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I’m going to poke the sacred cow with this question.  As Americans, this concept is deeply ingrained into our patriotic subconscious.  The nation was founded with this freedom, and the saints, for the most part, have enjoyed unheard-of opportunities because of it.

But think of this from God’s perspective.  A certain “Freedom of religion” throughout all of history has meant that men have been granted a choice of picking whatever made-up deity they have been pleased to invent, combined with whatever abominable practices they have selected to honor those false gods.  Child sacrifice...ritual prostitution...worship of devils...genocide...wars...you name it, these evils have all been done in the name of religion. 

My contention is that when God draws human history to a close, this “freedom of religion” that God has permitted (but not approved) will be finally purged from the planet so that the single, unadulterated worship of God will stand alone without any idolatrous competition.

Freedom of religion is not all that it’s cracked up to be, when put in the hands of sinful men.  As long as we are in this condition, it inevitably becomes a corrupted means of further expressing that sinfulness.  Fortunately, as Paul said, “The Spirit of God is not bound.”  True and absolute freedom of religion is found there and nowhere else.

Yes or no anybody?

My contention is that when God draws human history to a close, this “freedom of religion” that God has permitted (but not approved) will be finally purged from the planet so that the single, unadulterated worship of God will stand alone without any idolatrous competition.

But that purging will not be the result of the lack of freedom of religion.  It will be because those who are there have freely chosen God.

But think of this from God’s perspective.  A certain “Freedom of religion” throughout all of history has meant that men have been granted a choice of picking whatever made-up deity they have been pleased to invent, combined with whatever abominable practices they have selected to honor those false gods.  Child sacrifice...ritual prostitution...worship of devils...genocide...wars...you name it, these evils have all been done in the name of religion. 

That God despises the choice of religions that some have made does not mean that he is against the freedom to choose.  That after all is a primary reason for the creation of this world to begin with, namely, to build of body of believers, believers who freely choose God. Jesus declared that He would build His church; what is His church but the body of those who have freely chosen to obey the gospel. 

Freedom of religion is not all that it’s cracked up to be, when put in the hands of sinful men. 

Freedom of religion was established as the First Amendment in the Constitution of the United States of America; and that by sinful men. I doubt that there was a single founder that would argue that he was not sinful.

Yes or no anybody?

Absolutely YES.

Here is what God says about "freedom of religion:"

Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before Me."

That has nothing to do with freedom of religion.  If it did, God would have simply eliminated all those other gods and the religions result.  That was a command that God issued that man, by God's own will, is free to obey or not.

That has nothing to do with freedom of religion.  If it did, God would have simply eliminated all those other gods and the religions result.  That was a command that God issued that man, by God's own will, is free to obey or not.

Of course it is a freedom of religion thing.

It says I am NOT free to believe in the Great Pumpkin, or whatever is the local "god" of belly button lint.

When Israel left Egypt in the Exodus, was God in favor of Pharaoh and the rest of his people believing in Ra, the sun god, hapi, the Nile river god or Atum the god of darkness?  NO!

Edit to add:

Do you really think that on Judgement Day God will accept "No I did not believe in you, i believe in Buddha."  Or Krishna, or Zeus or Athena or Odin?  NO. 

I would say that God despises the REASON behind the framers of the US constitution adding that "right" in the document.

The "church leaders" weaponized their established denomination (the Church of England) against all other denominations and groups.

So what?

I think you and I have different views of "freedom." 
You are not free to do something if there are negative consequences attached to that.

With that I am beginning to understand some of your really strange thinking.

Appreciate the responses, people.  The reason I brought this subject up is due to a conversation I recently had with my liberal-leaning daughter after this year’s inauguration. 

The question being: Why would our nation (initially founded on freedom of religion) be currently defaulting MORE quickly into insane, self-destructive wickedness than previous immoral empires that had no such foundation?  Think how young we are as a nation compared to history’s record of long-enduring empirical powers.  It would seem that the MORE religious freedom that a nation is given at the outset only provides GREATER impetus to default to natural wickedness EVEN SOONER than it would have if not given that freedom. 

RB, I read your link, and nothing in it seems to contradict the point I’m making, but rather seems to confirm it.  You said, “...the only means whereby God’s children can express themselves in such a society is by freedom of religion.”  Hmmmm, not quite true.  Think about Paul and Silas in the Philippian jail’s inner prison, beaten and bound in stocks as punishment for the effects of their gospel preaching.  One would think they had lost their freedom of religion, but NO.  They were singing songs to God in the middle of the night , which all the prisoners and the jailor were hearing.  The result of their confinement was an earthquake that broke the prison doors and every chain in the jail.  Given that opportunity of FLEEING the jail and regaining their freedom of religion, Paul and Silas and all the prisoners chose to STAY confined in the jail - which resulted in the jailor and all his house confessing faith in Christ. 

So it would seem that the tighter freedom of religion is confined, the faster it spreads.  Doesn’t make sense in the natural world, but we serve a God who does things in upside-down fashion.

Dave W, looks as if you and I are thinking on the same wave-length on this one.  Love your “Great Pumpkin” and navel lint examples.  Made me laugh.

4WD,  I would counter your comment about mankind “freely choosing God” with God’s observation about mankind’s natural inclinations in Psalms 14:2-3  “The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were ANY that did understand, and seek God.  They are ALL gone aside, they are ALL together become filthy: there is NONE that doeth good, no not one.”  And Paul echoes that in Romans 3:10-12.  “There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God...”.

Left to ourselves, and given widespread “freedom of religion”, without the Spirit intervening, mankind defaults into making suicidal spiritual choices all the sooner.  America’s rapidly-descending morals seem to prove that scripture to be absolutely true. 

The question being: Why would our nation (initially founded on freedom of religion) be currently defaulting MORE quickly into insane, self-destructive wickedness than previous immoral empires that had no such foundation?  Think how young we are as a nation compared to history’s record of long-enduring empirical powers.  It would seem that the MORE religious freedom that a nation is given at the outset only provides GREATER impetus to default to natural wickedness EVEN SOONER than it would have if not given that freedom. 

I think it is important to remember that people choosing non-christian religions was NOT on the minds of the constitutional framers.  It was freedom of which denomination to follow. The Church of England had imposed taxes in all the colonies which were the tithes to support Church of England parishes.  If you attended Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) or a Lutheran congregation, you STILL had to pay the Church of England.  It is why they outlawed a state-mandated denomination. 

So it would seem that the tighter freedom of religion is confined, the faster it spreads.  Doesn’t make sense in the natural world, but we serve a God who does things in upside-down fashion.

An odd occurrence to be sure, but it seems persecution makes religion spread and even flourish; even false religion. The Red Chinese found that out a few decades back with the Falun Gong cult.  The more they tried to shut it down the faster it gained followers. Finally they stopped and it just kinda fizzled.

4WD,  I would counter your comment about mankind “freely choosing God” with God’s observation about mankind’s natural inclinations in Psalms 14:2-3  “The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were ANY that did understand, and seek God.  They are ALL gone aside, they are ALL together become filthy: there is NONE that doeth good, no not one.”  And Paul echoes that in Romans 3:10-12.  “There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God...”.

You and so many others grossly misinterpret and misunderstand such passages.  The entire history of mankind shows that virtually every group, every tribe, every nation indeed searches desperately after gods.  Man cannot seek after God unless and until God, Himself, first reveals Himself.  And that He has done.  And He has done that through man.  He continues to do that through man.  That you interpret such passages as God having failed in doing so is rather strange to say the least.  And you need to relook your interpretation of what constitutes "good" in such passages. Consider Mark 10:18.

Never forget that Romans 3:10-12 applies to you as well as it does to anyone else.  You might spend some time thinking on that.

I think it is important to remember that people choosing non-christian religions was NOT on the minds of the constitutional framers. 

So then, you think the framer's intention was to prohibit non-Christian religions?  What lunacy ! !

Of course you deal with consequences.

But that is NEITHER a freedom or a right. 

BTW - if murder had been listed as a right, how would that affect your answers here?

Freedom and right are not the same at all.  I think all that block logic must be getting to you.

RB, I read your link, and nothing in it seems to contradict the point I’m making, but rather seems to confirm it.  You said, “...the only means whereby God’s children can express themselves in such a society is by freedom of religion.”  Hmmmm, not quite true.

You better believe that it is so. Your example proves nothing in this debate. I will prove why your example carries no weight when I have more time, I'm working on another project at the moment.

Our founding fathers would strongly disagree with you.

This was short, but later I will say more. RB

Hey 4WD,

Awww, bless your spotty hide, as we say here in SC.  OF COURSE I also apply Romans 3:10-12 to myself as well.  Left to my own devices without the aid of the Spirit, I would also be groping in darkness.  “It is GOD that worketh in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”  Any time I fall short, the failure cannot be blamed on God, but on my weakness as an “earthen vessel”.

You did state something I can totally agree with.  “Man cannot seek after God unless and until God, Himself, first reveals Himself.”  This is not your usual emphasis, but I’m glad to see we are in sync on this.

There is a bit of difference between mankind through the ages instinctively seeking to worship things called “gods” (little g) compared to them seeking after God (big G).    As created, I guess mankind is hard-wired to worship SOMETHING...ANYTHING that is more powerful than themselves.  However, that innate instinct when prompted by an unregenerate heart will only turn from the True God to alternate substitutes.  Until God FIRST steps in and makes a change by revealing Himself to the person - by whatever means.

For RB, take your time as needed to respond, but not sure why you can’t consider my example of Paul and Silas as pertinent to the point I’m  making.  The problem with “freedom of religion” from God’s perspective is exactly what you said; humanity is given the liberty of  “expressing THEMSELVES” in religion.  Not focused on expressing GOD’S nature as we were initially created to do in the Garden.

Exodus 20:3  “You shall have no other gods before Me."

That has nothing to do with freedom of religion.  If it did, God would have simply eliminated all those other gods and the religions result.  That was a command that God issued that man, by God's own will, is free to obey or not.

You're WAY out of context here, trying to apply this to all mankind.

This command was given to the nation of Israel at Moses hand, as part of the charter of their government.  It has everything to do with freedom of religion, or rather the contrary.  The foundational command for Israel is that they will not serve any gods, except the One.

The commandment is not for all mankind.  But for those who would be part of Israel, it is a prerequisite.  There is no such thing as a Christian Polytheist.  There are no atheists in that body which is called spiritual Israel.

Jarrod

So then, you think the framer's intention was to prohibit non-Christian religions?  What lunacy ! !

They clearly did not want a federally mandated religion.  But from my reading, it seems that most of them were fine with a "state religion," as long as it was established on the state level.

I believe the framer's intent was for each state to establish a religion for itself.  Many of the colonies were founded by groups from the same church, often escaping persecution at the hands of the Anglican or Catholic church.  I do not think that it ever entered their minds that any of the states' religions would be other than some form of Christianity, although there were certainly a few atheists and a number of deists among the framers.

Jarrod

Okay DaveW,  let’s see if I can pick a more accurate way of expressing that...I’ll change it to “God’s PERMISSIVE will IN CONTRAST to His PERFECT will.”  That keeps both, as you say, within God’s boundaries.  That any better?

That works.  Just remember His permissive will is still within His will.

I’m going to poke the sacred cow with this question.  As Americans, this concept is deeply ingrained into our patriotic subconscious.  The nation was founded with this freedom, and the saints, for the most part, have enjoyed unheard-of opportunities because of it.

But think of this from God’s perspective.  A certain “Freedom of religion” throughout all of history has meant that men have been granted a choice of picking whatever made-up deity they have been pleased to invent, combined with whatever abominable practices they have selected to honor those false gods.  Child sacrifice...ritual prostitution...worship of devils...genocide...wars...you name it, these evils have all been done in the name of religion. 

My contention is that when God draws human history to a close, this “freedom of religion” that God has permitted (but not approved) will be finally purged from the planet so that the single, unadulterated worship of God will stand alone without any idolatrous competition.

Freedom of religion is not all that it’s cracked up to be, when put in the hands of sinful men.  As long as we are in this condition, it inevitably becomes a corrupted means of further expressing that sinfulness.  Fortunately, as Paul said, “The Spirit of God is not bound.”  True and absolute freedom of religion is found there and nowhere else.

Yes or no anybody?

I am struck by the first amendment of the US constitution.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If that were not originally put there by our forefathers then chances are we would not be having this discussion today.

Does God approve? Likely not, yet as the bible tells us... Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God... one has to assume that God did allow it for us and our freedoms.

Another thought that has not been addresses is whether God approves of freedom of
Christian religions and the variety there is. We may all believe in God, as do Jews and Muslims... and only we have an understanding of the gift to us that is Jesus... but the variety of the ways we all worship I often wonder if God approves, or not.

RB, I read your link, and nothing in it seems to contradict the point I’m making, but rather seems to confirm it.  You said, “...the only means whereby God’s children can express themselves in such a society is by freedom of religion.”  Hmmmm, not quite true.  Think about Paul and Silas in the Philippian jail’s inner prison, beaten and bound in stocks as punishment for the effects of their gospel preaching.  One would think they had lost their freedom of religion, but NO.  They were singing songs to God in the middle of the night , which all the prisoners and the jailor were hearing.  The result of their confinement was an earthquake that broke the prison doors and every chain in the jail.  Given that opportunity of FLEEING the jail and regaining their freedom of religion, Paul and Silas and all the prisoners chose to STAY confined in the jail - which resulted in the jailor and all his house confessing faith in Christ. 

Losing the freedom of religion in the sense of not being able to express ourselves either by mouth, the press etc., and saints not loving and praising God are two different things entirely. Paul and Silas had freedom and Paul prove that this in the same context which you are presenting.

Acts 16:35-39~"And when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go. And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace. But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out. And the serjeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans. And they came and besought them, and brought them out, and desired them to depart out of the city."

Freedom of religion and freedom of speech ARE CONNECTED, (Paul and Silas had both and used it) once this is ever taken from us then we WOULD go underground just as they have done throughout the communist countries where there is NO freedom of religion or speech, or to peaceably assemble openly.

As I said above:

By the fact that man by nature is misotheism being, thereby, the only means whereby God's children can express themselves in such a society is to have freedom of religion.

Freedom of religion and speech is an absolute must in order for us to live without being a target for hatred, or even death and without men lording over us as their servants doing their pleasures and them using us or discarding us if a hindrance to them. Euthanasia is soon coming~it is already in Europe.