Author Topic: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion? (Read 2397 times)

Texas Conservative · « **Reply #70 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 10:39:26 »

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 05:01:49

That is like asking if there are any red tomatoes, excluding the red ones. Jews who believe in Jesus are the definition of Messianic.

Now if you are asking if there are Jews who believe in Jesus in regular churches, regular traditional synagogues, and NOT part organized Messianic Judaism, the answer is YES. A LOT of them. Maybe more than in organized MJ. Read the early church fathers. Some said the main reason for the virgin birth was so Christ would have NO JEWISH BLOOD in Him. The current church leaders (in some circles) routinely teach that He had total disregard for the Law of Moses.

Orthodox Judaism today is the decedent of Pharisaic Judaism of the first century. It had to change after the Temple was destroyed, but they tried to keep as much of first century Pharisaic practice as possible going. that is what we call orthodox judaism today.

A derivative of Pharisaic Judaism is not Pharisaic Judaism. Jesus wasn't a Pharisee.

I am not the judge of when the line is crossed that makes Christ be "another Jesus." I know some examples are completely obvious.

However, Jews who follow Judaism, necessarily don't believe in Christ. It is a black and white issue, per God's Word. Messianic groups might claim to be a sect of Judaism, but it is not a belief shared by those who follow Judaism such as Orthodox Jews.

DaveW · « **Reply #71 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 10:52:17 »

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 10:39:26

A derivative of Pharisaic Judaism is not Pharisaic Judaism. Jesus wasn't a Pharisee.

Most Orthodox Jewish scholars who have actually read the gospel accounts differ. They see our Master's teachings falling neatly between Shammai's and Hillel's; the 2 main schools of Pharisaic teaching.

Quote

However, Jews who follow Judaism, necessarily don't believe in Christ. It is a black and white issue, per God's Word. Messianic groups might claim to be a sect of Judaism, but it is not a belief shared by those who follow Judaism such as Orthodox Jews.

And what do you do with someone who is and was raised Orthodox Jewish and is still fully a part of that life who believes in Messiah?

DaveW · « **Reply #72 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 11:12:19 »

Tex: this is in my most recent copy of Messiah Journal. It is an email FFOZ got at their Jerusalem center for study called Bram Center.

Shalom! My name is ___ I'm 25 years old, living in ____. I'm a Jew. Religiously and not just "culturally," I'm a Jew, reverent of our traditions, way of life and way of thinking. That's not something I wish to change. My interest in the man they call Jesus has been steadily growing for several months now. My reading of the so-called New Testament has thus far left me convinced that his teachings are not only good but also compatible with Judaism, i.e. one can follow him and remain religiously Jewish, say, by adhering to HaRamban's thirteen articles of faith and fully accepting Israel's election and HaShem's binding covenant with them. The trouble is that few people seem to seriously share that conviction.

I surmised that you wouldn't be hostile to Judaism and definitely less likely to think that thousands of years of tradition and an interpretative framework were simply rendered obsolete with the coming to the world of the Apostolic Writings. To put it rather bluntly, you certainly believe in Yeshua.

Your connections are surely better than mine, which are nonexistent. O was wondering if you could maybe spread the word that I'm looking for someone, and observant Jew, and someone who shares the conviction of Yeshua to be a study partner to study these matters with?

FFOZ had the perfect person to pair him up with.

Texas Conservative · « **Reply #73 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 11:42:42 »

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 10:52:17

Most Orthodox Jewish scholars who have actually read the gospel accounts differ. They see our Master's teachings falling neatly between Shammai's and Hillel's; the 2 main schools of Pharisaic teaching.
And what do you do with someone who is and was raised Orthodox Jewish and is still fully a part of that life who believes in Messiah?

Is their hope in justification in Christ or in Judaism? If it is in that life (Judaism), scripture talks about that, i.e., Galatians

DaveW · « **Reply #74 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 11:49:11 »

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 11:42:42

Is their hope in justification in Christ or in Judaism? If it is in that life (Judaism), scripture talks about that, i.e., Galatians

"Justification" as most protestant christians think about it, is not much of a concern to the Jewish mindset.

Texas Conservative · « **Reply #75 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 12:40:57 »

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 11:49:11

"Justification" as most protestant christians think about it, is not much of a concern to the Jewish mindset.

I don't care what most protestant Christians think about it, nor do I care what the Jewish mindset is.

Scripture talks about this in Galatians 5. Not my words, God's.

DaveW · « **Reply #76 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 12:48:21 »

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 12:40:57

I don't care what most protestant Christians think about it, nor do I care what the Jewish mindset is.
Scripture talks about this in Galatians 5. Not my words, God's.

Of course it does. We all know that.

But it is not some kind of litmus test to see if someone is really saved or not. It is just a statement of fact and would be seen as such.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #77 on:** Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 16:33:16 »

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 10:52:17

Most Orthodox Jewish scholars who have actually read the gospel accounts differ. They see our Master's teachings falling neatly between Shammai's and Hillel's; the 2 main schools of Pharisaic teaching.

The Lord affirms a few teachings from each of those houses, but he disagrees and presents His own position more often than he agrees with either one. Like any great teacher, it is where he departs from tradition that defines his doctrine.

He is not and was not a Pharisee. He founded His own sect. History records as much.

Jarrod

johntwayne · « **Reply #78 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 03:08:12 »

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 07:44:13

Of course you deal with consequences.

But that is NEITHER a freedom or a right.

BTW - if murder had been listed as a right, how would that affect your answers here?

What is abortion if it is not the right to murder?

4WD · « **Reply #79 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:22:49 »

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 11:49:11

"Justification" as most protestant christians think about it, is not much of a concern to the Jewish mindset.

What do you think "justification" is as most protestants think about it?

DaveW · « **Reply #80 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:28:08 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:22:49

What do you think "justification" is as most protestants think about it?

The legal process by which one is absolved of sins.

As I have heard over and over: "Just-as-if-I'd never sinned" It includes (oft times competing) theological view(s) on substitutionary sacrifice.

And if you don't properly understand it, it does not apply to you.

4WD · « **Reply #81 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:28:41 »

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 07:44:13

Of course you deal with consequences.

But that is NEITHER a freedom or a right.

Choice is absolutely a freedom and a right.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 07:44:13

BTW - if murder had been listed as a right, how would that affect your answers here?

Silly hypothetical.

4WD · « **Reply #82 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:31:24 »

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:28:08

The legal process by which one is absolved of sins.

And that is not of much concern to the Jewish mindset? Interesting.

DaveW · « **Reply #83 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:53:08 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:31:24

And that is not of much concern to the Jewish mindset? Interesting.

The mechanism for doing so - no. If God says you're forgiven, that is good enough.

Yes there are traditions surrounding everything including repentance, but it is more concerned with the restoration of the violator and restitution for the violated than the eternal spiritual concepts involved.

4WD · « **Reply #84 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:10:32 »

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:53:08

The mechanism for doing so - no. If God says you're forgiven, that is good enough.

When or where does God ever say you're forgiven without the mechanism for doing so? And by the way, forgiveness is never good enough. That is why Jesus had to die on the cross. If forgiveness was ever good enough, Jesus' ransom paid to God would not have been needed.

DaveW · « **Reply #85 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:16:41 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:10:32

When or where does God ever say you're forgiven without the mechanism for doing so? And by the way, forgiveness is never good enough. That is why Jesus had to die on the cross. If forgiveness was ever good enough, Jesus' ransom paid to God would not have been needed.

There you are arguing FOR a mechanism. That is a gentile mindset.

And you are right, forgiveness by itself is not enough. That is why the traditions include restitution. But I do not think that was the point you were making.

4WD · « **Reply #86 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:31:00 »

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:16:41

There you are arguing FOR a mechanism. That is a gentile mindset.

The mechanism is the message of the Bible. If that were not so, the Bible wouldn't even be needed. And if the Jewish mindset doesn't understand that, then it is little wonder that we are told that "He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him."

DaveW · « **Reply #87 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:36:28 »

I would suggest, if that truly is your viewpoint, that your entire understanding of the bible is questionable.
It was NOT given to a group of people with a western mechanistic mindset. It was given to the Jews. Both testaments were written by JEWS. And the Jews are STILL responsible for interpreting it - both testaments.

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4WD · « **Reply #88 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:01:49 »

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:36:28

I would suggest, if that truly is your viewpoint, that your entire understanding of the bible is questionable.
It was NOT given to a group of people with a western mechanistic mindset. It was given to the Jews. Both testaments were written by JEWS. And the Jews are STILL responsible for interpreting it - both testaments.

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

The bulk of the New Testament was entrusted to the Gentile. Mark, Luke, and Paul all addressed their writings to the Gentile. And it is argued that even Peter, in both of his letters, were addressed mainly to the Gentile, and that not with some outdated and probably non-existent block logic.

DaveW · « **Reply #89 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:08:05 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:01:49

The bulk of the New Testament was entrusted to the Gentile. Mark, Luke, and Paul all addressed their writings to the Gentile. And it is argued that even Peter, in both of his letters, were addressed mainly to the Gentile, and that not with some outdated and probably non-existent block logic.

The verses i quoted were addressed to a majority gentile congregation, and told them the JEWS were entrusted.
Show me chapter and verse that says otherwise.

4WD · « **Reply #90 on:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 08:01:11 »

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:08:05

The verses i quoted were addressed to a majority gentile congregation, and told them the JEWS were entrusted.
Show me chapter and verse that says otherwise.

So the letters in the NT written to Gentiles were entrusted to the Jews? More block logic.

DaveW · « **Reply #91 on:** Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 05:00:13 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 08:01:11

So the letters in the NT written to Gentiles were entrusted to the Jews?

Yes of course.

Were those letters written by Jews or Gentiles? Jews.
And do not the authors have the final say as to what their own writings say? Of course.

Entrusted to Jews.

Quote

More block logic.

if you say so. I am quite sure you do not understand what that is.

4WD · « **Reply #92 on:** Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 06:23:16 »

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 05:00:13

Were those letters written by Jews or Gentiles? Jews.
And do not the authors have the final say as to what their own writings say? Of course.

So then your understanding is that in Romans 3:2, when Paul said that one of the advantages of the Jew, the benefits of circumcision, was "that they were entrusted with the oracles of God" , he was speaking of the authors? What nonsense.

DaveW · « **Reply #93 on:** Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 06:35:06 »

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 06:23:16

So then your understanding is that in Romans 3:2, when Paul said that one of the advantages of the Jew, the benefits of circumcision, was "that they were entrusted with the oracles of God" , he was speaking of the authors? What nonsense.

Not JUST the authors but certainly them.

The authors wrote from a certain world view, life experience and cultural understanding. That experience is uniquely Jewish. And thanks to the oral traditions of Jewish culture, those experiences have been well documented and understood. By religious Jews today.

4WD · « **Reply #94 on:** Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 06:46:39 »

Pure unadulterated baloney; or is that bologna?

Alan · « **Reply #95 on:** Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 06:48:19 »

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 06:46:39

Pure unadulterated baloney; or is that bologna?

Depends on the version and/or translation.

4WD · « **Reply #96 on:** Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 08:05:41 »

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Author Topic: Does God REALLY approve of freedom of religion? (Read 2397 times)