newtome

We've discussed our respective perspectives at length.   Not sure anything new can be added.  I'm afraid that I don't see
Scripture supporting your conclusions that God tenders different graces in response to our different actions.  Actually, I believe according to Scripture, His grace is given in spite of our doing - not because of it.  Anyway, I've written on this already and appreciate your polite exchange.  

I just believe that it is error to think that God's grace is dependent upon a series of actions by man.  It's dependent upon all the doing of the Lord Jesus Christ.  We, just have to trust in Him for God's grace.  newtome, there is a focus problem - placing much too much focus on the person and not on the Lord Jesus Christ.  

Take a look at your last post:  "in a like manner I can do a deed..."  No, newtome, the Truth of the matter is you can't.  I hope that you will prayerfully consider this.

Thanks for your expressions.

Steve

Todd

A couple of quick points:

1.  Thanks for the clarification.

2.  Paul tells us we are sinners by nature.  Please read Romans 8, verses 1 through 11.  Galatians 5: 16 and 17.   Paul writes that we are all sinners and the result of sin is death.  By our very nature we are sinful.  By God's grace through faith we are imputed with Christ's righteousness and enabled to live by the Spirit that dwells within us.  As a side note, Todd, if we can't see our sin for what it is, we will never be able to see Christ Jesus and all who He is.

3.  When Jesus is talking of a child or children, He is talking about their eagerness to listen and obey and believe.  It is their humility that Christ wants us to have.  Matt 18:4; Psalms 51:17.  It doesn't mean they are without sin.  Psalm 51:5.  Sin entered into the world by one man and sin is defeated by one Man.  So says Scripture, Romans 5:12 - 17.

4.  I don't think I contradict myself.  When speaking of salvation, and I again stress SALVATION (you know, some will misstate my position on our [Christians'] call to obedience) our works/obedience is NOT taken into account our trust in JESUS' righteousness and obedience is.

I assume you grer up being taught a certain perspective and theology.  I know I am suggesting a complete paradigm shift in that thinking.  Or it might appear that I am.  But really what I am urging all to do is shift the focus from us and onto the Lord Jesus Christ.  

I prayerfully ask that you consider a study centered on God's sovereignty, our sin and God's plan of salvation - the core of which is grace.  Instead of scouring Scripture with a view of finding all manner of examples of man's obedience (and there a many of them), scour Scripture with a view of finding out what God does in the lives of those He chooses.  

I believe you will begin to see less of you and more of Christ and the examples of obedience in Scripture will take on new meaning and purpose.  Anyway, I submit this for your consideration but ask that you first take all of this to Christ in prayer.

Thanks, Todd

Steve

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nelta @ Jan. 29 2003,07:32)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nothing is said in the scriptures about having 7up and cornbread in the Lord's supper.  So according to the author's reasoning that is an abiblical question.[/quote]
No you are mixing your logic here.

Scripture tells us a lot of things that baptism does but it never says that it is the mystical moment of reconcilliation with God.

As to the Lord's Supper all we know about 7-up is that it hadn't been invented yet and the folks from Europe, Asia and Africa who transversed the Middle East had yet to make it to the Americas to discover corn (while we are at it they hadn't found potatoes yet either).

Passages dealing with the Lord's Supper only tell us of the use of what they did have.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (JerryBrooke @ Jan. 30 2003,11:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I just want to point out that nowhere in the bible do I remember seeing, "Age of Accountability."[/quote]
Hello Jerry,

So might you be saying that "the age of accountability" is simply abiblical as the author of the article is saying about "The unbaptized believer is lost" is abiblical?  Actually, what you said fits his reasoning perfectly.

However, the scriptures do speak of "the age of accountability" in that there is an age when someone IS accountable.  First he must be at an age that he can believe (have faith) without going through his parents' faith.  Then he must know that he sins AND he must be willing to not only acknowledge that he sinned but be able to repent (turn away from) those sins and THEN he must be immersed in water that he might  accept the grace offered at the cross.  He must immulate the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

So there is indeed an "age of accountability" and that is not abiblical.

Nelta

Nelta Brock
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Can I take God completely for granted and still be justified?

example. I drive up to a bridge. Before crossing I stop the car, get out, and look at the bridge. I can see that the timbers are sound, the joints are firm, the planks are all there, the pilings a buried: it's all good. So I hop in and start driving on it. Thing is, this is a 100 mile-long bridge. At first, I'm singing praises to the wonderful bridge and the amazing efforts of its builders. However, about 10 miles along, my mind is a million miles away. I have so much faith and trust in that bridge that I simply don't think about it.

At one point in my life, I put my complete trust in God to save me through Jesus. I reaffirm that faith every single day. Now if, someday, I simply stop thinking about it, will the bridge ever collapse? Or is the integrity of the bridge somehow dependent on my appreciation of it?

newtome:

Hi and thanks for your comments.  Our theologies do differ and I appreciate the opportunity to explore those differences.  I have not referred to Scripture very often in my recent writings and I think it is certainly time to do so.  Will you bear with me as I offer the following for your consideration?

God is totally sovereign (Job 37:23), the Creator of all things (Genesis 1) and that author of everything that is good.  Our Sovereign God owes us nothing  (Job 41:11).  He is not in the least obligated to us in any way (Romans 9:20and 21).   Yet, God loves us beyond imagination (John 3:16; 1 John 4: 10; 1 John 3:1).  So much so that perfect love was demonstrated in Christ's death (Romans 5:6-8).  We are sinners deserving death (Romans 6:23).  And how is this sin problem dealt with?  By trusting in all that Jesus accomplished in His perfect living, dying and rising.  We are saved by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) -  not by faith or obedience in order to merit God's grace.  That would allow a selfish boast, would it not?  But what about this grace?

I think it's important to focus on our spiritual condition apart from Jesus Christ - so that we can start to have an understanding of God's grace.  Please read Isaiah 53:6; Romans 3:10 - 20 for an idea of our sin and then read what our almighty and sovereign God thinks of our sin by reading Romans 1:18; even our righteous works and sin as revealed in Isaiah 64: 6 and 7.  We were in a dreadful, desperate place before being saved, weren't we?  There can be nothing, even in the slightest, coming from a person like me - a sinner, that merits righteousness apart from Christ Jesus.  In fact apart from Christ we would still be in that place.  (Remember, newtome, my comments have always been directed toward salvation - not the responsibilities we, as Christians, are commanded to meet and privileged to perform.)  Certainly we are to obey - the question is:  what is our motivation to obey?  Our motivation should be out of our love and reverence for God.  Right?  Not as a means from which we receive His mercy and grace.  God loves me in spite of my sin and in spite of any work and/or obedience on my part.  Grace means that God's love is not contingent upon my performance, it's in spite of it!!  He asks that I trust Him and Him alone.

My point with regard to obedience is if we bind one to obeying in order to receive God's grace or keep His grace, then we are making that a burden and that obedience will be for naught.   Ephesians chapter 2 spells it out very clearly what leads to salvation, especially in verses 8 through 10:  "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  (And yes, I do believe that God predestines our lives, newtome, because the bible says so.  Romans 8:28 -30.)

Lastly, for now  :D, I have never said that "nothing one does is a contingency for salvation".  We must have a saving faith/belief/trust in all that Jesus accomplished in His life, death and resurrection.  That is how our Lord's free gift is received - by His grace through faith.  Out of that faith from in our heart we gladly confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  Romans 10:10.  

Newtome, when we are pricked to the very core of our hearts of the reality of our spiritual bankruptcy, when we in desperation awake to our deadly condition and need to be rescued, and when we come to realize that God loves us so much that He died for you and me - we come to faith and we are, BY GOD'S GRACE, saved.  (Just want to emphasize - not shout   :) ).  And, because of this our hearts are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit.  That change leads to repentance, confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, obedience that results in our submission to baptism and a life of faithfulness by the transforming grace of God through the sanctifying power of His Holy Spirit.  You see, I think those things that many would say must be done in order to be saved - are actually responses to being saved.  Furthermore, those things mentioned are in a way barometers to measure where our hearts really are (this is my view).  Am I repenting, confessing, being baptized and remaining faithful in order to receive God's mercy and grace or am I repenting, confessing, being baptized and remaining faithful because I have been saved by God's grace through faith.  Newtome, I choose the latter.  

Why?  Because it makes so much sense.  But more importantly, it keeps as the core of the Gospel message the awesome grace of God and not a Gospel where the core is contingent upon my performance.  The performance that saves is Christ Jesus'.  The obedience that merits salvation is Christ Jesus'.  The blood that washes me clean is Christ Jesus'.  The sacrifice that paid my debt is Christ Jesus'.  And when it comes finally down to it Jesus says "Trust me".  And by God's power in my life, I choose to do just that.  To the glory of the Father for ever and ever.  Amen?

Well, I just read this over and I apologize for some of the rambling and perhaps disjointed thoughts.  I hope I haven't been confusing.  

Remember that Peter, the one who denied Christ three times and the one who deeply understood God's grace and forgiveness exhorts us to "grow in the grace and knowledge" of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Both the grace and knowledge are things we will continue to learn more about and to have revealed to us deeper and deeper meanings as God determines our capability to comprehend.  God's grace is more than just a word.  It is very awesome to comprehend.  I can't get my arms around it all - but I'm enjoying His teaching very much.  

Let me suggest two books.  The first one, written by a man I deeply respect and who's history is with the churches of Christ, is entitled "The Great Rescue" by Edward Fudge (Mr. Fudge, please forgive me for referring to you as Ed in a previous posting - I know you do prefer Edward  :doh: ) and the other is "Transforming Grace - Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love" by Jerry Bridges.  

Well, thanks for reading.  I think perhaps this will be my last long winded posting on this topic (I don't want to beat a dead horse) but I would be happy to respond to any questions as succinctly as possible.

Grace and peace to you, newtome.

Steve

jarschqua

Well, it seems that you're trying to make a point by comparing matters that are not comparable.  Scripture is quite clear that we are saved, we have salvation by God's grace, not of works or anything we might do to get it, but by grace through faith so THAT we will be able to perform those good works He planned in advance (before time) for us to do to the glory of the Father.  Ephesians 2:8-10.  

Now the Jericho example would work and be consistent with Ephesians 2:8-10 if we say that by God's grace He delivered Jericho to Joshua.  Now, by trusting God, loving Him for His great mercy - Joshua obeys God.  Joshua doesn't obey in order to take Jericho - he obeys because Jericho was already given by God's grace and Joshua has faith in what God proclaimed.  That's what gave Joshua Jericho - his faith in God.  It's pretty simple.  And notice how it constantly keeps the focus upon God and our desperate need for him and off of us who labor in vain in a desperate attempt to gain God's favor.

Steve

Thanks Todd... That seems to have worked.

I will read through it this weekend... If the Lord wills.