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Thank you for that post. It bolsters me.

What you say is essentially true for salvation, but part of it is only true to obey and honor God.  I don't want to be critical here, but some Christians believe we must do a lot of good works to win heaven, and that is not the real gospel message.  Faith alone in Christ is salvation.  

That is not correct and that is not Biblical.

The Bible says we are saved by grace.

If we say that we are saved by faith, then we must ask where did this faith come from? Did you come to faith by yourself? If so then that means you are basically saying that you salvation depended on you which is what you are deriding on one who claims he is saved by works.

The important thing to remember is that we are saved by grace, that salvation is a gift.

The man who says he is saved by faith and the man who says he is saved by works both say the same thing so long as they think their faith and their work came from them.

A man who say he is saved by works but recognizes that his ability to do good works is given by God is more correct than the man who claims to be saved by faith but thinks this faith is due wholly to his own conjuring.

It is certainly true that one must receive the Lord Jesus into their heart by faith to be saved for heaven,  

No that is not Biblical.  I don't think you will find that in the Bible at all. Jesus said that those who do the will of the Father will be the ones who will go to heaven. The will of the Father is that we believe in the Son. And belief in the Son means that we do all He commanded and believe everything He said. Part of what He said is feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.

but most of the rest you mention has to do with honoring God and pleasing Him for our rewards and commendations when we get to heaven.  I just think we need to make that distinction here.  Look up always!

-Seriousseeker

Then that is nothing more than indirect egotism. You are praising God for what He will do for your when you get to heaven. That is nothing more than self-centredness and that wil not get you to heaven.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa

One thing glaringly missing from this discussion: Covenant.  Not mentioned once by anyone.

At its base, salvation is by covenant. We marry the Lord.

From God's persective, it is HIS Grace that is extended to us to enter that covenant, and from our perspective it is by faith that we access that grace.

Do works have a place? Yes. Both God's works (the death and resurrection of Messiah) and our own. (repentance, obedience) But it is not the works that are salvic, the covenant is.

Depends on how you understand salvation.

Salvation is not a mere getting to heaven.  I like how the Francis Beckwith put it: Salvation is getting heaven into you.  In short, salvation is about becoming holy - becoming transformed into the image of Christ.

So yes, works is salvific because works is transformative.  That is why Christ said that those who fed the hugry, clothe the naked, gave drink to the thirsty will enter the kingdom of heaven.  Christ did not give any caveats when He said that.  As a matter of fact, He was adamant that it is not those who call Him Lord, Lord who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but those who do the will of His Father. The will of His Father is expressed in the 10 Commandments. In short, it is obedience that tells us whether we are following the Will of the Father or not. Obedience implies work.

According to Saint Paul of Faith, Hope and Love the greatest is Love.  Love IS Work. 

Peace and All Good.

Teresa.

Teresa :If we say that we are saved by faith, then we must ask where did this faith come from? Did you come to faith by yourself? If so then that means you are basically saying that you salvation depended on you which is what you are deriding on one who claims he is saved by works."

There you go with Augustine's Irrestible Grace."  

There you go with misunderstanding what I said.  This is a bad habit pointmade so please try to erradicate it.

If we do not come to faith by ourselves by "hearing, and hearing by the word of God" ( Romans 10:17 ), then belief, faith, confession, repentance must be infused grace.

Faith is both a grace and a response.

As you yourself said, the initiative is first by hearing it.  The fact that you are able to hear at all, the fact that it gets to you at all is grace. Just think, some people hear and don't believe and then one day, voila they just do.

Faith is a grace and if you say otherwise then you are saying you save yourself.

But once this grace is given, then a response is asked of us. All of us are given enough grace to respond with a yes. Even those who responds with a no are given the same grace.  And this is where free will comes in. When we respond to that grace, this changes us and our faith grows.

But the initial action is always God's not man's.  To say otherwise is to hold to the heretical belief of pellagianism.

This is Augustine's theory that man is so depraved that he cannot understand the Gospel and must be revealed to him through the Church.

Total depravity is Calvin's who happens to be a protestant - just like you.

The Bible speaks clearly of God's universal desire to be gracious to all human beings.
( John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2 ).

Exactly! And that is what I have been saying all along but because you have this blinkered view and do not pay attention to the post you are respondig to, you have completely missed that.

You have this terrible habit of ascribing to others what they have not said at all. If you will only drop your preconcieved notions about the point that one makes, then you will realize that you do not have any issue against my post at all.

Is grace conditional? or must grace be infused by Holy Spirit regeneration?

Grace is not conditional. Grace is given to all but but we need to respond to this grace.
Ang yes, grace is infused. What this means is that grace has the capacity to change us, that it goes into the depths of our being.  If you extend your reading of the Bible beyond the common proof texts, you will realize this too.

If so, than grace is unconditional, and applied only to those of the "Elect."
All sinners need not apply!

Infused grace does not mean that they are only applied to the elect.  You do not understand what infused grace means. I suggest that before you attack this concept you read up on it. At the moment you are attacking a strawman.

What is your assurance? A shot of faith taken through the eucharist.

My hope is faith taken through the Eucharist who IS Jesus.

Peace and All Good.
Teresa

Teresa: "Grace is not conditional. Grace is given to all but but we need to respond to this grace.
And yes, grace is infused. What this means is that grace has the capacity to change us, that it goes into the depths of our being.  If you extend your reading of the Bible beyond the common proof texts, you will realize this too."

Well, I finally pulled the term "infused" out of you dear Teresa....

So what? Do you even know what infused grace means? You think you have a "gotcha" but you don't because you don't even understand what it means.

Pointmade, before you reply, read up on what it means and how infused grace relates to salvation.

This is exactly Augustine's doctrine of irresistible grace.
True, it is Calvinism...as related in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion. 

Well no. Infused grace does not mean irresistable grace. The only term that means irresistable is efficacious. You are getting your terms completely confused. Please read on this understand it before you reply again.

You write: "But once this grace is given, then a response is asked of us. All of us are given enough grace to respond with a yes. Even those who responds with a no are given the same grace.  And this is where free will comes in. When we respond to that grace, this changes us and our faith grows."

I see...and how does an infant respond with a "yes"? 

Where did I say that an infant responds with a yes.

Pointmade, before you respond read up first, at the very least a summary of what Predestination means, what grace means, what infused grace means and read up on how all this relate to baptism and salvation in general.

You and I both know that the RCC baptizes an infant to transform the little tyke from the unsaved to the saved
by an unconditional, unilateral, irresistible act of the Holy Spirit.

Not just children. Baptism washes all sins away and confers sanctifying grace that was lost by our first parents.

Now, maybe you can explain to me what is wrong that?

Were you Teresa, as a babe, able to respond to the gospel in FAITH? 

Who said that at baptism you need to be able to respond with a yes?

Are you saying that a severely mentally impaired person who is unable to give an assent should not be baptised? Strange kind of Christianity you preach.

Please do not say "yes," I am giving you the benefit of doubt as a intellect here.
Note that you have already written:....
"Faith is both a grace and a response."

Yes, faith. But not sanctifying grace. Sanctifying Grace is not faith.  Please learn to read better as this is getting very, very tiresome.

So, you can see why your words confuse me when you say:
"My hope is faith taken through the Eucharist who IS Jesus."

Do you not find that transubstantiation is a theory?

You really ought to broaden your reading if you are going to question dogma's. If you are going to attack something it is good to be knowledgeable about that something.

Transubstantiation is an explanation of what happens at the Eucharist. It is an explanation of how come, this bread is no longer bread but as Christ said, it His Body and Blood.

Before you reply, read up on it.

I ask this, because it was not until 831 that at pronouncement of the Mass, the bread is changed into
the historical body of Christ; it became that and nothing else.

Wrong. The Church has always believed that it is the Body and Blood of CHrist just as He said it is.  That is why Eastern Churches believe the same.  AS a matter of fact, the first challenge to this doctrine was from Berengarius of Tours in the 1100's. His teaching was regarded as heresy.

History reveals that an abbot of a monastery in France, Paschasius Radbertus, wrote a book "on the Body
and Blood of Christ," which, he dedicated to Emperor Charles the Bald as a Christmas gift (844).
Maurus Rabanus, archbishop of Mainz, Germany also a leading a theologian, opposed it as "a novelty"
and appealed to Augustine who had made a distinction between the historical and the Eucharistic body of Christ.

The view of Maurus Rabanus: Christ has three bodies:
The historical body, born of the Virgin Mary.
The Eucharistic body, created in the Mass.
The spiritual body, the Church. ( Also called the mystical body .)

Now, Teresa, the theory becomes interesting among the Catholic "brethren.
Radbetus was opposed to Ratramus' theory.
He argued that the Eucharist was the body of Christ "in mystery, not in verity."
( This was essentially a symbolic view. )

In the year 1049, a theologian named Berengar of Tours attacked the doctrine of transubstantiation.

The Radbertus and Ratramnus is irrelevant. As I said before sift through the data before you start posting otherwise you end up with this kind of response.

There was no doctrine of transubstantiation until St Thomas named it as such.

Before St Thomas there was only the belief that the Eucharist is indeed the Body and Blood of Christ but there was no explanation. Transubstantiation is how St Thomas explained this mystery to be.  It still remains a mystery but this shows a bit more clarity as to why it is so.

As a matter of fact, even Luther believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist although he did not believe in transubstantiation. Rather he believed that Christ is in, with and under the bread.

So, Teresa, your "faith is in the hope of the Eucharist," which In the 9th century the theory of transubstantiation
in the Catholic Church is marked as a "novelty," and 200 years later a man is marked as a heretic if he
opposed it. Yet, in 1215, the Fourth Lateran council declared transubstantiation to be a dogma of the pope.

You and a lot of protestants fall into this grave error of thinking that name preceeds reality. Just because something was named later does not mean that it did not exist until it was named. Otherwise, you were not a being until your parents named you.

Transubstantiation was always a reality that the Church that Christ established have always believed. It was only in the 12th century that they gave a name to it and an explanation of why.

I wouldn't let my imagination run away with me on the theory of transubstantiation that was kicked around
by men of the same cloth who never really came to an agreement.
I guess we could agree that the early Catholics ( before Augustine  ), never really received the "infusion" of grace?

But your imagination has in fact galloped at a speed that has left sense miles behind.

The Catholic Church ( which happens to be the Church that Christ established ) has always believed in the infusion of grace. You really have got no clue as to what you are talking about. You don't even know what infused grace is and why we say grace is infused.

Based on your responses, I believe you are deriving your information from usual anti-Catholic literature. Upgrade your reading. Study Catholic books and find out from us exactly what we believe.

Study pointmade. Study. Then you will know what is true.

Here are two links two Catholic sites that will explain to you what we believe and why we believe it.  And you will find that all Catholic beliefs are Biblical. It cannot be otherwise because we gave the world the Bible.

http://www.catholic.com/

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm


Peace and All Good

Teresa




[/quote]

Teresa: "Study pointmade. Study. Then you will know what is true."

Why would I need to study? Since you believe grace is "infused" ( to the "elect" of course ).

Why do you need to study?  Just for starters because of this one line.

You have no idea what infused grace means and nowhere did I say that grace is infused "only" to the elect.

You do not need only to study. You need to learn to read posts better.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

I will teel you as I have been trained according to the bible. First we must repent and accept Jesus for what He did for us. Then we must want God more then anything or anyone to get His Spirit into our heart because it is the only way that God will be first in your life. Then we must overcome sin and go throught the fire to become what God wants. Then when our life is over we can stand before God and hear Him say Enter My Rest. There are many scriptures that support what I teach like the second works of grace is found in the gospel of John 1:12 where it say (But as many as recieved Him ( who? Jesus) to them gave He power To Become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.) God trained me not some school that has been taken over by God's enemies.

In answer to the title of this thread, "What does it take to get to heaven?" The asnwer is the righteousness of God.

How are you stacking up? I know, I know. There is none righteous, no not one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  The good news is, the righteousness of God is unto all and upon all them that believe by the faith OF Jesus Christ!

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And where is the righteousness of God revealed? It is revealed in the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (and at the time Paul wrote Romans it was to the Jew first and also to the Greek)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

the gospel of Christ declared:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You shouldn't say that one has to DO something to be saved. When you do you are preaching an "other gospel" than that which Paul preached.

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Salvation is by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:4-7 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.