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Author Topic: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"  (Read 28318 times)

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Offline Donald Raby

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2009, 04:50:15 PM »
Baptize did not originate with the LXX. The Hebrews who translated the OT text into Greek chose a greek word to describe what happened to Joseph's coat. Dipped is immersed and does carry the meaning of to dye in the original. The usage of the word in English is confused by those who transliterated the word rather than translating it as immerse. Sprinkling is not immersion.

The New Testament writers (apostles and prophets) used the word in every context to indicate an immersion or complete burial or overwhelming in the element whether it be fire, water, spirit, or cloud. Immersion is affirmed in John's Baptism when he was doing so where there was much water and fully described in Acts 8:27-37 in the baptism of the Ethiopian.

Fire and Spirit immersion are two elements described by John in Matt 3:11. In one sprit would be good in the other fire is not good as it refers to eternal fire of hell. Baptism of repentance for remission of sins was introduced by John and Jesus commanded the apostles to take that action of immersion in His name (authority) as the initiatory obedience for believers in the gospel preached. Baptism had nothing to do with Judaism or Judaizers who bound the Law with circumcision.

Being born again of water and spirit is the conversion of a sinner to salvation in Christ where one is cleansed by his blood and receives every spiritual blessing. Gal 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-5 show clearly that one is immersed into Christ. Once dead, buried and raised to walk in newness of life having put on Christ. Sincerely, Donald Raby

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2009, 04:50:15 PM »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #121 on: September 03, 2009, 06:22:51 PM »
Baptize did not originate with the LXX. The Hebrews who translated the OT text into Greek chose a greek word to describe what happened to Joseph's coat. Dipped is immersed and does carry the meaning of to dye in the original. The usage of the word in English is confused by those who transliterated the word rather than translating it as immerse. Sprinkling is not immersion.

The New Testament writers (apostles and prophets) used the word in every context to indicate an immersion or complete burial or overwhelming in the element whether it be fire, water, spirit, or cloud. Immersion is affirmed in John's Baptism when he was doing so where there was much water and fully described in Acts 8:27-37 in the baptism of the Ethiopian.

Fire and Spirit immersion are two elements described by John in Matt 3:11. In one sprit would be good in the other fire is not good as it refers to eternal fire of hell. Baptism of repentance for remission of sins was introduced by John and Jesus commanded the apostles to take that action of immersion in His name (authority) as the initiatory obedience for believers in the gospel preached. Baptism had nothing to do with Judaism or Judaizers who bound the Law with circumcision.

Being born again of water and spirit is the conversion of a sinner to salvation in Christ where one is cleansed by his blood and receives every spiritual blessing. Gal 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-5 show clearly that one is immersed into Christ. Once dead, buried and raised to walk in newness of life having put on Christ. Sincerely, Donald Raby


When Baptisms are performed at many churchs the Preacher always says, "Dead in your sins", (while dunking them) and then raised to walk in a newness of life (while bringing them up out of the water)

Or something to that effect.

And Baptize does seem to fit in Both places doesn't it... ::lookaround:: ::smile::
Both what happened to Joseph's coat (he became dead to Jacob when it was shown to him) and then found alive later....all rich and important.

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #121 on: September 03, 2009, 06:22:51 PM »

Offline DCR

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2009, 06:17:25 PM »
Yes... Judiasm was a problem back them.. the Jewish christians were losing their exclusive identity and were struggling with how to admit gentiles into the new fledgling christian faith.

Besides, John the baptism foretold that water baptism was only a temporary rite... did he lie?

No, John didn't lie... because that isn't what he said.


When we become Christians now, we are baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.. not water.

That's a twisting of what John said.  For one who derides 21st century Americans reading and interpreting Scripture, you sure do a number from a twisted rendering of one verse, contradicting all other scriptures on baptism's place in the New Testament.

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2009, 06:17:25 PM »

Offline zoonance

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #123 on: September 05, 2009, 12:17:29 PM »

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #123 on: September 05, 2009, 12:17:29 PM »

Offline Joker2

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #124 on: September 06, 2009, 09:44:43 PM »
John 3:16  (no water required) ::smile::

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #124 on: September 06, 2009, 09:44:43 PM »



ex cathedra

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2010, 08:38:33 PM »
 
  ::announcment::here is two verses wrritten  about some ---------"unbaptized believers in their own way".

Luke 7:30
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.


 BE SURE TO  read the before and after texts OF JOHN 3:5-7  SO YOU KNOW its talking about "water baptism"


John 3:5-7
 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. 
Acts 2:38-39
======================================================================
 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."




Ephesians 5:25-27 

 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.




Titus3:5-7


Titus 3:5-7
5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. ::clappingoverhead::


 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 09:01:09 PM by ex cathedra »

Offline jentle1

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #126 on: February 16, 2010, 05:27:07 PM »
The Bible says there is ONE baptism. I believe that baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I believe water baptism was temporary...a physical shadow of the true that was to come after Christ's death and resurrection.  Where the Bible says you must be born of the water and the Spirit, the word "water" implies the mother's womb. So, it is saying that it is not enough to be born of the physical womb, but you must be born of the Spirit. 

I cannot help but rejoice in the grace of God, and the love of Jesus, every time I think of it! Salvation IS a personal "knowing" that nobody can take away from me! Woo-hoo!

Offline zoonance

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2010, 06:37:18 AM »
water might imply womb, but it would be odd to tell a physically born man that he as to be physically born...   That explanation always sounds like a stretch in order to justify a stand.

Offline jentle1

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2010, 07:58:43 AM »
My point was that the verse is not saying that you have to be baptized in water AND in the Spirit.  The verse is making a distinction between physical birth and spiritual birth.  And, there is only ONE baptism, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and in water (total immersion), but after much study, I changed my mind regarding water baptism.

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2010, 07:58:43 AM »

Offline xpressmyfaith

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2010, 06:46:49 AM »
Baptism is important in a life of Christian but it is not necessary for salvation. It publicly symbolizes that your sins were washed away by putting your faith in Jesus Christ.

{edited to remove link per forum rule 3.3}
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 07:11:07 AM by OldDad »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2010, 07:02:00 AM »
"necessary for salvation" is where this discussion always gets hung up.  The bottom line is, though, that to be an obedient and faithful disciple of Jesus, you must be baptized.  He commanded it.  Therefore, an unbaptized disciple, refusing to be baptized, is by definition disobedient.  Why would a believer choose to stay in such a state?

“Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes.”
~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 07:44:27 AM by James. »

Offline evangelist 1

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #131 on: May 11, 2010, 03:46:10 PM »
"necessary for salvation" is where this discussion always gets hung up.  The bottom line is, though, that to be an obedient and faithful disciple of Jesus, you must be baptized.  He commanded it.  Therefore, an unbaptized disciple, refusing to be baptized, is by definition disobedient.  Why would a believer choose to stay in such a state?

“Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes.

ex cathedra

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« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 11:53:42 PM by ex cathedra »

Offline NTPREACHER4U

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2010, 12:24:31 AM »
John 3:16  (no water required) ::smile::

 ::clappingoverhead::    Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. With the heart man believes unto righteouness with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Phillph wouldn't baptize someone unless they believe with all their heart that Jesus is the son of God, which came from his confession of faith.

Grace to all.

Offline kensington

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2010, 01:58:45 AM »
My dad was a "Believer" for 31 hours before he died.  He was not baptized.  But, I know without a shadow of a doubt that he was indeed saved and will be in Heaven.  I was there when he got saved.  So no, unbaptized believers are not lost. 

I know in 9 pages of post this has been said, but I'll go ahead and mention it again...  Because it's good stuff.... Jesus did not tell the thief on the cross that he had to get down and be baptized to go to Heaven.  He believed Jesus was the Messiah and asked Jesus to remember him.  The Savior told him "YES".