Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.  (Read 5154 times)

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Lively Stone

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #70 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 08:54:51 »
This is incorrect:

"Yes, the local churches are organized assemblies of believers with structure as outlined in scripture. However, there is NO earthly church authority. We submit to Jesus Christ and His Spirit's leading."

and illustrates a considerable naivete, which is rather common.

I am correct. There is no central earthly Church authority apart from Jesus Christ our head. If you think there is, then I suggest you deliver the scripture that names it.
You said there was no earthly church authority. That is incorrect.

LOL! So...adding that there is no CENTRAL earthly authority clarifies it for you?  Naivete, indeed! ::doh::

HRoberson

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #71 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 10:12:58 »
This is incorrect:

"Yes, the local churches are organized assemblies of believers with structure as outlined in scripture. However, there is NO earthly church authority. We submit to Jesus Christ and His Spirit's leading."

and illustrates a considerable naivete, which is rather common.

I am correct. There is no central earthly Church authority apart from Jesus Christ our head. If you think there is, then I suggest you deliver the scripture that names it.
You said there was no earthly church authority. That is incorrect.

LOL! So...adding that there is no CENTRAL earthly authority clarifies it for you?  Naivete, indeed! ::doh::
The two mean completely different things. There is earthly authority for the church. Your poor interaction with Thad arises quite naturally from both your inability to understand what he is saying,.and your apparent penchant to type before thinking, resulting in imprecise and inaccurate statements. If you could muster the willingness and ability to actually engage your interlocutors rather than resorting to largely off the mark jousting with them, you might actually learn something about the incredibly rich spiritual history of the people of God through the centuries. It hasn't all been Western European Evangelicalism.

Lively Stone

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #72 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 10:28:02 »
This is incorrect:

"Yes, the local churches are organized assemblies of believers with structure as outlined in scripture. However, there is NO earthly church authority. We submit to Jesus Christ and His Spirit's leading."

and illustrates a considerable naivete, which is rather common.

I am correct. There is no central earthly Church authority apart from Jesus Christ our head. If you think there is, then I suggest you deliver the scripture that names it.
You said there was no earthly church authority. That is incorrect.

LOL! So...adding that there is no CENTRAL earthly authority clarifies it for you?  Naivete, indeed! ::doh::
The two mean completely different things. There is earthly authority for the church. Your poor interaction with Thad arises quite naturally from both your inability to understand what he is saying,.and your apparent penchant to type before thinking, resulting in imprecise and inaccurate statements. If you could muster the willingness and ability to actually engage your interlocutors rather than resorting to largely off the mark jousting with them, you might actually learn something about the incredibly rich spiritual history of the people of God through the centuries. It hasn't all been Western European Evangelicalism.

Hahaha! I said what I mean---there is no Church organizational head office in the world! Thad thinks the EO is the Church authority in the world. RCC's think theirs is. Mormons and JW's think theirs is, also.

The only authority the Church of Jesus Christ in the world has is Jesus. He appoints local authorities for local assemblies. Do you get it, now?

Now you can learn that you need not type before thinking. As far as rich spiritual history---I have all the richness of spiritual history in the bible, thanks---plus I don't have to wade through error to get at the truth.

« Last Edit: Tue May 14, 2013 - 19:17:40 by Lively Stone »

HRoberson

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #73 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 18:03:47 »
I thought it was probably a waste of time.

Offline trifecta

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #74 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 18:56:10 »
Good try HR!



Hahaha! I said what I mean---there is no Church organizational head office in the world! Thad thinks the EO is the Church authority in the world. RCC's think theirs is. Mormons and JW's think theirs is, also.


If God is not the author of confusion, why wouldn't there be a single church?  Why did Jesus not say read the Bible and believe, instead of promising to build a church and have apostles to lead it?

As for multiple churches making the same claim,  we can say the same about religion. There are thousands of faiths, what audacity to claim there is only one true religion!

Quote

The only authority the Church of Jesus Christ in the world has is Jesus.


So, why bother with a church or apostles to lead them?  Why submit to any authority?

Quote

 He appoints local authorities for local assemblies. Do you get it, now?


So, Jesus thought to lead local assemblies and his power stops there?  A bishop is an overseer.  Why would you assume he oversees a local congregation only? 

Quote

Now you can learn that you need not type before thinking. As far as rich spiritual history---I have all the richness of spiritual history in the bible, thanks---pus I don't have to wade through error to get at the truth.


It is very helpful to study church history, just as we study our own history.  Do we look toward others to understand the Bible.  Of course, we do.  So why not look at church history to gain a greater understanding of how the church (an instrument of God)  works through history?  It ultimately is very edifying.

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #74 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 18:56:10 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #75 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 18:58:36 »
I'm not Orthodox (big O), so I could be wrong, but the last I checked, the Orthodox don't have a single figurehead like the pope, or a designated capital like the Vatican, or anything analogous to the Magisterium.

They are just ruled by their bishops and archbishops, aren't they?  trifecta?

Offline trifecta

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #76 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 19:02:34 »
Yes, Jarrod, we don't have a single leader like the Pope (Bishop of Rome).

While we treat our leaders with a fair amount of pomp, decisions in the O Church are
done conciliarly.

To use a modern term, we have checks and balances!

Lively Stone

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #77 on: Tue May 14, 2013 - 19:21:25 »
Good try HR!



Hahaha! I said what I mean---there is no Church organizational head office in the world! Thad thinks the EO is the Church authority in the world. RCC's think theirs is. Mormons and JW's think theirs is, also.


If God is not the author of confusion, why wouldn't there be a single church?

There is! All believers in Jesus Christ are the Church, His Body, the Bride.

Quote
Why did Jesus not say read the Bible and believe, instead of promising to build a church and have apostles to lead it?

Jesus established the Church through the apostles and it continues with Holy Spirit equipping everyone to serve each other in various capacities.

Quote
As for multiple churches making the same claim,  we can say the same about religion. There are thousands of faiths, what audacity to claim there is only one true religion!

Yes there are lots of religions. Only Jesus is head of the one true faith---Christianity is not a religion. If you think there are religions that lead to God, then you are walking in delusion.

Quote
Quote
The only authority the Church of Jesus Christ in the world has is Jesus.


So, why bother with a church or apostles to lead them?  Why submit to any authority?


Why wouldn't He? We submit to Christ, and to those He places in leadership over us, by virtue of the gifting of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
Quote
He appoints local authorities for local assemblies. Do you get it, now?


So, Jesus thought to lead local assemblies and his power stops there?  A bishop is an overseer.  Why would you assume he oversees a local congregation only? 

Who says His power stops anywhere? God appoints apostles and overseers to establish new churches and to oversee congregations. The work of the Church goes on until Jesus comes gain.

Quote
Quote
Now you can learn that you need not type before thinking. As far as rich spiritual history---I have all the richness of spiritual history in the bible, thanks---plus I don't have to wade through error to get at the truth.


It is very helpful to study church history, just as we study our own history.  Do we look toward others to understand the Bible.  Of course, we do.  So why not look at church history to gain a greater understanding of how the church (an instrument of God)  works through history?  It ultimately is very edifying.

Any history can be helpful, but it isn't necessary, as the bible contains all the history we will ever need. We look to each other to learn the scriptures, as the Lord gifts people with wisdom, and teaching abilities, as well as knowledge and understanding---some more than others. Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher and He is the one who guides us into all truth.

We are the Church. We are His instruments who do His will in the world today.
« Last Edit: Tue May 14, 2013 - 19:28:36 by Lively Stone »

Offline trifecta

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #78 on: Sat Oct 12, 2013 - 21:01:30 »
Lively Stone,

I know this is really late response but here it goes.

You keep on saying the church is a body of people, which of course, it is.  But it is more than that:
It is the depository of truth (1 Tim 3:15), has authority (in bishops and apostles), and makes judgment (Matt 18:17).
It even witnesses to the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).  Finally, as I said before, it is a gathering of people,
not a list of names.



Any history can be helpful, but it isn't necessary, as the bible contains all the history we will ever need.


History gives us context to understand.  But it is more than that.  It is how God works.

Quote
We look to each other to learn the scriptures, as the Lord gifts people with wisdom, and teaching abilities, as well as knowledge and understanding---some more than others. Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher and He is the one who guides us into all truth.


Actually, you don't.  You --like all of us-- depend on someone to give the scriptures some context.   You have Luther, Calvin
etc.   We have John Chrystostom, Basil the Great, Gregory of Naziansus, among many others.  The church has figured this all out and passed the wisdom throughout the ages.  You have Bill Bright, phrases like "born again" and "personal relationship."  That may speak to today, but it is not they spoke historically.  (Whether the meaning of these phrases is historical is a debatable matter).

You say that we, regardless of our size and history, are not really Christians, based on some phrases which are not in the Bible.

Furthermore, while some might have saved by reading the Bible and depending on the Holy Spirit to interpret (as you say above), this is also how heresies (and denominations) develop.  We have the history of the Church, which has figured all this
out so we don't repeat the same mistakes.

Finally, you say "the Bible is all you need," but it's not.  It's just a cliche. You won't, for example, find the word Trinity or direct references to the Holy Spirit as God, yet you believe them.  Beyond that, you have your Protestant fathers who give you
a context to read the Bible. 
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 13, 2013 - 06:35:11 by trifecta »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #79 on: Sat Oct 12, 2013 - 21:16:00 »
Dunno whether she will read it or not as she is no longer a participating member of this forum.


Offline CDHealy

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #80 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 00:32:44 »
Wow!  I've been gone awhile, but in a moment of idle curiosity checked back in. Boy, have the ways the different religious forums are being used a huge change from back when I stopped in here more often a couple of years ago.  I had thought these forums were more for intra-Orthodox communications, and others could stop in and ask questions.  It looks like non-Orthodox can jump in and offer up an inflammatory opening post.

Trifecta has offered a few clarifications, in his usual irenic spirit.  (I might not have put up with a lot of the awful false nonsense being promulgated.  But then last time I was a bit more combative like that, I knew I needed to stop visiting as often.)

For what it's worth, I'm Orthodox.  I was once a member of the Christian churches/churches of Christ (what used to be called the Restoration Movement).  I was born and raised among those churches, educated at one of their Bible colleges, and served as a youth minister, campus minister and local church minister.  Later I began searching for the New Testament Church in earnest--which was fired by the Restoration Plea with which I'd grown up.  Long story short: in May 2007, after five years of study and worship, I was received into the Orthodox Church and have been Orthodox since then.  My first twelve years of becoming Orthodox (and once I was Orthodox) was among Churches whose history goes back to the Antioch of Acts 11.  I am currently a member of an Orthodox parish with roots in Russia.

I am fairly well able to address the questions and inquiries someone might have about the Orthodox Church.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Red Baker really had any desire to dialogue with Orthodox in their own forum, but had it in mind to attack a straw man of the Orthodox faith (many of the things he accuses Orthodox of believing are just flat false).  Too bad.

Offline Volkmar

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Re: Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.
« Reply #81 on: Tue Dec 24, 2013 - 21:24:12 »
Wow!  I've been gone awhile, but in a moment of idle curiosity checked back in. Boy, have the ways the different religious forums are being used a huge change from back when I stopped in here more often a couple of years ago.  I had thought these forums were more for intra-Orthodox communications, and others could stop in and ask questions.  It looks like non-Orthodox can jump in and offer up an inflammatory opening post.

Trifecta has offered a few clarifications, in his usual irenic spirit.  (I might not have put up with a lot of the awful false nonsense being promulgated.  But then last time I was a bit more combative like that, I knew I needed to stop visiting as often.)

For what it's worth, I'm Orthodox.  I was once a member of the Christian churches/churches of Christ (what used to be called the Restoration Movement).  I was born and raised among those churches, educated at one of their Bible colleges, and served as a youth minister, campus minister and local church minister.  Later I began searching for the New Testament Church in earnest--which was fired by the Restoration Plea with which I'd grown up.  Long story short: in May 2007, after five years of study and worship, I was received into the Orthodox Church and have been Orthodox since then.  My first twelve years of becoming Orthodox (and once I was Orthodox) was among Churches whose history goes back to the Antioch of Acts 11.  I am currently a member of an Orthodox parish with roots in Russia.

I am fairly well able to address the questions and inquiries someone might have about the Orthodox Church.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Red Baker really had any desire to dialogue with Orthodox in their own forum, but had it in mind to attack a straw man of the Orthodox faith (many of the things he accuses Orthodox of believing are just flat false).  Too bad.


CD, Good to see you.

I want you to know that our (distant) past discussions and interactions have been personally beneficial. 

With the exception of a few individuals this forum has degenerated into an American Fundigelical Religionist free-for-all devoid of humility and lacking spiritual direction.  Quite the waste of time.

Blessings to you and your family at the beginning of this Holy season.

V