Ask an Orthodox Christian

[trifecta]

Hello pfpt!  Nice to meet you. 

Hello trifecta! Being a greek orthodox myself i want to ask you a question. Having surfed this forum i talked with/took advice from catholic christians. is that wrong?

I grew up Roman Catholic, so I can speak from experience.  However, one thing you will always have over me is growing up in the faith.  Sometimes we need to explore other people's beliefs not only to understand theirs but to appreciate our own beliefs.  Hopefully, you are doing this now. 

To answer your question, I don't think it is a sin to take good advice from anyone, if indeed, the advice is good.   Catholics have their own experience and we share much in common with them.   You should, however, consult your spiritual father about any advice that you are not sure about.   One of the great plusses of the Orthodox world is that you do have a spiritual father and you are not let on your own to figure things out.

isn`t orthodoxy the same as catholicism?
i hope i haven`t commited a sin or anything...

No, Orthodoxy is not the same as Catholicism.  Indeed, we have things in common, as we do will all Christians, but the churches are not in communion with each other.  You are not allowed, for example, to take communion in a Catholic Church.  The obvious difference is allegiance to the Pope.  We don't agree that he is the ultimate earthly spiritual leader.   Now, I agree with some of the things that Pope Benedict says, but we are not under his authority.  The Pope recently said the Orthodox Churches are not in communion with Rome because we do not submit ourselves to the authority of him.

There are many other differences as well, but they may not seem obvious on the surface.  I think, however, if you attended a Catholic Mass you would notice differences.  I believe, as does the Orthodox, that many Catholics and Protestants are indeed saved, but the church is the "pillar and foundation of the church."  (I Timothy 3:15).  As there is one Christ, there can be only one true church.

Another area that is different between Catholics and Orthodox is how we look at God.  The Western viewpoint, which Protestants also believe, is different than the Orthodox view.  This goes back a long way.  The reason, I think, for the difference is simply that the Orthodox knew Greek, the language of the New Testament, while the west read the Bible in Latin. 

I don't think it is a sin to take advice from Catholic believers or Protestant believers, but verify what they say with your spiritual father.

Thanks for reading.

[trifecta]

Hello again my friend.

Both Churches place a very large importance on being in a proper spiritual state to receive the grace of the sacraments, primarily through repentance and confession.  And Both Churches see the primary sacrament being the Eucharist, Lord's Supper.

One big difference between Rome and Orthodoxy, however, is their respective views on the grace that is experienced in the sacraments.  Rome views this grace as created, and something other than God.  Orthodoxy views this grace as uncreated, and part of the energies of God, not God in essence, but God in activity.  Thus, when Orthodox participate in the sacraments, they believe they are actually participating in God and taking in his divine life.

CD is correct, as usual.  The above statement had me thinking.

My understanding of the RCC's belief is that "grace" that comes from the sacraments works towards, or causes purification of the believer.  Further, that complete, perfect purification of believers is necessary for salvation.  And that mortal sin kills that inner grace, though venial sins do not.  Ipso facto, salvation is through the sacramental system.

What about the Orthodox church?

The way you describe the RCC view of salvation is more or less true, as I understand it.  However, I know that good works are necessary to show the faith you have, and even though they are not sacraments per se, they are necessary for salvation.

As for the Orthodox, salvation is through a cooperation of us and God. Take this verse:
"work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Phillipians 2:12b-13).  It is our responsibility to cooperate with God.  Note this is done by us alone.  Such a view (Pelagianism) was rejected in one of the ecumenical councils.

Sacraments are the things that we do that God wants us to do.  Ephesians 2:10
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."  This is why we say that all life is sacramental, everything that we do should bring glory to God. 

Is perfect purification necessary for eternal life?

No, no one (except Christ) is perfect.  However, we are to strife for perfection, or as Christ said "Be perfect."  Let me say here that the Orthodox Church is not into salvation formulas.  Eternal judgment is God's, not ours. 

  Does the O'Church believe in a purgatory? in purgation?

No, the O Church does not believe in purgatory and it therefore never did indulgences.
An attempt at Catholic/Orthodox unification in the 15th century was thwarted over this issue. 

Does the O'Church make a differentiation between mortal and venial sins?

The O church does not use those terms, and there is no equivalent terms in
Orthodoxy.  But, to answer your question, I don't think so, but I'm not sure   
Will have to get back to you on that one (or maybe CD will chime in).
 

[CDHealy]

My understanding of the RCC's belief is that "grace" that comes from the sacraments works towards, or causes purification of the believer.  Further, that complete, perfect purification of believers is necessary for salvation.  And that mortal sin kills that inner grace, though venial sins do not.  Ipso facto, salvation is through the sacramental system.

What about the Orthodox church?

The foundational text for the Lord's Supper is in John 6:53-57: "Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me."

Note that the Orthodox Church (as did the entire Church from the time of the New Testament), did not attempt to explain these words away, but took them on their face.  We truly believe that by consuming the consecrated elements, we are consuming the Lord's most precious Body and all-holy Blood, and that by so consuming, we are partaking of the divine and immortal life of Jesus the Son of God.

St. Paul believed this: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10.16).  The earliest Christians after the Apostles believed this too: St. Ignatios of Antioch, writing about A.D. 107 says of the Lord's Supper that it is "the medicine of immortality, and the antidote which prevents us from dying, but a cleansing remedy driving away evil, [which causes] that we should live in God through Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 20.2). 

Indeed, the earliest Christian understanding of salvation was not that salvation was about what God declared regarding us (though there is that), but, rather, salvation was our union in the divine life: St. Peter, writing in his second epistle says, "His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (1.3-4). 

This participation in the divine life is through the union for which Jesus prayed in John 17, "“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me" (vv 20-23).

So for Orthodox, the emphasis on partaking of the Sacraments is not about some notion of moral perfection or legal remedy, but, rather, the reality of the healing of our natures and the union with and participation in the divine life, by our union with Jesus, that cleanses us of all sin and restores the image of God in us, and by which we perfect (in time, through struggle), the likeness of God in us.

It seems there is a difference in what you believe this grace to be/do.  Can you elaborate?  How would you describe the effects of the grace that comes from the sacraments/mysteries?

Think of St. Ignatios' metaphor: medicine of immortality.  The participation is a participation in the very life of God which heals the death in us, cleanses us of sin, and brings us into union with God so that we share his very life and energies (St. Peter's "nature"--there's some technical verbiage here that I'm glossing over for the sake of simplicity).

Is perfect purification necessary for eternal life?  Does the O'Church believe in a purgatory? in purgation?

It depends on what you mean by "perfect."  Jesus calls us to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect, but it is not a legal or moral perfection, but a progressive progression of healing and struggle in the virtues.

The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory, but it does believe in purgation.  That's just another word for repentance.

Does the O'Church make a differentiation between mortal and venial sins?

Not formally, no.  But just as St. John in his epistle distinguishes between some sins and other sins that lead to death, so, too, the Orthodox Church recognizes that some sins are more serious and of deeper significance, spiritually, than others.  Some sins will prohibit you from receiving Holy Communion unless they are sacramentally absolved, others will not keep you from receiving Holy Communion but should nonetheless be brought to sacramental absolution.  Of course it should go without saying that Orthodox are encouraged to practice continual self-examination and to repent immediately of any conscience-troubling matters, bringing them to their spiritual fathers and/or confesors as soon as they can to be given counsel and guidance.

[ConsideringCatholicism]

I am considering joining the RCIA group at my local parish - I was raised Protestant, but I am confused about the basic differences between the Orthodox tradition and the Roman Catholic tradition.

[James Rondon]

When one is joined to the Lord, He adds them to His church (cf. Acts 2:47).

[ConsideringCatholicism]

When one is joined to the Lord, He adds them to His church (cf. Acts 2:47).

huh?

[CDHealy]

I am considering joining the RCIA group at my local parish - I was raised Protestant, but I am confused about the basic differences between the Orthodox tradition and the Roman Catholic tradition.

Some primary and significant differences:
1. The filioque, the clause that was inserted into the Nicene Creed by the local synod in Toledo, Spain, and was later promulgated by the Western emperor and the Pope in the ninth century.  This clause means "and the Son," indicating that the Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as from the Father.  Unfortunately, this makes the Holy Spirit something different from the Father and the Son, among other problems.  See St Photios' Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, written by Photios the Great, Archbishop of Constantinople.
2. The universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome.  Episcopal collegiality was the norm throughout the history of the Church, until, beginning in the ninth century, the Bishop of Rome began to assert jurisdictional authority over the rest of Christendom.  The Orthodox do not have a Pope, but have coequal bishops who work collegially.
3. Purgatory.  The Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory, primarily because they have a different view of salvation.
4. Grace.  The Catholic Church, due in part to its espousal of the filioque, believes in created grace.  The Orthodox Church believes that grace is God himself, in his energies.
5. Married priesthood.  Orthodox priests and other clergy except bishops and monastics (of course), may be married when they are ordained.

[CDHealy]

When one is joined to the Lord, He adds them to His church (cf. Acts 2:47).

huh?

James is pulling out a favorite of many of the members of this board.  He, and they, thinks it debunks the claims of Rome and Orthodoxy regarding the nature of the one true Church.  Unfortunately, it only makes even more problems for them.  To wit:

1. They are not able to adequately clarify what they mean by church, and which groups constitute the church.
2. They usually resort to an invisible, spiritual church, but this is not the Church of the New Testament--and such a view results ultimately in a denial of the Incarnation of Christ.

[charlie]

I go to a congregation of Church of Christ which I really love. One of the things I like about it is the fact that we have the ability and local authority to adjust the order, structure, and peripheral activities of the local worship setting, as long as they remain within scriptural acceptibility.

One concern I have with worshipping as an Orthodox is the children. What kind of childcare for youngsters and constructive and helpful instruction for the older children and youths are commonly employed in O Churches? I am basing this question on the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that we Protestants tend to make sure that there is something like that for the kids whereas Catholics and Orthodox don't have so much.

[CDHealy]

Unlike most Protestant worship, Orthodox worship involves all five senses: touch (kissing icons, making the sign of the cross), hearing (the reading of Scripture, the sermon, the Scripture that make up 90%+ of the Liturgy itself, the chanting), sight (icons, vestments, gold crosses and chalices), smell (incense), taste (Holy Communion, the anitdoron).  This makes an ideal setting for children who are very sense-oriented.  There's no need for a separate service for children, since they can take part in the worship from the beginning of their lives.  My daughters, 4 and 2, pretend to sing along when we are chanting (sometimes they know the words).  They make the sign of the cross, light candles, bow and prostrate, stand and sit.  It is a very active service, and they ask questions throughout which I answer.

In Sunday School (which follows our Liturgy), they get more instruction and training in the particulars of the Faith at their level of engagement and understanding.  And, especially since we are a convert parish, there is a lot of instruction at home.  (Most ethnic Orthodox homes perhaps don't need quite so much overt instruction since it's a part of their way of life, most times.)

[charlie]

So what do you do while they are at Sunday School?

[ConsideringCatholicism]

Thanks CD, you answer is helpful.  No offense to Orthodoxy (I respect their disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church), but in response to the Protestants who claim that we are somehow a divided Body of Christ - boy, that sure is ironic.  It is like the shattered pot calling the pot with a knick on it, divided.

As far as I know, depite our differences, Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic Church both retain Holy Orders and therefore, an Apostolic foundation. 

I believe that God's grace is the same as his love - since you really can't produce love maybe I am more in agreement with the Orthodox teaching on grace.

The Pope seems to be a non-issue to me; according to the early church, Peter and Paul seemed to be equally respected - I can understand the RCC wanting a tie to Peter, and I don't think their is really anything wrong with that, but am not sure it is as much of an airtight teaching as they would like it to be.  My only concern would be that without one Bishop in charge, arguing amongst the shared leadership in the church might be a real problem - does that happen CD?

I just did some research on my own on the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father (as it was written in the original Nicean Creed), rather than from the Father and the Son as it is found in the RCC and Protestant Churches today.  I have to say that I totally agree with the RCC on this point.  Yes, it was changed, but in the view of the dotrine of the Trinity, I see the change as a move toward accuracy, rather than sticking to tradition for tradition's sake.  I also agree that the original form of the NC seems to suggest an artificial hierarchy within the Trinity.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion CD, I have a lot to think about.  I know that I will join either the RCC or an Orthodox Church - I can no longer stay in Protestantism.

CC

[CDHealy]

So what do you do while they are at Sunday School?

We go to the adult (everyone post-high school and up) Sunday School, or watch our children in the nursery.

[CDHealy]

My only concern would be that without one Bishop in charge, arguing amongst the shared leadership in the church might be a real problem - does that happen CD?

No more so than  happened in Acts 15.  Consensus is the goal, not absolute uniformity.  Just look at the Ecumenical Councils.

I just did some research on my own on the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father (as it was written in the original Nicean Creed), rather than from the Father and the Son as it is found in the RCC and Protestant Churches today.  I have to say that I totally agree with the RCC on this point.  Yes, it was changed, but in the view of the dotrine of the Trinity, I see the change as a move toward accuracy, rather than sticking to tradition for tradition's sake.  I also agree that the original form of the NC seems to suggest an artificial hierarchy within the Trinity.

In fact, it is not more accurate, but results in a distoration of the Trinity--as I pointed out above, it makes the Holy Spirit something other than the Father and the Son--the primary distortion of which is absolute (or definitional) divine simplicity, or, ironically, rather than saving the doctrine of the Trinity, it destroys it.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion CD, I have a lot to think about.  I know that I will join either the RCC or an Orthodox Church - I can no longer stay in Protestantism.

The Lord bless your journey.  And boy do I know how you feel!

[ConsideringCatholicism]

In fact, it is not more accurate, but results in a distoration of the Trinity--as I pointed out above, it makes the Holy Spirit something other than the Father and the Son--the primary distortion of which is absolute (or definitional) divine simplicity, or, ironically, rather than saving the doctrine of the Trinity, it destroys it.

That is an interesting take on it.......can you tell me a bit more?

And thanks for understanding my position:)