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Author Topic: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas  (Read 1599 times)

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AVZ

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #70 on: Thu Jul 27, 2017 - 21:48:02 »
Millions will carry on using the gifts daily no matter what others think. When God gives, we need to receive and use what He has given.
We have a spiritual God who gives spiritual gifts.
Its not my business what others do or don't do with the gifts, that's for them to decide, but attacking them and the gifts is appalling and very serious.

Of course you are being questioned (or as you say attacked) about the gifts you claim to have received, because you are not answering genuine questions posted.

1) You claimed that praying in tongues is 100% perfect, and praying in the vernacular is prone to "mistakes". Why?
2) You have been asked why the words from modern apostles are not added to Canon, if it is the same office and function as Peter and Paul and if it is the same Holy Spirit giving new revelation...then they should. So why not?
3) You have been asked to explain why unintelligible language does not have to be interpreted even though Paul clearly states they should. So why?
4) You say the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased, but even the Pentecostal movement treats some gifts as ceased. Why?

Even forerunners in the Pentecostal movement admit that the gift of tongues is faked many times! So why can it not be Chosenone who is faking it?
Obviously you cannot differentiate one unintelligible speech from the other, so if one is fake then logically all could be fake.

Why not simply answer these questions instead of accusing others of "attacking" you?

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #70 on: Thu Jul 27, 2017 - 21:48:02 »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #71 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 05:59:18 »
I know this is not addressed to me, but since this is an open discussion, I'll respond.

Of course you are being questioned (or as you say attacked) about the gifts you claim to have received, because you are not answering genuine questions posted.

No, questions and attacks are not the same thing.  With the caveat that I may have missed a few words here and there, I have not noticed anyone calling a mere "question" an "attack."

An "attack" is doing something like using expressions like "babble" or "jibber-jabber" to characterize what we believe is Spirit-given speech in unknown languages.  Such mockery shows one's heart is more like that of the infidels in Acts 2 than like a Christian's.

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1) You claimed that praying in tongues is 100% perfect, and praying in the vernacular is prone to "mistakes". Why?

Some Pentecostals do make claims along these lines.  I am somewhat sympathetic, but can't really give it a full-throated defense.  The best Scriptural support seems to me to be Rom. 8:26-27, and scholarly opinion is divided as to whether that even refers to tongues-speaking (or anything similar) at all.

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2) You have been asked why the words from modern apostles are not added to Canon, if it is the same office and function as Peter and Paul and if it is the same Holy Spirit giving new revelation...then they should. So why not?

This has been answered.  You just did not like the answers.  Sometimes interlocutors reach a point where they just plainly disagree, and no further discussion or illumination can change that.

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3) You have been asked to explain why unintelligible language does not have to be interpreted even though Paul clearly states they should. So why?

See above.

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4) You say the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased, but even the Pentecostal movement treats some gifts as ceased. Why?

Which gifts?


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Even forerunners in the Pentecostal movement admit that the gift of tongues is faked many times! So why can it not be Chosenone who is faking it?
Obviously you cannot differentiate one unintelligible speech from the other, so if one is fake then logically all could be fake.

Here the answer is probably subjective.  I will answer for my own case.  Chosenone can give her own answer if she chooses.

To me, "fake" implies that the speaker is intentionally creating and directing his own unintelligible speech.  I can, by volitional choice, do a decent job of "Sid Caesaring," meaning "faking" languages like Russian or German or French.  Or Klingon.  But for me, "speaking in tongues" is subjectively a very different process.  I cannot explain how.  It is just experientially and practically different.


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Why not simply answer these questions instead of accusing others of "attacking" you?

Asking questions is ok in principle.  But some questions are so close to the line, they "feel" like attacks.  For many of us, "praying in tongues" is an intimate part of our relationship with God, and for Xians, our relationship with God should ideally be our closest and most important relationship.  It is not always possible to remain detached and dispassionate when that is "questioned."

AVZ

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #72 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 06:14:27 »

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You have been asked why the words from modern apostles are not added to Canon, if it is the same office and function as Peter and Paul and if it is the same Holy Spirit giving new revelation...then they should. So why not?

This has been answered.  You just did not like the answers.  Sometimes interlocutors reach a point where they just plainly disagree, and no further discussion or illumination can change that.

Yes you did. This was your answer:
"More persuasive to me is the fact that when compared to the accepted canon, the new alleged revelations are usually glaringly contradictory at various points, and so are to be rejected."

Don't you see how contradictory this is?

There is an apostle in the office and function like Peter and Paul, and we have to accept him as an apostle.
But at the same time his revelations contradict Canon so we have to reject what he says.

How can someone be an apostle in the office and function like Peter and Paul if his teachings contradict scripture?

Offline chosenone

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #73 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 07:13:47 »
I have answered so many questions so many times on the gifts this forum in the last 10 years.  Its all in the Bible anyway.

Offline RB

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #74 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 08:43:43 »
I have answered so many questions so many times on the gifts this forum in the last 10 years.  Its all in the Bible anyway.
Indeed it is. When its comes to tongues, then it is also clear that women are NOT permitted to use their tongues, whether known or unknown, but they are commanded to learn in silence during the worship of God within the assembly of the saints. But, the Pentecostals refuse to submit to this clear commandment as they do so many others. They treat the holy scriptures like a salad bar, pick and chose what they like and dislike. 
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 08:49:31 by RB »

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #74 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 08:43:43 »



Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #75 on: Mon Jul 31, 2017 - 05:01:15 »
Indeed it is. When its comes to tongues, then it is also clear that women are NOT permitted to use their tongues, whether known or unknown, but they are commanded to learn in silence during the worship of God within the assembly of the saints. But, the Pentecostals refuse to submit to this clear commandment as they do so many others. They treat the holy scriptures like a salad bar, pick and chose what they like and dislike.


This is a ridiculous, anti-Scriptural position.

In the first place, chapter 11 of the same book whose chapter 14 allegedly prohibits women from speaking in the assembly shows that women are *expected* to speak, at the very least in the form of prayer and prophecy.

This blog article by Witherington addresses various related matters, and in the interactions in the Comments area, he notes that venue is irrelevant, since in those days meetings or assemblies were of various sizes, and took place in various locations, including (especially?) in homes, and even on the street.  Requiring silence of women in all such situations would explicitly contradict Acts 18, and would implicitly contradict many others.

Witherington, BTW, is a life-long Methodist.  He is "pentecostal" only in the broadest sense, in that he practices glossolalia.

ETA:  I'll also belatedly note that Pentecostals do no worse than any other Xians in terms of "refus(ing) to submit" to allegedly clear "commands" in Scripture, and in terms of "pick(ing) and choos(ing)."  We make our best prayerful efforts to study, understand, and apply Scripture.  You just don't like the results.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 01, 2017 - 01:53:16 by NorrinRadd »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #76 on: Tue Aug 01, 2017 - 02:09:53 »
Quote
Quote
AVZ:You have been asked why the words from modern apostles are not added to Canon, if it is the same office and function as Peter and Paul and if it is the same Holy Spirit giving new revelation...then they should. So why not?
NR:
This has been answered.  You just did not like the answers.  Sometimes interlocutors reach a point where they just plainly disagree, and no further discussion or illumination can change that.


Yes you did. This was your answer:
"More persuasive to me is the fact that when compared to the accepted canon, the new alleged revelations are usually glaringly contradictory at various points, and so are to be rejected."

Don't you see how contradictory this is?


Of course I don't.

For the benefit of those following the exchange, I said that here in the other current "tongues" thread.

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There is an apostle in the office and function like Peter and Paul, and we have to accept him as an apostle.
But at the same time his revelations contradict Canon so we have to reject what he says.

How can someone be an apostle in the office and function like Peter and Paul if his teachings contradict scripture?


The fact that the alleged apostle's teachings contradict Scripture -- especially if presented in "Thus says the Lord" fashion, or something closely similar -- would be a strong indication that the person is NOT in fact a genuine apostle or prophet.

We seem to be talking past each other here.

Offline RB

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #77 on: Tue Aug 01, 2017 - 04:57:38 »
This is a ridiculous, anti-Scriptural position.

In the first place, chapter 11 of the same book whose chapter 14 allegedly prohibits women from speaking in the assembly shows that women are *expected* to speak, at the very least in the form of prayer and prophecy.
I will only make a remark or two, keep from again hijacking a thread from its original purpose.

Women learning in silence in the worship of God WHEN the church comes TOGETHER for that very purpose, then it is very clear that women are to learn in silence as taught by Paul, and also Moses taught of old.

I worded my sentence very carefully because there are times when our sisters can and should speak up and contribute, yet not in the assembly of the saints for the purpose of coming together to be taught the word of God, that duty is given only to men, and mainly to the elders (older men) among them who have the gift to teach others.

And yes, Pentecostals and many other Christians do treat God's word as they would a local salad bar pick(ing) and choos(ing) what they desire and what they do not desire~women having authority over men in the house of God is one of them, among many more.

The Reformers did not have to deal with Pentecostals/gospel prosperity "gangsters" (Jesse James and Billy the Kid had nothing on these thieves) posing as men of God in their $1000.00 suits, who came into the religious arena with their wives at their sides preaching with them as though they too were anointed of God and from there we have many more women preachers that the church did not have to deal with until the last one hundred and fifty years, during which time Satan's restraint has been removed to what we now see and are dealing with.
Quote from: NorrinRadd
You just don't like the results.
The results? Sir, I'm sure there are sincere believers among the Pentecostals, but their leaders have not one thing I desire, and I certainly do not envy their deceptions but pity many of them.

Since they (Pentecostals) came into the religious scene less than one hundred and fifty years ago, they have accepted much of today's false Escathology, all of the Soteriology, and even added a little to it with the second work of grace! Not to mention the main door through which women preachers come through~and a host of other false doctrines. I see them as "part of" the very ones that Jesus warned us of that were to come from Matthew 24.
Quote from: NorrinRadd
You just don't like the results.
Your concern should be God's hatred of this false movement that knows nothing of the gospel of Jesus Christ but preaches another gospel. I judge them by their gospel they teach, not by their by their religious show they put on, which can be very deceiving, but their gospel CAN BE TESTED with God's truth.

     

« Last Edit: Tue Aug 01, 2017 - 06:04:05 by RB »

AVZ

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #78 on: Tue Aug 01, 2017 - 05:45:34 »
NR:
This has been answered.  You just did not like the answers.  Sometimes interlocutors reach a point where they just plainly disagree, and no further discussion or illumination can change that.

Yes you did. This was your answer:
"More persuasive to me is the fact that when compared to the accepted canon, the new alleged revelations are usually glaringly contradictory at various points, and so are to be rejected."

Don't you see how contradictory this is?

Of course I don't.

For the benefit of those following the exchange, I said that here in the other current "tongues" thread.

The fact that the alleged apostle's teachings contradict Scripture -- especially if presented in "Thus says the Lord" fashion, or something closely similar -- would be a strong indication that the person is NOT in fact a genuine apostle or prophet.

We seem to be talking past each other here.


No we are not talking past each other.

The apostolic argument started with me asking Chosenone if she thinks if indeed the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter still exists.
She responded that she did.
I then posted the argument that we then have to take the words of these apostles as Canon.
You then inserted yourself into the discussion by saying that this view is inconsistent with scripture, and you posted a list with names of other people who are called apostle.

Chosenone did not respond on my question, so I asked her again.
Once more you inserted yourself into the discussion and claimed that we should reject the teaching of these apostles because they contradict scripture.


Your position is a contradiction.
- Either the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter still exists, and we then have to add the words of these modern apostles to Canon, or
- the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter does not exist anymore, which shows that the Spiritual gift of apostle has ceased.


What you cannot have is people who have received the gift of apostle in the office and function like Paul and Peter, and who teach contradictions to scripture.

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #79 on: Tue Aug 01, 2017 - 08:29:45 »
- Either the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter still exists, and we then have to add the words of these modern apostles to Canon, or
- the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter does not exist anymore, which shows that the Spiritual gift of apostle has ceased.


What you cannot have is people who have received the gift of apostle in the office and function like Paul and Peter, and who teach contradictions to scripture.

AMEN AND AMEN ! !

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

Offline mommydi

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #80 on: Tue Aug 01, 2017 - 08:32:54 »
+1 AVZ

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #81 on: Mon Aug 07, 2017 - 02:06:16 »
No we are not talking past each other.

The apostolic argument started with me asking Chosenone if she thinks if indeed the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter still exists.
She responded that she did.
I then posted the argument that we then have to take the words of these apostles as Canon.
You then inserted yourself into the discussion...

Please resist the temptation to treat public discussions as private, with the implication that people joining in are somehow intruding.


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by saying that this view is inconsistent with scripture, and you posted a list with names of other people who are called apostle.

I'm not sure if it was in that exact post, but either there or in a subsequent one I did more:  I gave Scriptural support for the idea that at least *some* of those people were in the same "class" as Paul.

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Chosenone did not respond on my question, so I asked her again.
Once more you inserted yourself into the discussion...

See above.


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... and claimed that we should reject the teaching of these apostles because they contradict scripture.

Yes.  That does not necessarily mean we automatically reject that they are apostles (or prophets).


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Your position is a contradiction.
- Either the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter still exists, and we then have to add the words of these modern apostles to Canon, or
- the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter does not exist anymore, which shows that the Spiritual gift of apostle has ceased.

No.  You assume things Scripture does not assert:

-- You assume that only apostles wrote NT Scripture.  Scripture itself does not assert this.

-- You assume that all apostles -- or at least all apostles of the "class" of Paul and The Twelve -- wrote Scripture.  Scripture itself does not assert this, and in fact disproves it.

-- You assume that all writings of apostles of the "class" of Paul and The Twelve were canonized as sacred Scripture.  Scripture itself does not assert this, and in fact suggests otherwise.

-- You assume that "the Canon is closed."  I happen to *like* the idea of a closed Canon.  It is convenient.  Unfortunately I do not find it taught in Scripture itself.


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What you cannot have is people who have received the gift of apostle in the office and function like Paul and Peter, and who teach contradictions to scripture.

Why not?  Scripture itself never asserts that the apostles were infallible, nor that all their writings were Canonized.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Reply #82 on: Mon Aug 07, 2017 - 04:41:14 »
Indeed it is. When its comes to tongues, then it is also clear that women are NOT permitted to use their tongues, whether known or unknown, but they are commanded to learn in silence during the worship of God within the assembly of the saints. But, the Pentecostals refuse to submit to this clear commandment as they do so many others. They treat the holy scriptures like a salad bar, pick and chose what they like and dislike.

So you never pray quietly to God during a service? I do, sometimes in tongues and sometimes in  English. 
Also, its clear that God gives prophecies to both men and women, these are often to be given in the assembly. Everything must be done decently and in order, and I have never been to a charismatic church where it wasn't. No one should interrupt the teaching, and I have not seen anyone do that. As Paul says, words(whether given in tongues or our own language), should be given one at a time.

 

     
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