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Author Topic: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"  (Read 29014 times)

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Offline James Rondon

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #105 on: Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:47:15 »
Okaaaaaaay............should we put on Christ...............in Baptism..........

The aforementioned verse in Galatians doesn't say. Even so, an answer of "yes" is a reasonable inference.

Or is there another way?

See Romans 13:14.

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #105 on: Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:47:15 »

Offline zoonance

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #106 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 12:44:12 »
:surfing:

Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.

The Messiah's not in the water.

Apparently He is everywhere but the water.


Clear point!

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #106 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 12:44:12 »

Offline zoonance

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #107 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 12:52:11 »
:surfing:

Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.

The Messiah's not in the water.

Apparently He is everywhere but the water.


Clear point!



In fact the more I think about it:  The number of individuals that would believe (and teach) that Jesus could not or would not be in the waters of baptism is inconceivable to even the most cursory of scripture reading.

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #107 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 12:52:11 »

Offline James Rondon

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #108 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 14:09:50 »
:surfing:

Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.

The Messiah's not in the water.

Apparently He is everywhere but the water.


Clear point!



In fact the more I think about it:  The number of individuals that would believe (and teach) that Jesus could not or would not be in the waters of baptism is inconceivable to even the most cursory of scripture reading.

So, does that mean you're going to go get into the water with the Messiah, as Janine suggested we all do? If not, why not?

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #108 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 14:09:50 »

Offline janine

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #109 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 20:21:12 »
Why would anyone want to?  Those reasons could apply to me and you, I suppose.

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #109 on: Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 20:21:12 »



ex cathedra

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #110 on: Wed Aug 19, 2009 - 21:04:53 »
A Beleiver in Jesus his holy and precious word  would be baptized------.unless of course he was killed or paralilized or mentaly impared before he got the chance .

a unbeliever would not want christian baptism only a believer would.

yes unbelievers are lost



Luke 7:30
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)



John 3:5-6

 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Ephesians 4:5
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;



« Last Edit: Wed Aug 19, 2009 - 21:14:14 by ex cathedra »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #111 on: Sun Aug 30, 2009 - 14:19:20 »
Baptism is one of those difficult things though...

Someone had to be responsible for Baptizing Simon Magnus. (I know I wouldn't have wanted to be the one who did that one)

The Pharisees and Experts in the Law/Grammitons wanted to be Baptized by John but John the Baptist refused them all...

The Theif on the Cross never got a chance to be Baptized....but he went to Heaven just the same.

The Baptism of old doesn't mean the same as it used to be. Being baptized used to mean that you were going to become apostacised from your family and friends and lose your job and become a member of a non-political religious group (when all the others were about political power)

It meant that you were going to have the right to handle scripture and quote it...and all your friends were going to look at you as if you were committing the worlds biggest sin for doing so.  So even trying to explain it to them was going to be very very difficult.

Today it is done in front of a group of believers with no fear or possibility of being stoned, harrassed, or persecuted...most usually clap and applaud. BIG DIFFERENCE

Offline Donald Raby

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #112 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 20:31:45 »
Baptism is one of those difficult things though...

Someone had to be responsible for Baptizing Simon Magnus. (I know I wouldn't have wanted to be the one who did that one)

The Pharisees and Experts in the Law/Grammitons wanted to be Baptized by John but John the Baptist refused them all...

The Theif on the Cross never got a chance to be Baptized....but he went to Heaven just the same.

The Baptism of old doesn't mean the same as it used to be. Being baptized used to mean that you were going to become apostacised from your family and friends and lose your job and become a member of a non-political religious group (when all the others were about political power)

It meant that you were going to have the right to handle scripture and quote it...and all your friends were going to look at you as if you were committing the worlds biggest sin for doing so.  So even trying to explain it to them was going to be very very difficult.

Today it is done in front of a group of believers with no fear or possibility of being stoned, harrassed, or persecuted...most usually clap and applaud. BIG DIFFERENCE
It is interesting that you mention the response from the community. Yes if one is converted to Christ and obeys the command from Jesus to be immersed in water for remission of sins and then only associates with those with whom he has been added it may be different from the 1st century. However if one who has put on Christ encounters his former associations and friends who may not accept the command of baptism into Christ as the Bible teaches he soon find himself standing alone and probably not invited to join them with the same fervor as before.  I have experienced this harassment as a result of trying to share the gospel as it was preached in the beginning as the apostles went and declared repentance and remission of sins in the name of Jesus Christ. Not many will listen and not a few will oppose the simple truth as presented in the Bible.

I hope those who seek the truth will search their heart and search the Scripture to see if what they hear on this forum is true. It seems there are many confusing ideas presented here. What men believe and do is not the final answer. The final answer is and will always be What did Jesus want for us to believe and do as his servants. If he is Lord. Rom 6:17-18.
Thanks, Donald Rby

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #113 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 21:44:29 »
I believe that in these modern days.. being baptised is a one way ticket to hell. (you are submitting yourself to the old covenant and will be judged by it).

Think about it.. since Jesus paid the price for our sins, why would we need to do something else to do what he already did for those that believe.

The only thing baptism did was a ritual cleansing for an old covenant Jew (who was living under the law and subject to it) which basically completed the old covenant for them and brought them into the new covenant.  So if you were never under the old covenant to begin with.. then why subject yourself to it?


« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 22:04:02 by Tantor »

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #113 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 21:44:29 »

HRoberson

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #114 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 14:54:50 »
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?

ASV
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

CEV
Gal 3:27  And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.

ISV
Gal 3:27  Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

Message
Gal 3:27  Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.

How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?

You are assuming folks believe this to be talking about water baptism.    Just sayin'.

Yes, but I realize the other point of view must assume that it does not. Hence the conundrum!

Other folks would say this is not water baptism.    Emphasis on water.

I realize that. So basically this is the pivotal verse in the entire debate.
This is actually a problem only if we want to make the text more obscure than it is. We have a Jewish guy, who was himself baptized, and who baptized others, referring to baptism. We make this difficult for ourselves because we have lost the ability to understand faith accurately and we seek to tease it into parts that the early church - and the Apostles - did not and would not understand the purpose of.

It's not all that hard to figure out what this Jewish guy is talking about.

Now, that conclusion does not necessarily answer the question in this thread. It simply makes clear that to which the writer refers.

Offline Hehealedme

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #115 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 23:57:15 »
.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 08, 2014 - 10:41:48 by Hehealedme »

Offline Donald Raby

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #116 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 17:01:18 »
From the number of post you have on other subject you are not new to these forums and your question is a good one if you are seriously seek Jesus by faith. Since you are calling yourself a Christian you most likely think that you are serving Jesus as Lord.
As you know there are differing answers from men on the question of baptism. The only one that matters is the one that pleases God through Jesus by faith. (based on Heb 11:1-6).

I will tell you that this question is common and it is not possible for infant sprinkling and adult believer immersion both be true. Since the disciples taught and baptized people in obedience to Jesus, we should look to their teaching and practice. To begin with Acts 8:27-39 Phillip met a man who was seeking to learn more and Phillip preached unto him Jesus. The Ethiopian did not know Jesus nor who the Prophet Isaiah spoke of when he describe his suffering. So as they traveled Phillip told him enough that he went on his way rejoicing. We do not know what he told him, but we do know it incluced baptism as the man requested immersion. "38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." Herein is describe the action of baptism. Not mere sprinkling, but immersion as the word baptism means immersion.
Who was immersed? A man who had heard Jesus preached and one who believed what he heard. Why was he immersed? He was obeying the command that was included in the preaching that he heard. See also Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:18-20.
Romans 6 contains a description of baptism as a death to sin, burial, and a resurrection unto a new life. This indicates baptism is a line of demarcation between one dead in sin and one alive in the Spirit. The real subject of Romans 6 is repentance as we are no longer dead when we turn to Christ we then begin a new walk in grace as we turn away from serving sin to serving righteousness. "17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Rom 6.
Here it is clear that before we obey the teaching of the word of God we are lost in sin and after we obey we are made free from sin. That is why Peter told the first gospel hearers to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. They believed that Jesus who they Crucified was Lord as they heard the eye witness testimony of His resurrection and they were told then they need to change their heart about sin and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ.

So in answer to your question, Yes you should be immersed according to the teaching of Jesus and his apostles. No, infant sprinkling is not found in the Bible and is not the teaching of Jesus. So do not delay find someone who will answer your questions and provide the needed response to follow Jesus as Lord. If you need more assistance please write to me and I will find you someone to help you where ever you are.
Donald Raby efraby AT att.net  put baptism in the suject line.  

 
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 17:17:08 by Donald Raby »

Offline DCR

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #117 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 20:42:07 »
I believe that in these modern days.. being baptised is a one way ticket to hell.

What a completely bizarre thing to say.

The only thing baptism did was a ritual cleansing for an old covenant Jew (who was living under the law and subject to it) which basically completed the old covenant for them and brought them into the new covenant.  So if you were never under the old covenant to begin with.. then why subject yourself to it?

For the same reason that the Gentile Cornelius and other Gentiles who were never under the old covenant to begin with subjected themselves to it.

You're way out in left field on this one.  Your beliefs are historically and scripturally indefensible and baseless.

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #118 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 20:49:03 »
Yes... Judiasm was a problem back them.. the Jewish christians were losing their exclusive identity and were struggling with how to admit gentiles into the new fledgling christian faith.

Besides, John the baptism foretold that water baptism was only a temporary rite... did he lie?  When we become Christians now, we are baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.. not water.


Offline JohnDB

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #119 on: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 15:51:20 »
Yes... Judiasm was a problem back them.. the Jewish christians were losing their exclusive identity and were struggling with how to admit gentiles into the new fledgling christian faith.

Besides, John the baptism foretold that water baptism was only a temporary rite... did he lie?  When we become Christians now, we are baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.. not water.



What is rather unique about this whole Baptism is that this word "baptism" came from the Septuagent. (Greek translation of the Torah)

This was the word used from Joseph's brothers when they dipped his "Coat of many colors"/Seamless coat in the blood of one of the animals. Thus effectively dyeing the coat with blood.

And the fire and water thingy...from the test given to spoils of war by Moses...if it could survive washing in water and the fire...then it could be kept. Otherwise...nope.

Offline Donald Raby

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #120 on: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 17:50:15 »
Baptize did not originate with the LXX. The Hebrews who translated the OT text into Greek chose a greek word to describe what happened to Joseph's coat. Dipped is immersed and does carry the meaning of to dye in the original. The usage of the word in English is confused by those who transliterated the word rather than translating it as immerse. Sprinkling is not immersion.

The New Testament writers (apostles and prophets) used the word in every context to indicate an immersion or complete burial or overwhelming in the element whether it be fire, water, spirit, or cloud. Immersion is affirmed in John's Baptism when he was doing so where there was much water and fully described in Acts 8:27-37 in the baptism of the Ethiopian.

Fire and Spirit immersion are two elements described by John in Matt 3:11. In one sprit would be good in the other fire is not good as it refers to eternal fire of hell. Baptism of repentance for remission of sins was introduced by John and Jesus commanded the apostles to take that action of immersion in His name (authority) as the initiatory obedience for believers in the gospel preached. Baptism had nothing to do with Judaism or Judaizers who bound the Law with circumcision.

Being born again of water and spirit is the conversion of a sinner to salvation in Christ where one is cleansed by his blood and receives every spiritual blessing. Gal 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-5 show clearly that one is immersed into Christ. Once dead, buried and raised to walk in newness of life having put on Christ. Sincerely, Donald Raby

Offline JohnDB

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #121 on: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 19:22:51 »
Baptize did not originate with the LXX. The Hebrews who translated the OT text into Greek chose a greek word to describe what happened to Joseph's coat. Dipped is immersed and does carry the meaning of to dye in the original. The usage of the word in English is confused by those who transliterated the word rather than translating it as immerse. Sprinkling is not immersion.

The New Testament writers (apostles and prophets) used the word in every context to indicate an immersion or complete burial or overwhelming in the element whether it be fire, water, spirit, or cloud. Immersion is affirmed in John's Baptism when he was doing so where there was much water and fully described in Acts 8:27-37 in the baptism of the Ethiopian.

Fire and Spirit immersion are two elements described by John in Matt 3:11. In one sprit would be good in the other fire is not good as it refers to eternal fire of hell. Baptism of repentance for remission of sins was introduced by John and Jesus commanded the apostles to take that action of immersion in His name (authority) as the initiatory obedience for believers in the gospel preached. Baptism had nothing to do with Judaism or Judaizers who bound the Law with circumcision.

Being born again of water and spirit is the conversion of a sinner to salvation in Christ where one is cleansed by his blood and receives every spiritual blessing. Gal 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-5 show clearly that one is immersed into Christ. Once dead, buried and raised to walk in newness of life having put on Christ. Sincerely, Donald Raby


When Baptisms are performed at many churchs the Preacher always says, "Dead in your sins", (while dunking them) and then raised to walk in a newness of life (while bringing them up out of the water)

Or something to that effect.

And Baptize does seem to fit in Both places doesn't it... ::lookaround:: ::smile::
Both what happened to Joseph's coat (he became dead to Jacob when it was shown to him) and then found alive later....all rich and important.

Offline DCR

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #122 on: Fri Sep 04, 2009 - 19:17:25 »
Yes... Judiasm was a problem back them.. the Jewish christians were losing their exclusive identity and were struggling with how to admit gentiles into the new fledgling christian faith.

Besides, John the baptism foretold that water baptism was only a temporary rite... did he lie?

No, John didn't lie... because that isn't what he said.


When we become Christians now, we are baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.. not water.

That's a twisting of what John said.  For one who derides 21st century Americans reading and interpreting Scripture, you sure do a number from a twisted rendering of one verse, contradicting all other scriptures on baptism's place in the New Testament.

Offline zoonance

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Offline Joker2

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #124 on: Sun Sep 06, 2009 - 22:44:43 »
John 3:16  (no water required) ::smile::

ex cathedra

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #125 on: Fri Feb 12, 2010 - 21:38:33 »
 
  ::announcment::here is two verses wrritten  about some ---------"unbaptized believers in their own way".

Luke 7:30
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.


 BE SURE TO  read the before and after texts OF JOHN 3:5-7  SO YOU KNOW its talking about "water baptism"


John 3:5-7
 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. 
Acts 2:38-39
======================================================================
 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."




Ephesians 5:25-27 

 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.




Titus3:5-7


Titus 3:5-7
5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. ::clappingoverhead::


 
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2010 - 22:01:09 by ex cathedra »

Offline jentle1

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #126 on: Tue Feb 16, 2010 - 18:27:07 »
The Bible says there is ONE baptism. I believe that baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I believe water baptism was temporary...a physical shadow of the true that was to come after Christ's death and resurrection.  Where the Bible says you must be born of the water and the Spirit, the word "water" implies the mother's womb. So, it is saying that it is not enough to be born of the physical womb, but you must be born of the Spirit. 

I cannot help but rejoice in the grace of God, and the love of Jesus, every time I think of it! Salvation IS a personal "knowing" that nobody can take away from me! Woo-hoo!

Offline zoonance

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #127 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 07:37:18 »
water might imply womb, but it would be odd to tell a physically born man that he as to be physically born...   That explanation always sounds like a stretch in order to justify a stand.

Offline jentle1

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #128 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 08:58:43 »
My point was that the verse is not saying that you have to be baptized in water AND in the Spirit.  The verse is making a distinction between physical birth and spiritual birth.  And, there is only ONE baptism, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and in water (total immersion), but after much study, I changed my mind regarding water baptism.

Offline xpressmyfaith

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #129 on: Tue May 11, 2010 - 07:46:49 »
Baptism is important in a life of Christian but it is not necessary for salvation. It publicly symbolizes that your sins were washed away by putting your faith in Jesus Christ.

{edited to remove link per forum rule 3.3}
« Last Edit: Tue May 11, 2010 - 08:11:07 by OldDad »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #130 on: Tue May 11, 2010 - 08:02:00 »
"necessary for salvation" is where this discussion always gets hung up.  The bottom line is, though, that to be an obedient and faithful disciple of Jesus, you must be baptized.  He commanded it.  Therefore, an unbaptized disciple, refusing to be baptized, is by definition disobedient.  Why would a believer choose to stay in such a state?

“Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes.”
~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
« Last Edit: Tue May 11, 2010 - 08:44:27 by James. »

Offline evangelist 1

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #131 on: Tue May 11, 2010 - 16:46:10 »
"necessary for salvation" is where this discussion always gets hung up.  The bottom line is, though, that to be an obedient and faithful disciple of Jesus, you must be baptized.  He commanded it.  Therefore, an unbaptized disciple, refusing to be baptized, is by definition disobedient.  Why would a believer choose to stay in such a state?

“Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes.

ex cathedra

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« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2010 - 00:53:42 by ex cathedra »

Offline NTPREACHER4U

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #133 on: Thu Jun 17, 2010 - 01:24:31 »
John 3:16  (no water required) ::smile::

 ::clappingoverhead::    Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. With the heart man believes unto righteouness with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Phillph wouldn't baptize someone unless they believe with all their heart that Jesus is the son of God, which came from his confession of faith.

Grace to all.

Offline kensington

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #134 on: Thu Jun 17, 2010 - 02:58:45 »
My dad was a "Believer" for 31 hours before he died.  He was not baptized.  But, I know without a shadow of a doubt that he was indeed saved and will be in Heaven.  I was there when he got saved.  So no, unbaptized believers are not lost. 

I know in 9 pages of post this has been said, but I'll go ahead and mention it again...  Because it's good stuff.... Jesus did not tell the thief on the cross that he had to get down and be baptized to go to Heaven.  He believed Jesus was the Messiah and asked Jesus to remember him.  The Savior told him "YES". 

Offline vonny

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #135 on: Thu Jun 17, 2010 - 05:14:22 »
Kensington,

that's great that your dad found peace with God before he passed away. I've heard one or two similar stories, one of a friend's dad, who changed once he put his trust in Christ, before his death.

Offline Jaime

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #136 on: Thu Jun 17, 2010 - 06:58:42 »
Kensington, I too believe your Dad was saved, BUT his case does not excuse people that have the opportunity and the possibility to be baptized. Refusal to be baptized upon belief, confession and repentence is disobedience. The exceptions doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. God is not going to condemn a quadraplegic stranded alone in the Sahara that comes to Jesus separated from a baptisty by a pit of King Cobras . But God will wonder about the heart of a healthy 20 year old that is intent on ignoring the command of water baptism because John 3:16 didn't mention it. I know several of those folks. There are plenty of other scriptures to convict a person to be pretty much immediately baptized if at all possible. Hence Mark 16:16. Even considering the point of salvation is prior to baptism, this scripture and many others indicate that the first century believers were water baptized as soon as possible. The thief on the cross does not nullify or amend this understanding. It is as your dad's case, an exception, made by the Lord himself by the way. And prior to Christ's command to be baptized.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2010 - 21:58:27 by Jaime »

blituri

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #137 on: Thu Jun 24, 2010 - 19:55:44 »
John 1:12 But as many as received him,
        to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
        even to them that believe on his name:

Believe is: Credo to commit or consign something to one for preservation, protection

After Pentecost:

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word
        were baptized:
        and the same day there were added unto them
        about three thousand souls

Those being saved at baptism were added to the Church by Christ: it's His move.
There is no one added to the church without baptism.
Since "church" is for DISCIPLES (Students) it was not possible for the thief to be asking for what salvation meant.

Credo to commit or consign something to one for preservation, protection

We don't get safe answers to teach others their duty from I-Think-So chapter one.

Pl. Trin. 4.2 And would he have been such a fool
     as to entrust to me a thousand Philippean pieces,
     which gold he bade me carry to his son,
     and to his friend Callicles,
     to whom he said that he had entrusted his affairs?
Would he have entrusted them to me if he had not known me, and I him, very intimately?...

A person, that I know not who he is,
      and have never beheld him with my eyes before this day,
      should I be entrusting gold to him?
      A man, to whom, if his life were at stake,
             I would not entrust a dump of lead.
.

Trusting in your own level of "believing" something is NOT trust: never trust anyone who encourages you to tamper with the Word as it has been delivered to us and believed for all of these years.

The FACT is that while "sprinkling" got too common, there is NO exception to the views of the Church of Christ until after the Reformation. Then, those who said "baptism does not save" quickly added "without faith."

While misunderstood, Zwingli mingled "justification" and "salvation" for the first time in history. He said that "all of the doctors before him were wrong." He claimed to have invented "faith only" and Luther agreed that he DID invent faith only.

Sola Fide to Martin Luther meant Sola Scriptura and since you couldn't have faith without believing what Scripture says about baptism, salvation is Sola Baptisma.  Martin Luther's paper on adult baptism could be used by most in the Church of Christ.

John Calvin wrote a long piece on baptism and listed many of the things we receive because promised as a result of being baptized.  He denied that baptism was just a symbol although baptism is the outward commanded act which invites Christ to give us A holy spirit or A good conscience or a conscience sprinkled an UNholy spirit.






Offline zoonance

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #138 on: Thu Jun 24, 2010 - 20:13:54 »
Are teachers of "don't need to be baptized" false teachers?  Are the sheep starving to death from the dry pastures?

blituri

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Re: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
« Reply #139 on: Thu Jun 24, 2010 - 20:34:48 »
Tertullian on the Necessirty of Baptism c155-220

Chapter I.-Introduction. Origin of the Treatise.
Happy is our 1 sacrament Of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed (in the faith), but them who, content with having simply believed, without full examination of the grounds 2 of the traditions, carry (in mind), through ignorance, an untried though probable faith.

The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism.

Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and basilisks themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places.

But we, little fishes, after the example of our Icqus 3 Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, 4 knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!

Chapter II.-The Very Simplicity of God's Means of Working, a Stumbling-Block to the Carnal Mind.

Well, but how great is the force of perversity for so shaking the faith or entirely preventing its reception, that it impugns it on the very principles of which the faith consists!

There is absolutely nothing which makes men's minds more obdurate than the simplicity of the divine works which are visible in the act, when compared with the grandeur which is promised thereto in the effect; so that from the very fact, that with so great simplicity, without pomp, without any considerable novelty of preparation,
       finally, without expense, a man is dipped in water,
       and amid the utterance of some few words, is sprinkled, and then rises again,
       not much (or not at all) the cleaner,
       the consequent attainment of eternity 
       is esteemed the more incredible.

I am a deceiver if, on the contrary, it is not from their circumstance, and preparation, and expense, that idols' solemnities or mysteries get their credit and authority built up.

Oh, miserable incredulity, which quite deniest to God His own properties, simplicity and power! What then? Is it not wonderful, too, that death should be washed away by bathing?