Author Topic: How do we know we "know" we are saved??  (Read 12021 times)

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Offline pointmade

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #35 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 18:46:46 »
Interesting debate!

I note in Matthew 25:31-46 during Jesus' Olivet discourse with Peter, James, John and Andrew (Mk. 13:3) about how the Son of man (King) would separate the nations at judgment into sheep and goats.

Interesting that neither had any idea of why they had been selected on the right hand to inherit the kingdom, or cursed into everlasting fire for those seated on the left hand. ("righteous" and" unrighteous").

Note verse 38 where the righteous sheep said, "when did we see you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you, Or when did we see you sick, or in prison and came to you? Looks to me like the "saved" were oblivious to their salvation.

The goats, or unrighteous, were just as curious to when they had seen him hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison and did not minister unto him (v. 44).
Is this Calvin's theory of "unconditional election" and "Preservation of the saints"?

If the Bible was not clear on works, (Eph. 2:8-9) one would suspect that this text teaches salvation by benevolence, or works.
Again, the sheep did not know they were "saved" until told by the King to head to happy valley.

Are their goats among the forum members who have not been benevolent to the King and headed into everlasting fire? And, how about the "promise" of Acts 2:39, verbalized by the inspired apostle to the lost sheep of Israel?

Offline fish153

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 19:01:59 »
For the love of God fish, stop posting the same erroneous translation of Hebrews 7:25. You seem like a nice guy, do you have to distort Hebrews 7:25 to make your point?? Here we go again

What does Hebrews 7:25 say in Greek?

25 ὅθεν καὶ σῴζειν εἰς τὸ παντελὲς δύναται τοὺς προσερχομένους δι' αὐτοῦ τῷ θεῷ, πάντοτε ζῶν εἰς τὸ ἐντυγχάνειν ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν. παντελὲς = completely, as NIV states "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

As I'm a Greek native speaker I can assure you that παντελὲς = completely, sorry. Also, you skipped the "able" part. Your quote talks about Jesus' ability (is able = δύναται ) to save completely (=παντελὲς )

Also, let's see where Jesus Himself says how someone can gain and then lose his teaching (Matthew 13:18-21)

"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

That's human nature fish. That's Jesus' teaching..some people "fall away" despite having received His word "with joy"

Fish, if the only way to prove your point is to distort the Bible.....learn some Greek man ::smile::

Avril----

Actually, you are distorting the Greek.  Listen, my friend, no matter how YOU try to bend it,  it says Jesus "ever lives to intercede for them"---that is how he is able to save them completely.  Who can remove Jesus from his throne? Can you?  Can you stop Jesus from praying for someone he desires to completely and totally save?  Can the person themselves stop Jesus from praying for them?  Could Peter?  Could Peter run into perdition when he denied Christ three times in front of others?  He had free will Avril----what turned Peter back?  Himself?  Give me a break----Jesus said "I have prayed for you that your faith fail not".  That is why Peter turned back.

If you WANT to twist Hebrews 7:25 so that it has LESS POWER and significance than it definitely shows, be my guest. I don't understand why you would want to do that.  To each his own I guess.

Offline AvrilNYC

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #37 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 19:17:11 »
For the love of God fish, stop posting the same erroneous translation of Hebrews 7:25. You seem like a nice guy, do you have to distort Hebrews 7:25 to make your point?? Here we go again

What does Hebrews 7:25 say in Greek?

25 ὅθεν καὶ σῴζειν εἰς τὸ παντελὲς δύναται τοὺς προσερχομένους δι' αὐτοῦ τῷ θεῷ, πάντοτε ζῶν εἰς τὸ ἐντυγχάνειν ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν. παντελὲς = completely, as NIV states "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

As I'm a Greek native speaker I can assure you that παντελὲς = completely, sorry. Also, you skipped the "able" part. Your quote talks about Jesus' ability (is able = δύναται ) to save completely (=παντελὲς )

Also, let's see where Jesus Himself says how someone can gain and then lose his teaching (Matthew 13:18-21)

"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

That's human nature fish. That's Jesus' teaching..some people "fall away" despite having received His word "with joy"

Fish, if the only way to prove your point is to distort the Bible.....learn some Greek man ::smile::

Avril----

Actually, you are distorting the Greek.  Listen, my friend, no matter how YOU try to bend it,  it says Jesus "ever lives to intercede for them"---that is how he is able to save them completely.  Who can remove Jesus from his throne? Can you?  Can you stop Jesus from praying for someone he desires to completely and totally save?  Can the person themselves stop Jesus from praying for them?  Could Peter?  Could Peter run into perdition when he denied Christ three times in front of others?  He had free will Avril----what turned Peter back?  Himself?  Give me a break----Jesus said "I have prayed for you that your faith fail not".  That is why Peter turned back.

If you WANT to twist Hebrews 7:25 so that it has LESS POWER and significance than it definitely shows, be my guest. I don't understand why you would want to do that.  To each his own I guess.

Fish,

read the quote "who are those that Jesus intercedes for? "those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them"

Jesus intercedes for"those who come to God through him, for the believers... That's an obvious point. Nobody disagrees that Jesus intercedes for the believers. It's irrelevant to the very different point you've been struggling, in vain, to make: "that a believer can never reject Jesus; can never become an unbeliever"

No matter how you try to twist it, Hebrews 7:25 is irrelevant to your unscriptural argument. If you can read this quote with an open mind, you'll see that it is utterly irrelevant to the point you're trying to prove. There's nothing about eternal, no free-will, salvation there

k-pappy

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 19:25:49 »
Bond,

you seem to question my sincerity. Two people can honestly disagree. You say that Universalism, that claims that everyone is saved, is a heresy. I believe you. In that context, what does that statement you just made really mean "If our works do not measure up, we will still be saved....If our works do not measure up...no reward...we will still be saved, but "only as one escaping through the flames."??

Who is not saved, according to you, then??


Yes, I do question your sincerety.  You have equated salvation by grace with univeralism.  That is not sincerety, that is an agenda to promote legalism.

If you have read what I have written, you know who is and who is not saved.  Yet you feign ignorance to promote an agenda.  Sorry, there is absolutely no sincerety in your posts.

You are a legalist.  You believe we must work for salvation.

I am a Christian, I believe all we need is Jesus for salvation.  Our views are competely incompatible.

Jesus = Salvation = Truth

Works =  Salvation = Legalism

And from what I can tell you believe Jesus + Works = Salvation.  That is also legalism.

Funny how you admit univeralism is heresy, but then go to the opposite extreme and promote the heresy of legalism.

Bond

Offline AvrilNYC

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 19:51:11 »
Bond,

you seem to question my sincerity. Two people can honestly disagree. You say that Universalism, that claims that everyone is saved, is a heresy. I believe you. In that context, what does that statement you just made really mean "If our works do not measure up, we will still be saved....If our works do not measure up...no reward...we will still be saved, but "only as one escaping through the flames."??

Who is not saved, according to you, then??


Yes, I do question your sincerety.  You have equated salvation by grace with univeralism.  That is not sincerety, that is an agenda to promote legalism.

If you have read what I have written, you know who is and who is not saved.  Yet you feign ignorance to promote an agenda.  Sorry, there is absolutely no sincerety in your posts.

You are a legalist.  You believe we must work for salvation.

I am a Christian, I believe all we need is Jesus for salvation.  Our views are competely incompatible.

Jesus = Salvation = Truth

Works =  Salvation = Legalism

And from what I can tell you believe Jesus + Works = Salvation.  That is also legalism.

Funny how you admit univeralism is heresy, but then go to the opposite extreme and promote the heresy of legalism.

Bond

I believe that salvation is a joint project between us and Jesus. It's called synergy. Jesus is all-powerful and could impose salvation on everyone if He wanted. But HE doesn't want to, because He is humble and respects our free will.

So Jesus = Salvation, only for those who accept Jesus. For those who reject Jesus, there's no Salvation. Therefore Jesus + "our acceptance of His love" = Salvation. It's a joint project, we're not puppets or zombies. Would you agree with that?

I do not believe that Works = Salvation, unless those works are done due to our Faith in and Love for Jesus. But Faith without works is dead and fake.

Yes I do believe we must "work" for Salvation. Jesus "worked" for us. He gave His life for us. He suffered for us. Our Faith and Love for Jesus, if it is genuine and not fake, will manifest in following His commandments. No-one is saved unless He/She follows Jesus' commandments.

As far as "salvation by grace" It means different things to different people. For me grace is not sufficient. It needs human acceptance. Otherwise it does not bear fruit. Remember the parable of the Banquet? Many were invited, but few showed up. He have to show up, an invitation is not enough

If grace is sufficient, we end up with blind determinism, which is very similar to either Calivinism or Universalism. Both very erroneous "theories' as far as I'm concerned

Am I legalist? No, I'm not because for me "works" bear fruit only if done out of our Love for Jesus. What's in the heart, matters more than what we do. But we have to do our part. That's not legalism, it's what Jesus commanded

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 19:51:11 »



k-pappy

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #40 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 19:59:20 »
I believe that salvation is a joint project between us and Jesus. It's called synergy. Jesus is all-powerful and could impose salvation on everyone if He wanted. But HE doesn't want to, because He is humble and respects our free will.

No it is not called synergy, it is called legalism and it is heresy.

Yes I do believe we must "work" for Salvation. Jesus "worked" for us. He gave His life for us. He suffered for us. Our Faith and Love for Jesus, if it is genuine and not fake, will manifest in following His commandments. No-one is saved unless He/She follows Jesus' commandments.

Once again, this is legalism and is heresy.

As far as "salvation by grace" It means different things to different people. For me grace is not sufficient. It needs human acceptance. Otherwise it does not bear fruit. Remember the parable of the Banquet? Many were invited, but few showed up. He have to show up, an invitation is not enough

If grace is sufficient, we end up with blind determinism, which is very similar to either Calivinism or Universalism. Both very erroneous "theories' as far as I'm concerned

Wrong, 100% completely wrong and a dishonest attempt to dismiss God's Word.  As a matter of fact, by admitting that Jesus is not enough for salvation, you have pretty much admitted you do not trust Him.

I'm sorry, but Jesus said HE is the way, HE is the truth, HE is the life.  You are adding to God's word and taking away from His Power and His Greatness.

I am moving this thread to the non-traditional theology forum as your ideas about salvation are definitely non-traditional.

If another moderator disagrees about the legalism espoused in this thread, they may move it back.

Bond

ETA:  " 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" -- Galatians 3:1-5

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" -- Galatians 2:21
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 20:23:20 by BondServant »

larry2

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #41 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 20:03:26 »

Just saying that you love Christ is not enough. A true believer is convicted by Him daily. They feel guilt when the sin and strive to uphold His standards. Every day the believer wrestle with the wickedness of the world and the sinful nature of the heart but never gives up.

James said that faith with out deeds is dead. The fruits of true believers are the deeds in which they carry themselves not the meaningless words they speak.

To Avril

In regards to your question there is no way under the sun to be absolutely sure of one's salvation. Only the truly arrogant will say that they are so forgiven that God couldn't possibly find fault in the life. Salvation, like the very belief of God, stands on pure faith. Unless you get lucky and God gives you a divine sign like He frequently did in the old days. lol



Possibly believing that you cannot know you're saved is a sign of unbelief. I'm assuming that you believe the degree of your faith constitutes salvation. In other words, a weak faith and you're not as saved as one of great faith? A dead faith and you're not saved at all?

I could care less what others believe but I do put my faith in the fact God tells me I am saved. 1 John 5:13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life . . .

1 Peter 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
   
Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Offline fish153

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #42 on: Wed Jul 14, 2010 - 13:04:02 »
For the love of God fish, stop posting the same erroneous translation of Hebrews 7:25. You seem like a nice guy, do you have to distort Hebrews 7:25 to make your point?? Here we go again

What does Hebrews 7:25 say in Greek?

25 ὅθεν καὶ σῴζειν εἰς τὸ παντελὲς δύναται τοὺς προσερχομένους δι' αὐτοῦ τῷ θεῷ, πάντοτε ζῶν εἰς τὸ ἐντυγχάνειν ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν. παντελὲς = completely, as NIV states "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

As I'm a Greek native speaker I can assure you that παντελὲς = completely, sorry. Also, you skipped the "able" part. Your quote talks about Jesus' ability (is able = δύναται ) to save completely (=παντελὲς )

Also, let's see where Jesus Himself says how someone can gain and then lose his teaching (Matthew 13:18-21)

"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

That's human nature fish. That's Jesus' teaching..some people "fall away" despite having received His word "with joy"

Fish, if the only way to prove your point is to distort the Bible.....learn some Greek man ::smile::

Avril----

Actually, you are distorting the Greek.  Listen, my friend, no matter how YOU try to bend it,  it says Jesus "ever lives to intercede for them"---that is how he is able to save them completely.  Who can remove Jesus from his throne? Can you?  Can you stop Jesus from praying for someone he desires to completely and totally save?  Can the person themselves stop Jesus from praying for them?  Could Peter?  Could Peter run into perdition when he denied Christ three times in front of others?  He had free will Avril----what turned Peter back?  Himself?  Give me a break----Jesus said "I have prayed for you that your faith fail not".  That is why Peter turned back.

If you WANT to twist Hebrews 7:25 so that it has LESS POWER and significance than it definitely shows, be my guest. I don't understand why you would want to do that.  To each his own I guess.

Fish,

read the quote "who are those that Jesus intercedes for? "those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them"

Jesus intercedes for"those who come to God through him, for the believers... That's an obvious point. Nobody disagrees that Jesus intercedes for the believers. It's irrelevant to the very different point you've been struggling, in vain, to make: "that a believer can never reject Jesus; can never become an unbeliever"

No matter how you try to twist it, Hebrews 7:25 is irrelevant to your unscriptural argument. If you can read this quote with an open mind, you'll see that it is utterly irrelevant to the point you're trying to prove. There's nothing about eternal, no free-will, salvation there

Avril---

It's amazing (I've noticed this in your posts) how you accept PART of a verse, but then ignore the rest of it and it's correlated meaning.

"He is able to save to the uttermost (forever) those who come to God through Him, seeing He EVER LIVES to make intercession for them". (Heb. 7:25)

Look at the verse.  WHY is he "ABLE (totally sufficient for the task) to save to the uttermost (forever) those who come to God through Him"? BECAUSE He "ever lives (no one can remove Him from His throne or stop Him from interceding for each and EVERY believer) to make intercession for them".

Don't you see the meaning in that verse?  As a bad example, if you boarded a ship bound for another country and the captain said "Since you have boarded this boat, I am ABLE to get you to the end destination, because the boat is completely unsinkable, and I MYSELF will be at the helm". 

Dont you see?  Your arriving at your destination will not depend on what a great passenger you are, but on how dependable and trustworthy the boat and it's esteemed captain are!!   That is what Hebrews 7:25 is saying!!    He is ABLE to save anyone to the uttermost----BECAUSE HE IS PRAYING FOR THEM CONTINUALLY THAT THEY NEVER FALL. ----as he did for Peter when Satan "desired to sift him as wheat".

God bless you---but you are not seeing the complete and total salvation that is offered to the believer----it is not dependent on US---but on God himself! He has not removed our wills----but he loves His children SO MUCH that their is no way he would let any true believer fall away into perdition---this is not scriptural.

Offline AvrilNYC

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #43 on: Wed Jul 14, 2010 - 13:47:24 »
fish,

I believe in free-will. Jesus has the power to be sufficient for our salvation if He wanted to, but He respects our free will. That's why He wants our acceptance. It is His rules. For me Jesus is all powerful, but out of humility and love for us sinners, He requires our free-will acceptance of His message to save us.



Yes I do believe that our co-operation, manifested in good works done out of love for Jesus and neighbor,  is necessary for salvation, but not because Jesus is not powerful enough to save us without our cooperation, but because that's what Jesus demands of us!! He demands that we work hard, in fear and trembling, that we take our cross and carry it for Him, the way He did it for us.

fish, you can accuse me of many things, but please don't accuse me of not believing in an all-powerful Jesus, because that is not true. I believe in an all-powerful, but humble, God. That;s the beauty and uniqueness of our Lord, this combination of absolute power and humility

To go back to Hebrews 7:25 "He EVER LIVES to make intercession for them" Yes He does...so how does that prove your point that someone who is saved does not have the free-will to reject Jesus??

Offline fish153

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #44 on: Wed Jul 14, 2010 - 14:24:29 »
fish,

I believe in free-will. Jesus has the power to be sufficient for our salvation if He wanted to, but He respects our free will. That's why He wants our acceptance. It is His rules. For me Jesus is all powerful, but out of humility and love for us sinners, He requires our free-will acceptance of His message to save us.



Yes I do believe that our co-operation, manifested in good works done out of love for Jesus and neighbor,  is necessary for salvation, but not because Jesus is not powerful enough to save us without our cooperation, but because that's what Jesus demands of us!! He demands that we work hard, in fear and trembling, that we take our cross and carry it for Him, the way He did it for us.

fish, you can accuse me of many things, but please don't accuse me of not believing in an all-powerful Jesus, because that is not true. I believe in an all-powerful, but humble, God. That;s the beauty and uniqueness of our Lord, this combination of absolute power and humility

To go back to Hebrews 7:25 "He EVER LIVES to make intercession for them" Yes He does...so how does that prove your point that someone who is saved does not have the free-will to reject Jesus??

Avril---

I don't mean to be questioning your belief in Jesus-----I just think you are limiting the love he has for the believer.  He knows each of us all too well.  He did not lay aside his divinity, come to the earth, be crucified, and then leave our salvation in our own hands.  Each of us can make choices we later regret horribly.  Christians turn away from God-------  I did a long time ago myself.  In fact, I hit a point of being very angry at God (unwarranted---and I see that now) and refusing to pray, read the Bible, or go to church.  I stayed like that for a few years.

I was exercising my "free will"----but because I CHOSE to turn away from Jesus---it didn't CHANGE HIS LOVE FOR ME.  The Lord, as he promised in His Word chastised me, and after time I saw how wrong I was, and deeply repented for blaming God for my problems. If I had not been saved perhaps God would have allowed me to exercise my free will right into hell.  It says in Hebrews that "bastards" are without chastisement. (see Hebrews 12).  But because I had truly been born-again, Jesus let me exercise my free will, but also stepped in to chastise me as THE GOOD SHEPHERD does when using the rod and staff he carries.

That is why Jesus when speaking of His sheep says "they shall never perish". Many seem to think that even though no one else can remove us from the hand of the Father, that somehow WE can jump out of his hand if we wanted and perish.  But Jesus never says that.  God loves us too much as His children to allow any of his true children to wind up in hell.  If one believes that God would allow one of HIS OWN CHILDREN to turn back to perdition, one simply does not understand that infinite and eternal love of God for those he has "chosen before the foundation of the world".  Jesus said "All that the Father has given Me WILL come to Me".

Offline CDHealy

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #45 on: Mon Aug 09, 2010 - 14:44:29 »
Just curious: why was this posted in the EO forum?  It appears none of the commenters are Orthodox (though perhaps I am mistaken in one or two instances.)

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #46 on: Wed Aug 11, 2010 - 09:27:45 »
Wondered the same thing.  I read further into the exchanges and because one of the moderators believes Avril's posts (he's Roman Catholic) to be heretical and legalistic, the moderator decided to move this conversation to a "non-traditional" section of the "christian" board. 

Orthodox.  Non-traditional. 

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Offline AvrilNYC

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #47 on: Wed Aug 11, 2010 - 09:34:10 »
I have found this area to be one of the main differences between Orthodox/Catholic on one side and many Protestants on the other.

Offline Macrina

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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #48 on: Wed Aug 11, 2010 - 10:00:25 »
An Orthodox response would be that we are working out our salvation. Since it is God's will that mankind be "saved", I think the question is does mankind believe they can prevent the will of God.

Or another way of putting it would be, what are you being saved for? That is, since God has already "saved" us by the Incarnation.


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Re: How do we know we "know" we are saved??
« Reply #49 on: Fri Aug 17, 2012 - 13:01:06 »
The only thing I have to work on is forgiving, that is a difficult one, any advice appreciated, but I'm almost there I think. I donate clothes all the time and take care of the ill other wise.