ENDOR – YESTERDAY AND TODAY
IMPORTANT LESSONS FOR ALL OF US.
➢ PopeADope opened this thread. He has confessed his relations with the dead people.
➢ Some members of the forum gave him good biblical advice.
➢ I appreciated the effort of CHOSENONE to save him from that dangerous activity.
➢ Finally, both PopeADope and the others accepted the idea that Samuel is not dead, but even alive… However, we need to verify this conclusion.
➢ I didn’t come here to criticize, but to help my brothers and sisters…. However it is necessary to say that we have to know better the character of God.
➢ We can find here some important lessons regarding this thread.
LESSON ONE:
MeMyself said to PopeADope:
“I can't understand WHY you need this? Jesus is totally and wholly accessible to you, and we have the Word of God.”
The answer is that every apostasy is accompanied by the magic of satan. For instance, when the Galatians adopted a false gospel (salvation by faith plus the works of the law), Paul wrote to them: ”O foolish Galatians! Who has BEWITCHED you that you should not obey the truth…” – Gal. 3:1. And when Eve discussed with satan in Eden, he has also BEWITCHED her. His magic changed her mind and finally she didn’t believe God, but satan. When PopeADope began to discuss with the spirits of the dead (that is an apostasy!) the magic of satan changed his mind:
[1] Therefore he declared: “I don't see anything in Scripture that condemns the idea that the souls in heaven can assist us.” (However we have to say the Bible condemns it!...)
[2] The result was he trusts his own reasonings and feelings. (Satan has power to deceive our feelings!).
[3] In conclusion, we must know the Bible very well, and how to put any religious teaching under the biblical test.
Why the relations with dead people are so dangerous?
• Because being bewitched, you will accept a wrong way for your life. (Think about Eve; also Deut. 13:1-5).
• Because it will be difficult to be convinced that you are going on a wrong way. (This is the case of PopeADope).
• Because the discussion with the dead are a real contact with satan (see below).
LESSON TWO:
We must defend the truth only with the truth! The Bible and Jesus are the truth (John 17:17; John 14:6). The Holy Spirit, Who inspired the Bible, is named “the Spirit of truth” – John 14:17. In essence we must defend the truth with the Bible verses, NOT with our own reasons… Therefore Paul said in Heb. 12:13, “Mark out a straight path for your feet so that those who are weak and lame will not fall but become strong” NLT.
For example, consider this conclusion written on the thread:
“There is one somewhat confusing account in Scripture that seems to be the 'exception to the rule' in 1 Samuel 28:1–25. After the death of the prophet Samuel, King Saul was terrified of the threatening Philistine army and desperate to know the Lord's will. In his helpless desperation, he resorted to consulting with a medium, the witch of Endor.
“Using demonic powers of sorcery, she called up Samuel. But when he appeared, even she was startled, for she had expected a satanic apparition and not Samuel himself. Shocked that God had intervened for Saul, the witch of Endor knew this "spirit coming up out of the ground" was not the result of her demonic conjuring.
“So, Samuel's appearance here can only be explained as the unprecedented intervention of the Lord in response to Saul's hopeless desperation, permitting him one firm and final encounter with the prophet. The event in no way indicates God's endorsement of talking to the dead or consulting with mediums.
“In fact, Saul is condemned for these actions in 1 Chronicles 10:13-14: ‘Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.’" (NIV)
Now, think about that quotation:
[a] When we don’t understand all details of the biblical passage, our conclusion is wrong. We do not find in the Bible any allusion regarding that “exception”. Am I right? In fact that “exception to the rule” means a compromise on what God declared to be sin. And what is that “rule”? “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.” (Ex. 22:18) Please compare with: “No, I will not break my covenant; I will not take back a single word I said.” (Ps. 89:34 NLT). “For I am the Lord, I do not change.” Mal. 3:6. If you continue to read my post, you will understand that doesn’t exist any exception in this regard…
Think about this: If the Lord “permitted” that meeting with Samuel, why the Bible declares that "Saul died because he … even CONSULTED A MEDIUM FOR GUIDANCE”! Is it true that the Lord first “permits” or even brings the prophet there, and then He let Saul be killed for what He first permitted and even helped for it? Our God hasn’t such a character…
[c] Did the witch know that the apparition of Samuel was not the result of her demonic conjuring? This is not the declaration of the Bible. Do you believe that God commands, “You shall not permit a sorceress to live” (Ex. 22:18), and then He comes to Endor to cooperate with the witch? And if that “Samuel” was even satan (see below), did God cooperate with him? If you believe that God wanted to answer Saul, why He did not use His own ways in this regard?
Going to Endor, Samuel answered questions and demonstrated that he knew…. knew…. knew… But was it true? Was his knowledge a sure proof that he was alive? I assure you that this belief opens a large door for that “Samuel” to visit you, too….
A MODERN “SHE-SAMUEL” AND A MODERN “ENDOR”
A large meeting was being held at the popular Foresters Hall in the heart of London’s West End. A couple were invited to participate there. The couple said they had never attended anything of the kind before and were a little skeptical about the fantastic claims the lecturer made for himself. Arriving at the hall, they found three seats at the back.
The lecturer began by declaring that the material world in which we live is surrounded by invisible powers as real as any¬thing we see or feel. He said the unseen forces are friendly and eager to help us. "Death," he said, "is not really death as most people think of it; it is rather our entrance into the invisible world."
Pausing, he looked slowly over his audience and said: "Among the many newcomers here tonight are a lady and gentleman who arrived from Cape Town, South Africa, on April 6." He pointed to the back row. "Their name is coming through now," he said. "Yes, a Mr. and Mrs. John R—."
This was the very couple that had come with some misgivings. And the lecturer continued: "Less than six weeks ago the beloved sister of Mrs. R— passed over to the other side." Without hesitation he added: "In this morning's mail Mrs. R— received a long airmail envelope with a letter and an enclosed snapshot of her sister."
"How on earth could he know that?" the lady whispered. Continuing, he said: "This picture was taken on a beach at Cape Town two days prior to her death, which was the result of an automobile accident. And furthermore, Mrs. R— has that picture with her now. It is in the right-hand pocket of her brown handbag!" With trembling hands the lady opened her bag. Sure enough, the photo and the letter were there. Surprised beyond belief, she took out the letter and the picture which had arrived that morning.
"And how do I know these things?" he continued. "Because, madam, your sister is standing right here beside me! She is on the platform at this very moment!"
Unbelievable, you say? But it happened! Then the lecturer began to convey a few comforting messages, each laden with personal information known only to these two sisters, one of whom had been buried five and a half weeks earlier.
The lady and her husband were no longer skeptical. They were sure there is an invisible world. No one could persuade them otherwise. The evidence was overwhelming. But what explanation can we give? It is easy to label it "clairvoyance," "telepathy," or "paranormal cognition." But that does not explain it. Those are mere words, not explanations. And scores of experiences could be cited. What would you have thought if something like that had happened to you?
Are you with me? This modern dead “she-Samuel” knew also very many things… But was she even the sister of Mrs. R? And is it true that Samuel came to Endor? The Bible says, NO! (See below!). Let’s go to the Bible for the true answer…. In fact, David said about his dead son: “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I SHALL GO TO HIM, BUT HE SHALL NOT RETURN TO ME.” (2 Sam. 12:22.23).
Please consider the event from Endor:
7Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at Endor.” 8So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and BRING UP for me the one I shall name to you.” 9Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?” 10And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying, “As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” 11Then the woman said, “Whom shall I BRING UP for you?” And he said, “BRING UP SAMUEL for me.” 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” 13And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ASCENDING OUT OF THE EARTH.” 14So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is COMING UP, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by BRINGING ME UP?” And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.” 16Then Samuel said: “Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17“And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18“Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19“Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons WILL BE WITH ME. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.” 1 Sam. 28:7-19
DID SAMUEL COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN? NO! Look in your Bible:
THE WITCH: “Whom shall I bring UP for you?” (11)
SAUL: “Bring UP Samuel for me” (11)
THE WOMAN: “I saw a spirit ASCENDING OUT OF THE EARTH”. “An old man is coming UP.” (13-14)
WHERE DOES THE HOLY SAMUEL DWELL?
Saul committed suicide (See 1 Sam. 31:4.) and Samuel, foretelling Saul's death, declares, “tomorrow you and your sons WILL BE WITH ME.” (1 Sam. 28:19). Therefore, where does the holy Samuel dwell, if the suicide Saul was to be WITH HIM? In heaven? NO! In the hell? NO! In their graves?... OF COURSE! That is the only one place where they can be together.
HOW DOES THE STORY DESCRIBE SAMUEL?
Some say Samuel was a disembodied soul and others say: No, he arrived with a body like Moses' and Elijah’s bodies at Jesus' transfiguration. So what is the truth? Note that the witch called Samuel “a SPIRIT” (1 Sam. 28:13), but Luke 9:30 called Moses and Elijah “two MEN” (not spirits).
The medium described "Samuel" as "an old man... covered with a mantle", or a robe. Does an immortal spirit take on a body? How did the witch know that he is an old man? She saw his face, of course. And she saw its mantle… In this case, what is the origin of that spirit’s body?
I don’t believe that the devil has power to raise the dead, and I don’t believe that God answered the request of that witch who was under the divine death sentence for practicing sorcery. (See Lev. 20:27; Deut. 18:10, 11.) In fact, if the spirit had a physical body, it wasn’t a real spirit of the dead people.
If the dead are resurrected from their graves and we believe that Samuel was resurrected in a physical body from his grave, we have to resolve an important problem: “And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and BURIED HIM IN HIS HOUSE AT RAMAH.” (1 Sam. 25:1; 28:3). Therefore, if Samuel was resurrected from his grave (Ramah), how do you explain that he went out FROM THE EARTH AT ENDOR? And if we believe that Samuel came to Endor as a spirit, we have another problem. Did he need a mantle? Had he got a beard? How did the witch know that he was an old man?
Was Samuel a resurrected man? In this case I am asking: Could the witch really disturb the rest of God's faithful prophet? Would God send a prophetic message through a medium – a condemned witch (Deut 18:10; Lev 20:6) – especially while He already refused Saul guidance via ap¬proved methods (1 Sam 28:6)?
IS IT POSIBLE THAT SATAN CAME IN THE PLACE OF SAMUEL?
[1]. Note that Saul didn’t see Samuel because he inquired "What did you see?" and "What is his form?" If Samuel had really been there, why would not Saul have seen him? The witch described him as an old man with a mantle, and then Saul “PERCEIVED that it was Samuel” (v. 14). In Hebrew, the word "perceived" doesn’t mean "saw." The meaning is “understood”, or “concluded”; it was a result of the description given by the witch, that Samuel was present.
[2]. Note that the first words of that mysterious Samuel were a warning. He tried to protect the witch and told her that she was in danger because Saul was there... (v. 12). Can we believe that Samuel changed his mind and protected a sinful witch? NO! THAT WAS SATAN...
[3] Verse 13 says that the entity summoned by the woman was an ELOHIM - a Hebrew word never used for the dead; it normally refers to a supernatural being, either DIVINE or DEMONIC.
[4] Saul answered Samuel, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor...” (v. 15). Can we believe that now God sent His prophet to answer Saul? NO! Then, who is that “Samuel”? Satan, of course.
[5] The witch said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. („he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.” – NIV). He had worshiped before something he could not even see. He worshiped satan...
The passage is a dramatic demonstration of where rebellion against God ultimately leads. I believe that the whole affair was a demonic delusion, reminding of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12. “... the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to LOVE THE TRUTH and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.“ – NIV
[6] The Samuel's prediction was false. Saul was not handed over to the Philistines, but committed suicide; and his body, though taken, was recovered by the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead (1 Sam 31:12, 13). Also, not “ALL” of Saul's sons died the next day; ("Ish-Bosheth son of Saul" appears in 2 Sam 2:8-10). Through contrast, the real Samuel spoke Yahweh's word accurately “The LORD was with him, and everything Samuel said proved to be reliable.” (1 Sam 3:19-21 NLT).
[7] The message of that mysterious Samuel was calculated to burden Saul with guilt and fear, crushing any possible hope or repentance. The next day Saul commits suicide (31:4, 5). Does that message reflect God's char¬acter? NO!
WHY DOES THE STORY SPEAK ABOUT "SAMUEL" IF HE WAS NOT REALLY THERE?
For instance, the Bible speaks about sunrise and sunset, but those are only appearances… The Bible narrative describes the spiritualistic meeting from Endor in terms of the suppositions of the witch and of Saul. This is a literary rule known as the language of appearance. When the story says "Samuel," we have to understand that it was simply the apparition of devil and they – the witch and Saul - supposed was Samuel.
Saul vowed in the Name of God, who had for¬bidden sorcery, that nothing would happen to the witch: “But Saul took an oath in the name of the LORD and promised, “As surely as the LORD lives, nothing bad will happen to you for doing this.” (verse 10). What irony! Saul was both lawmaker and lawbreaker! When the prophet had been alive Saul had refused to heed him. Now he asked "Samuel's" guid¬ance from the grave.
It is interesting that earlier Saul's kingdom had begun with a meal provided by a prophet -- Samuel (1 Samuel 9). Now Saul's kingdom was ending with a meal provided by a false prophetic voice – the witch... (v.24.25).
That meal doesn’t reflect the woman’s kindness, because the writer describes her killing the animal not with the verb "to butcher" (tabach, cf. 1 Sam 25:11), but "to slaughter for sacrifice" (zabach). She performs a "cultic ritual slaughter." So her seeming kindness actually leads Saul into an act of pagan worship. This explains why at first Saul did not want to eat (28:23).
What do you think: Is this story a warning for our days? If satan personified Samuel, can he personify our relatives, or Mary – the mother of Jesus - or even Jesus? How can we make the Bible our shield in this regard?
Topic: Thread of the loving dead (Read 2052 times)