1000 Year Reign

[4WD]

Hebrews 7:28 says that Christ the Son is “perfected FOREVERMORE”.  For Jesus to be “perfected forevermore” meant that His perfected, resurrected body form which came out of the grave and would never die again was retained for all time thereafter.

That’s not scripture’s definition 3 Resurrection; that is yours.  The very idea that Jesus in His glorified state is in a human body form is pure speculation; and not a very good one.

[Rob]

That’s not scripture’s definition of a translation, Rob.

The single, lone example of a translation-type change of a human body was that of Enoch who never died; who “was translated that HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH” (Heb. 11:5).  He is the same individual as Melchizedek, who had “an endless life”, serving as priest of the most high God, and who Hebrews 7:8 said was STILL LIVING when that book was written.  His deathless existence as a priest served as the unique precedent for Christ’s deathless high priesthood, “made a priest after the order of Melchizedek”.

This is where 4WD’s ideas get snarled into a mess of thinking that Christ today has no  resurrected, glorified body form in heaven as our high priest.   He forgets the primary reason Hebrews 7 brings up the whole comparison between Melchizedek’s body which had an “endless life” and Christ’s post-resurrection body which also had an “endless life”, that “continueth ever” in an “unchangeable high priesthood”.

Hebrews 7:28 says that Christ the Son is “perfected FOREVERMORE”.  For Jesus to be “perfected forevermore” meant that His perfected, resurrected body form which came out of the grave and would never die again was retained for all time thereafter.

Yes I agree translation isn't the best term but it is accurate in that translate means to change from one place, state, form, or appearance to another. But yes, I agree other terminology would have been better.

Enoch not dying is a myth and the bible doesn't support that idea. The bible says that Enoch didn't "see death", it doesn't say that Enoch's body never died, only that Enoch didn't see the death of his earthly body.

Further down in that chapter of Hebrews we are told that "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb 11:13). Enoch was taken out of his body and his body dropped dead and "went the way of all the earth".

In my opinion, Enoch being the 7th from Adam represents the perfected man, the man who's sins are covered by the blood of Christ. What happened to Enoch is the same thing that happens to ALL believers just prior to the death of this earthly body. This doctrine was also taught by Jesus. Any man who keeps the word of Christ will never SEE death.

Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

[RB]

How is it that there will be a general bodily resurrection when Paul describes the resurrection as the raising of the soul? Again I think this a mixing of the resurrection doctrine with the translation of our bodies doctrine. The Resurrection isn't the translation and the translation isn't the resurrection.

Greetings again Rob~the rapture, the resurrection at the last trump, or our translation, or, being CAUGHT UP to meet Christ in the air, is ONE AND THE SAME DOCTRINE~all happening at the LAST TRUMP. It is the SAME EVENT.

1st Corinthians 15:12-55~"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

We must read these slowly and carefully, and when we do, we shall see: The second resurrection is a bodily resurrection at Christ's coming, at the last trump when time shall be no more.

The first resurrection takes place in our souls and spirit when the Spirit of God spiritually resurrects us (Ephesians 2) from the first death to spiritual life in Jesus Christ sometime between our conception and before the death of our bodies~which bodies shall be changed into a spiritual body at the resurrection, or rapture when we are caught up to forever be with Christ. The rapture and the resurrection at the last day are one and the same. It is not that difficult to understand.

Enough for now on this point before moving on.

[Rob]

Greetings again Rob~the rapture, the resurrection at the last trump, or our translation, or, being CAUGHT UP to meet Christ in the air, is ONE AND THE SAME DOCTRINE~all happening at the LAST TRUMP. It is the SAME EVENT.We must read these slowly and carefully, and when we do, we shall see: The second resurrection is a bodily resurrection at Christ's coming, at the last trump when time shall be no more.

The first resurrection takes place in our souls and spirit when the Spirit of God spiritually resurrects us (Ephesians 2) from the first death to spiritual life in Jesus Christ sometime between our conception and before the death of our bodies~which bodies shall be changed into a spiritual body at the resurrection, or rapture when we are caught up to forever be with Christ. The rapture and the resurrection at the last day are one and the same. It is not that difficult to understand.

Enough for now on this point before moving on.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate your thoughts.

[RB]

Your definition of “being made Perfect” is totally at odds with the way Hebrews 5:9 presents it.  You are presenting it as the saints’ perfect POSITION of righteousness before God.  That’s not how Jesus was described as “being made perfect” in Heb. 5:9.   Jesus, “being made perfect” (in His BODILY-resurrected state - not spiritually resurrected, because Jesus was never spiritually dead), was able to ascend to heaven in that glorified body to the Father on His resurrection day, and to become our divine / human high priest advocate in heaven that morning.  A priest after the deathless order of Melchizedek.

I'll be very brief. I agree with you on Hebrews 5:9 concerning Christ.

We, too, just like the resurrected Christ, will have this changed state of our natural body into a perfected, incorruptible condition to complete our salvation inheritance.  It is not only the soul and spirit that Christ was sent to redeem.  He allowed His body to die physically so that He could also physically redeem our dead bodies out of the dust of the grave.  Nothing for the saints gets discarded or perishes - “not a hair of our head”, as Jesus promised the disciples.

The wicked dead, however, forfeits everything  in the resurrection to damnation / destruction.  For them, everything perishes.

100% agreed.

And how can you say that Satan was DESTROYED as well as bound long ago, but that he still exists to rule over unbelievers?  Destroyed creatures have no existence whatever.  God reduced the celestial flesh of this formerly-anointed cherub to literal ashes upon the earth in the AD 70 conflagration in Jerusalem.   Ezekiel 28:18-19 promised this total destruction; “...and never shalt thou exist anymore.”  As did Isaiah 27:1, with God’s promise in that day to use His great and strong sword against the “crooked serpent” to “SLAY the dragon that is in the sea”.

There will be total destruction of Satan, but that will not be 100% completed until after the Great White Throne Judgment. He was bound at Christ's resurrection so that the gospel could go out into all the world of the Gentiles and after that is completed he shall be loosed for a season, and his destruction comes when he makes war against the CAMP OF THE SAINTS at the battle of Armageddon when God makes a great feast for the fowls of the air and invites them to a great supper, per Ezekiel 39, Christ, in Matthew 24, and John, in Revelation 19.

This is why Joseph was commended for his faith when he gave a command concerning his BONES.  He knew his physical remains were going to be altered into a new renovated condition later on, and his command concerning his bones was a testimony to his faith in that future bodily-renovation process.

Job also gave testimony that after his “appointed time” of waiting in the grave, that God would remember him and have a desire for the work of His hands - Job’s physical remains - and that Job’s body would be “made again” when his “change” had come (Job 14:13-15).  Job was one of those OT saints who was waiting to bodily be “made perfect” together with the NT saints in Hebrews 12:40.  In the AD 70 second resurrection at Christ’s return.

Agree UNTIL you added your personal thoughts concerning 70 A.D. being the time of the 2nd resurrection, also is the time of Christ's coming, when the scriptures will not support such a doctrine.

 

[RB]

And I would bet that you, erroneously, believe that *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY is a physical body existing somewhere called heaven.

Why would you call this doctrine an error and even mocking the same? 4WD, Jesus left this world in a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTED BODY never to be destroyed. It is NOT a physical body but a SPIRITUAL BODY, that has spiritual powers to disappear and appear in a moment of time! It has power that is far beyond our ability to comprehend. He left this world IN THAT BODY and he shall so come as they saw him leave per Acts one.

1st Timothy 2:5~"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

There IS a MAN in heaven at God's right hand, OR, the HIGHEST PLACE of authority that can be given. All who have ever lived and died a child of God are WITH HIM even now. We could keep going, but enough for now on this point.

[Rob]

Here is another interesting clue about the resurrection.
s touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,


Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Those verses are clearly saying that 1) God is their God and 2) God is not the God of the dead.


We know that their bodies were dead when Jesus said this. That means that "the resurrection of the dead" in those verses isn't referring to dead earthly bodies but instead it is referring to them being dead in their sins because Christ had not redeemed them yet.



One of the Pharisees errors was that they thought the resurrection was the resurrection of dead bodies and these verses are Jesus correcting them.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I would argue that the NASB leads people to the wrong conclusion by saying "they came to life". That makes it sound as if the 1st resurrection is the resurrection of dead earthly bodies which goes against Paul's explanation of the soul being resurrected in the 1st resurrection.

A "soul" just means a person... which includes a body.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Why would you call this doctrine an error and even mocking the same? 4WD, Jesus left this world in a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTED BODY never to be destroyed. It is NOT a physical body but a SPIRITUAL BODY, that has spiritual powers to disappear and appear in a moment of time! It has power that is far beyond our ability to comprehend. He left this world IN THAT BODY and he shall so come as they saw him leave per Acts one. There IS a MAN in heaven at God's right hand, OR, the HIGHEST PLACE of authority that can be given. All who have ever lived and died a child of God are WITH HIM even now. We could keep going, but enough for now on this point.

You need to look at the Greek words a little more.

A "spiritual body" does not mean some sort of ethereal being inhabiting another dimension.  That idea is completely foreign to ancient Greek (or any other ancient language).  That's some modern science fiction.

Jarrod

[RB]

You need to look at the Greek words a little more.

A "spiritual body" does not mean some sort of ethereal being inhabiting another dimension.  That idea is completely foreign to ancient Greek (or any other ancient language).  That's some modern science fiction.

Jarrod

Maybe you need to just read and believe the word of God in our English Bible given to us around four to five hundred years ago shortly after the invention of the printing press.

1st Corinthians 15:42-44~"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

What can this powerful, spiritual body do? It can just desire to be somewhere and it is there~by disappearing in one place and appearing in another place with a THOUGHT. Called it science fiction if you like, but as long as you do, then you will never come to the knowledge of the truth by mocking it.

Luke 24:13-31~"And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight."

John 20:19~"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

John 20:26~"And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you."

Just as Jesus' resurrected spiritual body could desire to be somewhere and just APPEAR, and vanished when finish.

Acts 1:9-11~"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

He could have just as easy vanished in their sight and then appear in the heavens "far above all"~ that the James Webb Space Telescope could never see! Yet he chose to leave in his powerful, spiritual body to show us that he shall return in the same manner as he left 2000 years ago. Call it science fiction if you think it is and then wait and see for yourself, Mr. Thomas. 

Matthew 22:29~Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

 

[RB]

Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Those verses are clearly saying that 1) God is their God and 2) God is not the God of the dead.


We know that their bodies were dead when Jesus said this. That means that "the resurrection of the dead" in those verses isn't referring to dead earthly bodies but instead it is referring to them being dead in their sins because Christ had not redeemed them yet.

One of the Pharisees errors was that they thought the resurrection was the resurrection of dead bodies and these verses are Jesus correcting them.

Greetings again Rob~sir, I believe you are wrong and here's why: Jesus was not correcting a Pharisee doctrine in this place, but was refuting the false doctrine of the Sadducees who did not believe in spirits, nor a bodily resurrection~they taught death ended it all! By God saying that he was the God of Abraham PROVED that Abraham was LIVING even though Abraham had died and went to be with God, which Christ had called Abraham's bosom~which I understand to mean nothing more than "dying in the faith" as Abraham did being now with God and all of the spirits of just men who had been made perfect.

We know that their bodies were dead when Jesus said this. That means that "the resurrection of the dead" in those verses isn't referring to dead earthly bodies but instead it is referring to them being dead in their sins because Christ had not redeemed them yet.

Rob, it is speaking of a future resurrection of our bodies~listen carefully:

Matthew 22:23-30~"The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,"

Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.

[4WD]

Why would you call this doctrine an error and even mocking the same? 4WD, Jesus left this world in a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTED BODY never to be destroyed. It is NOT a physical body but a SPIRITUAL BODY, that has spiritual powers to disappear and appear in a moment of time! It has power that is far beyond our ability to comprehend. He left this world IN THAT BODY and he shall so come as they saw him leave per Acts one.

You have made an enormous assumption about what a spiritual body is.  RB, we don't really even understand very well what our own spirit is.  We certainly don't have any idea whatsoever what a "spiritual body" is.  We don't really even understand very well what our conscience is, let alone what our spirit is.  And you have assumed that the body of Jesus as He came out of the tomb was a spiritual body.  That is simply not true.  His earthly body was raised up; He testified to Thomas that what came out of the tomb was His old physical natural body with the holes in His hands and in His side (John 20:24-27).  His body, dead from the crucifixion, was raised up again.  As to appearing and disappearing, that is but another miracle that He could have done that before His death and may well have; for example, Luke 4:30 suggests that is what might have happened. Such a miracle was certainly not limited to the makeup of His body. 

As for leaving this world IN THAT BODY, you simply do not know that.  All that is recorded is that "as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9).   See also Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51. 

RB, I think that you, like so many, have anthropomorphized heaven and all the inhabitants of heaven, including angels and even God, the Father.  It is quite natural to do that since we have no experiential basis for anything other than that.  And, in truth, the Scriptures tend to do that also oftentimes in speaking about God.  But the idea that Jesus now exists in human form actually sitting on a throne in heaven is, I believe, pure nonsense.  Heaven is not a place; place is a physical entity just as is time. Place and time are both physical creations.  As I mentioned before, Jesus in His prayer in John 17 prayed "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (vs 5). Clearly that was not in physical human form.  His physical human form was the result of being born into a human body.  Hebrews says that He was made "for a little while lower than the angels" (Heb 2:7,9)  "For a little while" means, to me, that He is that no longer.

There is a lot more to be said about this, but that's enough for now.

[4WD]

RB, speaking of Matthew 22:23-30 you said,

Rob, it is speaking of a future resurrection of our bodies~listen carefully: Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.

You failed to highlight the likely most significant phrase in that passage, namely, that  "in the resurrection they ..... are like angels in heaven"  Do you really believe that angels in heaven have bodies in the form of human beings?  I surely hope you do not.
 

[4WD]

Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.

The Scriptures do not speak of a "bodily resurrection"; rather it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.  It also says, that the body that dies is not the body that is raised (1 Cor 15:35-37).

[3 Resurrections]

There is truly nothing new under the sun...

This debate between a bodily resurrection versus no resurrection of the human body is as old as the Pharisee versus Sadducee positions.  A disagreement that the Apostle Paul used to his advantage when he was brought to trial before them both.  As said in Acts 23:6, “But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees and the other part Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

The disagreement between the parties on this point was so volatile that the chief captain of the Romans thought they might pull Paul to pieces between them over this very question.  Not much has changed since then with the division over this doctrine.

Jesus Himself during His earthly ministry never told His disciples to discard all the teaching of the Pharisees.  He only cautioned them not to be hypocritical in their doing of the law, but that their teaching of the law at that time was correct.

Paul also on trial before Felix AGREED with the Pharisee position on the bodily resurrection.  “Having hope toward God, which THEY THEMSELVES ALSO WAIT FOR, that there is *ABOUT TO BE* (mellein) A RISING AGAIN OF THE DEAD, both of righteous and unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15- YLT).

Not only does this verse have Paul plainly identify the truth of the Pharisee’s expectation for a bodily resurrection, it pins down the fulfillment of that resurrection to a time IMMINENTLY NEAR in their first-century experience. 
As Acts 25:25 goes on further to say, “And as he reasoned concerning righteousness and self-control and THE JUDGMENT *ABOUT TO BE* (mellontos), Felix became afraid...”.   The judgment of those resurrected dead was on the very near horizon for those hearing Paul at that time, which terrified Felix, as well it should have.

This was the same coming hour of judgment for both the good and the evil that Christ spoke about in John 5:27-29.  Because Jesus was the “Son of MAN”, He (by right of continuing to share their human body form even after His resurrection and ascension to heaven) was therefore entitled to have “authority to execute judgment” over humanity in the resurrection. 

4WD, as to your comment that those who are resurrected from the dead are “equal to the angels”, the similarity between them in Luke 20:34-36 was being confined to the saints not being able to die anymore, nor to be in a married condition.  The elect angels in heaven are deathless, and do not marry.  This has nothing to do with negating a resurrected bodily form for the saints.

And we certainly DO have an idea of what a resurrected “spiritual body” looks like and how it functions.  Just study all the information about Christ’s tangible, post-resurrection form and His capabilities, AS WELL AS THE MATT. 27: 52-53 RESURRECTED SAINTS and ALL the other verses that speak about them - and there are more than you think.

What came out of Christ’s tomb was DEFINITELY His “spiritual”, glorified body form, as scripture testifies on more than one occasion.  Do you need those references?

As RB brought out earlier about the human body form of Christ sitting presently on His throne in heaven, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, THE *MAN* Christ Jesus.”  If you, 4WD, think that this is “pure nonsense” to have a human, resurrected body form sitting in heaven, then you have NO MEDIATOR to stand between you and God to hear your petitions and your prayers. 

You brought up that Christ was made for “a little while lower than the angels”.  This says absolutely nothing about Christ completely discarding His human form after that “little while”.  It was speaking of Christ temporarily submitting to sharing with humanity a RANK lower than the created angelic order of beings.  This was not a permanent condition for Christ OR humanity.  Humans themselves would eventually be judging angels in the next life, as Paul said in I Cor. 6:3.

[4WD]

4WD, as to your comment that those who are resurrected from the dead are “equal to the angels”, the similarity between them in Luke 20:34-36 was being confined to the saints not being able to die anymore, nor to be in a married condition.  The elect angels in heaven are deathless, and do not marry.  This has nothing to do with negating a resurrected bodily form for the saints.

That there is a bodily resurrection is your eisegesis.  As I noted, Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead; he does not speak of the resurrection of the physical body.  In fact he states explicitly that the resurrection of the dead is not a bodily resurrection; rather it is a spiritual resurrection.  Your problem is that you cannot conceive of a spiritual "body" apart from a physical existence.  For you, Heaven is no less physical than is this physical universe.

Paul said, Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven(1 Cor 15:45-49). But, sadly, for you Jesus is still a man of the dust.

[3 Resurrections]

No 4WD,

Christ in heaven today is STILL called a “MAN of heaven” in the verses you are bringing up.   A male human body in heaven in a glorified, deathless, incorruptible condition.  And I notice that you seem to avoid speaking about the very clear example of the First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints and their very visible, tangible existence.  They were “exhibit A” of the “First Resurrection” for what all resurrected saints would eventually likewise inherit.

[Rob]

A "soul" just means a person... which includes a body.

Two different entities. The body is the vehicle that our soul experiences life in in this existence. Our souls depart from this body when we die.

[RB]

RB, speaking of Matthew 22:23-30 you said,You failed to highlight the likely most significant phrase in that passage, namely, that  "in the resurrection they ..... are like angels in heaven"  Do you really believe that angels in heaven have bodies in the form of human beings?  I surely hope you do not.

No, it's you that is missing the truth here~like the angels in heaven MEANING there is no physical sexual relationship among glorified saints~all earthly relationships between husband and wife cease to be in the world to come. Angels are created spirits, that will never change.

[RB]

The Scriptures do not speak of a "bodily resurrection"; rather it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.  It also says, that the body that dies is not the body that is raised (1 Cor 15:35-37).

4WD, you are confused, my friend. Let me come back later and address this. RB

[3 Resurrections]

RB, angels have a type of “celestial BODIES”, as I Cor. 15:40 describes them.  This is different  from that of “terrestrial bodies” such as you and I have now.  This is what made it possible for the “sons of God” to “leave their first estate” (of no marrying in heaven) to marry human women and have them bear a peculiar kind of hybrid children who were called “giants” in those days. 

This is why God said that His Spirit would not always strive with man because “he ALSO is flesh” (Gen. 6:3), just as the angels ALSO had a type of flesh form, but different from mankind - with all of these angels manifesting as males whenever they exhibited themselves to humans in scripture.

[4WD]

4WD, you are confused, my friend. Let me come back later and address this. RB

I'll wait to see what you have to say, but it is not me that is confused.  I think neither you nor 3 Res have really stopped to think about what you are saying. 

[Rob]

Greetings again Rob~sir, I believe you are wrong and here's why: Jesus was not correcting a Pharisee doctrine in this place, but was refuting the false doctrine of the Sadducees who did not believe in spirits, nor a bodily resurrection~they taught death ended it all! By God saying that he was the God of Abraham PROVED that Abraham was LIVING even though Abraham had died and went to be with God, which Christ had called Abraham's bosom~which I understand to mean nothing more than "dying in the faith" as Abraham did being now with God and all of the spirits of just men who had been made perfect. Rob, it is speaking of a future resurrection of our bodies~listen carefully: Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.

Yes, may bad on calling them Pharisees, they were Sadducees. Let me see if I can make my point more clearly.

There are two resurrection in this story.

This is the 1st resurrection, the resurrection of eternal life. Since God is their God and they died BEFORE Christ came, they died while they were still dead in their sins, so they will participate in the resurrection of eternal life - forgiveness of sin and the gift of eternal life in a glorified body.
Mat 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is the 2nd resurrection, the resurrection of eternal damnation. Since God is not their God, they are still dead in their sins and they will participate in the resurrection of the dead - eternal damnation.
Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

All peoples in this story have died physical deaths, so "the resurrection of the dead" has absolutely nothing to do with dead earthly bodies. God is not the God of the DEAD.

[4WD]

No 4WD,

Christ in heaven today is STILL called a “MAN of heaven” in the verses you are bringing up.   A male human body in heaven in a glorified, deathless, incorruptible condition.  And I notice that you seem to avoid speaking about the very clear example of the First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints and their very visible, tangible existence.  They were “exhibit A” of the “First Resurrection” for what all resurrected saints would eventually likewise inherit.

Lazarus was raised by Jesus, he was not "resurrected";  those saints in Matthew 27: 52-53 were raised, not resurrected. There is a difference.

Did Lazarus need to eat and sleep after he was raised?  Was he flesh and blood after he was raised? Did he need to be clothed? How about those mentioned in Matthew 27?  In your view of things will I be taller than my wife in the resurrection?  Will we be composed of flesh and blood? Will the spiritual body be composed of atoms?  If not, then what?  Will we need to eat and sleep in the resurrection. If so, what will we eat?  Will we, like Adam in the Garden, have to tend to it?  Will we have to pick the fruit ourselves or will someone else do it for us.  Will we need clothes in the resurrection? Is Jesus wearing clothes in heaven?  Will we need toilet paper in the resurrection?  Will we have to walk on those streets paved will gold?  How will we get around from place to place?  Will we be able to see things?  What will it mean to see?  Here it means sensory nerves in the eye responding to photons.  Will there be photons in the resurrections.  Will there even be eyes in that "glorified, deathless, incorruptible" body? 

There are a lot more such questions that I think you have not even thought about.  You have conjured up some imagined being in the resurrection, not one wit of which is scriptural or even half way reasonable. 

[Rob]

It's very clear the passage here refers to the living soul and not the human body. I have 3 sets of verses posted below.

The first one is exactly as it's written in the bible.
The second has "it" substituted with "the human body".
The third has "it" substituted with "the living soul".

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The human body is sown in corruption; the human body is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  The human body is sown in dishonour; the human body is raised in glory: the human body is sown in weakness; the human body is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  The human body is sown a natural body; the human body is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The living soul is sown in corruption; the living soul is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  The living soul is sown in dishonour; the living soul is raised in glory: the living soul is sown in weakness; the living soul is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  The living soul is sown a natural body; the living soul is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD, are you quite sure you aren’t a Full Preterist?  I read these exact same facetious questions from their side of the argument all the time.  And yes, there are answers for most of these questions in scripture for those with a genuine seeking soul.

Of course Lazarus was resurrected.  Ditto for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints.  There is no difference between the saints in the grave being “raised from the dead” and their being resurrected.  Same thing.  Same state.  Same result.  Once resurrected, neither Lazarus nor the Matthew 27 saints were physically capable of ever dying again, just as Christ “being RAISED FROM THE DEAD dieth no more ; death hath no more dominion over Him”, we are told.  Any saint “raised from the dead” also “dieth no more”. 

Jesus didn’t ever perform half-baked resurrections that needed a repeat performance to REALLY get the job done.  Not for Himself, nor for others in that generation.  It is appointed unto men to die the ONE TIME (Heb. 9:27) - not twice, as you are supposing.

Even Quadratus writing a defense of the church and the faith to the emperor Hadrian testified that these resurrections performed by Christ and the disciples were genuine miracles that remained alive, and were not the deceptive trickery of charlatans.

If the bodily resurrection is such an unimportant consideration that is useless and unnecessary, I wonder why you so vehemently oppose it, 4WD,  as if it was the ultimate heresy?  You remind me a bit of the atheists who spew such hatred against any concept of God being voiced.  If there is no God, it should be a matter of indifference to them whether someone worships a made-up God or not.  Yet they battle tooth and nail against a God that they say they don’t believe in.  It’s really not the case that they don’t believe there is a God.  Instinctively they know that there is.  They just hate Him, is all there is to it.

Why do you give every impression of hating the bodily resurrection so much?  I’m curious.

[4WD]

I read these exact same facetious questions from their side of the argument all the time.  And yes, there are answers for most of these questions in scripture for those with a genuine seeking soul.

Perhaps you could supply those answers to those questions; or at least the references.

Of course Lazarus was resurrected.  Ditto for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints.  There is no difference between the saints in the grave being “raised from the dead” and their being resurrected.  Same thing.  Same state.  Same result.  Once resurrected, neither Lazarus nor the Matthew 27 saints were physically capable of ever dying again, just as Christ “being RAISED FROM THE DEAD dieth no more ; death hath no more dominion over Him”, we are told.  Any saint “raised from the dead” also “dieth no more”. 

So of course you have met some of them or know where they are now.

If the bodily resurrection is such an unimportant consideration that is useless and unnecessary, I wonder why you so vehemently oppose it, 4WD,  as if it was the ultimate heresy? 

Probably not the ultimate heresy, but certainly a big one.  The bodily resurrection is not an unimportant consideration that is useless and unnecessary; it is simply a wrong consideration.

Why do you give every impression of hating the bodily resurrection so much?  I’m curious.

Hate it? No, I just oppose all such thinking that is wrong.  And it does terribly trivialize the magnificence and glory of the actual resurrection.

[4WD]

4WD, are you quite sure you aren’t a Full Preterist?

I am an amillennialist. Preterism at any level in any form is heresy; and probably one of the more insidious heresies.

[RB]

RB, angels have a type of “celestial BODIES”, as I Cor. 15:40 describes them.  This is different  from that of “terrestrial bodies” such as you and I have now.

I must respectfully disagree, for a few reasons.

1st Corinthians 15:40 said not one word about angels having a celestial body, you are assuming that it is speaking of them. Angels are created spirits, that can take on a terrestrial body if God wills that to be so, and we know that he has from time to time~but we have no proof that they can without God's permission and power to allow them to do so. Whenever angels appeared in the OT, or even in the NT, they ALWAYS had a body by ALL INCLINATION that was terrestrial~except Jesus resurrected body, and even Jesus' body was not by its outward appearance, but we know what body he had after his resurrection~a glorified celestial body, which he STILL has, far above all, a place where no human has the power to see or even explore~ if so, then God would not be God and his power infinite.

This is what made it possible for the “sons of God” to “leave their first estate” (of no marrying in heaven) to marry human women and have them bear a peculiar kind of hybrid children who were called “giants” in those days.

The wild speculation of angels having sexual intercourse with human women to generate science fiction supermen should be ignored, based on this bizarre interpretation.  Having turned their ears away from sound doctrine and truth for fables, carnal Christians (NOT saying you are, but most are who follow such teachings) with itching ears have found teachers that will scratch their lusts with these farfetched tales of a super race (2nd Timothy 4:3-4). Rather than learn Christ, truth, and godliness, they want to be entertained with ridiculous propositions based on even more ridiculous interpretational methods. The texts above do not say or imply anything about angels, and the rest of the scripture is totally silent about such an incredible heaven-earth,  interracial sexual event, and its result.  It is the logical fallacy of begging the question or circular reasoning to assume that angels are intended by a few uses of “sons of God” for angels in Job 1:6; 2:1; and 38:7. There is no reason to connect these passages beyond the mere sound of their words, which is a presumptive mistake violating even elementary hermeneutics for rightly dividing scripture (Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15). Rather than leap into the black abyss of angel-human mongrels running around in dark forests or leading international conspiracies, let sane readers weigh the evidence for a  much simpler and Biblical explanation of the text. The scriptures themselves will prove that God in this passage ... identified the sin of  His adopted children (Seth’s descendants) marrying the reprobate children of the world (Cain’s and others’ descendants), thus bringing the Flood on the whole world, except for the family of Noah, which obtained mercy for his faithful obedience.

1. The sin was by men of flesh, not by angels,  for God in context and in consequence, said he would not always strive with fleshly man  (Genesis  6:3). The sin was taking daughters for marriage~not a sin of giving daughters in marriage.  This must be human males taking human females, for the sin was by fleshly men, not angels, and the sin was taking the wives.

2. The sin was by men of flesh, not by angels, for God’s consequential judgment came on humanity and other breathing creatures in  120  years, when  He drowned the human race by Noah’s Flood (Genesis 6:3). Nothing happened to any angels 120 years later. Angelic destruction and punishment were thousands of years away, as they confessed to theLord Christon earth.

3. Verse  6:3  compares two things that are flesh.  Since God is not flesh,  He is not compared.  Since angels are not flesh  (and not mentioned here),  they are not compared.  Are there comparable fleshly things in context? Sons of God and daughters of men! So much more could be added, but enough said on this subject.
 

[Rob]

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Three points in this verse:

• Many, but not all, that slept in the dust were raised from their sleep.
• Of those that were raised, some were raised to everlasting life.
• Of those that were raised, some were raised to everlasting contempt.

Things to glean from this.

• Souls don't sleep, sleep has to be referring to the body.
• Of the many that slept, ALL that were raised were judged.
• All, not just many, are raised and judged at The Resurrection.

Conclusion: Daniel 12:2 ties The Resurrection to a time when of MANY, but NOT ALL, dead bodies will rise. That happened here, at the resurrection of Christ.

Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[Rob]

A "soul" just means a person... which includes a body.

This article gives a very good explanation of the spirit, soul and body.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Rob,

Addressing your comment #64 above, where you link Daniel 12:2’s resurrection of “many” with that of Christ and the Matt. 27 resurrected saints.  That can’t be correct, because Daniel 12:2’s resurrection takes place following the great tribulation in Daniel 12:1, “such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time...”.  This tribulation in Daniel 12:1 is exactly the same as the “great tribulation” like no other that was supposed to be “IMMEDIATELY” followed by Christ’s coming return to gather His resurrected saints (Matt. 24:21&29-31).

There was NO “great tribulation” period like no other that was taking place before Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection with the Matt. 27 saints.

Conclusion: Daniel 12:2 can’t possibly be describing the “FIRST resurrection”.  It has to be the second.

Don’t trip over the word “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2 by presuming it doesn’t include all who had died up to that date.  Try comparing the same use of the word “MANY” (which really means ALL) as found in Romans  5:18 and 19.  “MANY were made sinners” by Adam’s offense, but it really means that “judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation”.  There were no exceptions to the “MANY” in that context. 

Same with the “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2.  It was really ALL who had died up to that point that were included.

[4WD]

This article gives a very good explanation of the spirit, soul and body.

The article has it wrong.  It should be "I am a soul, I have a body and I have a spirit."  A soul is simply a living being. I will demonstrate that with scripture if you like.

[Rob]

Hi Rob,

Addressing your comment #64 above, where you link Daniel 12:2’s resurrection of “many” with that of Christ and the Matt. 27 resurrected saints.  That can’t be correct, because Daniel 12:2’s resurrection takes place following the great tribulation in Daniel 12:1, “such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time...”.  This tribulation in Daniel 12:1 is exactly the same as the “great tribulation” like no other that was supposed to be “IMMEDIATELY” followed by Christ’s coming return to gather His resurrected saints (Matt. 24:21&29-31).

There was NO “great tribulation” period like no other that was taking place before Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection with the Matt. 27 saints.

Conclusion: Daniel 12:2 can’t possibly be describing the “FIRST resurrection”.  It has to be the second.

Don’t trip over the word “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2 by presuming it doesn’t include all who had died up to that date.  Try comparing the same use of the word “MANY” (which really means ALL) as found in Romans  5:18 and 19.  “MANY were made sinners” by Adam’s offense, but it really means that “judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation”.  There were no exceptions to the “MANY” in that context. 

Same with the “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2.  It was really ALL who had died up to that point that were included.

As I mentioned before, and per 2 Corinthians, The Resurrection has nothing to do with the raising of dead bodies. This mixing of the two types of resurrections, dead earthly bodies and dead in sin and trespass in one verse is classic MO for God. God hides the truth in plain sight, but it takes believing every word of God exactly as it's written in order to glean the truth from scripture.... "many" means many, not all. To ignore that will keep the secret hidden.

The time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble happened when Christ took the kingdom from Israel, hence the time of Jacob's trouble. Consider what happened when Christ died. There was a great earthquake, the sun went dark at noon, the bones and bodies of the OT saints were unearthed. Three days later they stood to their feet and walked the streets of Jerusalem.

We are given even more insight as to what happened around the death and resurrection of Christ in Psalm 18. That was the start of GREAT tribulation and culminated with the total destruction of Israel in AD 70. Those things will never happen again.

Psa 18:4  The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. 
Psa 18:5  The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. 
Psa 18:6  In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. 
Psa 18:7  Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. 
Psa 18:8  There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. 
Psa 18:9  He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. 
Psa 18:10  And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. 
Psa 18:11  He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. 
Psa 18:12  At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. 
Psa 18:13  The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire. 
Psa 18:14  Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them. 
Psa 18:15  Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils. 

[Rob]

The article has it wrong.  It should be "I am a soul, I have a body and I have a spirit."  A soul is simply a living being. I will demonstrate that with scripture if you like.

I can see your point. I think the most important thing to understand is that the body is not the soul and soul is not the body.