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Author Topic: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??  (Read 546 times)

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Offline dan p

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IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 14:03:57 »
 Hi to all and in  John 20:22  it show  that Jesus is  speaking to the  disciples and Jesus says to them   RECEIVE   YE  HOLY  SPIRIT  !!

 Then in verse 23  says ,  WHOSOEVER  SINS  ye  Remit , they are  Remitted  ,  whosoever   SINS  ye    RETAIN  , they are  RETAINED !!

 So when could  man  FORGIVE  SINS  ??

 And  HOW  can that be  DONE  ??

 Why can not  MAN  do  this TODAY ?

Remember that  Heb 6:1  we are to  FORSAKE  the  DOCTRINES  of  Christ  !

What say  you ?

 dan p

notreligus

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #1 on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 18:02:41 »
Notes from the ESV:

JOHN— NOTE ON 20: 23 The expressions they are forgiven and it is withheld both represent perfect-tense verbs in Greek and could also be translated, “they have been forgiven” and “it has been withheld,” since the perfect gives the sense of completed past action with continuing results in the present. The idea is not that individual Christians or churches have authority on their own to forgive or not forgive people, but rather that as the church proclaims the gospel message of forgiveness of sins in the power of the Holy Spirit (see v. 22), it proclaims that those who believe in Jesus have their sins forgiven, and that those who do not believe in him do not have their sins forgiven— which simply reflects what God in heaven has already done (cf. note on Matt. 16: 19).
____________________________________________ ____________________________________________ ___________

You are confused about the Book of Hebrews.  There's no such directive that we leave the teachings of Christ behind.  We are to leave the elementary things behind.   For example, an elementary thing like water baptism is turned in to a major doctrine for the New Testament church at a site like this which is oriented toward denominations like the Churches of Christ who make water baptism a major doctrine when it's not presented that way in the Scriptures.

The theme of Hebrews is "Jesus is better."  Chapter Six is about those who left the Law behind at first, but returned to their old ways of being under the authority of Moses and the Mosaic Law.  They failed to see that Jesus Christ had brought about a better covenant - the New Covenant.   The Old Testament Law brought condemnation.   Christ said that His yoke was easy and his burden was light.   Christ Himself had done what needed to be done to reconcile mankind back to the Father.   Read all of the Book of Hebrews.   The book is a directive to the Jews who would not leave the Law behind, and it is also a directive to anyone who does not understand the New Covenant and the new Great High Priest, Mediator, and Intercessor.   It is Christ's righteousness that has reconciled us to God Almighty.   We cannot save anyone, including ourselves.   

Offline dan p

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #2 on: Sat Mar 30, 2019 - 18:23:35 »
  And the only  verb that is in the  Greek   PERFECT  TENSE   are the words  THEY ARE  RETAINED   and just means that they refused   repentance , fron the point on they are  LOST  FOREVER  !!

 In John 20:22  where Jesus  says  RECEIVE YE / LAMBANO   is IN THE  SECOND  AORIST  TENSE  or  a one  time  action to  REMIT  SINS  during there life  time and this  authority  was  not  transportable !!

 So how did nthe  disciples  REMIT  SINS ??

 dan p

revc

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #3 on: Sun Mar 31, 2019 - 16:03:53 »
Dan,  why should anyone answer anymore of your posts when you refuse to answer posts that ask you to deal with certain things?  You make claims that are challenged and refuted and you just ignore them and move on to your next error.  You are unteachable, and an apparent waste of time. 

RC

Offline dan p

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #4 on: Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 12:28:23 »
So , yell me what did I not  address  and I agreed with you that The  PERFECT TENSE  IS  USED  and there are 3  verbs in verse 23  ,  and the SECOND  AORIST  TENSE  and also  the  PRESENT  TENSE  and the  AORIST   TENSE  began during then apostles  Peters  time and the  CONTINUOUS  action also during  Peter's monistry !!

Then I addressed   Heb 6:1 and 2  where Israel is to     LEAVE .  AND  FORSAKE   the  Doctrines  of  Christ  and the that    LEAVINGS also include  BAPTISMS and the  text says so  !!

dan p

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #4 on: Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 12:28:23 »



Offline soterion

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #5 on: Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 15:26:05 »
So , yell me what did I not  address  and I agreed with you that The  PERFECT TENSE  IS  USED  and there are 3  verbs in verse 23  ,  and the SECOND  AORIST  TENSE  and also  the  PRESENT  TENSE  and the  AORIST   TENSE  began during then apostles  Peters  time and the  CONTINUOUS  action also during  Peter's monistry !!

Then I addressed   Heb 6:1 and 2  where Israel is to     LEAVE .  AND  FORSAKE   the  Doctrines  of  Christ  and the that    LEAVINGS also include  BAPTISMS and the  text says so  !!

dan p

dan p,

You didn't respond to my explanation of Hebrews 6:1-2 in your DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ?? thread.

In addition to what I said there, keep in mind that the list of things the writer is talking about were believed in and practiced by those particular Christians who were previously practicing Judaism. Note that it is baptisms (plural), not just baptism. This more than likely refers to ritual Jewish cleansings, and not necessarily the baptism Jesus commanded for all.

Regardless of anything else, the Hebrew writer is telling the readers to move on past those things and mature in their understanding of Christ and in their practice of His will, in particular to how they face persecution due to their being converted to Christ. The letter is a warning against falling away.

The writer is not telling them in any way to forsake the doctrines of Christ.

Offline dan p

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #6 on: Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 17:36:26 »
  So , what does  LEAVING /   the  Doctrines of Christ then mean !!

 The  Greek  word that is used in  Heb 6:2   BAPTISMS /  BAPTISMOS   is the  same  Greek word used in Heb 9:10  BAPTISMOS !!

 And we know that Israel  rejected their  MESSIAH and  killed Him and  Israel was  set a  aside , YES  or  NO  ?

 So how  did  the   DISCIPLES  REMIT  SINS , which you have  avoided  and tell us all  HOW ??

 It is  obvious that John 20:22, 23   is  speaking to  Jews  and   NOT  the  Body of  Christ !!

 dan p

Offline soterion

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #7 on: Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 18:53:36 »
  So , what does  LEAVING /   the  Doctrines of Christ then mean !!

 The  Greek  word that is used in  Heb 6:2   BAPTISMS /  BAPTISMOS   is the  same  Greek word used in Heb 9:10  BAPTISMOS !!


My last post above and the post on the following link answers your questions about Hebrews 6:1-2.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates/did-paul-water-baptize/msg1055135299/#msg1055135299

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And we know that Israel  rejected their  MESSIAH and  killed Him and  Israel was  set a  aside , YES  or  NO  ?


That has nothing to do with what the Hebrew writer is saying to his target readers in Hebrews 6.

Offline soterion

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #8 on: Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 19:23:34 »
So how  did  the   DISCIPLES  REMIT  SINS , which you have  avoided  and tell us all  HOW ??

 It is  obvious that John 20:22, 23   is  speaking to  Jews  and   NOT  the  Body of  Christ !!

 dan p

Actually the passage has Jesus speaking to the apostles, and I believe it would be going too far to say that this applies to anybody else.

The purpose of the giving of the Spirit in verse 22 is tied to what He is stating in the following verse. Nobody but God can forgive sins. What Jesus was stating to the apostles was not the authority to forgive or not forgive. Rather, it was the ability, by the Spirit, to know God's will in the moment, regarding sins being forgiven or not. At least, that's how I see it. When the apostles proclaimed sins being forgiven or retained, they were stating what God had already decided.

Another view on this is that the apostles were given to proclaim the terms of forgiveness, or the lack thereof, with authority. Basically, a pumped-up preaching of the gospel. ::preachit::

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #9 on: Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 19:56:16 »
The purpose of the giving of the Spirit in verse 22 is tied to what He is stating in the following verse. Nobody but God can forgive sins. What Jesus was stating to the apostles was not the authority to forgive or not forgive. Rather, it was the ability, by the Spirit, to know God's will in the moment, regarding sins being forgiven or not. At least, that's how I see it. When the apostles proclaimed sins being forgiven or retained, they were stating what God had already decided.

I think that is insightful.

Offline dan p

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #10 on: Tue Apr 02, 2019 - 13:52:32 »
 So in John 20:22  Jesus gives the  apostles the  POWER  OF  HOLY SPIRIT !!

 Then in verse 23 , Whosoever   SINS  YE  REMIT , they are  REMITTED UNTO THEM   ,  and you said that is not true ?

 You say that only God can forgive  SINS  , yet the  Pharisee's  house in Luke 7:36-50  ,  also questioned Jesus's authority to forgive sin as you have done !!

 Notice Acts 2:38 Then  Peter   SAID / PHEMI    (  which is in the  Greek  Imperfect tense  and Peter  stopped repeating it bY Acts 28:28  )   REPENT / METAMOEO     ( and is in the  AORIST  TENSE  and is Peter's ministry  a  one time ministry )   an be  BAPTIZED   (  and  here Peter is   WATER  BAPTIZING    everyn one of you in THE  NAME  OF  JESUS  CHRIST  , for the  FORGIVENESS  of  SINS  (  here  Peter  is   REMITTING  SINS   , and ye   SHALL  RECEIVE / LAMBANO    which is in the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE   and the   FUTUREN TENSE is in  MARK 16:15-18  which is called  by  SCHOLARS   the   FAR  VIEW !!

Since  Israel killed there  MESSIAH  Israel was  set  ASIDE  as written in 2  Cor 3 :13-16  , and  Isa 6  and Luke 13:6-9  and in Matt 3:10  !!

Acts  is called the  NEAR  VIEW !!

Because of Israel rejection of Christ , He  appointed another  apostle  called  Paul  with a new  message , called the  DISPENSATION  of the Grace of  God ,  Col 1:25  , 1  Cor 9:17  ,  Eph 3:2  !!

 BAPTISIM  is how they  REMITTED  SINS !!

 dan p

Offline soterion

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #11 on: Tue Apr 02, 2019 - 14:52:03 »
So in John 20:22  Jesus gives the  apostles the  POWER  OF  HOLY SPIRIT !!

 Then in verse 23 , Whosoever   SINS  YE  REMIT , they are  REMITTED UNTO THEM   ,  and you said that is not true ?

The apostles did not have the power of the Holy Spirit. They were given the Spirit to do what Jesus told them to do. I never said that what Jesus gave them to do was not true, but rather your interpretation of it is not true.

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You say that only God can forgive  SINS  , yet the  Pharisee's  house in Luke 7:36-50  ,  also questioned Jesus's authority to forgive sin as you have done !!

Only God can forgive sins. That is an absolute rock solid truth. Now, since Jesus is God, then He can forgive.

Quote
Notice Acts 2:38 Then  Peter   SAID / PHEMI    (  which is in the  Greek  Imperfect tense  and Peter  stopped repeating it bY Acts 28:28  )   REPENT / METAMOEO     ( and is in the  AORIST  TENSE  and is Peter's ministry  a  one time ministry )   an be  BAPTIZED   (  and  here Peter is   WATER  BAPTIZING    everyn one of you in THE  NAME  OF  JESUS  CHRIST  , for the  FORGIVENESS  of  SINS  (  here  Peter  is   REMITTING  SINS   , and ye   SHALL  RECEIVE / LAMBANO    which is in the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE   and the   FUTUREN TENSE is in  MARK 16:15-18  which is called  by  SCHOLARS   the   FAR  VIEW !!

Peter was not remitting sins; he was declaring the terms of forgiveness by which God will forgive according to His will.

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Since  Israel killed there  MESSIAH  Israel was  set  ASIDE  as written in 2  Cor 3 :13-16  , and  Isa 6  and Luke 13:6-9  and in Matt 3:10  !!

Acts  is called the  NEAR  VIEW !!

Because of Israel rejection of Christ , He  appointed another  apostle  called  Paul  with a new  message , called the  DISPENSATION  of the Grace of  God ,  Col 1:25  , 1  Cor 9:17  ,  Eph 3:2  !!

 BAPTISIM  is how they  REMITTED  SINS !!

 dan p

If Israel was set aside, there would be no offer of salvation in Christ to them.

Paul's message was not a different message from Peter or anybody else. Peter and Paul both preached the grace of God offered to all through Jesus Christ.

Offline dan p

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Re: IS JOHN SPEAKING TO ISRAEL OR TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ??
« Reply #12 on: Tue Apr 02, 2019 - 15:04:03 »
  And  Acts 19 and 20 I believe says that  Israel had their  opportunity and she was  set aside !!

 Please show a  verse where Peter  preached the same message as Paul !!

 We see in Gal 2:12-14   and in verse 13 and the  rest of the Jews were   PRETENDED  with  Peter, so that even  Barnabas  was  carried  away with their  HYPOCRISY  !!

 dan p
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 02, 2019 - 15:07:12 by dan p »

 

     
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