GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Eat Me!  (Read 2353 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #35 on: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 11:58:20 »
the rosary contains TEN TIMES MORE prayers to MARY than to GOD!

 A claim that is  both trivial and, mathematically incorrect.
 
Mathematics:
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women…” Not a prayer but a statements from scripture. However if you think that calling Mary, ‘blessed among women’ is a prayer to her, then the next statement “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus’ is a prayer to God.
So far then 50:50 Mary and God.
 
“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, Amen”. Since protestants refuse the accept that “praying to Mary” is only asking her for her prayers, then by their own logic asking her for her prayers is not  “praying to Mary”.
 
Before the 10 Hail Marys there is an Our Father -  a prayer to God
After the 10 Hail Marys there is the “Glory be…”
 
“Glory be to the Father,” – a prayer of praise to God the Father
“and to the Son,” – a prayer of praise to God the Son
“and to the Holy Spirit…” – a prayer of praise to God the Holy Spirit.
 
Thus we have 4 prayers to God and none to Mary.
 
Overall then, depending on how you count the “blesseds” of the Hail Mary there are more prayers to God than to Mary in the Rosary.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #36 on: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 13:39:43 »

They are alive in heaven. Jesus said "He is not God of the dead, but of the living." (Mt 22:32)

Its a different kind of life. focussed completely on God, not on us on earth.

Where does it say that in scripture?

they have better things to do than to listen to us moaning and whining. plus they would have to be omniprescent to hear all our prayers. plus our prayers would make them sad and there is no sadness in heaven.

Where does it say that in scripture

Yes there is.

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Rev 5:8)

NOTHING here says the prayers were prayed TO the elders.

Who do you think they were prayed to if the elders are presenting them to God?

Why would prayers to God need presenting to God? Couldn't he hear them himself


And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (Rev 8:3-4)

see above.

see above

Moreover, asking Saints to intercede for us is a teaching of Jesus.
In Lk 16:19-31 Jesus tells us the story of Lazarus and the rich man (traditionally known as Dives) both of whom have died. Dives is in torment and makes two requests of Abraham (long dead). Abraham turns down both requests. The second one is particularly interesting. He asks Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers, something surely only God could do. Abraham turns down his request because 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.' (vs 19). Abraham does not say he could not so this but only that it would be futile. 


context. the rich man was in hell, not on earth.

So? The principle is that requests are being made to a saint that is not on earth and who can hear them and would appear to have the power to answer them.


you have ZERO evidence that we are told to pray to physically dead people or that the apostles did. in fact, this is FORBIDDEN. Plus, are you arrogant enough to KNOW who IS in heaven or not?

Where in scripture does it say we are forbidden to pray to those in heaven?


We know that the angels and saints in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth (Heb 12:1, Lk 15:10))

Heb 12:1 NEVER says WHO these witnesses are, so yes, they COULD be angels but dont say they are saints too as you DONT KNOW. Plus, there is NOT an official, infallible catholic interpretation of this verse, so its just your private interpretation.

Context, context, context.

The whole of chapter 11 has been describing the great men of faith of the Old Testament.

It then says they did not receive what was promised (heaven) apart from us. Then it says "
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" Therefore the witnesses are the men of fatith of the OT and those who have gone to heaven from among us.

We also know that they can present our prayers to God (see Rev 5:8, 8:3-4 above).

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #37 on: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 23:39:20 »
TEN hail marys to ONE our father!

game, set and match.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #38 on: Mon Feb 05, 2018 - 06:01:23 »
TEN hail marys to ONE our father!

game, set and match.


 A claim that is  both trivial and, mathematically incorrect.
 
Mathematics:
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women…” Not a prayer but a statements from scripture. However if you think that calling Mary, ‘blessed among women’ is a prayer to her, then the next statement “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus’ is a prayer to God.
So far then 50:50 Mary and God.
 
“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, Amen”. Since protestants refuse the accept that “praying to Mary” is only asking her for her prayers, then by their own logic asking her for her prayers is not  “praying to Mary”.
 
Before the 10 Hail Marys there is an Our Father -  a prayer to God
After the 10 Hail Marys there is the “Glory be…”
 
“Glory be to the Father,” – a prayer of praise to God the Father
“and to the Son,” – a prayer of praise to God the Son
“and to the Holy Spirit…” – a prayer of praise to God the Holy Spirit.
 
Thus we have 4 prayers to God and none to Mary.
 
Overall then, depending on how you count the “blesseds” of the Hail Mary there are more prayers to God than to Mary in the Rosary.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #39 on: Mon Feb 05, 2018 - 09:51:11 »
yeah, i was expecting this standard, robotic response. oh, they are more alive in heaven, blah blah blah.

Can some person who is at the other end of the universe hear our prayers? Isn't this something that is exclusively reserved to God? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers.

Here is a standard, robotic response from Al Kresta for you to blah, blah, blah:
Years ago someone calculated that Mary would have to listen to 46,296 petitions per second all year long. And that was just the rosary traffic. It was an attempt to reduce to absurdity the ancient practice of invoking the saints. Only God could hear so much at once, he argued. Therefore, Catholics must really think Mary and the other saints are deities.

In response, we should note first that Mary and the other saints, of course, are not omniscient deities. Nevertheless, they do share something with God: They are outside of time. Being outside of time, it takes no time for them to hear these prayers.

Furthermore, there are a finite number of people on the earth, and thus a finite number of prayers are being sent skyward. Omniscience is not required — just an expanded range of human abilities. This is, of course, what God has promised: “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor 2:9).

Second, we should note that our oneness in Christ forms the medium of our communication with those in heaven. He is the vine; we are the branches in heaven and on earth. We are one body animated by Christ, who is the infinite, personal God in heaven and on earth. The eye communicates properly with the brain, and the hand communicates adequately with the itchy nose. This is part of the “communion of saints.”

Third, Scripture is clear that those in Heaven are somehow aware of the needs of those on the earth. The angels in heaven rejoice over the repentance of one sinner (Lk 15:7-10); the elders and angels in heaven offer up the prayers of the saints on earth (Rv 5:8; 8:3); those under the altar know that the time of their vindication has not yet come on the earth (Rv 6:10).

Also, God makes things known to people as he wills and makes possible.
Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, and he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight."  (Acts 9:10-12)

God communicates to Ananias that Paul is praying and that he (Ananias) must go and lay hands on Paul.
God communicates to Paul that Ananias will come to him and lay hands on him to receive his sight.
Neither are omniscient yet they know things that only God can know.
They know because God wills that they know and makes it known to them.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 05, 2018 - 09:54:07 by winsome »

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #40 on: Tue Feb 06, 2018 - 03:13:44 »
Before the 10 Hail Marys

right TEN prayers to mary

there is an Our Father -  a prayer to God

right, ONE prayer to God.


thats a ratio of 10 to 1.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #41 on: Tue Feb 06, 2018 - 07:16:50 »
Before the 10 Hail Marys

right TEN prayers to mary

there is an Our Father -  a prayer to God

right, ONE prayer to God.


thats a ratio of 10 to 1.

I really don't understand why you want to continue with this trivia, but since you do:

The "Hail Mary" is two prayers;
a) a prayer of blessing to Mary (blessed  are you among women)
b) a prayer of blessing to Jesus (blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus)

The 'Our Father' is a prayer to God the Father.

A decade of the Rosary also includes the "Glory Be"
Glory be to the Father (a prayer of praise to God the Father)
and to the Son (a prayer of praise to God the Son)
and to the Holy Spirit (a prayer of praise to God the Holy Spirit)

Therefore each decade to the Rosary contains 14 prayers to God and 10 prayer to Mary

That's a ratio of 14:10

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #42 on: Tue Feb 06, 2018 - 12:38:07 »
the whole hail mary prayer is directed TO mary.

the our father is directed to God.

Just because the hail mary contains a sentence that refers to Jesus is irrelevent. the prayer is to MARY.

i am done. I cannot fix stupid.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Eat Me!
« Reply #43 on: Tue Feb 06, 2018 - 12:43:57 »
the whole hail mary prayer is directed TO mary.

the our father is directed to God.

Just because the hail mary contains a sentence that refers to Jesus is irrelevent. the prayer is to MARY.

i am done. I cannot fix stupid.

I realise you are reluctant to give up any stick to beat Catholics with, however rotten the stick.

 

     
anything