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Author Topic: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??  (Read 2912 times)

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Offline dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #70 on: Tue Mar 26, 2019 - 18:04:15 »
 And you say that  YES ,  baptism in the  NAME OF JESUS  CHRIST    IS  IN WATER !

 In Acts 19:5  reads  , And having heard this , they were  BAPTIZED  in the name of the Lord  Jesus  !!

 Verse 6 Paul , having   LAID  HANDS  upon them ,  HOLY  SPIRIT  came upon them and they were  speaking  TONGUES  and were  PROPHESYING !!

 Where was the   WATER / HUDOR  here at  all  , there was  NONE !!

 dan p

revc

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #71 on: Tue Mar 26, 2019 - 18:09:03 »
Quote from:  dan p
  So , what does , And this we will do   IF  God  permit  , what do you  believe  it means !!  I will go first !!

THE  Greek words  WILL WE  DO / POIEO  is in the Greek  FUTURE  TENSE , ACTIVE  VOICE and in INDICATIVE  MOOD  !

So why did the  HOLY SPIRIT  use the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE here ??

The  second verb is  PERMIT/EPITREPO  is in the  Greek  PRESENT TENSE  , ACTIVE  VOICE  and in the  SUBJECTIVE  MOOD  !!

 The  SUBJECTIVE  MOOD  controls  verse 3   means God will  permit   OR   will not Permit then !

Sorry Dan, I'm not going any further until you deal with the exposing of your ideas in post #65.  You will not act as if your ideas have not been dealt with and move on to another attempt to circumvent the truth. 

And, don't wast time acting like you know the analytics of Greek words as it is beyond clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. 

RC

Offline dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #72 on: Tue Mar 26, 2019 - 19:01:27 »
And why not correct The  Greek that I have written and be glad to see what your Heb 6:1 and 2  means from your   scholarship view and will listen to your  explanation of Heb 6:1  and 2  !!

 By the way the Greek word in verse 2    BAPTISMOS   just to help you and then check the Greek text  OR  just google it and see !!

 The same Greek word is used in Heb 9:10 where the  KJV  translates   DIVERS  WASHING  the  Greek word  BAPTISMOS !!

 In  Eph 4:5  On Lord  , one  Faith  and one   BAPTISM  and here the  word  BAPTISM is  BAPTISMA  just to give you a different view !!

Hope that you are not angry as I am just presenting what I have seen !!

 dan p

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #73 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 01:38:10 »
Quote
Jaime: #69
GE, Soterion is right. Here is what the text says:

Jaime, Soterion is wrong. Here is what the text says:  ἀπεκρίθη Πέτρος 47Μήτι τὸ ὕδωρ δύναται κωλῦσαί τις τοῦ μὴ βαπτισθῆναι τούτους, οἵτινες τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἔλαβον ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς; “Peter answered / protested: NEITHER water NOR man can forbid that these should be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we. And he commanded them to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

« Last Edit: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 05:55:47 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #74 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 06:05:42 »
Jaime, Soterion is wrong. Here is what the text says:  ἀπεκρίθη Πέτρος 47Μήτι τὸ ὕδωρ δύναται κωλῦσαί τις τοῦ μὴ βαπτισθῆναι τούτους, οἵτινες τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἔλαβον ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς; “Peter answered / protested: NEITHER water NOR man can forbid that these should be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we. And he commanded them to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Once again Ebersohn distorts and corrupts the word of God. 

revc

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #75 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 09:58:44 »
Quote from: dan p
And why not correct The  Greek that I have written and be glad to see what your Heb 6:1 and 2  means from your   scholarship view and will listen to your  explanation of Heb 6:1  and 2  !!

 By the way the Greek word in verse 2    BAPTISMOS   just to help you and then check the Greek text  OR  just google it and see !!

 The same Greek word is used in Heb 9:10 where the  KJV  translates   DIVERS  WASHING  the  Greek word  BAPTISMOS !!

 In  Eph 4:5  On Lord  , one  Faith  and one   BAPTISM  and here the  word  BAPTISM is  BAPTISMA  just to give you a different view !!

Hope that you are not angry as I am just presenting what I have seen !!

Dan, I already went over this in post #65.  I'm not going to do it again.  It is almost funny that you are trying to give instructions in Greek.

I am not angry, but what you think you see is hardly the truth.  I am also waiting for your corrections of my posts in the Theology forum on Col. 2:11-13. 

Now, get with it and go to post #65 here, read it, and deal with the points I made about forsaking faith in God and repentance from dead works.  Those are only two things that fall into the category of things you say need to be forsaken along with baptism. 

RC

revc

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #76 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 10:15:19 »
Quote from:  GE
Jaime, Soterion is wrong. Here is what the text says:  ἀπεκρίθη Πέτρος 47Μήτι τὸ ὕδωρ δύναται κωλῦσαί τις τοῦ μὴ βαπτισθῆναι τούτους, οἵτινες τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἔλαβον ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς; “Peter answered / protested: NEITHER water NOR man can forbid that these should be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we. And he commanded them to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Your “translation” of that text is wrong.  It would be hard to find a worse handling of a text.

“Can any one, then, withhold the water, in order that these be not baptized?”

"The water is any one able to forbid, that these may not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit did receive even as also we?"

It is obvious that neither you nor Dan P has done any study in the precursors to Christian baptism, as in Jewish washings, Greek washings, proselyte baptisms, and the significance of John’s baptism.  Nor have you listened to the testimony of early church history such as the Didache.  Not only is the NT crystal clear that baptism into Christ is done IN water, but early church history shows consistency with NT testimony.  Rather than trying to deny the truth, why not accept it?

Not that I believe it will do any good, but maybe some references to early church writings on baptism will help.  I may do that when time allows. Maybe someone else with more time could do it.  To start, here is one from the Didache, from around 80-140 A.D.  "Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having first said all these things, baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - in living water.  But if you have no living water, baptize into other water."  Hermas, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, the Apostolic Constitutions, and Cyprian will show that the earliest Christians after the apostles passed all practiced baptism in water, and no Christian baptism is known without the employment of water.  Even those who err in infant baptism, and other modes than immersion, still agree that NT baptism uses water.  To deny such is absurd.

RC


Offline soterion

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #77 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 11:00:45 »
dan p,

It seems part of the problem is that you are not understanding that the same root word for baptism is being used in different ways.

For example, βάπτισμα is the singular noun that transliterates into the English word baptism, βαπτισμός is the plural noun that transliterates into the English word baptisms, and βαπτίζω is the verb that transliterates into the English word baptized. It is the same root word being used in every instance, and thus all the words have the same basic root meaning. Now any of those Greek words can be translated into other English words, such as βάπτισμα being translated as the singular nouns washing or cleansing or immersion, βαπτισμός being translated as the plural nouns washings or cleansings or immersions, and βαπτίζω being translated as the verbs wash or cleanse or immerse.

Other spelling differences can exist due to the verb βαπτίζω being used in different tenses, such as aorist, past, etc. It does not mean one use of the verb with a particular spelling has a completely different and unrelated meaning from another use of it with a different spelling; it just means the same verb is being used in a different tense, but both words still having the same root meaning, which is the English verb immerse. We spell verbs differently due to different tenses (immerse or immersed) and so do the Greeks.

One more point about this. The medium, or substance, that a person or thing is being immersed in is determined, not by the Greek noun βάπτισμα or verb βαπτίζω, but by the context where the word is being used. Also, the purpose for the baptism is not determined by the Greek noun or verb, but, again, by the context where the word is found. The entire passage has to tell us what the baptism is and why it is being done. But, nevertheless, the word still has the same root meaning in each use...immerse or immersion.

Another misunderstanding I see is from this quote from your last post on page 1. Referring to Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19, you said the following:

Quote
All can see that Peter used a different formula , be   baptized in the  name of  Jesus Christ ,   THAN  to  baptize in the name of the  FATHER , THE  SON  and  Holy Spirit !!

Those phrases are not formulas. They just describe the reason behind the baptism. The baptism Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-19 is the same one Peter preached in Acts 2:38.

The phrase, "in the name of..." in Matthew 28:19 uses the Greek word εἰς for the English word "in." It would more properly be translated as "into." I read the passage as saying, "into the name of..." I believe this means "into the possession of" the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Those thusly baptized are no longer of the world and no longer belong to the world, but now belong to God.

The phrase, "in the name of..." in Acts 2:38 uses the Greek word "ἐπί" for the English word "in." That Greek word means "on" or "upon." Possession is not being described here, but rather, I believe, it is saying that those being baptized are doing so upon their faith in Jesus. An alternate meaning I have seen is that the baptisms are to be done by the authority of Jesus. Therefore, the passage could read, "upon the name of..." or "by the authority of..." I personally think the use of the phrase in Acts 10:48 points more to those being baptized "...by the authority of Jesus Christ."

Again, these are not formulas that describe different baptisms, nor are they verbal phrases that have to be said out loud; they just tell us what happens at baptism and why people should submit to it.

Hope this helps. ::smile::

Offline soterion

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #78 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 11:08:13 »
Jaime, Soterion is wrong. Here is what the text says:  ἀπεκρίθη Πέτρος 47Μήτι τὸ ὕδωρ δύναται κωλῦσαί τις τοῦ μὴ βαπτισθῆναι τούτους, οἵτινες τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἔλαβον ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς; “Peter answered / protested: NEITHER water NOR man can forbid that these should be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we. And he commanded them to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Where in the world did you get that translation of the text?

Is it from some obscure translation, or did you come up with it yourself? Either way, it is a clear case of confirmation bias.

Nobody would come up with the idea that Peter was specifically forbidding water...if water never had anything to do with baptism in the name of Jesus to start with, and especially not with regards to Gentile converts. The translation wording is specifically designed to find a way to negate the use of water, although the context of the situation argues the opposite.

I'll stick with the correct wording of the text. The more accurate translations are completely in line with the context and agree with Peter that water should not be forbidden to those seeking to obey Jesus.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #79 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 12:00:01 »
Quote
Soterion#78
Where in the world did you get that translation of the text?
Is it from some obscure translation, or did you come up with it yourself? Either way, it is a clear case of confirmation bias.
The clear source is the literal Text. I underlined the main words. You may further consult any Greek Grammar or Lexicon or something. I'm a bit too far to take your hand or lend you my magnifying glass.

The clear case of confirmed bias though cannot be missed; the KJ translators were all water-baptism biased.

revc

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #80 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 13:36:28 »
Quote from: GE
Quote

    Soterion#78
    Where in the world did you get that translation of the text?
    Is it from some obscure translation, or did you come up with it yourself? Either way, it is a clear case of confirmation bias.

The clear source is the literal Text. I underlined the main words. You may further consult any Greek Grammar or Lexicon or something. I'm a bit too far to take your hand or lend you my magnifying glass.

The clear case of confirmed bias though cannot be missed; the KJ translators were all water-baptism biased.

Why don't YOU to point to the Grammar and/or lexicon that backs up your personal (mis)rendering of the Greek here.  Your source is not the text, for it in no way justifies your translation.  The correct rendering is "Is anyone able to forbid the water that these should not be immersed...". 

Let me know the page number when you get them so I can look at the data, if I have the Grammar and lexicons you have.  I only have 5 Grammars and 5 or 6 lexicons.  I hope we have the same data to compare.

RC

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #81 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 14:24:33 »
You gave a good remonstrance. I would only ask, on what grounds do you base your assumption of this baptism to be a water-baptism? I do not find the element of water physically necessary or of spiritual benefit for the spiritual truth of the physical resurrection.
"I would only ask, on what grounds do you base your assumption of this baptism to be a water-baptism?"~Sir, it's more than an assumption, it flows with the context, which drive the interpretation of the context. Scriptures taken out of context and built a doctrine on, is nothing more than a pretext (a purpose or motive alleged or an appearance assumed in order to cloak the real intention or, better...... truth. ) Paul used water baptism and that which said to the eyes what the gospel does to the ears of man, that we BELIEVE in a future resurrection unto eternal life. Water baptism was one of the arguments (one of the main one) of exposing the folly of many that said that there was NO RESURRECTION of the dead~1st Cor. 15:12,13~

It makes little difference whatever other sense one desires to put upon baptism for the dead the context will not support it, not even remotely support it. Water baptism is the only sense that flows with the context and context is Lord and Master, of biblical truth~and truly of ANY understanding that a person is seeking to understand in books, conversation, etc. etc.
Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn Reply #62 on: Sun Mar 24, 2019 - 11:38:08
I do not find the element of water physically necessary.....
Sir, just because you personally do not find the element H2O in 1st Cor. 15 proves not one thing unless you can take the context and prove otherwise, then and only then would you have a valid argument, which so far you have none and neither does Dan.
Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn Reply #62 on: Sun Mar 24, 2019 - 11:38:08
or of spiritual benefit
Water Baptism has many spiritual benefits~besides the fact that it is commanded, it is the first step in enjoying a practical saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and his gospel~even though much more knowledge is there for the diligent seeker of truth.
Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn Reply #62 on: Sun Mar 24, 2019 - 11:38:08
for the spiritual truth of the physical resurrection
Tell me sir, what doctrine in all of the word of God clearly teach of a future resurrection~one that was secured by Christ for us? There is none~I know not of any....and neither do you or Dan. When we come to Christ and confess him before men, we submit to all that the scriptures teach us of him and show it by our obedience in being baptized into his religion by which baptism we are confessing that we believe in a future resurrection unto eternal life in the world to come. 

Sir, what puts one INTO CHRIST according to Romans 6? Water baptism which we have an active part in. Your so-called Spirit Baptism I have never seen in the scriptures~if you think 1st Cor. 12 teaches that then my answer to you is this.....prove it. I know many godly people believe that and I was taught that when I first came to Christ, but seeking truth from the scriptures, I came to realized that it is NOT there but it is forced into the scriptures by men who cannot rightly divide the scriptures on WATER BAPTISM! Selah
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 14:29:40 by RB »

Offline soterion

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #82 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 15:18:18 »
The clear source is the literal Text. I underlined the main words. You may further consult any Greek Grammar or Lexicon or something. I'm a bit too far to take your hand or lend you my magnifying glass.

The clear case of confirmed bias though cannot be missed; the KJ translators were all water-baptism biased.

You should look again at the rest of my post you quoted from. I'll post it again:

Quote
Nobody would come up with the idea that Peter was specifically forbidding water...if water never had anything to do with baptism in the name of Jesus to start with, and especially not with regards to Gentile converts. The translation wording is specifically designed to find a way to negate the use of water, although the context of the situation argues the opposite.

I'll stick with the correct wording of the text. The more accurate translations are completely in line with the context and agree with Peter that water should not be forbidden to those seeking to obey Jesus.

To rephrase, your wording of the text would have Peter making it a point to argue against the use of water for baptism. That makes zero sense, if water was never to have anything to do with it anyway. Just the mention of water tells us that water was expected to be accessed and utilized for it. That can only make sense if immersion in water was the regular practice up to this point by Peter and the rest. The events of Acts 10 are somewhere around 7-10 years after Acts 2. The timeline and the context and the wording of the text all call for water immersion in the name of Jesus Christ.

In addition, Peter's later mention of baptism in 1 Peter 3 includes the reminder that it is not the cleansing affect of the water that is of value for those receiving baptism. The value of it, its salvific affect, is found in the faith of those being baptized as they call on God for a clean conscience. His teaching in the letter is that, while it is water immersion, it is the faith of the recipient that saves, not the water itself.

Any translation that specifically tries to remove the water from baptism in Acts 10 is totally ignoring the context in favor of a false doctrine.

Offline dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #83 on: Wed Mar 27, 2019 - 17:47:44 »
 And here is my  interpretation  of  Col 2:12  reads Having been   BURIED  TOGETHER  WITH  Him is the  BAPTISMA   or by the  BAPTIZER  , which is the  Holy  Spirit  !!

 Notice Matt 3:7  which speaks of  John  ,   uses the  Greek  word  BAPTISTES /  BAPTIZER  !

 Also in Rom 6:4  reads  , therefore ,  WE WERE  BURIED  TOGETHER WITH  through this  BAPTISMA   (  which is the  HOLY SPIRIT   BAPTIZER ) .

 dan p

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #84 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 05:40:14 »
And here is my  interpretation  of  Col 2:12  reads Having been   BURIED  TOGETHER  WITH  Him is the  BAPTISMA   or by the BAPTIZER, which is the  Holy  Spirit  !!

 Notice Matt 3:7  which speaks of  John  ,   uses the  Greek  word  BAPTISTES /  BAPTIZER  !

 Also in Rom 6:4  reads  , therefore ,  WE WERE  BURIED  TOGETHER WITH  through this  BAPTISMA   (  which is the  HOLY SPIRIT   BAPTIZER ) .
One thing you said correctly~here is my interpretation~ Dan, it is your own private intrepreation, for the context will never give you any support. Starting with Col. 2:12 you corrupt what Paul said in order to continue your rebellious spirit toward the teachings of the word of God concerning water baptism, an NT teaching that beautifully picture forth the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, wherein our legal justification comes from, and a promise of our future resurrection from the dead.
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 2:10-13~"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
Without spending much time with these scriptures, I will for now only add this: The Holy Ghost used the word in showing us clearly what baptism Paul is speaking about~it is not as you desire~Baptized by the BAPTIZER, which destroys the picture of what baptism shows forth, and the answer of a good conscience by those that are baptized, which Peter said the ordinance of baptism does. Dan, in our water baptism we confess that we were with/in CHRIST and with him when HE arose from the dead through the faith of the operation of God, who did raised him from the dead~ "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses." The elect of God have always been in Christ from eternity past in the eternal purposes of God; practically we were IN CHRIST while he lived in this world; legally we were IN CHRIST when he died and was resurrected~See also Ephesians 2:1-8...our WATER BAPTISM is what connects these blessed truths that are taught in the word of God. Colossians 2 and Ephesians two are very closely connected~Netither of which teach baptism by the Spirit!
Quote from: Paul
Romans 6:1-6~"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Which is what 1st Corinthians 15:29 teaches~RB) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Dan, these scriptures are self-explanatory and need little commentary on these though I did a little by highlighting. It is impossible for your Spirit Baptism" portray a likeness of planting and a likeness of a resurrection~impossible.

I could add more, but enough for now. You have not done enough to prove your strange doctrine.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 08:49:49 by RB »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #85 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 07:05:52 »
Quote from: dan p
And here is my  interpretation  of  Col 2:12  reads Having been   BURIED  TOGETHER  WITH  Him is the  BAPTISMA   or by the  BAPTIZER  , which is the  Holy  Spirit  !!
 Notice Matt 3:7  which speaks of  John  ,   uses the  Greek  word  BAPTISTES /  BAPTIZER  !
 Also in Rom 6:4  reads  , therefore ,  WE WERE  BURIED  TOGETHER WITH  through this  BAPTISMA   (  which is the  HOLY SPIRIT   BAPTIZER ) .

Sorry Dan, but your interpretation is worthless, as it is not based on the actual language of the text, as usual.  Why do you insist on attempting to pass yourself off as knowing what the Greek says and means when it is blatantly obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about?  The fact is - you cannot propose interpretation until you show meaning.  You need to translate the actual words of the text.  You have yet to do that.  There is no sense trying to run to Matt. 3:7 to try to make the Holy Spirit the baptizer when that idea is not even in Col. 2:12.  If the idea was there there would be some word, or words, that indicate such.  But there isn't. 

You are doing what others here do.  You are inserting your ideas into the text (eisegesis) and consequently trying to put words into the text that aren't there.   We must only go by the words that are there, their meanings, and their applications. 

Now, post #65 is STILL waiting for your attention, and the 3 posts I made on Col. 2:11-13 are still waiting for your analysis. 

RC

Offline soterion

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #86 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 08:50:25 »
And here is my  interpretation  of  Col 2:12  reads Having been   BURIED  TOGETHER  WITH  Him is the  BAPTISMA   or by the  BAPTIZER  , which is the  Holy  Spirit  !!

 Notice Matt 3:7  which speaks of  John  ,   uses the  Greek  word  BAPTISTES /  BAPTIZER  !

 Also in Rom 6:4  reads  , therefore ,  WE WERE  BURIED  TOGETHER WITH  through this  BAPTISMA   (  which is the  HOLY SPIRIT   BAPTIZER ) .

 dan p

dan p,

We don't have to go to the Greek to see that the Holy Spirit is not the baptizer.

In Acts 2:38 we read, "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The gift of the Holy Spirit is given after the reception of the remission of sins. I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit Himself given to those cleansed of sins. In Acts 5:32 we read, "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him." The Spirit is not given to those still unclean and guilty of sin; He is given to indwell those cleansed and forgiven.

When reading Colossians 2:12, take verses 11 and 13 into account. The circumcision of Christ takes place at baptism. It results in our being made alive together with him and being forgiven of all our trespasses.

Your interpretation of Colossians 2:12 would have the forgiveness of sins take place by the giving of the Spirit, rather than the Spirit given after the forgiveness of sins.

You've got it backwards when you make the Spirit the baptizer. The baptizer, that which affects the circumcision of Christ, is the cross of Christ and His bearing our sins in His body (Romans 6:6; 1 Peter 2:24).

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #87 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 09:07:18 »
Notice Matt 3:7  which speaks of  John  ,   uses the  Greek  word  BAPTISTES /  BAPTIZER  !
Dan, let us look at Matthew 3 and consider John's baptism and God's (the Spirit) baptism.
Quote from: John the Baptist
Matthew 3:6-12~"And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Dan, there are two different baptisms in these scriptures~one with water that John the Baptist did with those who came to him bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance; the other is one by Christ, and it is with FIRE, and this baptism will take place in the LAKE of fire in that day~John clearly said:
Quote from: John the Baptist
"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire"
This baptism will take place when wicked shall be cast into the lake of fire when this world is destroyed by fire in that day of the final judgment. 2nd Peter 3:10-14; Revelation 20:11-15
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 16:20:54 by RB »

Offline dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #88 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 13:25:32 »
 And in Acts  1:5  , what the phrase  But you will be  BAPTIZED   with Holy Spirit  not many of these days  after , mean ?

 Who  BAPTIZED WITH  HOLY  SPIRIT ??

 In Acts Be  baptized in the   name of Jesus  Christ  , and you will receive the  GIFT  of the  Holy  Spirit  and the  verb YOU WILL  RECEIVE / LAMBANO   is in the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE  , MIDDLE  VOICE and Indicative Mood !

The  FUTURE TENSE   than means  Acts 2 :38  DID  NOT  HAPPEN   during Peters  time ,  and the  Greek  Middle  Voice  means that the  SUBJECT  Peter never  participate in that  Baptism  and the  INDICATIVE  MOOD  means it is a  FACT !

dan p

Offline soterion

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #89 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 13:44:47 »
And in Acts  1:5  , what the phrase  But you will be  BAPTIZED   with Holy Spirit  not many of these days  after , mean ?

 Who  BAPTIZED WITH  HOLY  SPIRIT ??

 In Acts Be  baptized in the   name of Jesus  Christ  , and you will receive the  GIFT  of the  Holy  Spirit  and the  verb YOU WILL  RECEIVE / LAMBANO   is in the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE  , MIDDLE  VOICE and Indicative Mood !

The  FUTURE TENSE   than means  Acts 2 :38  DID  NOT  HAPPEN   during Peters  time ,  and the  Greek  Middle  Voice  means that the  SUBJECT  Peter never  participate in that  Baptism  and the  INDICATIVE  MOOD  means it is a  FACT !

dan p

dan p,

The Future Tense means it will take place after the preceding event (repent and be baptized for the remission of sins). It just means future to the repentance and baptism. It can happen two nano seconds after baptism. There is nothing in the context to tell us that the future receiving is a long time after the repentance and baptism.

The Middle Voice in "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" does not mean that Peter had nothing to do with the baptism. The Middle Voice you are referring to applies to receiving of the gift, not to the baptism.

The Indicative Mood just means that it is a statement. A falsehood can be stated in the Indicative Mood. People do it on this site all the time. ::smile::

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #90 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 16:38:55 »
And in Acts  1:5 , what the phrase  But you will be  BAPTIZED   with Holy Spirit  not many of these days  after , mean ? Who  BAPTIZED WITH  HOLY  SPIRIT ??
Answer: Jesus Christ administered the baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, when He poured out the Holy Ghost in superabundance upon the 120, inundating and immersing them in His glorious Presence.

John the Baptist specifically prophesied the baptism with the Holy Ghost (Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16; John 1:33). Jesus specifically prophesied the baptism with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5). It was to be an event taking place a few days after our Lord's ascension.

The baptism occurred on the Day of Pentecost, just as Jesus had prophesied ten days earlier (Acts 2:1-4).

The Person of the Holy Ghost filled the place where they were assembled, and they were immersed, buried, and covered with His glorious Presence.

Peter understood that the giving of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost and to Cornelius fulfilled the prophecy of the baptism with the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:15-18).

The baptism of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost fulfilled the prophecy of Joel about the pouring out of God's Spirit in the last days (Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:16-21).

The visible evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost were miraculous signs and wonders, which were to last the prophesied period of the true reformation period spoken of in Hebrews from going from OT to NT worship! (Micah 7:15; Ist Cor 13:8-13; Acts 2:20-21; Ist Tim 5:23).

During the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10; Luke 16:16), which corresponds precisely to that time period of miracles, the baptism with the Holy Ghost was sometimes not associated with water baptism (Acts 2:1-4; 8:14-20; 10:44-47; 19:5-7) in order to reveal the will of God and exalt apostolic authority concerning them preaching Jesus Christ as King of the Israel of God.

But sincere and true baptism is the general condition for receiving the New Testament Presence of the Holy Ghost (John 7:39; Acts 2:38-39; Eph 1:13-14; Gal 3:14).
Quote from: Peter
Acts 2:38~"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The sense is this: In WATER baptism which is the beginning of the MEANS of our true practical knowledge of the truth~when such a person is baptized properly by immersion, they receive the KNOWLEDGE of the gift of the Spirit of God, that they have ALREADY in them, yet unaware of his power and his willingness to empower them in the service of the kingdom of God....this come THROUGH being properly baptized INTO Jesus Christ.

Offline dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #91 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 16:40:34 »
  Here is why I believe that it was  FUTURE TENSE  !!

 In Acts 3:18 it reminds us that God has  annoumced by the  mouth of His  prophets that  Christ was to   SUFFER  , He has  fulfilled !!

Verse 19 is telling us all the Israel is to  repent , so that the  TIMES  of  refreshing may  come ,

 We know from Isa 6 and  Luke 13:6-9  and  2  Cor 3:13-16  that Israel was to be set aside and Israel   NEVER  repented !!

 I Acts 3:20 and if they did repent , And he may send  Jesus Christ , the  One having been  PROCLAIMED    BEFORE  TO YOU   and Israel  never did  REPENT   and thsi is why Acts 2:38  is in the Greek  FUTURE  TENSE !!

 dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #92 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 17:42:50 »
  Here is why I believe that it was  FUTURE TENSE  !!

 In Acts 3:18 it reminds us that God has  annoumced by the  mouth of His  prophets that  Christ was to   SUFFER  , He has  fulfilled !!

Verse 19 is telling us all the Israel is to  repent , so that the  TIMES  of  refreshing may  come ,

 We know from Isa 6 and  Luke 13:6-9  and  2  Cor 3:13-16  that Israel was to be set aside and Israel   NEVER  repented !!

 I Acts 3:20 and if they did repent , And he may send  Jesus Christ , the  One having been  PROCLAIMED    BEFORE  TO YOU   and Israel  never did  REPENT   and thsi is why Acts 2:38  is in the Greek  FUTURE  TENSE !!

 dan p

There are two things you need to consider.

1. In Acts 3:26, Peter tells them that the Messiah has been sent and that those people are blessed by His turning them away from their sins. Many in that day and time repented of their sins and turned to Jesus (Acts 4:4, for example). Peter's message there is basically that the proclamations of the prophets, including the promise given to Abraham quoted in verse 25, have been fulfilled.

2. If He has not yet been sent, if Acts 2:38 is not yet fulfilled, then forgiveness in His name is not yet available...to anybody, including you and me. ::sarcasm::

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #93 on: Thu Mar 28, 2019 - 17:55:08 »
  And if  Acts 2:38  is  NOT  in  operation , do you mean we can  not  be  saved ?

 Do you believe that Mark 16:16  is  water  baptism  ?

 If it is  , did the  sign of verses 17 and 18  , also in operation  , TODAY  ??

dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #94 on: Fri Mar 29, 2019 - 02:23:58 »
Quote
RB: #90
Quote from: dan p on Yesterday at 13:25:32
And in Acts  1:5 , what the phrase  But you will be  BAPTIZED   with Holy Spirit  not many of these days  after , mean ? Who  BAPTIZED WITH  HOLY  SPIRIT ??
Answer: Jesus Christ administered the baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, when He poured out the Holy Ghost in superabundance upon the 120, inundating and immersing them in His glorious Presence.

John the Baptist specifically prophesied the baptism with the Holy Ghost (Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16; John 1:33). Jesus specifically prophesied the baptism with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5). It was to be an event taking place a few days after our Lord's ascension.

The baptism occurred on the Day of Pentecost, just as Jesus had prophesied ten days earlier (Acts 2:1-4).

The Person of the Holy Ghost filled the place where they were assembled, and they were immersed, buried, and covered with His glorious Presence.

Peter understood that the giving of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost and to Cornelius fulfilled the prophecy of the baptism with the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:15-18).

The baptism of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost fulfilled the prophecy of Joel about the pouring out of God's Spirit in the last days (Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:16-21).

The visible evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost were miraculous signs and wonders, which were to last the prophesied period of the true reformation period spoken of in Hebrews from going from OT to NT worship! (Micah 7:15; Ist Cor 13:8-13; Acts 2:20-21; Ist Tim 5:23).

During the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10; Luke 16:16), which corresponds precisely to that time period of miracles, the baptism with the Holy Ghost was sometimes not associated with water baptism (Acts 2:1-4; 8:14-20; 10:44-47; 19:5-7) in order to reveal the will of God and exalt apostolic authority concerning them preaching Jesus Christ as King of the Israel of God.

But sincere and true baptism is the general condition for receiving the New Testament Presence of the Holy Ghost (John 7:39; Acts 2:38-39; Eph 1:13-14; Gal 3:14).
Quote from: Peter
Acts 2:38~"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The sense is this: In WATER baptism which is the beginning of the MEANS of our true practical knowledge of the truth~when such a person is baptized properly by immersion, they receive the KNOWLEDGE of the gift of the Spirit of God, that they have ALREADY in them, yet unaware of his power and his willingness to empower them in the service of the kingdom of God....this come THROUGH being properly baptized INTO Jesus Christ.

I don't understand the above, the last paragraph <The sense is this: In WATER.....> completely contradicting and nullifying the foregoing.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 29, 2019 - 02:32:15 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

revc

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #95 on: Fri Mar 29, 2019 - 06:41:14 »
Quote from: RB
Quote from: Peter

    Acts 2:38~"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The sense is this: In WATER baptism which is the beginning of the MEANS of our true practical knowledge of the truth~when such a person is baptized properly by immersion, they receive the KNOWLEDGE of the gift of the Spirit of God, that they have ALREADY in them, yet unaware of his power and his willingness to empower them in the service of the kingdom of God....this come THROUGH being properly baptized INTO Jesus Christ.

Not one bit of that "sense" is found in that verse nor in the rest of scripture.  "Already in them" is excluded by the future ληψεσθε = you shall receive.  Dan P might be wrong on a lot of this, but at least he can see that "shall receive" cannot equate to "already have it."  Soterion hit it on the mark that the reception of the Holy Spirit is future to the actions of repentance and baptism.  My notes posted on Col. 2:11-12 discuss other things synchronous to baptism, such as circumcision of the body of sins away and being raised with Christ.  There are no spiritual blessings and salvation prior to baptism into Christ for remission of sins.

Dan p would be even more confused than he is if he were to listen to you. 

RC

Offline soterion

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #96 on: Fri Mar 29, 2019 - 07:00:36 »
  And if  Acts 2:38  is  NOT  in  operation , do you mean we can  not  be  saved ?

The events that led up to Acts 2:38 to make forgiveness of sins possible (Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, pouring out of the Spirit) and to make Peter's message of this salvation true (Jesus was unjustly killed and is now risen and is Lord and Christ) means that if it the gift of the Holy Spirit is not yet available upon repentance and baptism, then forgiveness through the death and resurrection of Jesus is not yet available.

Quote
Do you believe that Mark 16:16  is  water  baptism  ?

 If it is  , did the  sign of verses 17 and 18  , also in operation  , TODAY  ??

dan p

Yes, I believe Jesus commanded the administration of water immersion for those who believe the gospel. Every time, when we read of baptism being commanded to be administered or obeyed, and the medium being immersed into is mentioned, it is always water.

Whether or not a person believes the signs of verses 17 and 18 are in operation today doesn't make any difference to what the immersion medium is in verses 15-16. If I say "yes," the baptism is still in water; if I say "no," the baptism is still in water.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #97 on: Fri Mar 29, 2019 - 07:19:32 »
Not one bit of that "sense" is found in that verse nor in the rest of scripture.
It most certianly is, and by the fact that you cannot see this, proves to me that you are fulfilling the words of Christ when you try to teach Dan.....
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 15:13,14~"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
People like you are nothing more than a plant that God has not planted~a blind leader of the blind!

I say this based upon the biblical truth that RENEGERATION must proceed seeing, hearing, and obeying~and at the very second one is quickened to life by the Spirit of God, then that person HAS the indwelling Spirit, for, without the Spirit, man is unable to hear the words of God.

John chapter three, which I have dealt with many times over supports this heavenly truth, and a truth that unregenerate men hate and fights against.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:3~"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Your gospel contradicts Jesus' teachings, this should concern you, but I'm sure your pride will not allow it to convict your prideful/hard conscience against this truth.

Scriptures interpret scriptures, not as you believe that truth can only come by knowing the Greek, which if that were so, then the Greek people should have a corner on the truth~but truth is understood by spiritual minded children of God by the Spirit teaching them!
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:13-16~"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

revc

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #98 on: Fri Mar 29, 2019 - 09:27:42 »
Quote from: RB
Quote from: revc on Today at 06:41:14

    Not one bit of that "sense" is found in that verse nor in the rest of scripture.

It most certianly is, and by the fact that you cannot see this, proves to me that you are fulfilling the words of Christ when you try to teach Dan.....

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST

    Matthew 15:13,14~"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

People like you are nothing more than a plant that God has not planted~a blind leader of the blind!

I say this based upon the biblical truth that RENEGERATION must proceed seeing, hearing, and obeying~and at the very second one is quickened to life by the Spirit of God, then that person HAS the indwelling Spirit, for, without the Spirit, man is unable to hear the words of God.

John chapter three, which I have dealt with many times over supports this heavenly truth, and a truth that unregenerate men hate and fights against.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST

    John 3:3~"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Your gospel contradicts Jesus' teachings, this should concern you, but I'm sure your pride will not allow it to convict your prideful/hard conscience against this truth.

Scriptures interpret scriptures, not as you believe that truth can only come by knowing the Greek, which if that were so, then the Greek people should have a corner on the truth~but truth is understood by spiritual minded children of God by the Spirit teaching them!

Quote from: Paul

    1st Corinthians 2:13-16~"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

More evidence of your disregard of truth.  There isn't even one thing in that tirade that is true except where you copied and pasted the word of God.  Your takes on His word are totally false when it comes to salvation. We could also throw in the insane idea that you somehow have insight that is right despite its glaring contradiction to facts.  Your hatred for language continues to blind you to the truth.  You have been shown to be wrong every time you try to prove your false gospel, yet you continue on. "How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?" (Proverbs 1:22)

The idiocy of this statement is beyond the pale - "you believe that truth can only come by knowing the Greek."  Attainment of truth comes by seeking it.  You run from truth, for some reason that totally escapes me.  The points made by anyone based in Greek are just a part of the whole body of God's revealed truth.  What kind of mind denies and runs from truth and fact?  Your kind.

RC

Offline dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #99 on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 13:11:45 »
 And we see from Heb 6:1 and 2  that  WATER  BAPTISM  is to be  FORSAKEN  !

 In  Heb 1:1  we are to   LEAVE / APHIEMI   means to    DEPART  , TO  LET  GO  , FORSAKE and from verses 1-2  is a list of 6  things to   

FORSAKE  and one is the Doctrine of  BAPTISMS and how will you explain this  ??

 dan p

Offline soterion

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #100 on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 13:49:20 »
And we see from Heb 6:1 and 2  that  WATER  BAPTISM  is to be  FORSAKEN  !

 In  Heb 1:1  we are to   LEAVE / APHIEMI   means to    DEPART  , TO  LET  GO  , FORSAKE and from verses 1-2  is a list of 6  things to   

FORSAKE  and one is the Doctrine of  BAPTISMS and how will you explain this  ??

 dan p

Look at the verses again. Here are the six things that the Hebrew writer listed:

1. Repentance from dead works
2. Faith toward God
3. The teaching of baptisms
4. Laying on of hands
5. Resurrection of the dead
6. Eternal judgment

Since you are saying the passage teaches to forsake baptism, then you would have to say that the passage teaches to forsake everything on that list. Are you suggesting we are to forsake repentance from dead works? Or perhaps we are to forsake faith toward God? Maybe we should forsake teachings on the resurrection of the dead?

If you are suggesting the word "forsake" in that context means something like "get rid of, or ignore, or reject as false," then you have it all wrong.

The Hebrew writer is admonishing his readers for not being well established in those doctrines so that they can move on to more meaty matters. They are still having to work on that foundation when they should have moved on to build on those first principles to other issues, including especially application. Application of the doctrines is what helps a person to "press on to perfection."

You see, I hope, that those doctrines are not to be "forsaken," in some negative sense, but rather they are to be "left behind" in the sense that those doctrines are well established principles to be built on as a foundation, for the strengthening of the body. They are to be "left off" so that they don't have to be relearned over and over and the people fail to move on to perfection.

This might be a lesson for us all. ::preachit::

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #101 on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 14:33:25 »
Hi and in Heb 6:4 and in 6  IF  they were  ENLIGHTENETH .PHOTIZO  , verse 4   and were made   PARTAKERS  of the  HOLY  SPIRIT  , and in verse 5  have   TASTED the  good  word of  God  ,    IF  THEY  FALL  AWAY  , (  ISRAEL ,  RIGHT  )    IF THEY   FALL  AWAY    TO  RENEW  THEM  AGAIN  TO  REPENTANCE !!

This is why I believe Hebrews  was  written to  Israel !!

dan p

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #102 on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 17:08:34 »
Hi and in Heb 6:4 and in 6  IF  they were  ENLIGHTENETH .PHOTIZO  , verse 4   and were made   PARTAKERS  of the  HOLY  SPIRIT  , and in verse 5  have   TASTED the  good  word of  God  ,    IF  THEY  FALL  AWAY  , (  ISRAEL ,  RIGHT  )    IF THEY   FALL  AWAY    TO  RENEW  THEM  AGAIN  TO  REPENTANCE !!

This is why I believe Hebrews  was  written to  Israel !!

dan p
It was written to Hebrew Christians.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ??
« Reply #103 on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 18:03:37 »
And where is that verse that says , HEBREWS  CHRISTIAN  are part of thr  Body  of  Christ  ?

 The  word  CHRISTIAN / CHRISTIANOS   in the  Greek just means a  follower  !!

 dan p