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Author Topic: Hebrews 13:17  (Read 1042 times)

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Offline Rella

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Hebrews 13:17
« on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 08:46:17 »
I posted in the debates forum because there is a question that needs a definitive answer, and likely will be a brouhaha
in responses.  ::shrug::  Being a theological one, should not be up for general discussion... or should it? If so, mods please move it.

NO WORRIES.  Dont panic.I will not be debating, just reading.

I first must thank TC for posting this scripture in another thread. I had completely forgotten about it.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

This does apply to the heads of the church only, correct?  Not to any political leader or to the head of your household?

Then if one is taught all their lives of certain doctrines, sacraments, or ordinances. would that not mean if that person followed the church teachings by way of the clergy teachings and explanations of scripture, ( or anyone else that the church appoints to teach) ...................

and the layman followed to the best of their ability as they have been instructed by the leader(s) of their church that when their end comes, it would be the church leaders who should be held accountable and not the mortal soul, himself   as to his eternal judgment?

 ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 10:19:41 »
The author of Hebrews was referring back 10 verses:

Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

Those are the Leaders of verse 17. 

They will be called into account for what YOU did, good or bad. James has a similar statement:

James 3:1  Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 11:40:23 »
Well, no one can bear the guilt of another person’s sinful actions.  That is true only of Jesus our Mediator.  But the leaders as “stewards” of any assembly CAN be charged and give an account of how they discharged their task of instructing and leading according to the Word of God.  Those who are taught by them are equally responsible and are rewarded or shamed depending on whether they searched the scriptures to see if what the instructor taught was true or not.  (The whole Berean principle.)

Rella, it is not people’s eternal destiny that is at stake in this discussion, but the prospect of gaining rewards or losing them in the afterlife for BELIEVERS ONLY that is being discussed in this Hebrews text.

I’ll make this even more controversial.  The verse actually reads in the Interlinear “for they watch for your souls as account ABOUT TO RENDER;”.

This was an IMMINENT ACCOUNT that was about to be required of those leaders in those “LAST DAYS” (Hebrews 1:2).  And Hebrews was written about AD 64, with some of the saints who were “ABOUT TO INHERIT SALVATION” being ministered to by angels at that time (Hebrews 1:14).   Do the math.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #3 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 06:31:38 »
Quote
Well, no one can bear the guilt of another person’s sinful actions. 
Actually they can.  If it is transgenerational, it is called "iniquity."

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #4 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 07:22:37 »
DaveW, you and I are probably thinking of two totally different concepts.  To actually be able to “bear” someone else’s sins is to provide expiation or atonement for those sins.  Such as mentioned in I Peter 2:24.  “...Who Himself bare our sins in His own body on the tree...”. This atonement that bore our sins can only be provided by a sinless representative - Christ Jesus.

I’m not discussing the trans-generational effects of sin, similar to an alcoholic’s children suffering the consequences of their father’s addiction - perhaps physical abuse or lack of financial support or trauma of various kinds.  Scripture has plenty of this kind of example, such as bastard children, or descendants of Ham, of Esau, of Moab, even of a husband or father forcing a wife or daughter to break a promise concerning a vow, the children of Israel “bearing” the effects of their father’s rebellion and disbelief by 40 years of wandering in the wilderness..etc., etc..  I think this kind of “bearing sin” committed by another person is what you have in mind, yes?  It does not erase the guilt by vicariously providing atonement for it, however.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #5 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 08:02:26 »
Quote
I think this kind of “bearing sin” committed by another person is what you have in mind, yes?  It does not erase the guilt by vicariously providing atonement for it, however.
In general - yes. No one (other than our Lord) can take away sins or atone for them.  But congregational leaders WILL give an account to God for the sins of their congregants.  Scripture is clear on that.  And if they are teaching erroneous doctrines, they will be held accountable for that as well.

What if a pastor or teaching elder teaches something that drives people away from the faith?   Whether it is a white pastor saying that dark skin is the "mark of Cain" (sending blacks away from the gospel) or an elder teaching that "wives submit to your husbands" means every woman is a slave to every male in her life?  (thus driving girls and women away from the gospel) 

Or antisemites teaching either that Jews cannot be saved (Christ killers) or that it is WRONG to share the gospel with them? (since they have a different biblical covenant) 

They will be held accountable for sending people to hell.  What that ultimately looks like I have no idea.

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #6 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 08:56:16 »
Actually they can.  If it is transgenerational, it is called "iniquity."
They bear the consequences of the sins of another; they do not bear the guilt of that sin  -- those are completely different.  God does not hold anyone accountable for the sins of another  --  Period; not the sins of the father, the mother, the grandparents, the great grandparents or even Adam.  The very idea that God would do so is heresy of the worst kind.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #7 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 09:26:30 »
Exodus 34:6
Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;  7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”


Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #8 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 10:01:27 »
Exodus 34:6
Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;  7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”


Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
That is not spiritual condemnation, that is simply physical repercussions arising from the fathers sins.  The child who bears the brunt of a mean drunken father or mother; the child who dies in a car wreck driven by a parent, a grandparent, a neighbor; on and on and on.  It has nothing to do with condemnation versus salvation of the soul.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #9 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 10:17:55 »
Hi DaveW,

The “guilty” being “punished” in those verses is the original offender - the father who begins to see the effects of his sin causing evil consequences in the generations that follow him.  Most of us would be grieved at heart to see our own evil actions causing misery for our own children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren; like David mourning over his dead baby son, and over the death of rebellious Absalom.  This should act as a deterrent when we are tempted to cross the line on God’s commands.

It is not the children who are guilty of the particular original offense, although they suffer consequences of repercussions from that sinful act.  Unless, of course, they voluntarily agree to participate in the same offending sin and thereby incur their own guilt for so doing.

This discussion is also separate from all Adam’s descendants having a sinful nature inherited from their father Adam.  (Although I think 4WD is trying to equate that issue with this one, which scripture does not do.)  We are discussing the issue of guilt for sinful ACTIONS, while the other issue is one of an inherited NATURE.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #10 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 10:20:20 »
Quote
I remember 1968 all too well.  I was in graduate school when all that was going on.  That was just an earlier bunch of Leftist radicals.  What is going on now is nothing more than a follow on to that, but even worse.
The discussion is about church leaders being held responsible before God for their congregants' bad behavior.  IMO the scripture is pretty clear that it does happen.

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #11 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 10:37:23 »
We are discussing the issue of guilt for sinful ACTIONS, while the other issue is one of an inherited NATURE.
The NATURE is inherited; the SIN is not.  But then, Adam's nature was as God created; if Adam had no nature to sin, then he would not have sinned.  There is nothing inherently bad about man's sin nature, human nature is not sin.  The tendency to sin is not itself sin.  God condemns only sinful actions; He does not condemn a sinful nature.

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #12 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 10:47:01 »
The discussion is about church leaders being held responsible before God for their congregants' bad behavior.  IMO the scripture is pretty clear that it does happen.
Do you seriously believe that God would condemn a leader, who otherwise would have gone to heaven, for the bad behavior of any in their congregations?  I think not.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


If you study that chapter carefully you will see that the "work" Paul is speaking of is the result of one's "planting" and "watering".

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #13 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 10:55:52 »
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Do you seriously believe that God would condemn a leader, who otherwise would have gone to heaven, for the bad behavior of any in their congregations?  I think not.
Condemn as to send to hell?  No.  But God could have a variety of disciplinary actions taken against such a person.  Remember the author of Hebrews also says this:

Hebrews 12:5
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;  6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”  7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #14 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 12:30:51 »
Condemn as to send to hell?  No.  But God could have a variety of disciplinary actions taken against such a person.  Remember the author of Hebrews also says this:

Hebrews 12:5
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;  6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”  7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
That God makes use of various situations as discipline doesn't mean that He causes them.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #15 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 14:07:00 »
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That God makes use of various situations as discipline doesn't mean that He causes them.
He causes everything.  You have a problem with that?

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #16 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:40:09 »
He causes everything.  You have a problem with that?
Yes, of Course.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #17 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:54:53 »
The NATURE is inherited; the SIN is not.  But then, Adam's nature was as God created; if Adam had no nature to sin, then he would not have sinned.  There is nothing inherently bad about man's sin nature, human nature is not sin.  The tendency to sin is not itself sin.  God condemns only sinful actions; He does not condemn a sinful nature.
This whole debate is rendered useless by the lack of definitions.

You say nature is inherited.  That makes me think of a person's DNA.  Do we think that there is actual genetic damage that comes out of the parents mis-deeds?  I'm not scientifically-minded enough to answer whether that's possible or not.  Maybe you know.

For the rest, the Bible isn't unclear here.  It lays out that the FLESH part of the man has needs, which give rise to desires, and those desires give occasion to temptation, when we desire things in inappropriate times, places, or manners.

In the case of Adam, he had a need to eat, which became a desire to eat the forbidden fruit, and he failed to self-regulate in the moment he was tempted.

I tend to think of generational iniquity in terms of how we damage each other.  For instance... of course the child of an alcoholic parent will be affected by that alcoholism.  That doesn't make the child an alcoholic.  But it does seem to increase the chances that they will themselves become one.

Jarrod


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Re: Hebrews 13:17
« Reply #18 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 06:05:24 »
When I said nature, I meant human nature, the physical element of the human being.  But I basically agree with what you said there.

 

     
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