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Question: Should Doctors be forced to violate their morals?
yes   -1 (3.4%)
no   -28 (96.6%)
Total Voters: 30

Author Topic: Should Doctors be forced to violate their morals?  (Read 11292 times)
kmv
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2003, 09:38:48 AM »

Is the issue 'should a doctor have to violate her beliefs?' or is it 'should a medical provider/insurance company have to provide the care the provider has agreed to?'

If the treatments were supposed to be covered, and the patient had to go to an outside doctor because the in-network doctor wouldn't do the treatment, then the insurance company or the doctor who refused to treat needs to pay the bill.

Taking a moral stance (like refusing to inseminate a homosexual patient on moral grounds) is fine-but the doctor needs to be willing to pay the price of that moral stance.  

If the doctor's contracted with a provider to provide certain treatments, then she needs to fulfill her contract.  That's a moral responsibility as well.

Kari
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2003, 09:38:48 AM »

 
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kmv
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2003, 10:34:54 AM »

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that argument.  If a patient has purchased insurance to cover specified treatments, then that patient has the right to what tshe's purchased.  She's paid for it, it's hers.  

If the doctor doesn't want to perform the treatment for whatever reason, that's between the doctor and provider.  The burden of the doctor's decision not to fulfill her contract with the provider should not fall on the patient.

I think we sometimes forget that we are often obligated to pay a penalty for our decisions.  If we're not willing to pay that penalty, then is not much of a moral stance, is it?

Here's an example:

Say your church contracted with an advertising agency for a series of commercials.  You've paid the agency, but when you get to the studio, the director tells you "Sorry, I don't work with fundamentalists.  You'll have to go to an outside studio to get your commercial made.  And it's going to cost you LOTS extra."  Would you not expect the advertising agency or the director who refused to fulfill his contract to make good on the extra cost you incurred?  This is the same sort of thing.
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2003, 10:34:54 AM »

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WileyClarkson
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2003, 12:03:33 PM »

Kari,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If a patient has purchased insurance to cover specified treatments, then that patient has the right to what she's purchased. [/quote]

The insurance contracts are not guarentees of a physician providing the service if someone demands it--they are guarentees that the service--when provided-- will not be charged out at over the cost contracted between the physician and your insurance company, who is guarenteeing fast payment to the physician for the services rendered if the costs are held to the contracted amounts which can be quite a bit less than what that physician may charge otherwise.  A physician is a business person like anyone else who is in business.  He is obligated under his contract with an insurance provider to provide the proceedures he normally provides at the cost that the insurance provider contracts with him, in exchange for the referral he gets from the insurance provider.  However, he has the right to refuse to provide elective services to a given patient if he so desires, even though the insurance company may provide payment for the services, and he may, on occassions, provide the service under certain conditions.  All he/she really has to do is provide a referral when he/she is not willing to provide a particular service for a particular patient.  That is his/her right as a business person and owner of his/her own business, and his/her personal feelings about providing the service.  He/she may not feel qualified to provide the service in a manner that the the patient needs because of personal, moral, lack of proper facilities, or lack of training issues.  A good example of this is an OB/GYN who refusses to do abortions, even though it may be paid for by the insurance company.  My wife's OB/GYN has a sign posted in his office that says "We do not provide abotions, so don't ask".  Up front denial of service even though abortion is covered by some insurance companies.  Some small hospitals and physicians in my rural area have signs that say "we do not provide maternity services", even though most better insurance policies have that provission.  Up front denial of services, even though it is in the insurance provider's coverage.

As a patient, I sure wouldn't want to force a physician to treat me who is going to be impaired by personal feelings or lack of training that might hamper proper treatment!  Also, as a patient who pays the insurance premium, I have the responsibility of telling the physician that I wish to use an approved provider under my insurance policy for the service and that he/she needs to make the referral to that particular physician.
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2003, 12:34:10 PM »

Kari, I agree with you that we all must be prepared to pay the price when we take a stand for something.  However, you seem to be ignoring the right of the doctor to refuse to provide services in situations that are not life threatening.  Doctors do have that right.

You seem to be hung up on the lady being cheated out of her money.  She didn't pay the doctor who refused to treat her, she paid the insurance co.  If you think she was cheated by them, then perhaps she would have a right to a refund of the portion of her premium that could reasonably be considered to cover that particular treatment.  But that's between her and the insurance co., not the doctor.

She has some responsibility in this too.  It's her responsibility to choose a doctor that is covered by her plan - no one else's.  If she asked for a referral to a doctor on the plan list and they gave her one who wasn't, then she has a complaint, but still can't say that doctor #1 is responsible for her out-of-pocket costs.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If I'm going to chain myself to a tree to protest deforesting, then I have to be prepared to be cut down and jailed.  No fair for me to whine afterward that I was taking a moral stand.[/quote]

How about a different example?  I refuse to lie for my boss and he docks my next paycheck.  Is that a legitimate price for my moral stand?

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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2003, 01:10:45 PM »

You cannot force doctors to perform anything they morally object to. In fact, you can't force people to become doctors at all which is whats coming next if these stupid law suits don't stop.

There are many states with the problem of having plenty of insurance companies saying they will cover something, yet no doctors on the plan to perform procedures.
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2003, 02:14:03 PM »

Well based on what is in the article it was a covered procedure and the doctor had contracted to provide the service for that insurer.

Sounds like she got her first case knocked out by filing under the wrong statute.

I would be suprised if the insurance company isn't on the hook for the cost which they would go after the doc to recover.
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2003, 02:14:03 PM »

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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2006, 01:14:15 PM »

I say "Blame the insurance company!"  because... I do not sell insurance.
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ConnieLard
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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2006, 09:48:02 AM »

No, doctors should not be forced to violate their moral consciences, but they should be prepared to deal with the consequences of their actions.  It's not always easy to stand up for what you believe is right.
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2006, 11:40:05 AM »

As there anyone here that would want a doctor to take scalpel in an unwilling hand and go to work on them?
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2006, 11:40:05 AM »

 
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Barry H. Manners
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2006, 04:26:16 PM »

Quote
As there anyone here that would want a doctor to take scalpel in an unwilling hand and go to work on them?
Ideally no.  


However, I think that a doctor can be made to understand that certain unpleasant consequences will occur if his hand does not do the work in an efficient manner.

Back when Stalin ruled Russia some doctors went on strike to protest having their pay cut by half.  This was done to speed up rebuilding after World War Two and enable the government to buy raw materials and machinery from overseas.. It wasn't just the doctors who had their pay cut but just about all the professionals.

The local Communist Party official asked Moscow what to do, and of course, not to be disappointed the solution included LOTS of violence.

Moscow made an idex of what what diseases and surgeries any doctor should be able totreat or perform succesfully.  Those that were questionable were on the index as well as illnesses that were simply a lost cause.

The local official was told to march all of the doctors in front of the hospital where they worked and told:

"You have been given the opportunity to live and work in the glorious Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. However, you have been most ungrateful for your opportunities and it is causing must distress to your sick and ill countryman in this city.  A NKVD guard will pull out his pistol after the count of ten and will go down this line shooting any nurse or doctor that does not start walking back to work in the hospital. You will either work, and work in a competant fashion, or you will simply die.  We know what you should be able to treat effectively, and if a patient is not cured or does not get treated in a acceptable manner according to what our index tells us you will be shot for that too."

The official counts to ten, the doctors thinks it a bluff, so the NKVD agent pulls out his pistol and shoots one doctor though the head.  They all run back into the hospital never to cause trouble again.  In fact, they were rated best at Surgery and recovery in the whole nation after that!  This just goes to show that a little persuasion works wonders.


Here in the states, if a doctor will not a treat a patient in need of medical care, he should be locked up in prison and allowed to be someones boyfriend there for a week or two.
After his time in prison , he'll get back to work with zeal.

We are not slaves to our professionals.  We will be their masters and any bluff on their part can be called.[/color]
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2006, 04:26:16 PM »

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Mere Nick
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2006, 08:37:35 PM »

Quote
Here in the states, if a doctor will not a treat a patient in need of medical care, he should be locked up in prison and allowed to be someones boyfriend there for a week or two.
After his time in prison , he'll get back to work with zeal.

We are not slaves to our professionals.  We will be their masters and any bluff on their part can be called.
The only procedure I can think of that I've ever heard doctors being hesitant to perform due to moral considerations is abortions.  There may be others.

The idea of tossing someone into jail for such refusal, or shooting them, may be ok in the mind of Stalin but not in that of a civilized individual.

I've no interest in being a slave to any mere mortal, nor being the master of one.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2006, 10:40:15 PM »

Quote
Quote
Here in the states, if a doctor will not a treat a patient in need of medical care, he should be locked up in prison and allowed to be someones boyfriend there for a week or two.
After his time in prison , he'll get back to work with zeal.

We are not slaves to our professionals.  We will be their masters and any bluff on their part can be called.
The only procedure I can think of that I've ever heard doctors being hesitant to perform due to moral considerations is abortions.  There may be others.

The idea of tossing someone into jail for such refusal, or shooting them, may be ok in the mind of Stalin but not in that of a civilized individual.

I've no interest in being a slave to any mere mortal, nor being the master of one.[/color]
People are coerced to do things they otherwise wouldn't all the time.

I see no problem in coercing a doctor, especially when he is basically using his skills as an economic blackmail tool like those doctors in Russia were doing.
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2006, 11:32:15 PM »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Here in the states, if a doctor will not a treat a patient in need of medical care, he should be locked up in prison and allowed to be someones boyfriend there for a week or two.
After his time in prison , he'll get back to work with zeal.

We are not slaves to our professionals.  We will be their masters and any bluff on their part can be called.
The only procedure I can think of that I've ever heard doctors being hesitant to perform due to moral considerations is abortions.  There may be others.

The idea of tossing someone into jail for such refusal, or shooting them, may be ok in the mind of Stalin but not in that of a civilized individual.

I've no interest in being a slave to any mere mortal, nor being the master of one.
People are coerced to do things they otherwise wouldn't all the time.

I see no problem in coercing a doctor, especially when he is basically using his skills as an economic blackmail tool like those doctors in Russia were doing.[/color]
Such an idea could never arise except in a society of parasites and cannibals.  

I can't say it any better than Howard Roark:

"The 'common good' of a collective--a race, a class, a state-- was the claim and justification of every tyranny ever established over men. Every major horror of history was committed in the name of an altruistic motive. Has any act of selfishness ever equaled the carnage perpetrated by disciples of altruism? Does the fault lie in men's hypocrisy or in the nature of the principle? The most dreadful butchers were the most sincere. They believed in the perfect society reached through the guillotine and the firing squad. Nobody questioned their right to murder since they were murdering for an altruistic purpose. It was accepted that man must be sacrificed for other men. Actors change, but the course of the tragedy remains the same. A humanitarian who starts with declarations of love for mankind and ends with a sea of blood. It goes on and will go on so long as men believe that an action is good if it unselfish. That permits the altruist to act and forces his victims to bear it. The leaders of collectivist movements ask nothing for themselves. But observe the results.

"The only good which men can do to one another and the only statement of their proper relationship is--Hands off!

"Now observe the results of a society built on the principle of individualism. This, our country. The noblest country in the history of men. The country of greatest achievement, greatest prosperity, greatest freedom. This country was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism. It was based on a man's right to the pursuit of happiness. His own happiness. Not anyone else's. A private, personal, selfish motive. Look at the results. Look into your own conscience.

"It is an ancient conflict. Men have come close to the truth, but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell after another. Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2006, 11:32:15 PM »

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Barry H. Manners
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2006, 12:22:14 AM »

NICK:

Such an idea could never arise except in a society of parasites and cannibals.  

BH:

I disagree.  Anyone who has a skill and uses it to blackmail someone else is a parasite and cannibal in my opinion.

NICK:


I can't say it any better than Howard Roark:

"The 'common good' of a collective--a race, a class, a state-- was the claim and justification of every tyranny ever established over men.

BH:

This simply is not true.  The American Indians were wiped out so prospectors could sell their land to make money.  The same thing occurred in Africa and India with the only difference being Europeans were doing the dirty work.   They all  had the desire for $$$$$$ in common, though.

NICK:


Every major horror of history was committed in the name of an altruistic motive.

BH:

Why does no one blame the people who suffered the "horror" of the altruistic motive for what happened to them.  If they were selfish and greedy and refused to change their ways they got what they deserved in my opinion.


NICK:

 Has any act of selfishness ever equaled the carnage perpetrated by disciples of altruism?

BH:

I would say yes.  Look at what sociopaths and narcissists do to people at the workplace and at home for example.


NICK:

Does the fault lie in men's hypocrisy or in the nature of the principle?

BH:

Their hypocrisy


NICK:


The most dreadful butchers were the most sincere. They believed in the perfect society reached through the guillotine and the firing squad. Nobody questioned their right to murder since they were murdering for an altruistic purpose.

BH:

1. It was legal.

2. Why does no one blame the person who got executed for their execution?  If they broke the law, and/or refused to change their behavior they deserved what they got.  They may not like the new system, but it was the law of the land and the way things were going to be.  


NICK:

 It was accepted that man must be sacrificed for other men.

BH:  

Yes, a corporate executive will lay off thousands in the name of good economics.  They must be sacrificed for the good of the people in general and the company in particular.

NICK:

Actors change, but the course of the tragedy remains the same. A humanitarian who starts with declarations of love for mankind and ends with a sea of blood.

BH:

Again, if people had gone along with  it instead of trying to overthrow it then they would not have died.  These people have no one to blame but themselves.

NICK:


 It goes on and will go on so long as men believe that an action is good if it unselfish. That permits the altruist to act and forces his victims to bear it.

BH:

Yes, you got this right.  That is how it should be.  If a person refuses to change their heart they must suffer the consequnces of their actions.

NICK:

The leaders of collectivist movements ask nothing for themselves. But observe the results.

BH:

I admit this is often open to debate.

NICK:

"The only good which men can do to one another and the only statement of their proper relationship is--Hands off!

BH:

I agree with Moses that people have to be made to do the right thing.  I say "hands on" if they won't do it on their own.


NICK:


"Now observe the results of a society built on the principle of individualism. This, our country. The noblest country in the history of men. The country of greatest achievement, greatest prosperity, greatest freedom. This country was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism. It was based on a man's right to the pursuit of happiness. His own happiness. Not anyone else's. A private, personal, selfish motive. Look at the results. Look into your own conscience.


BH:

The Bible condemns selfishness.  Are you saying that the BIble is empirically proven false by America's prosperity?  

I would doubt that we are that prosperous.  Corruption is rampant in government and the business world.  It seems that people who hold narcissistic and sociopathic personalities are purposely and conciously recruited into management---and if you doubt this I have had this admitted by psychologists and several businessmen.  Look at our rates of drug use, depression, divorce, and suicide.  Yeah, we've done real well for ourselves.

NICK:

"It is an ancient conflict. Men have come close to the truth, but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell after another. Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

BH:

Yeah, to be picked off one by one.
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2006, 09:56:24 AM »

Refusing to use a skill you possess to perform a task you believe is immoral is not blackmail.

OD
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