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Author Topic: Experiential Worship  (Read 4887 times)

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Offline Rocketman

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« on: August 01, 2002, 05:04:01 PM »
I think Jeremy presents some interesting ideas.  

I think part of the problem today is many equate traditional cofc worship with being exactly like bibilical 1st century worship, when in fact it was likely very different.  Yet those of this mindset attempt to bind those man made traditions or styles and hold congregations hostage.

While traditional cofc worship may connect with some, it doesnt necessarily connect with everyone, particularly many of the younger generation.  What is wrong with songs on a screen?  Whats wrong with powerpoint in lessons?  Nothing, yet I had one brother tell me when we introduced powerpoint that "people just want to be entertained and we ought to go back to like they did it in the 1st century where they didnt need that."  Of course I replied that we need to cut the power all together if we want to really go back there.  And besides if we really replicated their worship it most likely would look a bit different than the American 1950 cofc style (not that that style is wrong, yet it can become something that we just go through the motions with).

I say this as someone from a very legalistic background yet as a parent with 3 kids, I see how some of the contemporary things connect with my kids who have grown up with video and tv.  I'd rather move out of my comfort zone and them be reached with the gospel than hold to a style that while nothing is necessarily unbliblical about it, doesnt connect to them.  I'm not saying we change doctrine or anything like that, but he command is to sing so what if we have a book or a screen.  
RM

PS I think this gets to the heart of most of our problems today in cofcs as there are 2 very distinctive mindsets. The we got it right circa 1950 and you cannot change it verses the we have freedom to worship in a culturally relevant manner incorporating technology and such into our worship.
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« on: August 01, 2002, 05:04:01 PM »

Offline Skip

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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2002, 09:16:31 PM »
Rocketman,

I'm operating on a 'keyhole view' into you situation, so take this with the realization that I really know very little about your situation.

That said...

Let me propose some scenarios here...
Would a new preacher help solve the problem?
How about a new building?

I see changing the worship as an EXTERNAL attempt to change what is probably an INTERNAL - heart - problem.

Therefore, I would predict that changing the worship would make some of your people happy, others would leave, and if only those who favored the 'new' worship tradition remained, that would solve your implied simmering division over worship styles.

But I really don't see how it would solve the heart problem; I fear that people might be drawn to your worship style instead of to Christ.
And settle down into a new-found comfort zone.

Your congregation will have to make some hard decisions in the weeks, months, years ahead...
May the Holy Spirit and the Word of God lead your decisions though a soft heart and prayerful consideration.
::saint::
Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then...

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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2002, 09:16:31 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2002, 07:39:49 AM »
It seems the Lord has given us many different ways of worshiping him. The grace is that we get to approach Him at all, whatever the style may be. It's about Him ... and yes, also about us, but that really becomes about Him too, as our fellowship with one another is about helping each other grow into His image, isn't it?

Here's an article at the Taize' Community site, about the value of silence ... just by way of a "for example" regarding worship ...
http://www.taize.fr/en/index.htm?page=/en/enpraric.htm

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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2002, 07:39:49 AM »

Offline Lacy

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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2002, 10:41:31 PM »
What do we discern during the Lord's Supper?

In I Cor. 11:29 Paul says, "He that eateth and drinketh unworthely, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." The NIV says, "...without recognizing the body of the Lord..."

As I recall, W. Carl Ketcherside, in his Mission Messenger volume, "The Twisted Scriptures" mentions how the church came together to eat and drink, arriving and eating before everyone had arrived, as if they were afraid they wouldn't get enough, and in total disregard for the "lesser" members. Paul scolds them severely for this, saying, "So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other."

In the middle of these verses Paul urges them to "discern," or "recognize" the Lord's body, i.e., THE CHURCH, which they were failing to do by discrimination and runing ahead of one another. If they had "recognized the Lord's body,' and been considerate of one another, rather than acknowledging their appitite for food and interetainment, they wouldn't have taked the Lord's Supper in such an "unworthy" manner.

I tried to locate this statement in Ketcheerside's book just now and was unable to locate it. (I have all of his original Mission Messenger volumes.)

I know we want to recognize (discern) the Lord Himself while we commune with Him, but in context, this view fits pretty well; after all, this was the problem at Corinth.

Be that as it may, I have been in many situations in which the people discerned neither the Lord's physical body nor His body, the church. In a country church in TN where I was preaching while a student at Freed-Hardeman, we were standing for communion. I had just accepted the fruit of the vine, and was about to drink it, when the brother to my right, who just had, walked in front of me and, with an eraser lying in the window sill, started killing wasps in the window. That has been fifty years age, but I have never forgotten how I "discerned" this brother and his wasps during communion in TN.

On another occasion in WV, someone noticed a groundhog lying on a rock outside the country church. He called someone else's attention to it, and before communion was over, everyone was discerning a groundhog.

Did either of these persons or churches "acknowledge" the Lord's body. Did they think or one another, or did they think of the "objects of their devotion?"

Two points: The Lord's body could be either the body of the Lord Himself or His spiritual body, the church. And, it's probably just as out of order to hit the plate with a ring, walk up and down the aisle, rattle and bang during communion as it is to kill wasps or study groundhogs.

What think you on these two points?

Lacy

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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2002, 10:41:31 PM »

Offline seekr

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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2002, 03:46:48 PM »
The body is the church. And discerning the body of the Lord is not speaking of a moment or moments of hushed silence while we try to concentrate on whom we were bought by, but we are to always discern the the church, by loving as Christ has loved us. All of this is about the law of love and how "we know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers." 1John3:14. All of scripture ties in together when you grasp that concept of loving one another WITH God's love working through us. This is what fulfills the law and why those who were not showing concern for the poor were breaking that law while breaking bread together and were supposed to be having  a time of fellowship and sharing, with knowing that Christ had paid for them and it was not about just looking after their own interests. Jesus greatest concern was for the poor and the oppressed and the bruised. He does not take it lightly when His church treats each other with a lack of discernment. I see this in the "church" when others look down on the poor and judge them as not being blessed by God and not showing mercy. The supper is not a ritualistic time of concentrating on God...it is a time to fellowship and remember what Christ has done and communing with your brothers IN LOVE. It should still be a supper and a time to celebrate with each other.

seekr

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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2002, 03:46:48 PM »



Offline seekr

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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2002, 11:56:44 PM »
Bob, it sounds like a scene that should've been in "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou". So is that man saved? I don't really want anyone to answer that.

I like what you said JHTM. And it is the picture of both of course, as that is why we do sup with one another and share communion, but the problem was they were not discerning each other's needs. I at one time, was one of those who strained to be found acceptable and feared not thinking of the Lord while communion was being served. In the comic at www.sheepcomics.com, it has a cartoon called "supper stress" and his article with it made me laugh at myself. I'm so glad His love is much greater than I imagined it to be.

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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2002, 11:34:24 PM »
seekr, thanks for the thumbs up on sheepcomics.com ... I found the one you posted about -- made me laugh out loud.
The article with it is very good ... I've bookmarked that site and plan to go back and check out some more comics and articles.

Gotta run ... Hope everyone is having a blessed Lord's Day, and blessed week to everyone, too.

JHTM

Offline janine

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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2002, 08:40:31 PM »
Since it's not possible to divorce ourselves from the externals while we are on this earth, it remains that they do matter.

For example, a reasonably safe and comfortable place to be while worshipping is a must, I think.  Not that I will refuse to worship if I'm ever trapped up a tree in a flood...  But I'm talking about worshipping with the brethren, in a group, at a pre-meditated time.
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Offline chrischar

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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2002, 03:43:09 PM »
A worship service like this sounds very refreshing.
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2002, 03:43:09 PM »

Offline chrischar

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2002, 04:57:53 PM »
Well, to be very honest with you, the Lord's Suppers I have participated in at traditional churches have been nothing like that.

They are more like this:

Clank (someones wedding ring banging against the plate). Crunch, crunch, crunch (someone chewing the holy cracker).
Cough,Cough..............silence...........................silence.........

Footsteps (from the men walking back up the isle to start it all over again with the grape juice).

That's about it. It's called communion, but we don't communicate with each other. Some may pray privately, but why "gather together" to say private prayers?

Mike Root has a really good book on this subject called, "Unbroken Bread." He talks about how the Lord's Supper was designed for us to fellowship with each other in memory of the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection. He talks about how it should be then that we encourage, exhort, build-up, hold accountable, etc. other members of the body.

So, I thought Jeremy's article was right on. Not a revelation, and certainly not something I haven't heard before, but right on none-the-less.

Chris
\ o / Praise the Lord!

Offline kanham

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2002, 08:38:29 PM »
2 very distinctive mindsets have been around for a long time...

“Dr. A. W. Fortune in his book, “The Disciples in Kentucky,
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Offline Rocketman

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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2002, 08:57:14 PM »
Skip stated:
"And don’t try to convince me that the ‘traditional’ coc worship style is somehow wrong only because it originated in the 1950s or 1930s or 1830s or whenever – I think that you’ll find that no matter what changes you make, in 20 years - or one month -  that very change will have become the new ‘tradition’."

My comments were not that it was wrong, it is the implication that it is the-be all end all-only way to do it. Nothing can ever change.  I agree if we make the changes a law then we have missed the point.  I believe there is much more freedom than we typically allow for in most cofcs.  

The older members of the family ought to be mature enough to change if thats what it takes to connect with this new culture.  In our church we are really struggling right now with the 2 views I described earlier.  Yet are we really be faithful to God's word when we make no impact on our community at all?
Amazing Love, How Can It Be?  That You. My King. Would Die For Me.

Offline Booty

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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2002, 09:48:37 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And please, let?s not even imply that a worship that ?feels right?, is right![/quote]

But then also let us not imply that worship which "feels right" is inherently wrong.

Worship is a celebration of my Lord's love for me and my love for Him. Why ever would that not "Feel Right"?
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Offline Rocketman

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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2002, 10:07:10 PM »
Skip,
Through your keyhole view, I think you are on to something and that well could be part of our problem, though how does one ever really judge that without being judging?  I can say ancedotally that there are certainly those indications at times.  I've heard comments such as, "why should I have to change, if someone wants to come here they can change and be like me."  To me that is simply an unbiblical mindset. Paul certainly didnt operate that way nor did Jesus for that matter.  You are correct we have many difficult decisions ahead.  

Booty, I agree totally with your point.
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Offline janine

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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2002, 06:52:38 AM »
I remember reading something by Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, about how they always went to worship wherever was closest to their home.

If none of the externals ever matter, and it's all and only about the heart, I guess ol' Roy & Dale were doing the right thing.

Or is something more like a balance needed, a proper heart toward the Lord and the worship, while also paying attention to externals?

Hey, Chris, what is wrong with a contemplative silence?  Does every moment need to be filled with noise?

(That said, I did enjoy the soft sweet singing of appropriate songs during communion we did at a former congregation.  It was easier to keep my mind on the Lord and the Body with that going on, than with babies crying and toddlers babbling.)

(Chris, do the wedding rings hit the metal trays in rhythm?) :0
*You may not live in a glass house, but everyone has windows.*
* I'm a fool for Christ.  Whose fool are you? *
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