Author Topic: Water Baptism/Yogi and p.rehbein (Read 3308 times)

p.rehbein · « **Reply #15 on:** September 18, 2011, 06:05:56 PM »

Ok,

So at least we have agreement on these below:

We have agreed that:

1) Water Baptism is taught in Scripture and is Biblical.
2) That all new Christians should be water Baptized.

Yes we are in total agreement here

Now, can we agree on the following:

1) Jesus commanded that we be water baptized (Yes.)
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An we must work on the rest....................

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #15 on:** September 18, 2011, 06:05:56 PM »

yogi bear · « **Reply #16 on:** September 18, 2011, 06:32:41 PM »

Yes so far I am with you on the above notes but as said waiting to see where the remaining take us

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #16 on:** September 18, 2011, 06:32:41 PM »

p.rehbein · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2011, 07:33:40 PM »

Let's try going through the Scriptures that concern/reference baptism. We can start with the baptism of Jesus.

Scriptures concerning Baptism:
Matthew 3:5-17 “Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, “O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire;

yogi bear · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2011, 08:02:15 PM »

1. Yes

2. The baptism in Jesus name also gives the spirit that the baptism of John lacked and the cross is added to complete the remission of sins by blood of Christ Paul answered this in Romans 6

3. Jesus meant what he said. He lived under the law at the time and subjected himself to what was required of us to be as us for a brief answer

4. Not sure but one thing is for sure it was a sign to show he was the Messiah but was it the indwelling probably not being that he had not yet been glorified and he had to return to Heave to send the indwelling spirit.

5. Was to fulfill all righteousness

p.rehbein · « **Reply #19 on:** September 19, 2011, 03:48:31 AM »

1) Were the sins of the people John baptized with water forgiven them?

I agree that their sins were forgiven. This however is the sticking point. Why/how were their sins forgiven? IMO, their sins were forgiven because of their "faith." Just as their fathers before, the prophets, and all the men of God, it was their faith that saved them. The Apostle Paul wrote of this extensively and gave many examples. The 4th, 5th, and 6th Chapters of Romans discusses this "justification by faith." As well, the Apostle Peter speaks to this in the 15th Chapter of Acts, in versus 8 through 11.

If this is true, that as Peter said; "purifying their hearts by faith...," then what purpose was there for the water baptism?
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2) John baptized with water, yet Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire. What does this statement mean concerning how Jesus baptizes?

You may have misunderstood my question here (my fault), so let me be more clear; Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire. What "fire" does He baptize with?

When I read this passage, I go back to the words of John when he said:

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire;

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #19 on:** September 19, 2011, 03:48:31 AM »

yogi bear · « **Reply #20 on:** September 19, 2011, 09:23:51 AM »

p.rehbein,
Good questions and they deserve quality time spent on giving a good answer, so when I get time to go deeper into a better answer than I have offered up so far, I will get back to answering these. It is hard to find the time currently with having to take on the extra chores the wife can not do, and waiting on her now that she is down, but I will try to squeeze the time to give these a proper well thought out answer.

yogi bear · « **Reply #21 on:** September 19, 2011, 09:02:20 PM »

I will try to at least touch on number one tonight.

Let not forget that faith means the faith once delivered also it does not always mean a personal faith but the faith (Gospel of Christ)

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Romans 1:1-6 (KJV)

It is also known that in this teaching of the faith that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is taught as seen in Acts 2 and also Acts 8 and many other places.

It is also seen in Acts that Peter said it is in the baptism in Jesus name that the spirit is given and that is the promise we have of the spirit baptism as he said in verse 39 so it would seem clear that the baptism in Christ name is a spirit baptism in which we are gifted the spirit himself.

That is the faith it is the Gospel of Christ the Gospel of Christ is the faith that purifies our hearts.When we submit to the gospel call God does his work as Paul has said in Romans 6 in the baptism in Christ name.

Ask your self in John we see Jesus baptizing more people than John is ti the baptism in his name is it a spirit baptism No why because he has not yet been glorified. Now jump ahead to Acts 2:38 we see Jesus baptizing in his name and giving the spirit so now it has been completed Jesus is baptizing in water and spirit and now those being save are now being born of water and spirit by the gospel message.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV)

The saving faith is the gospel of Christ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: The righteousness is the teaching from God all the oracles that he has given and teaching that we are to submit to.

I am not sure I gave that my best but tried to at least get a start on this tonight as I am covered up with chores for a while.

yogi bear · « **Reply #22 on:** September 19, 2011, 09:03:05 PM »

will try for number 2 later more likely tomorrow

p.rehbein · « **Reply #23 on:** September 20, 2011, 06:42:45 AM »

Yogi, ok, a couple of quick thoughts, and then I'll get into it in more detali this afternoon.

I understand what THE FAITH is, however, let us not forget that we also have faith (personal faith). It is our faith which is displayed by believeing in Jesus which is our saving Grace. We are all saved by Grace, and that a gift from God, not by works. lest any man should boast. And because of our FAITH in Jesus, God imparts this gift unto us, that gift being His saving Grace.

It does not always mean "personal faith," however, it often does mean/referr to our personal faith. Certainly with regards to the Prophets and men of the First Testament, it was THEIR PERSONAL FAITH in God, and one could say the Faith, that secured their salvation through God's Grace. They were personally faithful, in that they did as God asked them to do, and they believed in Him to be faithful to do what He said He would do and that was to deliver them....................keep His covenant with them.

Salvaiton is first, last, and always a "personal" thingy! It is a personal relationship between God and man.

Two, I'm guessing here that when you say Jesus baptized people, you are not meaning that He personally water baptized people, for Jesus did not personally water baptize anyone. His baptism is of the Holy Ghost and Fire, and that through the blood He shed on Calvary's cross. I know you know this, but when one says Jesus "baptized," we gotta be sure we are not speaking of water baptizing. It is a Truth, that Jesus "baptizes" more people than all the people in the world have ever baptized, simply because all who are baptized in His blood for the forgiveness of their sins, are baptized by Him. So, it's kinda a given that He baptized more than John.

Romans 1:16-17 is a good Scripture, but I think you are intermingling the two "faiths" here. The just shall live by faith. We all live by faith and that is our personal faith. One might say our "personal faith" in THE FAITH. Our personal faith in Jesus, our personal faith in God, that He is who He said He is and that He will be faithful to us to do what He said He would do.

Your comment has a tinge of "legalism" to it, and seems to discount the "personal" relationship between man and God.

We may have gotton off track, but let me go back and look at my last comment.......................ok, I see it now:

1) Were the sins of the people John baptized with water forgiven them?

I agree that their sins were forgiven. This however is the sticking point. Why/how were their sins forgiven? IMO, their sins were forgiven because of their "faith." Just as their fathers before, the prophets, and all the men of God, it was their faith that saved them. The Apostle Paul wrote of this extensively and gave many examples. The 4th, 5th, and 6th Chapters of Romans discusses this "justification by faith." As well, the Apostle Peter speaks to this in the 15th Chapter of Acts, in versus 8 through 11.

If this is true, that as Peter said; "purifying their hearts by faith...," then what purpose was there for the water baptism?
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Look at Romans 4:2; "for if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3)For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED (a personal belief) God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4)Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt, 5)But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness."

Versus 13 and 14 also speak to this "personal" faith...................

Now look at the following versus: 20)He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in FAITH (his personal faith), giving glory to God; 21)And being fully persuaded that, what He (God) had promised, He was able to perform. 22)And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23)Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed unto him; 24)But for US ALSO, to whom it shall be imputed, IF WE BELIEVE on Him (our personal faith) that raised up Jesus our Lord and Saviour. 25)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Now Chapter 5, vs. 1: THEREFORE being justified BY FAITH (our personal faith), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2)By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
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Chapters 4 and 5 weave a teaching of justification by our personal faith all through their versus, and they lead up to Chapter 6, serving as a "basis' for Chapter 6 IMO.

We do a grave disservice to ourselves, and yes, to God, when we try to remove the "PERSONAL" relationship from God's salvation plan. After all, God ESTABLISHED His Salvation Plan BECAUSE He desired a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with us.

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ok, got a bit carried away there, but will continue.............

hope some of this made sense............

(continuing in prayers for your wife's speed recovery and healing................

)

yogi bear · « **Reply #24 on:** September 20, 2011, 08:03:33 AM »

Just real quick here I will try to clarify but more likely complicate more.

The Faith and our faith is intertwined it is a must for us to believe the faith but the faith is all the teaching and oracles of God. Meaning like we must believe Acts 2:38 and submit to its teaching or our faith is not what it should be.

We are justified by faith to be sanctified but that faith has to show action.

I am really having trouble expressing my thoughts here not really sure how to say what I am trying to show where I come to my understanding so let me think a while longer on how to word this correctly

p.rehbein · « **Reply #25 on:** September 20, 2011, 10:14:31 AM »

he needs more time.......sigh........

guess I'll take a

, and hang around

yogi bear · « **Reply #26 on:** September 20, 2011, 02:42:50 PM »

I think we need to go back and start at Acts 2 it is where the 2 are brought to life and where God adds to the church so we need to get that figured out what is being said there and if we can it will light up all the other passages that follow. I know this is a selfish request but I think that it will make a lot of difference if we can agree what is being said there.

We may have to start at chapter one but with in the two chapters opens all the understanding that will follow. The 4 Gospels lead us to the opening of Acts and from there it unfolds. We may need to go back further what do you think. I do know that Acts 2 is where our age starts and where we are connected in the covenant with God so we should start where it starts.

p.rehbein · « **Reply #27 on:** September 22, 2011, 05:29:59 AM »

ok, let me do some homework and I'll get back to the Book of Acts...............

p.rehbein · « **Reply #28 on:** September 23, 2011, 05:17:13 AM »

Yogi said:

I think we need to go back and start at Acts 2 it is where the 2 are brought to life and where God adds to the church so we need to get that figured out what is being said there and if we can it will light up all the other passages that follow. I know this is a selfish request but I think that it will make a lot of difference if we can agree what is being said there.
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So, your saying you want me to tie one hand behind my back and continue the discussion?

OK! However, if we begin with Acts 2:38, then we can't go back to justify it, we need to go FORWARD in the teachings of Peter to justify/understand/clarify it/his teachings.

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost." (KJV)

Acts 2:38 Kefa answered them, "Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh! (CJB)
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Now, let us look further into the teachings of Peter and try to see what he WAS teaching.............
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Acts 10:44-48 When Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (KJV)

Acts 10:44-48 Kefa was still saying these things when the Ruach HaKodesh fell on all who were hearing the message. 45 All the believers from the Circumcision faction who had accompanied Kefa were amazed that the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh was also being poured out 46 on the Goyim, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Kefa's response was, 47 "Is anyone prepared to prohibit these people from being immersed in water? After all, they have received the Ruach HaKodesh, just as we did." 48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. Then they asked Kefa to stay on with them for a few days. (CJB)
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Acts 11:14-18 Who shall then tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, "John indeed baptized with water; but YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost." Forasmuch then as God gave them the like GIFT as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, taht I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (KJV)

Acts 11:14-18 He has a message for you which will enable you and your whole household to be saved.' 15 "But I had hardly begun speaking when the Ruach HaKodesh fell on them, just as on us at the beginning! 16 And I remembered that the Lord had said, 'Yochanan used to immerse people in water, but you will be immersed in the Ruach HaKodesh.' 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as he gave us after we had come to put our trust in the Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who was I to stand in God's way?" 18 On hearing these things, they stopped objecting and began to praise God, saying, "This means that God has enabled the Goyim as well to do t'shuvah and have life!" (CJB)
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These set of Scriptures are all tied together in what Peter was teaching not only to the Gentiles, but to the Jews who were believers as well. In fact, he was probably more concerned with teaching the Jews this Truth, than the Gentiles!

The GIFT of the Holy Ghost is what Peter was teaching, and as he stated when he REMEMBERED what Jesus the Christ had said, and that being that....................."John indeed baptized with water; but YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost......"

The receiving of the GIFT of the Holy Ghost DOES NOT only come with FIRST being water baptized. These Scriptures make that perfectly clear. Now one can argue that "gift" and "indwelling" are not one in the same, to which I say "FOOEY!"

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Now, to be completely clear and fair, I do believe that when a believer obeys the Commandment of Jesus Christ, and is water baptized, HE CAN receive an "infusion" of the Holy Ghost. That being said however, there are many other instances when a believer can receive an "infusion" of the Holy Ghost as well. Receiving the gift (infusion) of the Holy Ghost can COME BEFORE/DURING/AFTER a believer is water baptized.

(ok, not bad for having been limited to one hand,

)

God bless..............

yogi bear · « **Reply #29 on:** September 23, 2011, 07:49:14 AM »

Just some questions. Why do you have to point all they way to Acts 10 to make your case? Were there not more conversions before then? How many of them can you show happening in this manner?Please show me with BCV. How many conversions after that event can you show me happening in this way? If this is the normal way and not a special event as context hints toward then why did Philip have to wait on the Apostles to impart the gift (power)? Let us reason through those questions.

It is not a hands tie to see from Acts 2 just how God added to the church he made sure he placed it all there for all to see and is no confusion at all it is all laid out right there. We see that what happened in verse 2-4 is power not the indwelling we were promised but that indwelling is promised in verse 38 & 39 yes the two are not the same there is a difference. While it is true we are promised the indwelling we are not promised all power but what the spirit see fit and also note that when power was given to others (rather than the Apostles and Cornelius group) it was done by the laying on of hands not a direct infusion by God but a transfer by laying on of hand is how God did it. It was Power not the indwelling. God gave the indwelling as Peter taught in Acts 2.

It is all there right in Acts chapter 1 and 2 the reason water baptism is in the name of Christ is because he added the cross to it and the giving of the spirit as was prophesied. The baptism in Christ name is a water and spirit baptism where God is transforming us from the old life to the new. It is told in Acts 2 that it is from the baptism in Christ name that God adds to the Church those that are being saved. It is all spelled out right there in Acts 2. Why can we not see that.

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