Author Topic: Ancestral Sin/ Original Sin  (Read 1790 times)

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Offline LightHammer

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Ancestral Sin/ Original Sin
« on: Mon Sep 12, 2011 - 18:20:17 »
I am having trouble understanding the contrasting definitions that separate the West and the East on matters of Adam's sin. I have read up on Original Sin as defined by the West but I can't find any solid sources to read up on in regards to Ancestral Sin.

I figured I'd start a discussion comparing and contrasting the two and acquire some good sources for Ancestral Sin along the way.

I have found that the East refutes any idea that Adam's sin transmits his guilt, however I am not sure what the Orthodox mean in detail when they say "guilt". As far as I could find, and insofar as I vaguely understand, the Orthodox stress that human death and concupiscence are the the effects that are transmitted with Adam's sin, the death of the spirit is a product of each individual's personal sins.

Like I said I couldn't find any good sources to read so I admit that I'm not entirely accurate in my understanding.

Appreciate any help and/or sources given.

Offline CDHealy

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Re: Ancestral Sin/ Original Sin
« Reply #1 on: Mon Sep 12, 2011 - 22:25:37 »
I am having trouble understanding the contrasting definitions that separate the West and the East on matters of Adam's sin. I have read up on Original Sin as defined by the West but I can't find any solid sources to read up on in regards to Ancestral Sin.


John Romanides' The Ancestral Sin is still in print and is considered by many to be a good resource.

A couple of excerpts from His Eminence, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware on the topic can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arbible/message/34424

I have found that the East refutes any idea that Adam's sin transmits his guilt, however I am not sure what the Orthodox mean in detail when they say "guilt".


We mean it in a very straightforward way: the moral responsibility/culpability for a sinful act.  Orthodox do not believe that Adam in any way transmitted to us the moral responsibility/culpability for his sinful act.

As far as I could find, and insofar as I vaguely understand, the Orthodox stress that human death and concupiscence are the the effects that are transmitted with Adam's sin, the death of the spirit is a product of each individual's personal sins.


Without getting into the weeds of anthropology here, the death that human nature inherits affects the entire person, not just this or that aspect of him.  Since only in God is the principle of life and nothing lives apart from God, God wills to keep our souls alive after physical death, either in a state of well-being ("heaven") or in a state of ill-being ("hell"), the choice of which destiny is ours.

The principle of mortality affects (and infects) all of who we are: our bodies so that our desires are distorted ("bent"), our wills so that we incline toward choosing that which is death-giving (i.e., sin), and our judgements (or deliberations) so that we do not adequately or accurately choose the good, even though the good is stamped on our conscience (i.e., we either deliberately choose evil, or, more likely, we choose that which only appears to us to be good, but we fail to discern that it is really evil).

Baptism resolves the issue of death and mortality, putting to death the principle of death in us such that we are no longer subject to its power.

We are, of course, responsible for the personal sins we commit, and baptism cleanses us of this moral guilt as well.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Ancestral Sin/ Original Sin
« Reply #2 on: Mon Sep 12, 2011 - 22:42:08 »
Quote
John Romanides' The Ancestral Sin is still in print and is considered by many to be a good resource.

A couple of excerpts from His Eminence, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware on the topic can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arbible/message/34424


Thanks CDHealy I'm going to see if I can be cheap and get Romanides' book from the library tomorrow and not pay for it.  ::smile::

I'm going to look over the excerpts tonight.

Quote
We mean it in a very straightforward way: the moral responsibility/culpability for a sinful act.  Orthodox do not believe that Adam in any way transmitted to us the moral responsibility/culpability for his sinful act.


Is this a conflicting view point from us in the West? I have not read where the West teaches that the offspring of Adam are equally guilty for the personal sins of Adam. I have only read an article online and a little bit of St. Augustine and the book Romans (specifically chapter five). No where among these sources did I find where the Magisterium endorses the idea that we as descendants of Adam are responsible for the sins Adam committed.

The West does however state that we are transmitted sin and by extension its effects i.e. death and suffering, concupiscence, privation from sanctifying grace, which is synonymous with sin itself.

 

Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Ancestral Sin/ Original Sin
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 12, 2011 - 23:49:11 »
I am having trouble understanding the contrasting definitions that separate the West and the East on matters of Adam's sin. I have read up on Original Sin as defined by the West but I can't find any solid sources to read up on in regards to Ancestral Sin.

I figured I'd start a discussion comparing and contrasting the two and acquire some good sources for Ancestral Sin along the way.

I have found that the East refutes any idea that Adam's sin transmits his guilt, however I am not sure what the Orthodox mean in detail when they say "guilt". As far as I could find, and insofar as I vaguely understand, the Orthodox stress that human death and concupiscence are the the effects that are transmitted with Adam's sin, the death of the spirit is a product of each individual's personal sins.

Like I said I couldn't find any good sources to read so I admit that I'm not entirely accurate in my understanding.

Appreciate any help and/or sources given.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We know that Adam and Eve did not physically die in the day they did eat.  Since God does not lie and He says that they will die, it could only have been a "spiritual" death.

Then we have Jesus telling us:  Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And...Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Hope that helps a bit.

Blessings Lighthammer  ::smile::

Offline Ohan

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Re: Ancestral Sin/ Original Sin
« Reply #4 on: Tue Feb 19, 2019 - 10:20:43 »
Armenian Orthodox ~ we don't keep with the idea of original sin ```


In any case Christ died for our sins ~ we are baptized and born anew ```



In Christ ```


Ohan
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 17, 2019 - 21:19:44 by Ohan »

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Re: Ancestral Sin/ Original Sin
« Reply #4 on: Tue Feb 19, 2019 - 10:20:43 »



 

     
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