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Author Topic: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?  (Read 2397 times)

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Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Jan 27, 2021 - 13:41:27 »
But God did not prevent them for their idolatries, rather He made them regret their doing so.
The penalties laid out in advance are meant to dissuade the people from sinning.

I wouldn't God gave them any freedom to "choose" idolatry.  He instituted the death penalty for idolatry.  I reckon that's about as much as a government can do to oppose a thing.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Jan 27, 2021 - 14:08:21 »
The penalties laid out in advance are meant to dissuade the people from sinning.
Of  course.  Laws do not keep anyone from breaking the law or disobeying the law.  It is almost always the threat of punishment that actually leads to obedience, at least at first. Then depending upon the type of law it is, other things such as love for the law giver can have a positive influence.
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I wouldn't God gave them any freedom to "choose" idolatry.  He instituted the death penalty for idolatry.  I reckon that's about as much as a government can do to oppose a thing.
God actually did more than that.  God honored and blessed obedience.  That is something that we learn as parents and something that the government should take heed of.

But I do understand your point.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #37 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 12:37:34 »
I would say that God despises the REASON behind the framers of the US constitution adding that "right" in the document.

The "church leaders" weaponized their established denomination (the Church of England) against all other denominations and groups.

Dave W, I disagree with your statement. I would say that God definitely approves of freedom of religion. The framers of the Constitution put that in the document because they understood God, just as the founding fathers of Israel( Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Moses etc.) understood God. In Exodus, we read that God commanded Pharaoh "Let my people go so that they may worship Me." Moses also gave freedom of religion to others, for example-the Levitical Priesthood. They were allowed to worship as they pleased as long as they served the God of Israel and obeyed His Law( the Ten Commandments, an extension of the Golden Rule). Also, Moses gave them NO inheritance, meaning they had no power to rule over Israel. Likewise, in America, we have freedom of religion, but no one religion has the power to rule over the entire country. Freedom of religion as established by the founding fathers does not mean that we have the freedom to do whatever we please. Just as in Israel, we must also obey the Law of God. For example, you can't perform child sacrifices or go around killing people in the name of your religion because it violates "Thou shalt not murder."

But yes, we do have a right to worship freely. If you want to don robes and march around chanting liturgies according to traditions, go right ahead. If you want to play musical instruments, speak in tongues, sing, or meditate in silence, that's fine. Grow a beard, don't use electricity, eat fish on Friday, you're not hurting anyone. It all boils down to loving others as ourselves and respecting one another.



Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 15:31:59 »
Moses also gave freedom of religion to others, for example-the Levitical Priesthood.
Your example of freedom is literally the system that the Bible calls "bondage."   ::pondering::


Offline RB

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 03:53:23 »
If you want to play musical instruments, speak in tongues, sing, or meditate in silence, that's fine. Grow a beard, don't use electricity, eat fish on Friday, you're not hurting anyone. It all boils down to loving others as ourselves and respecting one another.
?......As usual, you make very little sense~but, I must ask you a quesiton~since you singled these certain liberties out ( if I may call them that for sake of you answering my question ) Are there anything wrong biblical in musical instruments, beards, not using electricity, etc.?
Quote from:  bel on: Yesterday at 12:37:34
It all boils down to loving others as ourselves and respecting one another.
That's a righteous thing and the sum of God's commandments along with loving God.
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 03:55:30 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #40 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 08:20:19 »
Dave W, I disagree with your statement. I would say that God definitely approves of freedom of religion. The framers of the Constitution put that in the document because they understood God, just as the founding fathers of Israel( Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Moses etc.) understood God.
So God approves of people worshiping Baal, Molech, etc?? 

Quote
Moses also gave freedom of religion to others, for example-the Levitical Priesthood. They were allowed to worship as they pleased as long as they served the God of Israel and obeyed His Law( the Ten Commandments, an extension of the Golden Rule).

"... as long as they served the God of Israel ..." being the operative phrase.  that is NOT freedom of religion since all that was within the framework of the ancient Israelite form of Judaism.
Quote
But yes, we do have a right to worship freely. If you want to don robes and march around chanting liturgies according to traditions, go right ahead. If you want to play musical instruments, speak in tongues, sing, or meditate in silence, that's fine. Grow a beard, don't use electricity, eat fish on Friday, you're not hurting anyone. It all boils down to loving others as ourselves and respecting one another.
You are confusing "freedom of practice" with "freedom of religion."  Every religion has a variety of practices that different adherents use.  Sunni and Shiah Islam worship differently but are still part of the Islam religion.

God says plainly "No Other gods." Period.  No freedom of religion.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #41 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 08:45:34 »
You are confusing "freedom of practice" with "freedom of religion." 
It is you who are confused.  Freedom of religion is freedom to practice the religion of your choice.  It has nothing to do with what God says or wants.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #42 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 09:26:52 »
It is you who are confused.  Freedom of religion is freedom to practice the religion of your choice.  It has nothing to do with what God says or wants.
Who but God can grant rights?

And isn't the OP about "what God says or wants?"

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #43 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 11:03:53 »
And isn't the OP about "what God says or wants?"
No.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #44 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 11:14:27 »
No.
NO?

How exactly DO you take "Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?"

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #45 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 11:27:39 »
NO?

How exactly DO you take "Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?"
Do you believe in free will of man? If so, does God really approve of the free will of man?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #46 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 11:39:53 »
Do you believe in free will of man? If so, does God really approve of the free will of man?
Yes and yes.

But God tells us HOW to choose.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #47 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 12:33:58 »
Freedom of religion and free will are both ALLOWED by God to teach mankind a potent lesson: that no created being of any kind can  be trusted with this dangerous power to choose.  He ALLOWS it for the purpose of our instruction, but ultimately DOES NOT APPROVE of it. 

Inevitably, the inherent quality of being a necessarily weaker being than the Creator led even the originally-sinless Adam to select a sinful choice, thereby causing death of all kinds and separation from our Creator. 

Freedom of religion placed in our hands makes idolatry possible, which is abominable to God.  Free will placed in our hands also makes more sinful choices possible, which God MUST judge if He is to remain true to His character as the Most Holy One.

In the eternal state, the saints will need to be devoid of these so-called “freedoms” of self-will, and be totally subsumed into God’s will alone.  Otherwise, we would still be at a continual risk of making another sinful choice which would require God to separate Himself from our presence again.  What kind of heaven would that be?

I already brought out this reasoning before in this link: (reply  #1, 3, 8) http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/the-purpose-of-god-for-creating-the-universe/
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 18:09:09 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #48 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 12:54:13 »
RB, I don't see what's so hard to understand about what I said. You obviously believe in freedom of religion as do I and many others. Some will read the Bible and tell you it's a sin to play musical instruments, or that you have to grow a beard because it's the way of God according to the traditions they were raised in. Are women allowed to speak in church? Well, according to some, Paul said it and so that means God disapproves of women speaking in church. This is ludicrous. There is a difference between the commandments of God and human beliefs and traditions. The command of the One True God is that we love others as ourselves.

Dave W, religions are mixed with both the Law of God(Do unto others-the Ten Commandments) and human traditions and beliefs. As I mentioned before, freedom of religion does not mean you can perform child sacrifices, or rape, steal and kill. All mankind is under the universal Law of the One True God. But, do you have a right to force others into your particular brand of worship that involve human traditions and beliefs?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #49 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 16:26:39 »
Yes and yes.

But God tells us HOW to choose.
The OP didn't ask if God approved of the choice; It ask if God approved of the right to choose. Freedom of religion is the right to choose the religion.

I think that old block logic is leading you astray yet again.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #50 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 03:13:07 »
RB, I don't see what's so hard to understand about what I said. You obviously believe in freedom of religion as do I and many others.
I do believe in the right to chose religion.

What I was not clear on some of your statements~you more or less made them clear, but do not need to talk of them in order to prevent this thread going into another direction. Carry on~ I have much bigger fish to fry.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 03:16:04 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #51 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 05:10:47 »
Freedom of religion and free will are both ALLOWED by God to teach mankind a potent lesson: that no created being of any kind can  be trusted with this dangerous power to choose.  He ALLOWS it for the purpose of our instruction, but ultimately DOES NOT APPROVE of it. 
Amen.  That says it right there.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #52 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 05:12:49 »
Dave W, religions are mixed with both the Law of God(Do unto others-the Ten Commandments) and human traditions and beliefs. As I mentioned before, freedom of religion does not mean you can perform child sacrifices, or rape, steal and kill. All mankind is under the universal Law of the One True God. But, do you have a right to force others into your particular brand of worship that involve human traditions and beliefs?
I wonder if we are arguing at cross purposes here by using different definitions of "religion."

To me, a different religion requires worshiping a different "god."
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 05:16:14 by DaveW »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 06:22:31 »
Freedom of religion and free will are both ALLOWED by God to teach mankind a potent lesson: that no created being of any kind can  be trusted with this dangerous power to choose. 
Not so.  The power to choose is the primary reason that God created this universe, including mankind. They are the ones who choose to believe and will inherit eternal life.

Offline Rella

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #54 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 08:20:21 »

Quote
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Yesterday at 12:33:58
Freedom of religion and free will are both ALLOWED by God to teach mankind a potent lesson: that no created being of any kind can  be trusted with this dangerous power to choose.

Not so.  The power to choose is the primary reason that God created this universe, including mankind. They are the ones who choose to believe and will inherit eternal life.

3R:  "that no created being of any kind can  be trusted with this dangerous power to choose.??"

That absolutely makes no sense. If God knew this about his creation and that we would destroy ourselves and his creation, what possibly could be the reasoning?

I can think of one but am of no mind at the moment to open up a free-for- all debate so for the moment I shall remain quiet.

I do look forward to what you say though, and maybe you can tie it into that being a pre 70AD concept that was finished back then ::shrug::

4WD: I believe you make somewhat a more solid reasoning as to this important question.

First though it must be stipulated that the concept of freedom of religion was not a universal idea nor accepted by any heads of state in any country, originally. There were always the "state sanctioned" religions and any outlier branches of any "reformed" anything were not accepted but mostly scorned. History bears this out .

When the US put Freedom of religion in their constitution it was merely to affirmatively break away from the government controlling our relationship with God.

This explains it better then I can

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/religion_and_the_constitution#:~:text=Because%20of%20their%20belief%20in%20a%20separation%20of,its%20citizens%20toward%20or%20away%20from%20a%20religion.

But everyone has to remember that when that concept was put inot the constitution mankind was not as morally depraved
as we are now.

I do not for one minute believe the framers of the constitution would ever think that witchcraft or satanism would ever be "accepted" in the US, but it is... it is even accepted on military bases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccans_and_Pagans_in_the_United_States_military

So freewill has taken us down the road to hell faster then anyone can comprehend.

Unfortunately I also believe that the language in the constitution was too simple.






Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #55 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 08:32:14 »
Not so, 4WD.  As in Acts 13:48, “...and as many as were *ORDAINED* UNTO ETERNAL LIFE believed.”  Don’t get the cart before the horse.

God knew that with the gift of choice in our hands, that a fallen Adam and all his progeny would only reject Him.  “The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were ANY that did understand, and seek God.  They are ALL gone aside, they are ALL together become filthy: there is NONE that doeth good, no NOT ONE.” (Ps. 14:2 and Rom. 3:10-12).

The gift of free-will choice in Adam’s originally-sinless hands (and also in ours) inevitably ends up becoming a suicidal tool for our own destruction.  In all kindness and mercy, God needs to remove this tool from us when we are in the eternal state so that we can rest in a secured condition where the risk of death and separation from Him can never touch us again.

You are in love with your own chains, 4WD.  “If the SON therefore shall *MAKE* YOU FREE,” (not a freedom you can achieve on your own), “ye shall be free indeed.”  (John 8:36).  Only in being totally subsumed finally  into God’s will for us can we be truly free indeed.  Freed from the toxic effects of our own free-will choices.

You are right to link this subject of freedom of religion with the concept of free-will.  They ARE branches on the same tree.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #56 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 09:52:38 »
Your quote , Rella:

“So free will has taken us down the road to hell faster than anyone can comprehend.”

YES, YES AND YES!  ABSOLUTELY TRUE...this is the thrust of my entire argument.  The more rope fallen mankind is given, the quicker they hang themselves.  So sad, but so true, without the Holy Spirit stepping in and rescuing us from our own folly.

This lesson, I believe, is what God has been teaching mankind throughout history and the varying types of spiritual environments He has set up for mankind.

First of all, Adam and Eve were created sinless and were set into a perfect Garden setting with the Devil only a latent threat who had not yet tempted them to sin.  A sinless Adam chose willingly to sin.

Next, for 3,000 years, Satan and the demonic realm was allowed to operate freely in the world, deceiving mankind without much restraint.  Paul called this “the times of this ignorance God winked at” (in Acts 17:30), and “who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways”  (Acts 14:16).  These free-will choices led to “all flesh corrupting its way on earth”, and the judgment of Noah’s flood, the worship of devils, etc.

Next, for a literal thousand years of physical temple worship launched by Solomon under God’s direction, (the Rev. 20 millennium), the devil was put on a chain which restricted his deception of the nations.  God blessed the world during this time with a burst of prophetic ministry, both written and spoken. 

And how were these prophets treated?  For the most part, they were persecuted and martyred by their own countrymen.  Stephen asked a sarcastic question of the Pharisees, “Which of the prophets have NOT your fathers persecuted?  and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”  (Acts 7:52).

No nation had experienced so much revelation of God’s character as the nation of Israel.  Yet the more grace and revelation they were given, the more “stiff-necked” their choice of resistance became.  (Acts 7:51). 

When that 4th millennium of a chained Satan ended in AD 33 at Christ’s resurrection and ascension, God gave the gift of the indwelling Spirit to all saints in order to combat a loosed Satan.  The Devil was given a “short time” and a “little season” to operate at full steam in the world before his destruction.  Which he took full advantage of in walking around “as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour”. 

The NT scripture is chock full of warnings for the saints of that time period not to fall into deception - Satan’s main weapon as the murderous “Father of Lies”.  Truly, in that “wicked and perverse generation” as Jesus called it, evil men and seducers waxed worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived by a loosed Satan and the demonic realm.

Next, Paul promised the Roman believers in Romans 16:20 that God would SOON crush a destroyed Satan under their feet.  This was a promise that those saints who were “IN CHRIST” fulfilled vicariously when a returning Christ eradicated the ENTIRE demonic realm by slaying Satan and his angels in Jerusalem’s Lake of Fire in AD 70.  They had been imprisoned in that city, and God caused every one of those unclean spirits to “pass out of the land”, as Zech. 13:2 foretold.  This is when God “slew the dragon that is in the sea”, as Isaiah 27:1 foretold about that day. 

Since that time at the end of that age, mankind has been blessed with a “New Heaven and a New Earth” that has NO Satanic realm in existence anymore. 

But what are we doing, given this blessed spiritual environment of an eradicated demonic realm?  As you said, Rella, we are only using our free-will opportunities to go down the road to hell even faster than ever. The more favor we are shown, the more we abuse that gift.  It’s a sad commentary on the weakness of created beings, but it elevates the mercy and glory of God when He is able to lift us out of that and give us restored life. 

One day at the final judgment, I believe God will hold up the record of humanity’s free-will habits of choosing evil over good, no matter what spiritual environment they were given by God.  It’s a pitiful record.  We have chosen to sin regardless of the setting we were ever placed in.  It’s pathetic.  But it magnifies God’s holiness and underscores the mercy He has given to those He lifts out of their fallen condition.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #57 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 10:29:22 »
Not so, 4WD.  As in Acts 13:48, “...and as many as were *ORDAINED* UNTO ETERNAL LIFE believed.”  Don’t get the cart before the horse.
Calvinists, and the like, love that verse.  It seems to support their beliefs. 

But in fact it is, I believe, wrongly translated/interpreted.  The word translated "ordained" is from the Greek word τάσσω [tassō], meaning, according to Strong's,  "to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set."  The form of the verb in Acts 13:48 is τεταγμενοι [tetagmenoi]  The key lies in the form of the main Greek verb, tassō. As it appears in this text, the verb form is the participle tetagmenoi. It is obvious that most simply assume that this is the PASSIVE form of the verb, thus: “to be appointed, to be ordained, to be destined.” What is often forgotten is that in the Greek language, often the passive and the middle form of verbs are spelled exactly the same way. That is the case here. The word tetagmenoi can also be the MIDDLE form of the verb. Here is the main point: that is how it should be understood in Acts 13:48, i.e., as middle voice.

What does this verse mean, then? The middle voice of a verb in Greek is sometimes used in a reflexive sense. The idea is that the action of the verb is something performed by the subject (not by someone else upon the subject), but in such a way that the action is directed back toward the subject or the self. Understanding that the verb means “to place, to set, to arrange in a certain order or position,” we can see that the statement in 13:48 can quite validly be taken thus: “As many as arranged themselves unto (eis) eternal life believed,” or “As many as turned themselves toward eternal life believed,” or “As many as disposed themselves toward eternal life believed.”

Why should we accept this approach to the verb—i.e., as middle voice rather than passive? For two reasons. First, it agrees with the general overall teaching of Scripture, that turning toward God is a matter of free will and personal responsibility, not something unconditionally and irresistibly caused by God. Second, this agrees with the context, where the Jews’ response to the gospel is being contrasted with that of the Gentiles. In Acts 13:13-41 Paul preached a powerful Sabbath sermon in the Jews’ synagogue at Antioch. Many of the Jews were so impressed that they asked for an encore the next Sabbath (vv. 42-43). Then on “the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord” (v. 44). This crowd obviously included many Gentiles, because “when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him” (v. 45). This provoked Paul and Barnabas to speak this judgment upon the Jews: “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles” (v. 46). This verse is important because it shows that the exclusion of the Jews from the ranks of the saved was their own choice, not the result of some predestining activity of God. The Jews specifically judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. This is exactly the opposite of the Gentiles’ reaction, especially when Paul and Barnabas applied Isaiah 49:6 to themselves: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth” (v. 47). Verse 48 then describes the reaction of the Gentiles to this preaching. It was in fact just the opposite of the Jews’ reaction: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord.” Then follow the crucial words: “and as many as set themselves toward eternal life believed.” How did they set themselves toward eternal life? By hearing and heeding the word of God (see Romans 10:17). We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice.

We can further add support for this by noting that the word τάσσω [tassō], with the prefix δια [dia], in the very same passive/middle voice spelling of the word διατάσσω [diatassō], is found in Acts 20:13 (KJV)  And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot.

I would note here that I, myself, am certainly not enough of a Greek scholar to render this as such.  However, my personal acquittance and favorite theologian, Dr. Jack Cottrell, is.  I have taken most of the above discussion from Cottrell, Jack. The Bible Versus Calvinism (The Collected Writings of Jack Cottrell Book 4) . The Christian Restoration Association. Kindle Edition.


Offline Rella

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #58 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 11:31:14 »
I wonder if we are arguing at cross purposes here by using different definitions of "religion."

To me, a different religion requires worshiping a different "god."

Leaving Muslims out of the mix, no one would agree the differences between Judaism...who worship the same God (God the Father) you and I do is not a different religion then Christianity.

And an argument can be made that Catholicism and Protestantism are different religions. Again God the Father is one in the same

Offline DaveW

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #59 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 11:57:08 »
no one would agree the differences between Judaism...who worship the same God (God the Father) you and I do is not a different religion then Christianity.
You are forgetting the Messianics who maintain that they ARE the same religion.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #60 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 12:16:01 »
I wonder if we are arguing at cross purposes here by using different definitions of "religion."

To me, a different religion requires worshiping a different "god."

Dave W, You're right. I think we are arguing about different concepts. Freedom of religion as expressed in the Constitution by the founding fathers is NOT the same thing as free will.

As for worshiping a different "god", there a many things that people worship instead of God, examples-money, alcohol, drugs, food, humans,etc. etc.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #61 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 13:06:03 »
4WD, if you think that there is room for EITHER interpretation of “ordained” (tetagmenoi in Acts 13:48) to be applied in the Greek, I can always give you another example. 

Case in point: Lydia in Acts 16:14, “...whose heart *THE LORD* opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.”  Lydia did not open her own heart to begin with; it was AFTER God opened her heart that she was then made able to freely ATTEND or heed the words Paul spoke.  This is true either before or even after one becomes a child of God.  Any “hearing ear” or “seeing eye” is a creation of God alone.  “The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, THE LORD hath made even both of them.” (Prov. 20:12).  HE gets the credit for being the cause of the hearing and seeing - not us.

Your source, Jack Cottrell, is not considering the pre-ordained prophecy about the small “remnant” of Israel that God would “make a covenant with for one week” (the years between AD 30 and AD 37 of Daniel’s last 70th week when evangelism was concentrated on the lost sheep of the house of Israel). 

That was no mere happenstance that the Jews in Acts 13 rejected Christ and that the Gentiles were turning to Christ in huge numbers.  This was prophesied waaay back by many prophets, such as Isaiah who predicted of the 1st-century Jews that “hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive” (Matt. 13:14). 

What made the difference between the two groups at that time?  Jesus said “Because IT IS *GIVEN* UNTO YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but TO THEM IT IS *NOT GIVEN*.”  (Matt. 13:11).  It is a fearful thing for God to leave us alone to our own devices without stepping in to open our understanding.  The blind inevitably “fall into the ditch”.

A prophesied “remnant” of the Jews did become believers under the New Covenant, as predicted during that 70th week from AD 30-37.  This was “NECESSARY”, as Paul said in Acts 13:46, that FIRST the Jews would have the New Covenant spoken to them, in order to fulfill the conditions of Daniel’s last 70th week.  After that, evangelism exploded into the Gentile nations via Paul’s ministry as the “Apostle to the Gentiles”.  As he was ordained to be.


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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #62 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 13:11:41 »
You are forgetting the Messianics who maintain that they ARE the same religion.

Jewish or Christian?

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #63 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 13:38:53 »
You are forgetting the Messianics who maintain that they ARE the same religion.

1 John 2

23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #64 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 13:40:54 »

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #65 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 13:42:59 »
1 John 2
23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
Of course.  Both sides have plenty of apostates.

You are pointing out those on the Jewish side; but what about those on the christian side that totally miss HIM being an orthodox Jew?

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.  4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 13:46:35 by DaveW »

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #66 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 14:12:40 »
Of course.  Both sides have plenty of apostates.

You are pointing out those on the Jewish side; but what about those on the christian side that totally miss HIM being an orthodox Jew?

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.  4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

1.  Are there any Jews (precluding those that fall into Messianic Jews) who believe in Christ?

2.  You will have to explain further on your reference to 2 Corinthians 11:3, and how those on the "Christian" side totally miss JEsus being a Jew.  I would say "Orthodox Jew" as we think of now, did not exist during Jesus's earthly ministry.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 16:37:29 by Texas Conservative »

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #67 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 16:25:49 »
The blind inevitably “fall into the ditch”.
And who knows, one day you might climb out of that Preterist ditch you have fallen into.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 16:28:31 by 4WD »

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #68 on: Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 05:01:49 »
1.  Are there any Jews (precluding those that fall into Messianic Jews) who believe in Christ?
That is like asking if there are any red tomatoes, excluding the red ones.  Jews who believe in Jesus are the definition of Messianic.

Now if you are asking if there are Jews who believe in Jesus in regular churches, regular traditional synagogues, and NOT part organized Messianic Judaism, the answer is YES. A LOT of them.  Maybe more than in organized MJ.
Quote
2.  You will have to explain further on your reference to 2 Corinthians 11:3, and how those on the "Christian" side totally miss Jesus being a Jew.  I would say "Orthodox Jew" as we think of now, did not exist during Jesus's earthly ministry.
Read the early church fathers.  Some said the main reason for the virgin birth was so Christ would have NO JEWISH BLOOD in Him. The current church leaders (in some circles) routinely teach that He had total disregard for the Law of Moses.

Orthodox Judaism today is the decedent of Pharisaic Judaism of the first century.  It had to change after the Temple was destroyed, but they tried to keep as much of first century Pharisaic practice as possible going. that is what we call orthodox judaism today.

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Re: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion?
« Reply #69 on: Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 10:39:26 »
That is like asking if there are any red tomatoes, excluding the red ones.  Jews who believe in Jesus are the definition of Messianic.

Now if you are asking if there are Jews who believe in Jesus in regular churches, regular traditional synagogues, and NOT part organized Messianic Judaism, the answer is YES. A LOT of them.  Maybe more than in organized MJ. Read the early church fathers.  Some said the main reason for the virgin birth was so Christ would have NO JEWISH BLOOD in Him. The current church leaders (in some circles) routinely teach that He had total disregard for the Law of Moses.

Orthodox Judaism today is the decedent of Pharisaic Judaism of the first century.  It had to change after the Temple was destroyed, but they tried to keep as much of first century Pharisaic practice as possible going. that is what we call orthodox judaism today.

A derivative of Pharisaic Judaism is not Pharisaic Judaism.  Jesus wasn't a Pharisee.

I am not the judge of when the line is crossed that makes Christ be "another Jesus."  I know some examples are completely obvious.

However, Jews who follow Judaism, necessarily don't believe in Christ.  It is a black and white issue, per God's Word.  Messianic groups might claim to be a sect of Judaism, but it is not a belief shared by those who follow Judaism such as Orthodox Jews.

 

     
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