Ask an Orthodox Christian

[trifecta]

Hello all.

I would like to answer your questions about Orthodox Christianity.


Jesus said “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” Matthew 16:18 KJV. 

The Orthodox Church is not just any church. It believes it is this church that the above scripture speaks of.   It has been around since the beginning and continues to keep the faith today. 

The Orthodox Church is neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant. The church in the early days became known as the Catholic Church and the faith was called the Orthodox Faith.  The Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches were united until 1054, when the issue of the Pope having universal authority over the church split the church.  Rome supporting universal papal authority, the Orthodox churches opposing it. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, I must say I am not yet a member the Orthodox Church but look forward to joining it.  I am now an inquirer,  more convinced by its claims each day.


By the way, I started the first "ask a" thread as a lowly blog on this site.  Now, I am ready to take it to the boards. 


I hope you will gain a better understanding of this ancient form of Christianity.

 
Respectfully submitted.

[ravenlorre]

How does the Orthodox Church view the Coptic Church?

blessings

[trifecta]

Ravenlorre,

I wonder how many people know what a Coptic is?   

A good question, without an easy answer.    The official answer is
Orthodox are not in communion with our Coptic brethren.
The reason for this is they backed out of the fourth ecumenical
council, when they refused to acknowledge Pope Leo's Tome.

Oddly, they had no problem with what was in the Tome, but
they viewed it as an unwarrented addition, so just 13 of
them left the Chalcedon and formed the Coptic Church.

There have been talks of reunification with the Orthodox
churches which are said to be close, but not yet.
I hope in my lifetime this will happen.  (I am also hoping
for a reunification with the Catholic Church, which is further
away).

In worship and tradition, the Copts are very similiar.  For
example, they use icons but not statues, as do the Orthodox.
The Copts are living evidence of the endurance of icons.
Even though they were not at the 7th ecumenical council,
which approved icons in worship, their tradition has long
included them in worship.

Thanks for the question.

[DCR]

Here's the Coptic perspective:

Under the authority of the Eastern Roman Empire of Constantinople (as opposed to the western empire of Rome), the Patriarchs and Popes of Alexandria played leading roles in Christian theology. They were invited everywhere to speak about the Christian faith. Saint Cyril, Pope of Alexandria, was the head of the Ecumenical Council which was held in Ephesus in the year 430 A.D. It was said that the bishops of the Church of Alexandria did nothing but spend all their time in meetings. This leading role, however, did not fare well when politics started to intermingle with Church affairs. It all started when the Emperor Marcianus interfered with matters of faith in the Church. The response of Saint Dioscorus, the Pope of Alexandria who was later exiled, to this interference was clear: "You have nothing to do with the Church." These political motives became even more apparent in Chalcedon in 451, when the Coptic Church was unfairly accused of following the teachings of Eutyches, who believed in monophysitism. This doctrine maintains that the Lord Jesus Christ has only one nature, the divine, not two natures, the human as well as the divine.

The Coptic Church has never believed in monophysitism the way it was portrayed in the Council of Chalcedon! In that Council, monophysitism meant believing in one nature. Copts believe that the Lord is perfect in His divinity, and He is perfect in His humanity, but His divinity and His humanity were united in one nature called "the nature of the incarnate word", which was reiterated by Saint Cyril of Alexandria. Copts, thus, believe in two natures "human" and "divine" that are united in one "without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration" (from the declaration of faith at the end of the Coptic divine liturgy). These two natures "did not separate for a moment or the twinkling of an eye" (also from the declaration of faith at the end of the Coptic divine liturgy).

The Coptic Church was misunderstood in the 5th century at the Council of Chalcedon. Perhaps the Council understood the Church correctly, but they wanted to exile the Church, to isolate it and to abolish the Egyptian, independent Pope, who maintained that Church and State should be separate. Despite all of this, the Coptic Church has remained very strict and steadfast in its faith. Whether it was a conspiracy from the Western Churches to exile the Coptic Church as a punishment for its refusal to be politically influenced, or whether Pope Dioscurus didn't quite go the extra mile to make the point that Copts are not monophysite, the Coptic Church has always felt a mandate to reconcile "semantic" differences between all Christian Churches. This is aptly expressed by the current 117th successor of Saint Mark, Pope Shenouda III: "To the Coptic Church, faith is more important than anything, and others must know that semantics and terminology are of little importance to us." Throughout this century, the Coptic Church has played an important role in the ecumenical movement. The Coptic Church is one of the founders of the World Council of Churches. It has remained a member of that council since 1948 A.D. The Coptic Church is a member of the all African Council of Churches (AACC) and the Middle East Council of Churches (MECC). The Church plays an important role in the Christian movement by conducting dialogues aiming at resolving the theological differences with the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, and Evangelical Churches.

[billinjackson]

How does the Orthodox Church view the Coptic Church?

blessings

In the same vein, what are your thoughts of the Ethiopian Church?

Also, it should be noted that the sad split or "Great schism" was also, to a lesser degree on the issue surrounding the Filioque and not just Papal authority. Although Authority is the issue still to this day, but I pray for unification with all my Eastern brethren.

In Christ

bill

[trifecta]

In the same vein, what are your thoughts of the Ethiopian Church?

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is a Coptic Church.  The Copts, too, sent missionaries to parts of the globe.  The origins of the Ethiopian Church, as far as I know, date back to the Coptic split in 451 over the Chaledonian Council.  Of course, the Copts along with today's Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches go back to the beginning, when Jesus established his church on earth (Matt 16:18). 

More specifically, the Copts and Ethiopian churches are part of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the original of which is the Copts.   There are even Oriential Churches in India.  See my and DCRs comments above about them.   I consider them brothers in Christ, and hope to share communion with them in my lifetime.

Also, it should be noted that the sad split or "Great schism" was also, to a lesser degree on the issue surrounding the Filioque and not just Papal authority. Although Authority is the issue still to this day, but I pray for unification with all my Eastern brethren.

It's kind of like saying that the massacre at Lexington and Concord started the Revolutionary War (or the War for Independence, if you are British).  The Filioque is the trigger that caused the split, but the issue behind it was the RCCs claim to universal authority.

Are you Catholic?  I am praying for unification for the eastern and western Churches as well. 

And welcome to the forum!

[DCR]

Interesting thread here.  I find the issue between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches to be of interest.  I noticed that CDHealy has returned.  Perhaps, he has other things to add.

[CDHealy]

I'm happy to add any insights that I can.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Which Orthodox church are you from, CD?

[CDHealy]

I'm a member of the self-ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, whose Patriarch, Ignatios IV, resides in Damascus, Syria.  The patriarchal synod only  makes decisions (ratifies) our bishops-elect.  All temporal matters related to the archdiocese are handled here in the U.S. under our Metropolitan, Phillip.  Our own bishop is His Grace, Mark.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Thanks.

What sacraments does the Orthodox church embrace?  What are the differences between your sacraments and the RCC's (if any)?

[trifecta]

Good question, Jarrod and thanks to you and DCR for reviving this thread and welcome back CD.

Having grown up Catholic and am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy, I can answer your question, but I must admit I get the terms they use mixed up.

The short answer is yes, they are the same seven sacraments, but the names are slightly different (this is where I get mixed up-especially since the Catholics changed the names when I was growing up.)  In order of occurence: 1) Baptism (usually done in both churches as infants) 2)  Communion (first done at about age 7 in RCC; after chrismation  in O church)  3) Confirmation/chrismation - the receiving of the Holy Spirit - done at about age 12 in the RCC church/ done after baptism in O church - Converts are received by chrismation in O church  4) Penance/reconcilation, that is, confessing sins to a priest  5) holy orders, that is, priest/monk/nun  6) marriage - Orthodox can do both 5 and 6, RCC can't 7)annointing of the sick/holy unction - blessing the sick.

These 7 sacraments are more important in the RCC than the O church and the O church, I think, adopted them because of Western influence (a rare time in O history that this occurred).  To me and many O Christians, there are other sacraments as well including reading Scripture, prayer, almsgiving.  In fact, many Os say that all of life is sacramental.
I would define sacraments as things we do to serve God, which is perhaps why Protestants have such a problem with them.  Luther agreed to only two -- baptism and communion (that is real presence communion) since they are the only two mentioned in the Bible, although I thought marriage was too .

By the way, the O church that I plan to join is the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), a spinoff of the Russian Orthodox Church, but it received independence from Russia during communism.   When I am received into the OCA, I can also receive communion from CD's church.  Most Orthodox churches are in communion with each other.

Hope this helps.

[CDHealy]

Trifecta:

I think I would correct the following:

These 7 sacraments are more important in the RCC than the O church and the O church, I think, adopted them because of Western influence (a rare time in O history that this occurred).  To me and many O Christians, there are other sacraments as well including reading Scripture, prayer, almsgiving.  In fact, many Os say that all of life is sacramental.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church share a common heritage and life prior to about the twelfth century A.D.  Thus, both Rome and Orthodoxy have a common tradition in terms of the Sacraments, though, since the twelfth century A.D., due to the schism of Rome from the five Eastern Patriarchates, there have been some developments.

One of the relatively minor differences is that Rome does, in fact, enumerate seven sacraments, whereas the Orthodox are not quite so formal in their enumeration.  Trifecta is correct, however, in that Orthodox see all of Christian life as sacramental.

Another smaller difference is that traditionally Orthodoxy refer to the sacraments not as sacraments (which refers to oaths and legal contexts) but as mysteries (which refers to the revelation of God in his acts and words).

Both Churches place a very large importance on being in a proper spiritual state to receive the grace of the sacraments, primarily through repentance and confession.  And Both Churches see the primary sacrament being the Eucharist, Lord's Supper.

Although the terminology and understanding is a little different, both Churches do believe that the elements of bread and wine do become metaphysically and spiritual the Body and Blood of Jesus.

One big difference between Rome and Orthodoxy, however, is their respective views on the grace that is experienced in the sacraments.  Rome views this grace as created, and something other than God.  Orthodoxy views this grace as uncreated, and part of the energies of God, not God in essence, but God in activity.  Thus, when Orthodox participate in the sacraments, they believe they are actually participating in God and taking in his divine life.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Thanks guys.

This kind of heads in the direction I was angling towards:

Both Churches place a very large importance on being in a proper spiritual state to receive the grace of the sacraments, primarily through repentance and confession.  And Both Churches see the primary sacrament being the Eucharist, Lord's Supper.

One big difference between Rome and Orthodoxy, however, is their respective views on the grace that is experienced in the sacraments.  Rome views this grace as created, and something other than God.  Orthodoxy views this grace as uncreated, and part of the energies of God, not God in essence, but God in activity.  Thus, when Orthodox participate in the sacraments, they believe they are actually participating in God and taking in his divine life.

My understanding of the RCC's belief is that "grace" that comes from the sacraments works towards, or causes purification of the believer.  Further, that complete, perfect purification of believers is necessary for salvation.  And that mortal sin kills that inner grace, though venial sins do not.  Ipso facto, salvation is through the sacramental system.

What about the Orthodox church?

It seems there is a difference in what you believe this grace to be/do.  Can you elaborate?  How would you describe the effects of the grace that comes from the sacraments/mysteries?

Is perfect purification necessary for eternal life?  Does the O'Church believe in a purgatory? in purgation?

Does the O'Church make a differentiation between mortal and venial sins?

Jarrod
 

[pfpt]

Hello trifecta! Being a greek orthodox myself i want to ask you a question. Having surfed this forum i talked with/took advice from catholic christians. is that wrong?isn`t orthodoxy the same as catholicism?
i hope i haven`t commited a sin or anything...