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I posted in the debates forum because there is a question that needs a definitive answer, and likely will be a brouhaha
in responses.    Being a theological one, should not be up for general discussion... or should it? If so, mods please move it.

NO WORRIES.  Dont panic.I will not be debating, just reading.

I first must thank TC for posting this scripture in another thread. I had completely forgotten about it.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

This does apply to the heads of the church only, correct?  Not to any political leader or to the head of your household?

Then if one is taught all their lives of certain doctrines, sacraments, or ordinances. would that not mean if that person followed the church teachings by way of the clergy teachings and explanations of scripture, ( or anyone else that the church appoints to teach) ...................

and the layman followed to the best of their ability as they have been instructed by the leader(s) of their church that when their end comes, it would be the church leaders who should be held accountable and not the mortal soul, himself   as to his eternal judgment?

 

Well, no one can bear the guilt of another person’s sinful actions.  That is true only of Jesus our Mediator.  But the leaders as “stewards” of any assembly CAN be charged and give an account of how they discharged their task of instructing and leading according to the Word of God.  Those who are taught by them are equally responsible and are rewarded or shamed depending on whether they searched the scriptures to see if what the instructor taught was true or not.  (The whole Berean principle.)

Rella, it is not people’s eternal destiny that is at stake in this discussion, but the prospect of gaining rewards or losing them in the afterlife for BELIEVERS ONLY that is being discussed in this Hebrews text.

I’ll make this even more controversial.  The verse actually reads in the Interlinear “for they watch for your souls as account ABOUT TO RENDER;”.

This was an IMMINENT ACCOUNT that was about to be required of those leaders in those “LAST DAYS” (Hebrews 1:2).  And Hebrews was written about AD 64, with some of the saints who were “ABOUT TO INHERIT SALVATION” being ministered to by angels at that time (Hebrews 1:14).   Do the math.

DaveW, you and I are probably thinking of two totally different concepts.  To actually be able to “bear” someone else’s sins is to provide expiation or atonement for those sins.  Such as mentioned in I Peter 2:24.  “...Who Himself bare our sins in His own body on the tree...”. This atonement that bore our sins can only be provided by a sinless representative - Christ Jesus.

I’m not discussing the trans-generational effects of sin, similar to an alcoholic’s children suffering the consequences of their father’s addiction - perhaps physical abuse or lack of financial support or trauma of various kinds.  Scripture has plenty of this kind of example, such as bastard children, or descendants of Ham, of Esau, of Moab, even of a husband or father forcing a wife or daughter to break a promise concerning a vow, the children of Israel “bearing” the effects of their father’s rebellion and disbelief by 40 years of wandering in the wilderness..etc., etc..  I think this kind of “bearing sin” committed by another person is what you have in mind, yes?  It does not erase the guilt by vicariously providing atonement for it, however.

Actually they can.  If it is transgenerational, it is called "iniquity."

They bear the consequences of the sins of another; they do not bear the guilt of that sin  -- those are completely different.  God does not hold anyone accountable for the sins of another  --  Period; not the sins of the father, the mother, the grandparents, the great grandparents or even Adam.  The very idea that God would do so is heresy of the worst kind.

Exodus 34:6
Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;  7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”


Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

That is not spiritual condemnation, that is simply physical repercussions arising from the fathers sins.  The child who bears the brunt of a mean drunken father or mother; the child who dies in a car wreck driven by a parent, a grandparent, a neighbor; on and on and on.  It has nothing to do with condemnation versus salvation of the soul.

I remember 1968 all too well.  I was in graduate school when all that was going on.  That was just an earlier bunch of Leftist radicals.  What is going on now is nothing more than a follow on to that, but even worse.

The discussion is about church leaders being held responsible before God for their congregants' bad behavior.  IMO the scripture is pretty clear that it does happen.

The discussion is about church leaders being held responsible before God for their congregants' bad behavior.  IMO the scripture is pretty clear that it does happen.

Do you seriously believe that God would condemn a leader, who otherwise would have gone to heaven, for the bad behavior of any in their congregations?  I think not.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


If you study that chapter carefully you will see that the "work" Paul is speaking of is the result of one's "planting" and "watering".

Condemn as to send to hell?  No.  But God could have a variety of disciplinary actions taken against such a person.  Remember the author of Hebrews also says this:

Hebrews 12:5
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;  6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”  7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.

That God makes use of various situations as discipline doesn't mean that He causes them.

He causes everything.  You have a problem with that?

Yes, of Course.

When I said nature, I meant human nature, the physical element of the human being.  But I basically agree with what you said there.