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Offline CDHealy

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« Reply #255 on: July 18, 2005, 10:46:06 AM »
That seems to be the two understandings of RM Christianity: either a restoration or a second reformation.

I tend to think the second more theologically plausible (on RM terms), though I am not well-acquainted enough with historic RM to know whether or not the former or the latter was the "original" RM view.
Benedict Seraphim
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5

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« Reply #255 on: July 18, 2005, 10:46:06 AM »

Offline CDHealy

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« Reply #256 on: July 18, 2005, 10:49:54 AM »
Oops.  Even though I refreshed, I didn't see the additional posts clarifying the terminology.

I have no particular axe to grind here.  I'm perfectly willing to accept the "second reformation" as the standard historical description.

The fact of the matter, however, is that popular RM'ism of the seventies and eighties, when I was raised and then educated at Bible college, saw RM as a "restoration" not so much a reformation.  (Though having said that, my RM history professor at Bible college acquainted us with the arguments for both pro and con.  I forget which side he came down on--if that was ever noted--though I would guess second reformation if my impressions/memories are accurate.)
Benedict Seraphim
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5

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« Reply #256 on: July 18, 2005, 10:49:54 AM »

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #257 on: July 18, 2005, 11:14:06 AM »
Quote
Oops.  Even though I refreshed, I didn't see the additional posts clarifying the terminology.

I have no particular axe to grind here.  I'm perfectly willing to accept the "second reformation" as the standard historical description.

The fact of the matter, however, is that popular RM'ism of the seventies and eighties, when I was raised and then educated at Bible college, saw RM as a "restoration" not so much a reformation.  (Though having said that, my RM history professor at Bible college acquainted us with the arguments for both pro and con.  I forget which side he came down on--if that was ever noted--though I would guess second reformation if my impressions/memories are accurate.)

That's also how my dad was taught it, as well. And while its true that Campbell advocated a restoration of the ancient order as a means toward unity, he only did so from about 1824-1837, at which time he abandoned restoration as a means toward unity.

Some view Campbell primarily as a restorationist, however I believe that's a misunderstanding of him (though perhaps an understandable one); there's evidence from 1824 that he was willing to accept as brothers in Christ people who disagreed with his elements of his restoration platform-such as German Dunkard Jacob Hufstaedtler, whose German Baptist churches united with Campbell's in 1828, not to mention Barton Stone, who disagreed with nearly every item in Campbell's restorationist agenda, yet his and Canmpbell's churches formally united on New Years' Day, 1832.

There are several recent threads in the Theology Forum where we discussed and debated this. Though I'd be willing, I don't think anyone else really wants to re-hash those arguments here. You can read primary sources at Dr. Hans Rollmann's "Restoration Movement" website:

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/restmov.html

Pax.[/color]
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

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« Reply #257 on: July 18, 2005, 11:14:06 AM »

Offline tidbit

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« Reply #258 on: July 18, 2005, 11:29:30 AM »
Clifton,

Since I am the one who originally posted your thoughts on Ecumenism, I want to sincerely welcome you to the Grace Centered Message board.  As you know, I've been following your blog for some time now, and I am very (!!) pleased that you have joined us.

Haven't had time to read your third installment on ecumenism, so I think I'll do that now.....

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« Reply #258 on: July 18, 2005, 11:29:30 AM »

Offline s1n4m1n

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« Reply #259 on: July 18, 2005, 12:36:51 PM »
Whether it was a reformation or a restoration (and there can be no doubt that both thoughts existed in the early Movement), it doesn't matter too much. If it was a second reformation further developing the original Protestant reformation then it is on the same dead end street. If it was a restoration (and by that I mean bringing back something that for all intents and purposes ceased to exist) then one has to wonder if there wasn't a good reason for it passing away in the first place.

Ken

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« Reply #259 on: July 18, 2005, 12:36:51 PM »



Offline tidbit

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« Reply #260 on: July 18, 2005, 12:58:09 PM »
Clifton wrote:
Quote
The RM hermeneutic goes to great lenghts to affirm what the Scripture says about the efficacy, in salvific terms, of baptism (thus thinking of it as a sacrament, though without the terminology), and  yet goes to great lengths to avoid the conclusions of their own hermeneutic when applying it to the texts on the Lord's Supper, and embrace a distinctly anti-NT conclusion that it is *merely* a memorial.

You have stated this more succinctly than I ever could.  This is really starting to bother me.  The CoC has two sacraments, even though we strongly deny it.  (I guess you could call it a semi- or pseudo-sacramental view.)

First, baptism--has to be done a certain way, with the right words and understanding, almost universally by another member of the church, is absolutely necessary for salvation, etc., etc.

The second is the Lord's Supper--it has to be done on the first day of each week and is very important--so much so that we deliver it to shut-ins and have a second service in the evening so that those who were not able to attend in the morning can partake in the evening.  Also, many people attend church for the primary reason of partaking communion, as evidenced by the fact that people commonly get up and leave the service as soon as communion is over with.

To me, these issues are fundamental within the CoC, and they constitute a great deal of our identity--they are what largely distinguish us from protestant groups.  So, if we can get people to view these elements for what they are--sacramental--we are 75% of the way to orthodoxy.

(And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its butt on the ground.)[/color]

Offline CDHealy

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« Reply #261 on: July 18, 2005, 01:21:16 PM »
Quote
To me, these issues are fundamental within the CoC, and they constitute a great deal of our identity--they are what largely distinguish us from protestant groups.  So, if we can get people to view these elements for what they are--sacramental--we are 75% of the way to orthodoxy.

(And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its butt on the ground.)

This is what happened with me.  Once I saw that the New Testament spoke clearly of the Lord's Supper as sacramental, the implications and conclusions worked themselves out so that I'm on the cusp of the Orthodox Church.[/color]
Benedict Seraphim
Blog: *Link Removed*

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5

Offline tidbit

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« Reply #262 on: July 18, 2005, 01:32:44 PM »
Quote
This is what happened with me.  Once I saw that the New Testament spoke clearly of the Lord's Supper as sacramental, the implications and conclusions worked themselves out so that I'm on the cusp of the Orthodox Church.
I naively followed the "memorial" position, having never studied the LS in detail.  Then, on BOG's (that's 'boringoldguy's') suggestion, I read The Imitation of Christ[/i] and studied the scriptures.  Talk about an epiphany!  My eyes were opened.  As you say, the New Testament is clear on the issue.

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #263 on: July 18, 2005, 01:36:51 PM »
Quote
Quote
To me, these issues are fundamental within the CoC, and they constitute a great deal of our identity--they are what largely distinguish us from protestant groups.  So, if we can get people to view these elements for what they are--sacramental--we are 75% of the way to orthodoxy.

(And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its butt on the ground.)

This is what happened with me.  Once I saw that the New Testament spoke clearly of the Lord's Supper as sacramental, the implications and conclusions worked themselves out so that I'm on the cusp of the Orthodox Church.
I was taught as a kid two views. The first was that the True Church ceased to exist sometime after the death of the last apostle, and that the Church of Christ had restored it (though neither Stone nor the Campbells were ever mentioned); the second view was that the gates of hell could not prevail against Christ's Church and that Churches identical to ours had always existed down through history. Yet when I would ask my parents and teachers where this Church of Christ was they would say they didn't know but that it must have always existed somewhere. Preachers always point to the Toddlebank Church in 1600s England, which styled itself a "Church of Christ," however they apparently have never read anything about this church, as, among other "false teachings," it had a creed, and didn't much resemble any churches in our fellowship.

I have a friend who converted to the Greek Orthodox Church for similar reasons as you did-that and to get back at his parents for his strict CoC upbringing.

Personally, I'm not yet willing to jump ship, because I think our tradition has many viable and valuable things still to offer Christianity; I'm not willing to let leaglism or a staid traditionalism co-opt it. If I didn't believe their was hope for Churches of Christ I'd probably become non-denominational or Baptist.

Pax.[/color]
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

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« Reply #263 on: July 18, 2005, 01:36:51 PM »

Offline DCR

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« Reply #264 on: July 18, 2005, 01:47:29 PM »
Quote
Yet when I would ask my parents and teachers where this Church of Christ was they would say they didn't know but that it must have always existed somewhere.
I heard a preacher once give an analogy about seeds lying dormant.  He talked about seeds being in the pyramids for thousands of years and how they could be planted and begin growing again.

So, some don't argue that the church "ceased to exist" as much as they say that it "went dormant."  After hundreds of years of apostasy, lo and behold, someone found them seeds...  :shrug:

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #265 on: July 18, 2005, 01:53:50 PM »
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Quote
Yet when I would ask my parents and teachers where this Church of Christ was they would say they didn't know but that it must have always existed somewhere.
I heard a preacher once give an analogy about seeds lying dormant.  He talked about seeds being in the pyramids for thousands of years and how they could be planted and begin growing again.

So, some don't argue that the church "ceased to exist" as much as they say that it "went dormant."  After hundreds of years of apostasy, lo and behold, someone found them seeds...  :shrug:[/color]
DCR, that view sounds somewhat similar to the view espoused by Ed Pobre's Iglesia Ni Cristo, which teaches that God allowed the True Church to go into some kind of "suspended animation," until Felix Y. Manaolo revived or restored it in 1914, although, according to Ed, no one was saved between roughly AD 100 and AD 1914.

Pax vobiscum.
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

Offline winky

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« Reply #266 on: July 18, 2005, 01:58:05 PM »
For what it's worth in the more progressive side of the CoC, many would consider Catholics and Orthodox as brethren, although they would disagree on a number of issues. I've been in the CoC for 26 years now and never been taught that there were no Christians except the CoC. (I was told that some CoC people believed that, but none of the churches I've attended promoted that belief.)

I'd hardly consider the CA2005 to be reaching out toward Catholicism, as Ken does, despite their quote. But I do see, among the more progressive side of the fellowship, much less hostility toward Catholics and a reaching out to embrace certain parts of Catholicism. For example, my church has Taize worship services occasionally on Sunday nights for anyone who wishes to attend. My understanding is that the Taize tradition is borrowed from Catholicism. Also, we do responsive readings and recitations (such as the Lord's Prayer -- every Sunday). Also, at ACU's Lectureship, I believe I remember seeing a class called "Embracing Your Inner Catholic"! (Interestingly, I think it was a youth ministry class.)

Now, the caveat there is that the more progressive side of the movement is equally (or more) interested in fellowship with other Protestant groups and most would still consider the CoC to be much closer to Baptists and non-denom. churches than to Catholics or Orthodox. And, most on the progressive side, while not condemning denominational structure as sinful, are not terribly interested in embracing it themselves. At least, that's my perception from my little slice of the world!

Wendy
"This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it."

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« Reply #267 on: July 18, 2005, 02:05:08 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Yet when I would ask my parents and teachers where this Church of Christ was they would say they didn't know but that it must have always existed somewhere.
I heard a preacher once give an analogy about seeds lying dormant.  He talked about seeds being in the pyramids for thousands of years and how they could be planted and begin growing again.

So, some don't argue that the church "ceased to exist" as much as they say that it "went dormant."  After hundreds of years of apostasy, lo and behold, someone found them seeds...  :shrug:
DCR, that view sounds somewhat similar to the view espoused by Ed Pobre's Iglesia Ni Cristo, which teaches that God allowed the True Church to go into some kind of "suspended animation," until Felix Y. Manaolo revived or restored it in 1914, although, according to Ed, no one was saved between roughly AD 100 and AD 1914.

Pax vobiscum.
It was actually my first exposure to ed that really rattled me and was a wakeup call that some of those sentiments in our own fellowship could be a little off.

With the first posts I read by him (before I had even heard of the Iglesia Ni Cristo), I just thought he was an especially zealous hyper-conservative from our ranks, until I noticed the heretical stuff.  When I saw the initial info on the InC, I wondered how they could arrive at such similar ideas (restoration of the true first century/New Testament church, emphasis on baptism, etc.)... until I read Manalo's background... he picked up some of his restorationist ideas from.........

...us[/color]

Offline s1n4m1n

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« Reply #268 on: July 18, 2005, 02:55:45 PM »
Quote
I'd hardly consider the CA2005 to be reaching out toward Catholicism, as Ken does, despite their quote. But I do see, among the more progressive side of the fellowship, much less hostility toward Catholics and a reaching out to embrace certain parts of Catholicism. For example, my church has Taize worship services occasionally on Sunday nights for anyone who wishes to attend. My understanding is that the Taize tradition is borrowed from Catholicism. Also, we do responsive readings and recitations (such as the Lord's Prayer -- every Sunday). Also, at ACU's Lectureship, I believe I remember seeing a class called "Embracing Your Inner Catholic"! (Interestingly, I think it was a youth ministry class.)

I don't know any of the writers of the CA2005, but I just find it curious who they quote and reference. They were chosen for a reason.

Ken[/color]

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« Reply #269 on: July 18, 2005, 02:59:40 PM »
DCR,

What I was taught was that the Word is the seed and wherever it is planted it would produce the same crop (excepting the different types of soil). So in a good soil the seed will always produce the good crop - simple New Testament Christians.