be a witness? According to Acts one it is both one of giving the spirit (comforter=indwelling) and one to be a witnesses(Power).In this case it is speaking of what happened to them and it was the power that the crowd was witnessing but later we see him tell how we can receive this spirit outpouring and it is in baptism in the name of Christ that we receive the spirit.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence Acts 1:5 (KJV) in reference to the spirit baptism all receive the indwelling our part of the out pouring

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV) In reference to the Apostles to be witness the power that is show in Acts 2:4 and context points to only the Apostles got this power

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; Acts 2:14-16 (KJV)

That would be the out pouring of power but they got the indwelling before that remember it is most reasonable that they were baptized with the baptism of John which could not give the spirit because Jesus was not yet glorified but now he is and he gives them the indwelling they were missing

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: John 20:21-22 (KJV)

Acts 2:1-4 is the out pouring of Power on the 12 and Acts 2:38,39 is how we receive the promise of the indwelling spirit.

No where do you see this power poured forth as such while preaching Jesus to the Jews. They already got the out pouring and now receive the indwelling as Peter said in Acts 2:38

The only way we see the power given after the first out pouring on the Jews is by the laying on of hands and it is not the indwelling that is given but the power to be witness to plant churches where the 12 can be free to spread the news.

The only time we see it happen again as seen in acts 2:1-4 is in Acts 10 on Cornelius House where the prophesy of Joel is completed to include all flesh as said.

Even Paul who was chosen by God to be a messenger to the Jews had to go to town to be baptized in the name of Christ.

Paul teaches what is taking place in the water baptism in Christ name in Romans 6 what you see as dry and water is the symbolism God said is wet and is reality.

So yes the holy spirit baptism is talked of and mentioned in reference to power and the indwelling but both are separate and not the same so we have to figure which is which. Do we call the indwelling which is given to all in the same way the spirit baptism that Jesus came to baptize with or do we call the power which was first given direct by God but later transferred through the laying on of hands the spirit baptism that Jesus came to baptize with. One is transferred through laying on of hands while the other is given through the baptism is Jesus name which is clearly a water baptism as seen in Acts 10:47,48

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)

So the question is just hat is the Holy Spirit baptism?? Power or indwelling cause it show to be two different things that relate to that term.

yogi bear · « **Reply #32 on:** Sat Sep 24, 2011 - 12:01:54 »

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)

This brings up another question I had not answered of yours. You had asked could one get the spirit with out the indwelling. The answer is yes this is not a giving of the indwelling spirit himself but a filling to do wonders and witness. It was a witness to to the Jews that God was offering salvation to the Gentiles. We see this same kind of Spirit reaction all through the bible before the indwelling Spirit was given. Peter understood this and is why it was a shock to him the spirit had not been pour out this way since it was on him.That is why he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Christ cause there is no other name under heaven in which one can be saved.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #33 on:** Sun Sep 25, 2011 - 07:13:18 »

Yogi, I will get to your entire comment later on, however, this one statement caught my eye. I have thus far stayed away from this because I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings (those who might be reading/following our discussion), but, you have brought it up, so I must address it now.

You said:

That would be the out pouring of power but they got the indwelling before that remember it is most reasonable that they were baptized with the baptism of John which could not give the spirit because Jesus was not yet glorified but now he is and he gives them the indwelling they were missing

=============================================

Now, we both know there is no record of the Apostles ever being water baptized. To suggest that it is "most reasonable," sounds good, but without Scriptural proof, it is also "most reasonable" to say they may not have been. Who would have baptized them? This also brings up the difference between water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism and the importance of both and the reason for both. We do have Scriptural proof that the Apostles were baptized with the Holy Ghost, but not one word of their being water baptized. Now, it is "most reasonable" to believe that IF water baptism were so very important in the receiving of the Holy Ghost, that God would have MADE SURE that there WAS Scriptural proof of the Apostles being water baptized, after all, the Holy Bible is His Inspired Word. The complete lack of evidence to support the idea that they were water baptized makes it "most reasonable" to believe that the One True Baptism is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

As to the rest of your statement, I'll get back to it this evening or in the morning.

God bless...........................

yogi bear · « **Reply #34 on:** Sun Sep 25, 2011 - 09:56:01 »

p.rehbein,
Yes there is no exact scripture to point to as whether or not the Apostles were water baptized. It is more likely that they were than not and I can show with scripture that it would be.

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Luke 3:3 (KJV)

John came preaching the baptism into repentance and many submitted to it. It does not say who all did but many so I would say that it is possible that John baptized them or one o Johns followers. So that answers your question "Who would have baptized them?"

But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:13-17 (KJV)(side note; He was to filled with Spirit but not talking of the indwelling here)

We know that John did not just dream this up and start teaching it but was special sent by God therefore it is Gods plan not Johns.Jesus came to submit to this baptism not because he needed it in the sense for remission of sin but he needed it to fulfill all righteousness the whole counsel of God. So that leaves us to reason that if Jesus did it to fulfill the righteousness he would have taught his Apostles to do the same. They on the other hand needed it for the reason God placed on it so it would have been more to the reasoning that Jesus would have taught them to do so.

We do not read the following of them either but with correct reasoning know it does not apply to them.

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. Luke 7:29-30 (KJV)

Surely Jesus would not have let them "rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him" one would reason right?

I think reasoning with such scriptures would point out that the Apostles would have been baptized in the baptism of John. Sometimes we just have to reason with what was given but if you insist that they were not baptized with Johns baptism because you have no scripture that says that with out a doubt regardless of the ones that would imply it then we have a problem cause we have no scripture to point to but only reasoning will do and we have to reason with what was provided.

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