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Offline JERRY C

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LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« on: Sun Apr 12, 2015 - 20:39:06 »
LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL

(overheard at a funeral)


   “What are you giggling about?  He’s dead”

   “Well, sister, here we are again, ‘two-for-one’ deal?!  Martha, it broke my heart the first time; but, somehow it’s different this time.”

   “Yes, Mary, my dear sister.  At least we still have each other.  And we have lots of friends.  And they all loved our brother, Lazarus!  God rest his soul, again.”

   “Oh, it’s so much more than all that!  They all saw in our brother a marvelous hope, that this is not the end of the line, but just a rest stop.”

   “Mary, Mary, you have mined the gold of the heart of this day!  This hole is but a portal.  Just like before, He will command, ‘Come forth!’ but He will not restrict the command!  We will ALL come forth!”

   “Martha, Martha, maybe I will nickname you ‘Maranatha’!  That day will not come soon enough!”

   “Mary, If I go next, bury me in this tomb, also.  When Jesus call us out, I want to walk out with our dear brother, Lazarus.”

   “Deal!  All three of us shall walk out holding hands with our arms raised in victory and praise!”

   “O.K. friends, y’all can roll the stone back shut, for now…!”




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LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« on: Sun Apr 12, 2015 - 20:39:06 »

Offline JERRY C

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #1 on: Sun Apr 12, 2015 - 20:43:19 »
 ::giggle::


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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #1 on: Sun Apr 12, 2015 - 20:43:19 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #2 on: Fri Mar 31, 2017 - 12:19:52 »
This is a very creative piece of fiction, and well-written.

Unfortunately, it is based on something that never happened.  Lazarus never died again, because Jesus never did a half-baked job on his resurrections.  The condition of the human body in the resurrected state is such that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to die again.  If you are of the opinion that it can die twice, then you have opened the door to admit that Jesus might die twice - and that is strictly rejected in scripture (Romans 6:9-10).  Lazarus was not a case of a resuscitation, either.  After 4 days, there was no doubt this was a dead man. 

A pity this author could not exercise their writing expertise on a more truthful presentation of the facts.

Online 4WD

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #3 on: Fri Mar 31, 2017 - 13:37:04 »

This is a very creative piece of fiction, and well-written.

Unfortunately, it is based on something that never happened.  Lazarus never died again, because Jesus never did a half-baked job on his resurrections.  The condition of the human body in the resurrected state is such that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to die again.  If you are of the opinion that it can die twice, then you have opened the door to admit that Jesus might die twice - and that is strictly rejected in scripture (Romans 6:9-10).  Lazarus was not a case of a resuscitation, either.  After 4 days, there was no doubt this was a dead man. 

A pity this author could not exercise their writing expertise on a more truthful presentation of the facts.

It is a pity that you do not understand the difference between being raised from the dead and the resurrection when Jesus comes again.  The two are not related at all.

1Co 15:35  But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36  You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
1Co 15:37  and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
1Co 15:38  But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
1Co 15:40  There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1Co 15:41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Co 15:43  it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.


Lazarus was not resurrected; he was raised from the dead.  His old body was returned to life.  So of course he died again.  If he didn't then where is he?

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #3 on: Fri Mar 31, 2017 - 13:37:04 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 31, 2017 - 18:50:06 »
4 WD  -  Of course the state of a resurrected body and that of one raised from the dead are the same thing.  To say otherwise is ridiculous.

Anytime a resurrection was performed in the scripture, whether by a prophet in the OT or by Christ and the disciples in the NT, or those raised along with Christ in Matthew 27:52-53 - if they were a child of God, then that resurrected body was a glorified body of incorruption.  By definition, incorruptible means that it cannot experience decay ever again. 

You say "So of course he died again." (speaking of Lazarus)  That is a presumption based only on tradition.  Actually, there are no scripture verses that can be pulled up that say Lazarus died again.  Or any historical sources, either.  On the other side, there are several references we can lay our fingers on that DO prove we are appointed to die ONCE - not twice.

Was that a serious question about where Lazarus is now?  If it was, then you may be interested in the following:


Lazarus was mentioned in John several times as being loved by Jesus.  ("He whom thou lovest is dead",  "Behold, how He loved him!",  "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister, and Lazarus", etc. from John 11.)  We last hear of Lazarus "reclining at the table with Him" in John 12:2, after which he is not mentioned again by that name.  But we do encounter a "beloved" individual in the same close proximity to Christ in the very next chapter 13.   

Lazarus, therefore, was "the beloved disciple", who we find again to be leaning on Jesus' breast at the last Supper, where others were present besides the twelve disciples (John 13:23).

Lazarus, the "disciple whom Jesus loved", was one of the 2 "other disciples" in the boat who were fishing with Peter, James and John the sons of Zebedee, Thomas, and Nathanael on the morning after Christ's resurrection (John 21:2,3 compared with v. 7).  So the "the disciple whom Jesus loved" could not possibly be John the son of Zebedee, because they are mentioned separately.

Lazarus is the Greek rendering of "Eleazar", a name which is typically used for priests.

Lazarus, being a priest living in Bethany (within a couple miles of Jerusalem for easy access to the temple), was only able to enter into the high priest's palace because he was "known to the high priest" as one of them (John 18:15).  An ordinary individual would not have been permitted access.  As a priest, he was aware of particular details of the high priest's family (John 18:13), his servants, especially Malchus' name (John 18:10,26), Caiphas' prophecy about Jesus (John 11:49-50, 18:14), and the priests' motives for not entering Pilate's judgment hall, which would have rendered the high priest unclean (John 18:28).

Lazarus' full name, (according to a letter from Clement to Theodore regarding additional evidence for the gospel of Mark), is JOHN ELEAZAR, whom he refers to as the one Jesus raised from the tomb, and was present in the Garden of Gethsemane, dressed in a garment of fine white linen.

All this and other scriptures which I have left out lead me to believe that JOHN ELEAZAR is LAZARUS, who was the author of the book of John...and also Revelation.  At the very end of the book of John, it has an appendix written by an "editor" of sorts, giving credit for the original material to John, ending with a rather curious comment.  Speaking of "the disciple whom Jesus loved", it says, "This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: AND WE KNOW THAT HIS TESTIMONY IS TRUE."  How could this "editor" claim so confidently that his audience believed without a doubt that whatever the "beloved" disciple wrote was the truth?  I believe that a man resurrected from the dead, without the slightest possibility of ever sinning or telling a lie again (i.e. Lazarus), would be an unquestioned source of truth for any believer who knew the story of his resurrection.  And why would an "editor" even be needed to close out the book of John?  Could it be that the beloved disciple was not around to do so himself, possibly because he was otherwise occupied on the island of Patmos at the time? (which was around AD 59-60 when Revelation was being written)

When I claim that John Eleazar (a.k.a Lazarus) also wrote Revelation, I do so using a background story we have for John.  A record by Tertullian states that John, before he was sent to the island of Patmos off the coast of Ephesus, was unsuccessfully boiled in oil in an attempt to martyr him.  When that had no effect at all on him, he was then sent to Patmos.  Tertullian's record was originally included in Foxe's Book of Martyrs, but was later removed in subsequent editions.  Ordinarily, I would be cautious of this story' miraculous claim.  However, if the particular John who wrote Revelation was really John Eleazar (a.k.a. Lazarus), then it makes perfect sense that you can't kill a resurrected person by any means - boiling oil included.  So it would not be such a miraculous story at all, but simple proof that the state of a resurrected body is such that it cannot possibly be brought to corruption ever again.

So, 4WD, to get back to your question, "...where is he?", if Lazarus (a.k.a. John Eleazar) never died again?  He was one of the "living and remaining" ones that I Thessalonians 4:15,17 spoke of; those who would be taken to heaven along with the newly-resurrected saints at Christ's coming.  Certainly Lazarus could qualify as one of the LIVING after his resurrection by Christ.  And we can believe Christ's comments to Peter about the "beloved disciple" (John Eleazar, a.k.a. Lazarus) in John 21:22 ESV where he says, "If it is my will that HE REMAIN UNTIL I COME, what is that to you? You follow me!"  So, Lazarus / John Eleazar was one of the "LIVING AND REMAINING" saints of I Thess. 4:15,17 who were taken to heaven along with the second bodily resurrection in Pentecost of AD 70, which I have written about in other posts.  So don't expect Lazarus to be making an appearance on our evening newsfeed today.  He left this planet long ago.

Of course, all this will undoubtedly be regarded as the mad ravings of a poor, deluded soul.  But that's scripture's story, and I'm sticking to it. 

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 31, 2017 - 18:50:06 »



Online 4WD

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #5 on: Fri Mar 31, 2017 - 19:06:31 »
But that's scripture's story, and I'm sticking to it.
No, that's not Scriptures's story, that is your story.
Quote
Of course, all this will undoubtedly be regarded as the mad ravings of a poor, deluded soul.
Yes, so regarded.


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #6 on: Sun Apr 09, 2017 - 23:31:58 »
4WD  -  Your reaction is much the same as mine was several years ago when I first heard this idea proposed that Lazarus was the "Beloved Disciple" who wrote the Fourth Gospel - not John the son of Zebedee.  I laughed at the time, but have since come to agree with this view after digging into the gospels about this. 

The only reason we have for thinking that John the son of Zebedee was the "Beloved Disciple" is the presumed tradition.  It's nowhere to be found in the Fourth Gospel - or any of the other gospels, for that matter.  If you are at all interested in a Bible study that proves that the "Beloved Disciple" cannot possibly be John the son of Zebedee, but is probably Lazarus instead who wrote the Fourth Gospel, I would strongly encourage you or anyone else to read the 161-page e-book at www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com.  It's excellent and uses NOTHING BUT SCRIPTURE IN THE KJV to prove its points, if that makes any difference to you.

I differ with the e-book's author only in my conviction that Lazarus could not possibly experience a second death, and that not only the Fourth Gospel, but also the book of Revelation was written by Lazarus (with the 3 epistles written by a different John the Elder / Presbyter - NOT the Apostle John, son of Zebedee - as the quote by Papias in Eusebius states.) 

Here's just a couple of the author's points that prove beyond a doubt, by using only scripture, that John the son of Zebedee was not the "disciple whom Jesus loved".  First, the author mentions what I already brought up; that the John 21:2 fishing expedition after Christ's resurrection included 5 disciples (with James and John, the sons of Zebedee on board) and 2 OTHER nameless disciples - one of which was the "disciple whom Jesus loved" in John 21:7.  John, son of Zebedee, is undeniably mentioned as distinct from the "beloved disciple" here. 

Second, the author mentions the "other disciple whom Jesus loved" coming with Peter to the empty tomb.  When the other disciple saw the linen grave-clothes lying, it is said that he "BELIEVED" (John 20:8).  Later that evening, on Christ's resurrection day, the record in Mark 16:14 says that Jesus "appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat and upbraided them with THEIR UNBELIEF and hardness of heart because THEY BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen."  So, the "beloved disciple" who BELIEVED, according to these verses, could not have been one of the eleven who BELIEVED NOT.  That's about as certain as you can get.

In addition to the points I made in my last comment, I will also add this to the identification of Lazarus: I believe that the rich young ruler (of the Sanhedrin) whom Jesus was said to have loved (Mark 10:21) was also the beloved Lazarus, (a.k.a John Eleazar the priest).  Because the rich young ruler was a member of the Sanhedrin, if he was really Lazarus raised from the dead later on, it would explain why it was so paramount for the chief priests to put Lazarus to death; they didn't want one of their own to be helping Christ's evangelism among the people (John 7:47-48 cp. John 12:10-11).  Unfortunately for them, what they were wishing to accomplish (Lazarus' 2nd death) wasn't even a physical possibility. 

Jesus told this rich young ruler to sell his goods to the poor, and take up the cross and follow Him. Though this beloved young ruler went away sorrowful at the time, that was not the end of his story.  Jesus told the disciples around him that even though it was difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, "with God all things are possible" (Mark 10:27).

Possible for this man whom Jesus loved to be called forth out of the tomb later by Christ. 
Possible for this beloved young ruler to then obey Jesus' command to follow Him as the "Beloved Disciple".  (Note: it's NEVER the "Beloved APOSTLE".)
Possible for this beloved young ruler to be leaning on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper among the group of the chosen twelve.
Possible for this beloved, rich young ruler to be given the charge at the crucifixion of taking Jesus' mother to "his own home" - in Bethany (John 19:27). 

Who better to protect Jesus' mother than this beloved young ruler / a.k.a. "The Beloved Disciple" / a.k.a. John Eleazar / a.k.a. the beloved Lazarus?  If this rich young ruler was "the disciple whom Jesus loved", then he would REMAIN until Jesus came again (John 21:22), as a glorified saint who could never die again, never get sick or feeble with age, and never commit another sin. 

This is senior care at its finest for Mary.  Jesus provided well for His mother.
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 09, 2017 - 23:48:00 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline RB

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Re: LAZARUS’ SECOND FUNERAL
« Reply #7 on: Mon Apr 10, 2017 - 05:28:29 »
Just marking this so I can come back and give it more thoughts.....RB

 

     
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