Christian Forums and Message Board

Rocketman,

I'm operating on a 'keyhole view' into you situation, so take this with the realization that I really know very little about your situation.

That said...

Let me propose some scenarios here...
Would a new preacher help solve the problem?
How about a new building?

I see changing the worship as an EXTERNAL attempt to change what is probably an INTERNAL - heart - problem.

Therefore, I would predict that changing the worship would make some of your people happy, others would leave, and if only those who favored the 'new' worship tradition remained, that would solve your implied simmering division over worship styles.

But I really don't see how it would solve the heart problem; I fear that people might be drawn to your worship style instead of to Christ.
And settle down into a new-found comfort zone.

Your congregation will have to make some hard decisions in the weeks, months, years ahead...
May the Holy Spirit and the Word of God lead your decisions though a soft heart and prayerful consideration.

What do we discern during the Lord's Supper?

In I Cor. 11:29 Paul says, "He that eateth and drinketh unworthely, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." The NIV says, "...without recognizing the body of the Lord..."

As I recall, W. Carl Ketcherside, in his Mission Messenger volume, "The Twisted Scriptures" mentions how the church came together to eat and drink, arriving and eating before everyone had arrived, as if they were afraid they wouldn't get enough, and in total disregard for the "lesser" members. Paul scolds them severely for this, saying, "So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other."

In the middle of these verses Paul urges them to "discern," or "recognize" the Lord's body, i.e., THE CHURCH, which they were failing to do by discrimination and runing ahead of one another. If they had "recognized the Lord's body,' and been considerate of one another, rather than acknowledging their appitite for food and interetainment, they wouldn't have taked the Lord's Supper in such an "unworthy" manner.

I tried to locate this statement in Ketcheerside's book just now and was unable to locate it. (I have all of his original Mission Messenger volumes.)

I know we want to recognize (discern) the Lord Himself while we commune with Him, but in context, this view fits pretty well; after all, this was the problem at Corinth.

Be that as it may, I have been in many situations in which the people discerned neither the Lord's physical body nor His body, the church. In a country church in TN where I was preaching while a student at Freed-Hardeman, we were standing for communion. I had just accepted the fruit of the vine, and was about to drink it, when the brother to my right, who just had, walked in front of me and, with an eraser lying in the window sill, started killing wasps in the window. That has been fifty years age, but I have never forgotten how I "discerned" this brother and his wasps during communion in TN.

On another occasion in WV, someone noticed a groundhog lying on a rock outside the country church. He called someone else's attention to it, and before communion was over, everyone was discerning a groundhog.

Did either of these persons or churches "acknowledge" the Lord's body. Did they think or one another, or did they think of the "objects of their devotion?"

Two points: The Lord's body could be either the body of the Lord Himself or His spiritual body, the church. And, it's probably just as out of order to hit the plate with a ring, walk up and down the aisle, rattle and bang during communion as it is to kill wasps or study groundhogs.

What think you on these two points?

Lacy

Bob, it sounds like a scene that should've been in "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou". So is that man saved? I don't really want anyone to answer that.

I like what you said JHTM. And it is the picture of both of course, as that is why we do sup with one another and share communion, but the problem was they were not discerning each other's needs. I at one time, was one of those who strained to be found acceptable and feared not thinking of the Lord while communion was being served. In the comic at www.sheepcomics.com, it has a cartoon called "supper stress" and his article with it made me laugh at myself. I'm so glad His love is much greater than I imagined it to be.

seekr

Since it's not possible to divorce ourselves from the externals while we are on this earth, it remains that they do matter.

For example, a reasonably safe and comfortable place to be while worshipping is a must, I think.  Not that I will refuse to worship if I'm ever trapped up a tree in a flood...  But I'm talking about worshipping with the brethren, in a group, at a pre-meditated time.

Well, to be very honest with you, the Lord's Suppers I have participated in at traditional churches have been nothing like that.

They are more like this:

Clank (someones wedding ring banging against the plate). Crunch, crunch, crunch (someone chewing the holy cracker).
Cough,Cough..............silence...........................silence.........

Footsteps (from the men walking back up the isle to start it all over again with the grape juice).

That's about it. It's called communion, but we don't communicate with each other. Some may pray privately, but why "gather together" to say private prayers?

Mike Root has a really good book on this subject called, "Unbroken Bread." He talks about how the Lord's Supper was designed for us to fellowship with each other in memory of the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection. He talks about how it should be then that we encourage, exhort, build-up, hold accountable, etc. other members of the body.

So, I thought Jeremy's article was right on. Not a revelation, and certainly not something I haven't heard before, but right on none-the-less.

Chris

Skip stated:
"And don’t try to convince me that the ‘traditional’ coc worship style is somehow wrong only because it originated in the 1950s or 1930s or 1830s or whenever – I think that you’ll find that no matter what changes you make, in 20 years - or one month -  that very change will have become the new ‘tradition’."

My comments were not that it was wrong, it is the implication that it is the-be all end all-only way to do it. Nothing can ever change.  I agree if we make the changes a law then we have missed the point.  I believe there is much more freedom than we typically allow for in most cofcs.  

The older members of the family ought to be mature enough to change if thats what it takes to connect with this new culture.  In our church we are really struggling right now with the 2 views I described earlier.  Yet are we really be faithful to God's word when we make no impact on our community at all?

Skip,
Through your keyhole view, I think you are on to something and that well could be part of our problem, though how does one ever really judge that without being judging?  I can say ancedotally that there are certainly those indications at times.  I've heard comments such as, "why should I have to change, if someone wants to come here they can change and be like me."  To me that is simply an unbiblical mindset. Paul certainly didnt operate that way nor did Jesus for that matter.  You are correct we have many difficult decisions ahead.  

Booty, I agree totally with your point.