The Disciples of Christ

[blituri]

However, like Stone and the Campbells in the early day we do not make baptism a test of fellowship.

Not true: Campbell could "fellowship" anyone who claimed to be a christian with a little "c" as in a christian nation.

However, he said that Christians were believers who had been baptized. He said that if there were "Christians among the sects then they should come out of Babylon."  He noted how silly it would be that if he really participated with the SECTS that he had made it his life's work to teach the SECTS to return to the Bible.

He would preach in an instrumental church but he would not FELLOWSHIP THE ORGAN so it was silenced.
He would not fellowship an unbaptized person in the sense of considering them saved or qualified to fellowship in the sense of leading in a congregation or preaching.

You would not FELLERSHIP me if I wanted to teach the FACTS from Genesis to Revelation about the music issue. Sure, you would let me attend and put something in the pot.

The Disciples have more Anglican roots than the Church of Christ: they follow the High Church idea which was never approved by anyone but the Catholics, that they have the right to use traditon and culture alonside of the Word of God. That is THE major distinction between the Church of Christ and some fraction of the Christian Churches.   They call us a SECT because we do not ADD anything not commanded while they call themselves a CHURCH because they are a LIVING Church able to go with the flow.  They love the demeaning term "strict constructionists."  Lately they have added ANTI-instrumentalists which means that they would not fellowship anyone who doesn't follow orders and stop teaching against "machines for doing hard work."

[Johnb]

In the early part of the RM first Stone then Campebell rejected infant baptism.  However, neither made a connection between the believers baptism and the forgiveness of sin.  When the 2 movements combined the question of baptism came up and Stone insisted that it not be made a test of fellowship but that decision be left to the individual.  He also pointed out that not 1 or 2 in 100 had not had the believers baptism.  Campbell agreed and the merger was complete.  Both Stone and Campbell thought baptism was important but neither made it an absolute test of fellowship.  Campbell said on the subject "should only those of complete knowledge and understanding be admiytted into the kingdom of God?"

[Lee Freeman]

As a related aside, Jim Jone's socialistic communal People's Temple cult was techincally affiliated with the DoC. He graduated in 1961 from Butler University, which was associated with the DoC, and his congregation in Ukiah became a member of the DoC's Northern California-Nevada region in 1964. After establishing another church in San Francisco it was also awarded membership in the DoC Southern California-Nevada region-an unusual occurance for a church to dual membership in two districts.

After the Jonestown murder-suicide (many of the members were forced to drink the posion punch against their will or were injected with the cyanide forcibly)  of Nov. 18, 1978, DoC officials were asked  how Jones' cult could've flown underneath their radar, to which they replied that Peoples' Temple complied with  the minimum reuiremernts of baptism and weekly communion (practiced in unorthodox ways and with unorthodox spins put on both of them by Jones). And it contributed some $1.1 million between 1966 and 1977. The leadership claimed that the denomination had no apparatus for reviewing, judging and removing a congregation, however after the Jonestwon tragedy was looking towards putting such measures in place. Jones had made the DoC look good, with his large (one of the largest in its region), integrated, socially active and progessive congregation; basically, no one bothered to check too closely what Jones was actually teaching, and even if they had, the leadership claimed it was hampered by its policy of congregational autonomy. Jones had ministers from several mainstream denominations fooled, as well as not a few politicians and their wives-including the Mayor of San Francisco and First Lady Rosalin Carter.

Pax.

[Johnb]

Lee
You would have to remind me of that.  Also not to proud of the UCC church Obama was a member of.

[Lee Freeman]

Lee
You would have to remind me of that.  Also not to proud of the UCC church Obama was a member of.

Not pointing any fingers. Regarding Jones there's more than enough guilt to go around. Everyone dropped the ball on that one.

Pax.

[blituri]

It was the Disciples of Christ who wanted to count the Churches of Christ and failed in the 1906 Census.

In 1906 the NACC belonged to the Disciples of Christ. They sected out beginning a decade later but were not taken off the DOC count until 1971.

The Churches of Christ is not a sectarian offshoot of the Christian church.

[Lee Freeman]

It was the Disciples of Christ who wanted to count the Churches of Christ and failed in the 1906 Census.

In 1906 the NACC belonged to the Disciples of Christ. They sected out beginning a decade later but were not taken off the DOC count until 1971.

The Churches of Christ is not a sectarian offshoot of the Christian church.

Both groups are sectarian offshoots of Stone's and Campbell's Reformation. I think Stone and Campbell might be disgusted with both groups.

Pax.

[Johnb]

It was the Disciples of Christ who wanted to count the Churches of Christ and failed in the 1906 Census.

In 1906 the NACC belonged to the Disciples of Christ. They sected out beginning a decade later but were not taken off the DOC count until 1971.

The Churches of Christ is not a sectarian offshoot of the Christian church.

Both groups are sectarian offshoots of Stone's and Campbell's Reformation. I think Stone and Campbell might be disgusted with both groups.

Pax.

Yep!

[wave runner]

I noticed on a recent documentary on the 20th anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy that archive footage of the People's Temple prior to its move out of the US, that the worship service appeared to be totally without instruments.  Thought that interesting!

[Lee Freeman]

I noticed on a recent documentary on the 20th anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy that archive footage of the People's Temple prior to its move out of the US, that the worship service appeared to be totally without instruments.  Thought that interesting!

Actually they had a Peoples' Temple Band which played in many of the services, which often accompanied the choir.

In the services Jones really played up his supposed abilities as a faith healer, which is what originally garnered him his celebrity. He even claimed to have raised something like 40 people from the dead. But his miracles were all fakes; for example he would "heal" people of cancer, then send them to the restroom where they would supposedly pass their tumor. But actually these would be Temple members faking it then coming out with a piece of raw meat they'd display and claim was their tumor. In another case an elderly lady who became disillusioned and left the Temple in the early 70s later reported that one Sunday she had been jostled in the service, then members immediately whisked her out and bandaged her undamaged arm, which they then made her claim had been broken and which Jones then claimed to heal. Often Jones would have Temple members disguised or planted in the audience and would pretend to heal them.

Jones originally began in the early 50's within the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches of Indiana but gradually shifted over to the the Disciples because their looser structure and congregational autonomy allowed Jones to get away with more things than he could with the Pentecostal fellowship. Originally he preached a gospel of integration and civil rights based upon the inclusiveness of the gospel. But as he went on he dropped any pretense of orthodox Christianity, and began preaching an atheistic mesage of socialism which was mixed with certain Eastern themes like reincarnation. Jones claimed not to believe in the traditional Judaeo-Christian God and identified himself as an incarnation of an impersonal socialist "god-force." His followers referred to him as "Father." He was often known to throw down a Bible and stomp on it in services as well as swear in the pulpit. A large number of his members were black, as was one of his associate pastors, Archie Ijames, however the inner circle, the Temples' planning commission, or p. c., was comprised of twenty and thirty-something white males and females.

Jones used intimidation, guilt, fear and sex to keep his followers in line. He would have "catharrsis" sessions in which, among other things, members on the p. c. were encouraged to criticize the faults of others on the p.  c., and male members were encouraged to admit latent homosexual impulses, and would often himself take these males as lovers, as a sick kind of therapy and in other cases, sired children by female members of the cult (even though he was married) with whom he was having sexual relations. He would also force couples who a child to sign a sheet implying that Jim Jones was the biological father of the child, to dissuade these couples from leaving the Temple. One of these instances blew up in his face after a couple named Stoen, highly placed in the Peoples' Temple, finally did defect. Jones then produced the bogus document claiming he was the real father of their young son. The Stoens divorced because of all of this, but nevertheless waged a nearly successful custody battle for their son, who unfortunately died at only six years old at Jonestown. "Father" got lots of bad press because of this but by that time was already entrenched in Guyana, and had his propaganda machine spin the episode to make it look like the Stoens were just a couple of disgrunteled liars out to get him. Jones also had Temple members spy on the activities of other Temple members, the Temple made illgeal political campaign contributions, often donating to candidates of both parties. etc. And Jones had a squad of armed guards, allegedly to protect him from assassination attempts, however the assassination attempts were staged by Jones. Jones would often get his way by feigning heart attacks if members didn't want to follow his orders, and, in a disurbing nod to the later Jonestown murder-suicide, to test their loyalty, on a couple of occasions he had members on the p. c. drink punch which he said was poisoned; Jones even had some of the members feign death, but then, at the last moment, told the group it was all just a test.

He was a very disturbed guy!

Pax.

[James.]

Lee
You would have to remind me of that.  Also not to proud of the UCC church Obama was a member of.

You would think people would realize that extremists within a particular body are just that, and that people would not judge the whole by its lunatic fringe.  However, if there is one thing I've learned here at GCM, it's that this, unfortunately, is not a realistic expectation.  Whether is the DoC, the CoC, the RCC, or the Baskin-Robbins, someone will always judge the mainstream by the extreme.

[Bocephus]

Lee
You would have to remind me of that.  Also not to proud of the UCC church Obama was a member of.

You would think people would realize that extremists within a particular body are just that, and that people would not judge the whole by its lunatic fringe.  However, if there is one thing I've learned here at GCM, it's that this, unfortunately, is not a realistic expectation.  Whether is the DoC, the CoC, the RCC, or the Baskin-Robbins, someone will always judge the mainstream by the extreme.

With uber autonomy is there a such thing as mainstream?

[James.]

Yeah, actually there seems to be.  It's the fruit of forces other than a denominational hierarchy, but it's real and tangible, nonetheless.  Those influences tend to be school/college circles, workshops, publications, etc.  In and of themselves, these influences don't have any authority over the congregations, but because a congregation's leadership may all subscribe to a particular pov and circle-of-influence, it has the same end effects, istm.

For example, most churches associated with ACU tend to swim the same currents (same to be said for most such schools).  You see that with the Spiritual Sword circle as well.  But, many of these circles are overlapping, and that produces a larger hive mindset that then produces a "mainstream" of thought and practice.  When a smaller circle breaks off over this or that, they then quickly lose that hive mindset and become pretty distinct (like the SS crowd). 

Hopefully that makes more sense on your screen than mine, because that's not worded quite as clearly as the concept in my head.  Must be the triptophan.

[Bocephus]

Yeah, actually there seems to be.  It's the fruit of forces other than a denominational hierarchy, but it's real and tangible, nonetheless.  Those influences tend to be school/college circles, workshops, publications, etc.  In and of themselves, these influences don't have any authority over the congregations, but because a congregation's leadership may all subscribe to a particular pov and circle-of-influence, it has the same end effects, istm.

For example, most churches associated with ACU tend to swim the same currents (same to be said for most such schools).  You see that with the Spiritual Sword circle as well.  But, many of these circles are overlapping, and that produces a larger hive mindset that then produces a "mainstream" of thought and practice.  When a smaller circle breaks off over this or that, they then quickly lose that hive mindset and become pretty distinct (like the SS crowd). 

Hopefully that makes more sense on your screen than mine, because that's not worded quite as clearly as the concept in my head.  Must be the triptophan.

The Bible Church movement is quite a bit younger, even though like the RM it has Baptist/Presbyterian roots and lives by "back to the bible" etc.  There aren't as many colleges or publications for influence. 

[James.]

I've a friend who likes to point out that most "back to the bible" movements have at least partial roots in conservative Presbyterianism.