The Orthodox Teaching on St Paul's Justification by Faith

[zoonance]

Is the absence of chaos the best case made as evidence of truth?

[CDHealy]

that our works really do contribute to our salvation, though they do not accomplish our salvation.

Is Person A with faith saved MORE because he has more good works than Person B who also has faith?  I am unsure of what you are saying.  I believe there is synergy for believers.

The bugaboo is what is meant by "saved" here?  If one simply means with God in heaven, that is to say, in the quantitative sense, no.  Both would have the same status.  But if one is speaking about the development in the virtues, the degree of sanctification and so forth, then yes, Person A with more works could potentially be "more" saved than Person B.

However, even here Orthodox say, "Look, it's still all grace.  God can wholly sanctify anyone in an instant, and leave another to slowly and doggedly work out their salvation with fear and trembling over a lifetime."

When you say "our works really do contribute to our salvation", I agree with that, although I would call that sanctification, not justification.

And that is where you diverge from us Orthodox, for while we acknowledge a heuristic distinction between the two terms, we do not acknowledge an actual difference.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Darned definitions.

I think you all define faith differently.

[extranos]

For discussion, I would like to post these quotations of Church Fathers where they talk about being justified by faith alone.  I welcome your comments.  They were compiled by Pastor William Weedon, a highly-respected LCMS pastor.

"Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen." - St. Clement of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)

“To this end has His Grace and Goodness been formed upon us in Christ Jesus, that being dead according to works, redeemed through faith and saved by grace, we might receive the gift of this great deliverance.” (Ambrose, Letter 76 to Irenaeus, a layman)

“But when the Lord Jesus came, He forgave all men that sin which none could escape, and blotted out the handwriting against us by the shedding of His own Blood. This then is the Apostle's meaning; sin abounded by the Law, but grace abounded by Jesus; for after that the whole world became guilty, He took away the sin of the whole world, as John bore witness, saying: Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Wherefore let no man glory in works, for by his works no man shall be justified, for he that is just hath a free gift, for he is justified by the Bath. It is faith then which delivers by the blood of Christ, for Blessed is the man to whom sin is remitted, and, pardon granted.” (Ambrose, Letter 73, to Irenaeus, a layman)

“Human beings can be saved from the ancient wound of the serpent in no other way than by believing in him who, when he was raised up from the earth on the tree of martyrdom in the likeness of sinful flesh, drew all things to himself and gave life to the dead.” - St. Irenaeus (Against the Heresies, IV, 2, 7)

"Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ." - St. Basil the Great (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

“But we all escape the condemnation for our sins referred to above, if we believe in the grace of God through His Only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who said: ‘This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins.’” – St. Basil the Great (Concerning Baptism, TfoTC vol. 9, p. 344)

"They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed." - St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Galatians 3)

“But he calls it their 'own righteousness,' either because the Law was no longer of force, or because it was one of trouble and toil. But this he calls God's righteousness, that from faith, because it comes entirely from the grace from above, and because men are justified in this case, not by labors, but by the gift of God.” – St. John Chrysostom (Homily 17 on Romans 10:3)

“Here he shows God's power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.” Homily 7 on Romans – St. John Chrysostom

For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

“'To declare His righteousness.' What is declaring of righteousness? Like the declaring of His riches, not only for Him to be rich Himself, but also to make others rich, or of life, not only that He is Himself living, but also that He makes the dead to live; and of His power, not only that He is Himself powerful, but also that He makes the feeble powerful. So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He doth also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores (katasapentaj) of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is "declaring," that he has added, "That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith: and shun not the righteousness of God, for it is a blessing in two ways; because it is easy, and also open to all men. And be not abashed and shamefaced. For if He Himself openly declareth (endeiknutai) Himself to do so, and He, so to say, findeth a delight and a pride therein, how comest thou to be dejected and to hide thy face at what thy Master glorieth in?” - St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 3

“But what is the 'law of faith?' It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God's power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only. St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 3

"Christ is Master by virtue of His own essence and Master by virtue of His incarnate life. For He creates man from nothing, and through His own blood redeems him when dead in sin; and to those who believe in Him He has given His grace. When Scripture says, 'He will reward every man according to his works' (Matt 16:27), do not imagine that works in themselves merit either hell or the kingdom. On the contrary, Christ rewards each man according to whether his works are done with faith or without faith in Himself; and He is not a dealer bound by contract, but our Creator and Redeemer." St. Mark the Ascetic (ca. 425), On those who think that they are made righteous by works.

What is meant by mercy? and what by sacrifice? By mercy then is signified, Justification and grace in Christ, even that which is by faith. For we have been justified, not by the works of the law that we have done, but by His great mercy. And sacrifice means the law of Moses. - St. Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Luke, Homily 23

[trifecta]

Dan,

I can't right now go provide quotes but Pastor William Weedom is mistaken.  The Church Fathers did not support justification by faith alone.   His quotes are taken out of context.   Quoting the church fathers is not easy for three reasons

1) Hyberbole and honorifics were rampant in this time period.   

2) Many church fathers, especially John Chrysostom, have volumes of writings (often transcribed sermons).   So, taking out of context is much easier to do.

3) Many times the speaker will flatter the doctrine early in a sermon only to slam it later.  Justification by faith alone is good example.  Luther had a big problem with Chrysostom because he preached a few sermons condemning JBFO.   Calvin, for reasons I don't understand,  was kinder to Chrysostom.   But all the earlier Protestant fathers dealt with the church fathers; they were too important not be dealt with. 

But by the time I became a Protestant, we NEVER heard anything about Basil the Great, Gregory of Naziansus, or John Crystostom.  Now, if these guys where such supporters of JBFO, don't you think the Protestants would highlight them as evidence that Protestantism is legitimate?

[extranos]

Now, if these guys where such supporters of JBFO, don't you think the Protestants would highlight them as evidence that Protestantism is legitimate?

No.  Only Luther believed in the Real Presence.  The others rejected it.  They knew there was no respectable Father who had done such a thing.  So why appeal to the Fathers?

3) Many times the speaker will flatter the doctrine early in a sermon only to slam it later.  Justification by faith alone is good example.  Luther had a big problem with Chrysostom because he preached a few sermons condemning JBFO.   Calvin, for reasons I don't understand,  was kinder to Chrysostom.   But all the earlier Protestant fathers dealt with the church fathers; they were too important not be dealt with.

Please post examples of why Luther supposedly had a problem with Chrysostom.

I don't know how to read St. John Chrysostom any other way (Homily on Gal 3):
Gal. 3.8. “And the Scripture, 83 foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.”

If then those were Abraham’s sons, not, who were related to him by blood, but who follow his faith, for this is the meaning of the words, “In thee all the nations,” it is plain that the heathen are brought into kindred with him.

Hereby too is proved another important point. It perplexed them that the Law was the older, and Faith afterwards. Now he removes this notion by showing that Faith was anterior to the Law; as is evident from Abraham’s case, who was justified before the giving of the Law. He shows too that late events fell out according to prophecy; “The Scripture,” says he, “foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand unto Abraham.” Attend to this point. He Himself who gave the Law, had decreed, before He gave it, that the heathen should be justified by Faith. And he says not “revealed,” but, “preached the Gospel,” to signify that the patriarch was in joy at this method of justification, and in great desire for its accomplishment.

Further, they were possessed with another apprehension; it was written, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the Law, to do them.” (Deut. xxvii. 26.) And this he removes, with great skill and prudence, turning their argument against themselves, and showing that those who relinquish the Law are not only not cursed, but blessed; and they who keep it, not only not blessed but cursed. They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed. And how does he prove all this? for it is no common thing which we have promised; wherefore it is necessary to give close attention to what follows. He had already shown this, by referring to the words spoken to the Patriarch, “In thee shall all nations be blessed,” (Gen. xii. 4.) at a time, that is, when Faith existed, not the Law; so he adds by way of conclusion,

Gal. 3.9. “So then they which be of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.” 84

Then, that they might not turn round, and object that, true it was Abraham was justified by Faith, for the Law was not then given, but what instance would be found of Faith justifying after the delivery of the Law? he addresses himself to this, and proves more than they required: namely, not only that Faith was justifying, but that the Law brought its adherents under a curse. To be sure of this, listen to the very words of the Apostle.

Gal. 3.10. “For 85 as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse.”

This is what he lays down, before proving it; and what is the proof? it is from the Law itself:—

Gal. 3:10, 11. “For it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the Law to do them. Now that no man is justified by the Law is evident.”

For all have sinned, and are under the curse. However he does not say this yet, lest he should seem to lay it down of himself, but here again establishes his point by a text which concisely states both points; that no man has fulfilled the Law, (wherefore they are under the curse,) and, that Faith justifies. What then is the text? It is in the book of the prophet Habakkuk, “The just shall live by faith,” (Hab. ii. 4.) which not only establishes the righteousness that is of Faith, but also that there is no salvation through the Law. As no one, he says, kept the Law, but all were under the curse, on account of transgression, an easy way was provided, that from Faith, which is in itself a strong proof that no man can be justified by the Law. For the prophet says not, “The just shall live by the Law,” but, “by faith:” 
Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/113/index.htm

Trifecta, rather than fight it, why not celebrate our joint history of JBFA?

[ex cathedra]

Dan,

I can't right now go provide quotes but Pastor William Weedom is mistaken.  The Church Fathers did not support justification by faith alone.   His quotes are taken out of context.   Quoting the church fathers is not easy for three reasons

1) Hyberbole and honorifics were rampant in this time period.  

2) Many church fathers, especially John Chrysostom, have volumes of writings (often transcribed sermons).   So, taking out of context is much easier to do.

3) Many times the speaker will flatter the doctrine early in a sermon only to slam it later.  Justification by faith alone is good example.  Luther had a big problem with Chrysostom because he preached a few sermons condemning JBFO.   Calvin, for reasons I don't understand,  was kinder to Chrysostom.   But all the earlier Protestant fathers dealt with the church fathers; they were too important not be dealt with. 

But by the time I became a Protestant, we NEVER heard anything about Basil the Great, Gregory of Naziansus, or John Crystostom.  Now, if these guys where such supporters of JBFO, don't you think the Protestants would highlight them as evidence that Protestantism is legitimate?

i cant talk for protestants
 Lutherans dont need the church fathers to prove sinners are Justified by faith in Jesus alone.

thats told through out scripture .


and when james talks about justification  he mostly  talks about how man justifies man by what they see .

and when he mentions how  God justifies he is in agreement with all the rest of scripture how  God justifying the ungodly
with no help from men .