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Christian Interests => End Times Forum => Topic started by: Rob on Tue Dec 15, 2020 - 12:16:26

Title: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Tue Dec 15, 2020 - 12:16:26
For those of you who believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is literal, as I used to believe also, how can it be literal when the resurrection of the just and unjust takes place on the "last day". But in Revelation it says the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years had expired. Am I missing something?

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 05:41:08
The First Resurrection:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live (John 5:24-25).
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 05:56:40
The First Resurrection:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live (John 5:24-25).
Yes the first resurrection is the resurrection of everlasting life and the second resurrection is resurrection of damnation. Both of those resurrections are The Resurrection which happens on the Last Day.

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 06:57:05
deleted
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 07:30:34
This wasn’t meant to be difficult.

There is a particular order to the bodily resurrection events, as found in I Cor. 15:23-24.  Christ was to be the unique “FIRST-begotten” one of the “FIRST-fruits” to ascend and stand before the Father in a resurrected body.  He had to make the way possible at His resurrection-day ascension for all His fellow siblings to follow “AFTERWARDS” in time. 

And Christ also raised to life again a group of ONLY SAINTS that, along with Himself, came up out of their graves which were located at Jerusalem in Matthew 27:52-53.   There were “MANY” of them that rose with Christ; a “MULTITUDE OF CAPTIVES”, as Ephesians 4:8 described them.  To be more precise, these “First-fruits” saints amounted to 144,000, as Rev. 7 and 14:4 enumerates the “FIRST-fruits” Matt. 27 Jewish saints of the “FIRST resurrection”.

“But every man in his own order: Christ the FIRST-FRUITS; AFTERWARD they that are Christ’s at His coming.  THEN the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God...”

To start with, this set of verses describes the “FIRST resurrection” event in AD 33.  The “AFTERWARD” part describes the very next  SECOND resurrection event, when “ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

The good and evil, (or the just and unjust), were TOGETHER to participate in the second resurrection event that Christ spoke of in John 5:28-29 - not separately in different events.

There is a reason Christ said that “the hour is coming AND NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall LIVE.”  At that time in Christ’s ministry, He had given the 12 disciples power to “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils...”, but ONLY in certain cities having “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” - NOT in Samaria or the cities of the Gentiles (Matt. 10:5-8).  These were single, sporadic cases of individual resurrections in Israel that Christ said “NOW IS” going on during His earthly ministry, but they were not yet the main group event of the “FIRST Resurrection” of Christ and His fellow “First-fruits” saints in AD 33.

And Rev. 20:5 tells us that the literal 1,000-years ENDED, or “EXPIRED” with “Christ the First-fruits” and His AD 33 “FIRST Resurrection”.  It was at that year when the “Rest of the dead came to life again”.  This word “rest” is more accurately translated “the REMNANT (loipoi) of the dead”, which is only a small fraction of “ALL that are in the graves”.  This small “remnant” amounted to the 144,000 “First-fruits” saints - in other words, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints that rose with Christ.  They were only a small fraction compared to “ALL that are in the graves” that would arise in the hour that Christ said was coming in John 5:28.



Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 08:30:22
3 resurrections I think you have confused the raising of dead bodies with The Resurrection. According to Paul, The Resurrection is the resurrection of our souls not dead earthly bodies.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The "it" in those verses is the living soul that is sown into these corrupt earthly bodies. The thing that gets raised at the Resurrection is our souls, not our earthly bodies. This is the resurrection of life, Paul doesn't cover the resurrection of the damned in those verses.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:32:11
Rob, the ENTIRE PACKAGE that makes up a person - body, spirit and soul - is eventually all included in the final resurrected state.  Not just our spirit and soul were purchased with Christ’s blood, but our bodies also which belong to Him as His purchased possession.  That’s why Paul said we are to glorify God with not only our spirit but our bodies also while in this life.  We are to present our entire being as a “living sacrifice”.

As saints, we are called “JOINT-HEIRS” with Christ.  That means all saints can expect to share in the very same inheritance - the very same bodily condition that Christ was raised in.  Which we are told was a tangible physical body that could never die again.  “Flesh and bone” that could be handled, but no blood, because the life of the flesh before death is in the blood.

This is why the world was given the clear example of the resurrected physical bodies of the 144,000 FIRST-fruits saints which were raised along with Christ in the “FIRST Resurrection” - those in Matthew 27:52-53.  They were “SEEN OF MANY” in the city of Jerusalem, and “remained” on earth after Christ’s ascension to serve as prophets, apostles, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the early church, as Ephesians 4 tells us.

The clear example of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints demonstrated more than simply a spiritual awakening to life - they were living, walking illustrations of the body forms of the saints rendered incorruptible, so that they can never die again, and so that they can stand face-to-face in God’s presence.

When Jesus was going to present all the resurrected, faultless children of the kingdom to God the Father with “exceeding great joy”, He was going to say “BEHOLD, I and the children whom thou hast given me.”  How in the world could God “BEHOLD” something that would have no visible, physical body form?

The case for the bodies of the wicked unregenerate who do NOT have the covering of Christ’s righteousness is to perish from existence forever.  God destroys them, both body and soul.  “The wicked shall not stand in the judgment...”.  They have no protection, and are utterly destroyed by the consuming fire of God’s holiness.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:46:03
3 resurrections I think you have confused the raising of dead bodies with The Resurrection. According to Paul, The Resurrection is the resurrection of our souls not dead earthly bodies.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The "it" in those verses is the living soul that is sown into these corrupt earthly bodies. The thing that gets raised at the Resurrection is our souls, not our earthly bodies. This is the resurrection of life, Paul doesn't cover the resurrection of the damned in those verses.
You hit the nail on the head here Rob.  3 Resurrections is confused; and not just about dead bodies.  His Preterism has distorted just about everything about God's plan of salvation for the lost.  Paul says that  "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."; but here 3 Resurrections seems to think those are one and the same and that the natural body which is dead and gone will be revived [raised, resurrected]. That is not what Paul said; but no matter, 3 Resurrections wants  his old body back. He, like too many others, and not just Preterists, erroneously think the raised spiritual body will be just a "perfect" natural body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:57:17
4WD, you are the one confused.  You are tossing out Philippians 3:21 entirely.  “Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY that it may be fashioned LIKE UNTO *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY.” 

This describes our own natural body that we have before our physical death that is itself to be “CHANGED” - NOT EX-CHANGED for another.  The natural body for a child of God is altered and renovated into a glorious, incorruptible state - JUST LIKE CHRIST’S, as we are promised.

If you look at all the features and capabilities of Christ’s resurrected form given to us in scripture, this is the very same that we can expect for ourselves in the final resurrected state.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 10:10:34
And to return more on target with the original post theme, it is NOT CHRIST whose reign was to be limited to a mere 1,000 years total, start to finish.  It is SATAN that had a limit put upon his deception of the nations for that literal thousand years that expired with the “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33.

After that AD 33 “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33, Satan was loosed again in great anger to wreak havoc on the “inhabitants of the earth and the sea” (Israel and the Gentile nations) during those days of the early church.  He and his demonic realm did their worst, but he was well aware that his time was indeed “short” until his scheduled destruction back then.

Paul promised the Roman believers that God would SOON crush Satan under their feet “shortly” after that.  Which means that Satan has been destroyed long ago, or the Apostle Paul was a liar. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 10:53:51
3 Resurrections, I agree that all saints are joint heirs and will receive the same inheritance, one of those being a glorified body.

All of us are born in a fallen state, we are dead in our sins and trespasses against God. The Old Testament saints died in that condition because Christ had not yet paid for their redemption. The day Christ rose from the dead, their sins were forgiven and they were raised from that state to the state of being made right in the eyes of God.

Since they died prior to Christ coming, they were still dead in their sins and trespass and could not enter into heaven. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the promised seed, Christ, came and paid their redemption. When their redemption was purchased, they were then legally permitted to receive their inheritance.... And they did receive it.

Hebrews tells us that ALL saints are made perfect at the same time. If they weren't made perfect at the resurrection, then we as believers after the resurrection, aren't made perfect either. Perfect is our standing in Christ, not our perfect bodies.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 

Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 11:16:10
You hit the nail on the head here Rob.  3 Resurrections is confused; and not just about dead bodies.  His Preterism has distorted just about everything about God's plan of salvation for the lost.  Paul says that  "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."; but here 3 Resurrections seems to think those are one and the same and that the natural body which is dead and gone will be revived [raised, resurrected]. That is not what Paul said; but no matter, 3 Resurrections wants  his old body back. He, like too many others, and not just Preterists, erroneously think the raised spiritual body will be just a "perfect" natural body.
It's impossible to understand The Resurrection, the millennial kingdom and the rapture without understanding that the resurrection has nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 11:37:05
4WD, you are the one confused.  You are tossing out Philippians 3:21 entirely.  “Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY that it may be fashioned LIKE UNTO *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY.” 

This describes our own natural body that we have before our physical death that is itself to be “CHANGED” - NOT EX-CHANGED for another.  The natural body for a child of God is altered and renovated into a glorious, incorruptible state - JUST LIKE CHRIST’S, as we are promised.

If you look at all the features and capabilities of Christ’s resurrected form given to us in scripture, this is the very same that we can expect for ourselves in the final resurrected state.
I agree that Philippians 3:21 does sound like a remake of the old earthly body. But I think we have to view this scripture in light of 1 Corinthians 15. In first Corinthians 15 it's clearly presented that the soul is that which gets a new body.

Also in verse 37 it is clear that that which is sown is BARE GRAIN which I think refers to the genetics of the seed because verse 38 says that God gave the BARE GRAIN a body as it pleased him.

1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 
1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

With that taken into consideration, Phillipians 3:21 would be read as "who shall change our (the soul's) vile body, that it (the new body) will be fashioned like unto his glorious body.

Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I think that's the only way to reconcile those two werves but I am open for debate on it.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 11:52:07
And to return more on target with the original post theme, it is NOT CHRIST whose reign was to be limited to a mere 1,000 years total, start to finish.  It is SATAN that had a limit put upon his deception of the nations for that literal thousand years that expired with the “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33.

After that AD 33 “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33, Satan was loosed again in great anger to wreak havoc on the “inhabitants of the earth and the sea” (Israel and the Gentile nations) during those days of the early church.  He and his demonic realm did their worst, but he was well aware that his time was indeed “short” until his scheduled destruction back then.

Paul promised the Roman believers that God would SOON crush Satan under their feet “shortly” after that.  Which means that Satan has been destroyed long ago, or the Apostle Paul was a liar.
I agree that Satan was destroyed and bound long ago, but Satan is only bound in the lives of believers, not in unbelievers.... that is what the millennial kingdom is, life without Satan ruling over us.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 13:01:59
Just marking this thread so as to post in the morning.  RB
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 13:17:56
A couple points Rob,

Your definition of “being made Perfect” is totally at odds with the way Hebrews 5:9 presents it.  You are presenting it as the saints’ perfect POSITION of righteousness before God.  That’s not how Jesus was described as “being made perfect” in Heb. 5:9.   Jesus, “being made perfect” (in His BODILY-resurrected state - not spiritually resurrected, because Jesus was never spiritually dead), was able to ascend to heaven in that glorified body to the Father on His resurrection day, and to become our divine / human high priest advocate in heaven that morning.  A priest after the deathless order of Melchizedek.

We, too, just like the resurrected Christ, will have this changed state of our natural body into a perfected, incorruptible condition to complete our salvation inheritance.  It is not only the soul and spirit that Christ was sent to redeem.  He allowed His body to die physically so that He could also physically redeem our dead bodies out of the dust of the grave.  Nothing for the saints gets discarded or perishes - “not a hair of our head”, as Jesus promised the disciples.

The wicked dead, however, forfeits everything  in the resurrection to damnation / destruction.  For them, everything perishes.

And how can you say that Satan was DESTROYED as well as bound long ago, but that he still exists to rule over unbelievers?  Destroyed creatures have no existence whatever.  God reduced the celestial flesh of this formerly-anointed cherub to literal ashes upon the earth in the AD 70 conflagration in Jerusalem.   Ezekiel 28:18-19 promised this total destruction; “...and never shalt thou exist anymore.”  As did Isaiah 27:1, with God’s promise in that day to use His great and strong sword against the “crooked serpent” to “SLAY the dragon that is in the sea”. 

And your concept of the millennial kingdom does not include Rev. 20:5&7’s EXPIRATION DATE it had at the time the “FIRST resurrection” occurred in AD 33.  That Rev. 20 millennium of Satan’s binding had an actual stopping point on the calendar. 

And you are still emphasizing an EX-CHANGE  of one discarded body for another totally new one.  It’s NOT an exchange we are promised; it’s called a “CHANGE” for that same dead body to be renovated into an incorruptible state. 

This is why Joseph was commended for his faith when he gave a command concerning his BONES.  He knew his physical remains were going to be altered into a new renovated condition later on, and his command concerning his bones was a testimony to his faith in that future bodily-renovation process.

Job also gave testimony that after his “appointed time” of waiting in the grave, that God would remember him and have a desire for the work of His hands - Job’s physical remains - and that Job’s body would be “made again” when his “change” had come (Job 14:13-15).  Job was one of those OT saints who was waiting to bodily be “made perfect” together with the NT saints in Hebrews 12:40.  In the AD 70 second resurrection at Christ’s return.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:02:10
3 Resurrections I appreciate the effort in your previous post and all of those are excellent points for debate but we are getting further from the topic of the thread. I apologize, I believe I lead us off track.

The purpose of this thread is to show that the 1000 year reign can't be literal because The Resurrection is a one time event takes place on the last day.

The resurrection of life, also called the 1st resurrection, is on the last day.
Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The resurrection of the unjust, also on the last day.
Joh_12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The Resurrection - one event on the last day where the just are raised to everlasting life and the unjust are raised to everlasting contempt.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:08:55
It is also very important to understand that verse 4 and verse 5 are both the 1st resurrection.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:11:04
4WD, you are the one confused.  You are tossing out Philippians 3:21 entirely.  “Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY that it may be fashioned LIKE UNTO *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY.” 
And I would bet that you, erroneously, believe that *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY is a physical body existing somewhere called heaven.

Just as a side note;  everywhere in the NT when it speaks of the resurrection the Greek word that is used is ἀνάστασις [anastasis] except when it is speaking of the physical raising of Jesus after His crucifixion.  Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.   There the Greek word that is used is is ἔγερσις [egersis].  If you read carefully, nowhere is it ever specifically stated that the Jesus' time between His rising out of the tomb and his ascension into heaven is referred to as an ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection. I would argue that Jesus' ἔγερσις [egersis] "resurrection" and His ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection are not the same. I would further argue, as supported by scripture, that our resurrection will not be a physical ἔγερσις [egersis] raising from the dead but rather it will be spiritual ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:27:17
And I would bet that you, erroneously, believe that *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY is a physical body existing somewhere called heaven.

Just as a side note;  everywhere in the NT when it speaks of the resurrection the Greek word that is used is ἀνάστασις [anastasis] except when it is speaking of the physical raising of Jesus after His crucifixion.  Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.   There the Greek word that is used is is ἔγερσις [egersis].  If you read carefully, nowhere is it ever specifically stated that the Jesus' time between His rising out of the tomb and his ascension into heaven is referred to as an ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection. I would argue that Jesus' ἔγερσις [egersis] "resurrection" and His ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection are not the same. I would further argue, as supported by scripture, that our resurrection will not be a physical ἔγερσις [egersis] raising from the dead but rather it will be spiritual ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection.
That's good info, I don't know Greek but I suspected that Jesus' resurrection was different. What is the difference between the two resurrections - egersis and anastasis?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 16:50:17
4WD, I happen to agree with the scripture evidence in Hebrews 7:24-25 that the resurrected, glorified body of Christ “CONTINUETH EVER” because of His “unchangeable priesthood”.  “HE EVER LIVETH to make intercession” for us in that unchangeable priestly form that is “passed into the heavens”. 

You cannot have a representative priest for the human race that does not share their human form.  Jesus is the human / divine bridge that makes communication between us and the Father possible; the “daysman between us, that can lay a hand on us both”as Job once described it.   As our high priest, Jesus is STILL “made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest.” (Heb. 2:17).

He is STILL being called “The Son of Man” at His return in Matt. 24:27, as well as the title “The Son of God”, meaning He still retains that glorified, resurrected human / divine form at His return(s).

As touching the difference you are putting between a resurrection (anistemi) compared with a resurrection (egeiro), those terms do NOT discriminate between a physical and spiritual type of resurrection.  They are distinguished from one another because “egeiro” can be either an INTRANSITIVE or a TRANSITIVE verb, and “anistemi” is mainly INTRANSITIVE.

To put it in layman’s terms, an intransitive resurrection is performed on a passive receiver (you and I are raised from the dead - both spiritually and physically - by the Spirit’s power acting upon us).  In contrast, one who resurrects in the transitive sense actively transfers resurrection to a recipient. 

Jesus’ resurrection is described by BOTH terms.  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by God (intransitive example).  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit (another intransitive example).  And finally, there are verses that say Jesus raised Himself from the dead (a transitive verb example).
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 17:47:35
4WD, I happen to agree with the scripture evidence in Hebrews 7:24-25 that the resurrected, glorified body of Christ “CONTINUETH EVER” because of His “unchangeable priesthood”.  “HE EVER LIVETH to make intercession” for us in that unchangeable priestly form that is “passed into the heavens”. 

You cannot have a representative priest for the human race that does not share their human form.  Jesus is the human / divine bridge that makes communication between us and the Father possible; the “daysman between us, that can lay a hand on us both”as Job once described it.   As our high priest, Jesus is STILL “made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest.” (Heb. 2:17).

He is STILL being called “The Son of Man” at His return in Matt. 24:27, as well as the title “The Son of God”, meaning He still retains that glorified, resurrected human / divine form at His return(s).

As touching the difference you are putting between a resurrection (anistemi) compared with a resurrection (egeiro), those terms do NOT discriminate between a physical and spiritual type of resurrection.  They are distinguished from one another because “egeiro” can be either an INTRANSITIVE or a TRANSITIVE verb, and “anistemi” is mainly INTRANSITIVE.

To put it in layman’s terms, an intransitive resurrection is performed on a passive receiver (you and I are raised from the dead - both spiritually and physically - by the Spirit’s power acting upon us).  In contrast, one who resurrects in the transitive sense actively transfers resurrection to a recipient. 

Jesus’ resurrection is described by BOTH terms.  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by God (intransitive example).  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit (another intransitive example).  And finally, there are verses that say Jesus raised Himself from the dead (a transitive verb example).
There is so much eisegesis in that post that I simply reject it.  But eisegesis is so typical of you.  I will come back to it tomorrow if I get time.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 18:10:34
Hey again Rob,

I’ve no argument that Rev. 20:4-5 is describing the “FIRST Resurrection”.  But it’s not a “one and only” resurrection at the last day.  A “FIRST” resurrection of necessity demands at least a SECOND group event that follows in order of time, as laid out in I Cor. 15:23. 

And we know that “Christ the First-fruits” of necessity MUST have preceded all other group resurrections.  No one could be resurrected and then ascend to heaven in their glorified bodies until Jesus had first ascended and become the “Firstborn” one from the “First Resurrection” event in AD 33. 

The “FIRST-fruits” (both Christ and the 144,000) = The “FIRST Resurrection”, which occurred simultaneously with the EXPIRATION of the Rev. 20 millennium.  It was a literal thousand years composed of a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem.  Starting with Solomon’s temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC, and lasting until AD 33 when Christ laid Himself down as the “chief cornerstone” of the spiritual temple not made with hands.

And the “last day” with its accompanying second resurrection was “at hand” in Peter’s days, because he said “the end of all things is at hand” for those he was writing to (I Peter 4:7).
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 18:18:40
4WD, It seems fairly typical that nothing I write based on scripture ever finds acceptance with you.  Fortunately, that’s not my ultimate goal to please men.   “To my own Master I stand or fall”, as Paul would say. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 03:49:04
For those of you who believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is literal, as I used to believe also, how can it be literal when the resurrection of the just and unjust takes place on the "last day". But in Revelation it says the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years had expired. Am I missing something?

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I want to jump in and add some thoughts.

I would not say that you are missing something as far as saying the 1000 years is not to be taken literal especially so in a book of prophecy where we MUST interpret scriptures with scriptures to see the spiritual truth written for spiritually-minded children of God. We have a hint in Revelation 20:1-3 that this chapter is to be interpreted spiritually using the word of God for our understanding by comparing scripture with scriptures, here a little and there a little, etc.
Quote
Revelation 20:1-3~And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
We read the scriptures literally and THEN seek for it spiritual meaning from the same.

Really, does anyone believe a spirit can be lock up using a chain and a key? Of course not, so we must seek help from the word of God for our understanding so as not to shame ourselves before those who understand how to get a biblical answer that has a perfect flow from start to finish. 

1000 Year Reign can be interpreted by using PLAIN SCRIPTURES from God's witness of the truth.

The question at hand is, "does the 1000 year reign spoken of in Revelation chapter 20, mean that Christ is going to come and reign on this earth for a literal 1000 years after the Tribulation?" This theory is taught by a great many Theologians, but the question is, can it be verified by the scriptures themselves. And the answer is, No! The whole idea is contradictory when we consider all of the pertinent scriptures which are used to justify this belief. Nowhere is this doctrine explicitly mentioned in scripture, it is based solely on the misunderstanding or private interpretation of a few select verses.

We need to consider this (the great tribulation that is STRICTLY spiritual in nature) and 1000 year reign for they go hand in hand. No where does it say God will rapture the Church before the tribulation! In fact, the Lord says just the opposite. He says the Church will not be taken out of the world until the end of the world. He says the rapture is at "The Last day" and "The Last Trumpet". These ideas of a pre-tribulation rapture and an earthly reign of Christ are built upon an unsound foundation that will not stand the test of scripture. Let's keep moving since there's a lot of ground to cover.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 04:05:03
Yes, the first resurrection is the resurrection of everlasting life and the second resurrection is resurrection of damnation. Both of those resurrections are The Resurrection which happens on the Last Day.

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Red high light is mine for discussions....RB

Greetings Rob~I read this yesterday from you and marvel that you missed this truth concerning the two resurrections. The first and second resurrection does not happen on the last day~the GENERAL BODILY resurrection of all happens on the last day~and ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come, the other ones will perish after the final judgment in the lake of fire which IS the SECOND DEATH.

Now, did I misunderstand what you were saying, or did you not properly and distinctly divide the word of God?  As I said: "ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come"~these souls ONCE born again could NEVER die in the true sense of those words, even though they may die naturally they continue ON LIVING AND REIGNING WITH CHRIST in heaven until the thousand years are expired and then soon after that time, they shall receive their glorified bodies in the resurrection of the JUST and UNJUST on the last day. 

I'll keep going until I have addressed all posts. RB
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 06:04:17
4WD, It seems fairly typical that nothing I write based on scripture ever finds acceptance with you.  Fortunately, that’s not my ultimate goal to please men.   “To my own Master I stand or fall”, as Paul would say.
But so much of what you post is not based on scripture; but instead is based on your own eisegesis of scripture.  For example, you said,
4WD, I happen to agree with the scripture evidence in Hebrews 7:24-25 that the resurrected, glorified body of Christ “CONTINUETH EVER” because of His “unchangeable priesthood”.  “HE EVER LIVETH to make intercession” for us in that unchangeable priestly form that is “passed into the heavens”.
But Hebrews 7:24-25 doesn't say anything about "the resurrected, glorified body of Christ ".  I assume that you inferred that from the statement that "He continues forever" and/or "He always lives". But neither of those necessarily has reference to Jesus physical earthly human body.  The concept of heaven, God's abode where Jesus now exists seated at the right hand of God, being a realm of physical existence is truly weird. Jesus own prayer for Himself would suggest that is not the case.  John 17:5  And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.   He did not have a glorified body before the world existed.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 06:48:28
Hey again Rob,

I’ve no argument that Rev. 20:4-5 is describing the “FIRST Resurrection”.  But it’s not a “one and only” resurrection at the last day.  A “FIRST” resurrection of necessity demands at least a SECOND group event that follows in order of time, as laid out in I Cor. 15:23. 

And we know that “Christ the First-fruits” of necessity MUST have preceded all other group resurrections.  No one could be resurrected and then ascend to heaven in their glorified bodies until Jesus had first ascended and become the “Firstborn” one from the “First Resurrection” event in AD 33. 

The “FIRST-fruits” (both Christ and the 144,000) = The “FIRST Resurrection”, which occurred simultaneously with the EXPIRATION of the Rev. 20 millennium.  It was a literal thousand years composed of a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem.  Starting with Solomon’s temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC, and lasting until AD 33 when Christ laid Himself down as the “chief cornerstone” of the spiritual temple not made with hands.

And the “last day” with its accompanying second resurrection was “at hand” in Peter’s days, because he said “the end of all things is at hand” for those he was writing to (I Peter 4:7).
I'm coming at this from the perspective that The Resurrection is the raising of souls and not the raising of dead earthly bodies. I have to come at it from that perspective because Paul was very clear in Corinthians that this true. The resurrection and the receiving of glorified bodies are two separate things.

From that perspective, the last day was one literal day in which all that were dead in their sins were raised from that condition into eternal life. Both those who had died in Christ, the Old Testament saints, and those that were alive at that time were raised on the last day... one single literal last day.

People who came to Christ after the resurrection i.e. us, will experience that same resurrection when we come to Christ. In other words The Resurrection took place on one literal day and lasts until the end of time. In other words the 1st resurrection never ends.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 06:49:53
It is also very important to understand that verse 4 and verse 5 are both the 1st resurrection.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I would like to comment on verse 4.  The NASB has a better translation of that verse. (NASB)  Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The point being that John saw three groups; the first group was of those that sat upon the thrones.  I won't get into who those were now.  The second group was of the souls of those that had been martyred, the disembodied souls.  They are obviously physically dead.  The third group was of those which had not worshipped the beast, etc.  Note that here it is not the souls of those who had not worshipped the beast, etc. that John saw; rather it was whoever had not worshipped the beast etc.  In the second group "souls" is the subject of the phrase and "those" modifies "souls".  Not so the third group.  The subject is "those" or "whoever".  There is no necessity to infer that these were dead; this third group is not limited to the dead.  Therefore when speaking of the first resurrection, John is referring to both the dead and the living.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 08:03:25
The First Resurrection:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live (John 5:24-25).
Agreed.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 08:41:30
Red high light is mine for discussions....RB

Greetings Rob~I read this yesterday from you and marvel that you missed this truth concerning the two resurrections. The first and second resurrection does not happen on the last day~the GENERAL BODILY resurrection of all happens on the last day~and ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come, the other ones will perish after the final judgment in the lake of fire which IS the SECOND DEATH.

Now, did I misunderstand what you were saying, or did you not properly and distinctly divide the word of God?  As I said: "ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come"~these souls ONCE born again could NEVER die in the true sense of those words, even though they may die naturally they continue ON LIVING AND REIGNING WITH CHRIST in heaven until the thousand years are expired and then soon after that time, they shall receive their glorified bodies in the resurrection of the JUST and UNJUST on the last day. 

I'll keep going until I have addressed all posts. RB
How is it that there will be a general bodily resurrection when Paul describes the resurrection as the raising of the soul? Again I think this a mixing of the resurrection doctrine with the translation of our bodies doctrine. The Resurrection isn't the translation and the translation isn't the resurrection.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 09:34:09
How is it that there will be a general bodily resurrection when Paul describes the resurrection as the raising of the soul? Again I think this a mixing of the resurrection doctrine with the translation of our bodies doctrine. The Resurrection isn't the translation and the translation isn't the resurrection.
I think I agree with you.  However, what are you referring to with "the translation of our bodies doctrine"?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 11:07:00
I think I agree with you.  However, what are you referring to with "the translation of our bodies doctrine"?
I'm working on a reply to your previous post to me but I'll respond to this first so that you will know what I mean by the translation of our bodies.

Maybe translation is not the best word but what I'm talking about is the shedding of this old body and the receiving of the glorified body.

The OT saints died and went to Abraham's bosom with no body. When they were raised with Christ they received their new bodies. We on the other hand don't go to Abraham's bosom. When our earthly body dies, our souls go directly to heaven in our glorified bodies.

Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 11:38:28
That’s not scripture’s definition of a translation, Rob.

The single, lone example of a translation-type change of a human body was that of Enoch who never died; who “was translated that HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH” (Heb. 11:5).  He is the same individual as Melchizedek, who had “an endless life”, serving as priest of the most high God, and who Hebrews 7:8 said was STILL LIVING when that book was written.  His deathless existence as a priest served as the unique precedent for Christ’s deathless high priesthood, “made a priest after the order of Melchizedek”.

This is where 4WD’s ideas get snarled into a mess of thinking that Christ today has no  resurrected, glorified body form in heaven as our high priest.   He forgets the primary reason Hebrews 7 brings up the whole comparison between Melchizedek’s body which had an “endless life” and Christ’s post-resurrection body which also had an “endless life”, that “continueth ever” in an “unchangeable high priesthood”.

Hebrews 7:28 says that Christ the Son is “perfected FOREVERMORE”.  For Jesus to be “perfected forevermore” meant that His perfected, resurrected body form which came out of the grave and would never die again was retained for all time thereafter.

Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 12:30:55
I would like to comment on verse 4.  The NASB has a better translation of that verse. (NASB)  Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The point being that John saw three groups; the first group was of those that sat upon the thrones.  I won't get into who those were now.  The second group was of the souls of those that had been martyred, the disembodied souls.  They are obviously physically dead.  The third group was of those which had not worshipped the beast, etc.  Note that here it is not the souls of those who had not worshipped the beast, etc. that John saw; rather it was whoever had not worshipped the beast etc.  In the second group "souls" is the subject of the phrase and "those" modifies "souls".  Not so the third group.  The subject is "those" or "whoever".  There is no necessity to infer that these were dead; this third group is not limited to the dead.  Therefore when speaking of the first resurrection, John is referring to both the dead and the living.
I would argue that the NASB leads people to the wrong conclusion by saying "they came to life". That makes it sound as if the 1st resurrection is the resurrection of dead earthly bodies which goes against Paul's explanation of the soul being resurrected in the 1st resurrection.

The way I see those verses, there are two groups of people there. One massive group of those "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands".

And then another group that "lived not again until the thousand years were finished". Both of these groups are the first resurrection.

This also lines up with the Old Testament saints being raised with Christ... not their physical bodies, but them being redeemed, their sins covered, them being raised from death to life in the same way that we are raised from death to life at salvation.

I think verse 4 is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints and verse 5 is our resurrection when we come to Christ. Those verses in my opinion are the key to understand what the 1000 years are.

Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 12:56:12
Hebrews 7:28 says that Christ the Son is “perfected FOREVERMORE”.  For Jesus to be “perfected forevermore” meant that His perfected, resurrected body form which came out of the grave and would never die again was retained for all time thereafter.
That’s not scripture’s definition 3 Resurrection; that is yours.  The very idea that Jesus in His glorified state is in a human body form is pure speculation; and not a very good one.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 12:58:15
That’s not scripture’s definition of a translation, Rob.

The single, lone example of a translation-type change of a human body was that of Enoch who never died; who “was translated that HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH” (Heb. 11:5).  He is the same individual as Melchizedek, who had “an endless life”, serving as priest of the most high God, and who Hebrews 7:8 said was STILL LIVING when that book was written.  His deathless existence as a priest served as the unique precedent for Christ’s deathless high priesthood, “made a priest after the order of Melchizedek”.

This is where 4WD’s ideas get snarled into a mess of thinking that Christ today has no  resurrected, glorified body form in heaven as our high priest.   He forgets the primary reason Hebrews 7 brings up the whole comparison between Melchizedek’s body which had an “endless life” and Christ’s post-resurrection body which also had an “endless life”, that “continueth ever” in an “unchangeable high priesthood”.

Hebrews 7:28 says that Christ the Son is “perfected FOREVERMORE”.  For Jesus to be “perfected forevermore” meant that His perfected, resurrected body form which came out of the grave and would never die again was retained for all time thereafter.
Yes I agree translation isn't the best term but it is accurate in that translate means to change from one place, state, form, or appearance to another. But yes, I agree other terminology would have been better.

Enoch not dying is a myth and the bible doesn't support that idea. The bible says that Enoch didn't "see death", it doesn't say that Enoch's body never died, only that Enoch didn't see the death of his earthly body.

Further down in that chapter of Hebrews we are told that "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb 11:13). Enoch was taken out of his body and his body dropped dead and "went the way of all the earth".

In my opinion, Enoch being the 7th from Adam represents the perfected man, the man who's sins are covered by the blood of Christ. What happened to Enoch is the same thing that happens to ALL believers just prior to the death of this earthly body. This doctrine was also taught by Jesus. Any man who keeps the word of Christ will never SEE death.

Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 13:25:43
How is it that there will be a general bodily resurrection when Paul describes the resurrection as the raising of the soul? Again I think this a mixing of the resurrection doctrine with the translation of our bodies doctrine. The Resurrection isn't the translation and the translation isn't the resurrection.
Greetings again Rob~the rapture, the resurrection at the last trump, or our translation, or, being CAUGHT UP to meet Christ in the air, is ONE AND THE SAME DOCTRINE~all happening at the LAST TRUMP. It is the SAME EVENT.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 15:12-55~"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
We must read these slowly and carefully, and when we do, we shall see: The second resurrection is a bodily resurrection at Christ's coming, at the last trump when time shall be no more.

The first resurrection takes place in our souls and spirit when the Spirit of God spiritually resurrects us (Ephesians 2) from the first death to spiritual life in Jesus Christ sometime between our conception and before the death of our bodies~which bodies shall be changed into a spiritual body at the resurrection, or rapture when we are caught up to forever be with Christ. The rapture and the resurrection at the last day are one and the same. It is not that difficult to understand.

Enough for now on this point before moving on.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 13:32:21
Greetings again Rob~the rapture, the resurrection at the last trump, or our translation, or, being CAUGHT UP to meet Christ in the air, is ONE AND THE SAME DOCTRINE~all happening at the LAST TRUMP. It is the SAME EVENT.We must read these slowly and carefully, and when we do, we shall see: The second resurrection is a bodily resurrection at Christ's coming, at the last trump when time shall be no more.

The first resurrection takes place in our souls and spirit when the Spirit of God spiritually resurrects us (Ephesians 2) from the first death to spiritual life in Jesus Christ sometime between our conception and before the death of our bodies~which bodies shall be changed into a spiritual body at the resurrection, or rapture when we are caught up to forever be with Christ. The rapture and the resurrection at the last day are one and the same. It is not that difficult to understand.

Enough for now on this point before moving on.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate your thoughts.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 13:50:22
Your definition of “being made Perfect” is totally at odds with the way Hebrews 5:9 presents it.  You are presenting it as the saints’ perfect POSITION of righteousness before God.  That’s not how Jesus was described as “being made perfect” in Heb. 5:9.   Jesus, “being made perfect” (in His BODILY-resurrected state - not spiritually resurrected, because Jesus was never spiritually dead), was able to ascend to heaven in that glorified body to the Father on His resurrection day, and to become our divine / human high priest advocate in heaven that morning.  A priest after the deathless order of Melchizedek.
I'll be very brief. I agree with you on Hebrews 5:9 concerning Christ.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 13:17:56
We, too, just like the resurrected Christ, will have this changed state of our natural body into a perfected, incorruptible condition to complete our salvation inheritance.  It is not only the soul and spirit that Christ was sent to redeem.  He allowed His body to die physically so that He could also physically redeem our dead bodies out of the dust of the grave.  Nothing for the saints gets discarded or perishes - “not a hair of our head”, as Jesus promised the disciples.

The wicked dead, however, forfeits everything  in the resurrection to damnation / destruction.  For them, everything perishes.
100% agreed.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 13:17:56
And how can you say that Satan was DESTROYED as well as bound long ago, but that he still exists to rule over unbelievers?  Destroyed creatures have no existence whatever.  God reduced the celestial flesh of this formerly-anointed cherub to literal ashes upon the earth in the AD 70 conflagration in Jerusalem.   Ezekiel 28:18-19 promised this total destruction; “...and never shalt thou exist anymore.”  As did Isaiah 27:1, with God’s promise in that day to use His great and strong sword against the “crooked serpent” to “SLAY the dragon that is in the sea”.
There will be total destruction of Satan, but that will not be 100% completed until after the Great White Throne Judgment. He was bound at Christ's resurrection so that the gospel could go out into all the world of the Gentiles and after that is completed he shall be loosed for a season, and his destruction comes when he makes war against the CAMP OF THE SAINTS at the battle of Armageddon when God makes a great feast for the fowls of the air and invites them to a great supper, per Ezekiel 39, Christ, in Matthew 24, and John, in Revelation 19.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 13:17:56
This is why Joseph was commended for his faith when he gave a command concerning his BONES.  He knew his physical remains were going to be altered into a new renovated condition later on, and his command concerning his bones was a testimony to his faith in that future bodily-renovation process.

Job also gave testimony that after his “appointed time” of waiting in the grave, that God would remember him and have a desire for the work of His hands - Job’s physical remains - and that Job’s body would be “made again” when his “change” had come (Job 14:13-15).  Job was one of those OT saints who was waiting to bodily be “made perfect” together with the NT saints in Hebrews 12:40.  In the AD 70 second resurrection at Christ’s return.
Agree UNTIL you added your personal thoughts concerning 70 A.D. being the time of the 2nd resurrection, also is the time of Christ's coming, when the scriptures will not support such a doctrine.

 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 14:04:17
And I would bet that you, erroneously, believe that *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY is a physical body existing somewhere called heaven.
Why would you call this doctrine an error and even mocking the same? 4WD, Jesus left this world in a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTED BODY never to be destroyed. It is NOT a physical body but a SPIRITUAL BODY, that has spiritual powers to disappear and appear in a moment of time! It has power that is far beyond our ability to comprehend. He left this world IN THAT BODY and he shall so come as they saw him leave per Acts one.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 2:5~"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
There IS a MAN in heaven at God's right hand, OR, the HIGHEST PLACE of authority that can be given. All who have ever lived and died a child of God are WITH HIM even now. We could keep going, but enough for now on this point.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 15:24:21
Here is another interesting clue about the resurrection.
s touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,


Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Those verses are clearly saying that 1) God is their God and 2) God is not the God of the dead.


We know that their bodies were dead when Jesus said this. That means that "the resurrection of the dead" in those verses isn't referring to dead earthly bodies but instead it is referring to them being dead in their sins because Christ had not redeemed them yet.



One of the Pharisees errors was that they thought the resurrection was the resurrection of dead bodies and these verses are Jesus correcting them.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 17:37:17
I would argue that the NASB leads people to the wrong conclusion by saying "they came to life". That makes it sound as if the 1st resurrection is the resurrection of dead earthly bodies which goes against Paul's explanation of the soul being resurrected in the 1st resurrection.
A "soul" just means a person... which includes a body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 17:41:50
Why would you call this doctrine an error and even mocking the same? 4WD, Jesus left this world in a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTED BODY never to be destroyed. It is NOT a physical body but a SPIRITUAL BODY, that has spiritual powers to disappear and appear in a moment of time! It has power that is far beyond our ability to comprehend. He left this world IN THAT BODY and he shall so come as they saw him leave per Acts one. There IS a MAN in heaven at God's right hand, OR, the HIGHEST PLACE of authority that can be given. All who have ever lived and died a child of God are WITH HIM even now. We could keep going, but enough for now on this point.
You need to look at the Greek words a little more.

A "spiritual body" does not mean some sort of ethereal being inhabiting another dimension.  That idea is completely foreign to ancient Greek (or any other ancient language).  That's some modern science fiction.

Jarrod
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 03:22:37
You need to look at the Greek words a little more.

A "spiritual body" does not mean some sort of ethereal being inhabiting another dimension.  That idea is completely foreign to ancient Greek (or any other ancient language).  That's some modern science fiction.

Jarrod
Maybe you need to just read and believe the word of God in our English Bible given to us around four to five hundred years ago shortly after the invention of the printing press.
Quote
1st Corinthians 15:42-44~"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
What can this powerful, spiritual body do? It can just desire to be somewhere and it is there~by disappearing in one place and appearing in another place with a THOUGHT. Called it science fiction if you like, but as long as you do, then you will never come to the knowledge of the truth by mocking it.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Luke 24:13-31~"And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight."
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 20:19~"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Quote from: John
John 20:26~"And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you."
Just as Jesus' resurrected spiritual body could desire to be somewhere and just APPEAR, and vanished when finish.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 1:9-11~"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
He could have just as easy vanished in their sight and then appear in the heavens "far above all"~ that the James Webb Space Telescope could never see! Yet he chose to leave in his powerful, spiritual body to show us that he shall return in the same manner as he left 2000 years ago. Call it science fiction if you think it is and then wait and see for yourself, Mr. Thomas. 
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 22:29~Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 03:54:17
Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Those verses are clearly saying that 1) God is their God and 2) God is not the God of the dead.


We know that their bodies were dead when Jesus said this. That means that "the resurrection of the dead" in those verses isn't referring to dead earthly bodies but instead it is referring to them being dead in their sins because Christ had not redeemed them yet.

One of the Pharisees errors was that they thought the resurrection was the resurrection of dead bodies and these verses are Jesus correcting them.
Greetings again Rob~sir, I believe you are wrong and here's why: Jesus was not correcting a Pharisee doctrine in this place, but was refuting the false doctrine of the Sadducees who did not believe in spirits, nor a bodily resurrection~they taught death ended it all! By God saying that he was the God of Abraham PROVED that Abraham was LIVING even though Abraham had died and went to be with God, which Christ had called Abraham's bosom~which I understand to mean nothing more than "dying in the faith" as Abraham did being now with God and all of the spirits of just men who had been made perfect.
Quote from: Rob on: Yesterday at 15:24:21
We know that their bodies were dead when Jesus said this. That means that "the resurrection of the dead" in those verses isn't referring to dead earthly bodies but instead it is referring to them being dead in their sins because Christ had not redeemed them yet.
Rob, it is speaking of a future resurrection of our bodies~listen carefully:
Quote
Matthew 22:23-30~"The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,"
Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 04:50:40
Why would you call this doctrine an error and even mocking the same? 4WD, Jesus left this world in a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTED BODY never to be destroyed. It is NOT a physical body but a SPIRITUAL BODY, that has spiritual powers to disappear and appear in a moment of time! It has power that is far beyond our ability to comprehend. He left this world IN THAT BODY and he shall so come as they saw him leave per Acts one.
You have made an enormous assumption about what a spiritual body is.  RB, we don't really even understand very well what our own spirit is.  We certainly don't have any idea whatsoever what a "spiritual body" is.  We don't really even understand very well what our conscience is, let alone what our spirit is.  And you have assumed that the body of Jesus as He came out of the tomb was a spiritual body.  That is simply not true.  His earthly body was raised up; He testified to Thomas that what came out of the tomb was His old physical natural body with the holes in His hands and in His side (John 20:24-27).  His body, dead from the crucifixion, was raised up again.  As to appearing and disappearing, that is but another miracle that He could have done that before His death and may well have; for example, Luke 4:30 suggests that is what might have happened. Such a miracle was certainly not limited to the makeup of His body. 

As for leaving this world IN THAT BODY, you simply do not know that.  All that is recorded is that "as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9).   See also Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51. 

RB, I think that you, like so many, have anthropomorphized heaven and all the inhabitants of heaven, including angels and even God, the Father.  It is quite natural to do that since we have no experiential basis for anything other than that.  And, in truth, the Scriptures tend to do that also oftentimes in speaking about God.  But the idea that Jesus now exists in human form actually sitting on a throne in heaven is, I believe, pure nonsense.  Heaven is not a place; place is a physical entity just as is time. Place and time are both physical creations.  As I mentioned before, Jesus in His prayer in John 17 prayed "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (vs 5). Clearly that was not in physical human form.  His physical human form was the result of being born into a human body.  Hebrews says that He was made "for a little while lower than the angels" (Heb 2:7,9)  "For a little while" means, to me, that He is that no longer.

There is a lot more to be said about this, but that's enough for now.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 04:59:36
RB, speaking of Matthew 22:23-30 you said,
Rob, it is speaking of a future resurrection of our bodies~listen carefully: Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.
You failed to highlight the likely most significant phrase in that passage, namely, that  "in the resurrection they ..... are like angels in heaven"  Do you really believe that angels in heaven have bodies in the form of human beings?  I surely hope you do not.
 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 05:08:44
Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.
The Scriptures do not speak of a "bodily resurrection"; rather it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.  It also says, that the body that dies is not the body that is raised (1 Cor 15:35-37).
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 06:27:26
There is truly nothing new under the sun...

This debate between a bodily resurrection versus no resurrection of the human body is as old as the Pharisee versus Sadducee positions.  A disagreement that the Apostle Paul used to his advantage when he was brought to trial before them both.  As said in Acts 23:6, “But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees and the other part Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

The disagreement between the parties on this point was so volatile that the chief captain of the Romans thought they might pull Paul to pieces between them over this very question.  Not much has changed since then with the division over this doctrine.

Jesus Himself during His earthly ministry never told His disciples to discard all the teaching of the Pharisees.  He only cautioned them not to be hypocritical in their doing of the law, but that their teaching of the law at that time was correct.

Paul also on trial before Felix AGREED with the Pharisee position on the bodily resurrection.  “Having hope toward God, which THEY THEMSELVES ALSO WAIT FOR, that there is *ABOUT TO BE* (mellein) A RISING AGAIN OF THE DEAD, both of righteous and unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15- YLT).

Not only does this verse have Paul plainly identify the truth of the Pharisee’s expectation for a bodily resurrection, it pins down the fulfillment of that resurrection to a time IMMINENTLY NEAR in their first-century experience. 
As Acts 25:25 goes on further to say, “And as he reasoned concerning righteousness and self-control and THE JUDGMENT *ABOUT TO BE* (mellontos), Felix became afraid...”.   The judgment of those resurrected dead was on the very near horizon for those hearing Paul at that time, which terrified Felix, as well it should have.

This was the same coming hour of judgment for both the good and the evil that Christ spoke about in John 5:27-29.  Because Jesus was the “Son of MAN”, He (by right of continuing to share their human body form even after His resurrection and ascension to heaven) was therefore entitled to have “authority to execute judgment” over humanity in the resurrection. 

4WD, as to your comment that those who are resurrected from the dead are “equal to the angels”, the similarity between them in Luke 20:34-36 was being confined to the saints not being able to die anymore, nor to be in a married condition.  The elect angels in heaven are deathless, and do not marry.  This has nothing to do with negating a resurrected bodily form for the saints.

And we certainly DO have an idea of what a resurrected “spiritual body” looks like and how it functions.  Just study all the information about Christ’s tangible, post-resurrection form and His capabilities, AS WELL AS THE MATT. 27: 52-53 RESURRECTED SAINTS and ALL the other verses that speak about them - and there are more than you think.

What came out of Christ’s tomb was DEFINITELY His “spiritual”, glorified body form, as scripture testifies on more than one occasion.  Do you need those references?

As RB brought out earlier about the human body form of Christ sitting presently on His throne in heaven, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, THE *MAN* Christ Jesus.”  If you, 4WD, think that this is “pure nonsense” to have a human, resurrected body form sitting in heaven, then you have NO MEDIATOR to stand between you and God to hear your petitions and your prayers. 

You brought up that Christ was made for “a little while lower than the angels”.  This says absolutely nothing about Christ completely discarding His human form after that “little while”.  It was speaking of Christ temporarily submitting to sharing with humanity a RANK lower than the created angelic order of beings.  This was not a permanent condition for Christ OR humanity.  Humans themselves would eventually be judging angels in the next life, as Paul said in I Cor. 6:3.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 06:56:02
4WD, as to your comment that those who are resurrected from the dead are “equal to the angels”, the similarity between them in Luke 20:34-36 was being confined to the saints not being able to die anymore, nor to be in a married condition.  The elect angels in heaven are deathless, and do not marry.  This has nothing to do with negating a resurrected bodily form for the saints.
That there is a bodily resurrection is your eisegesis.  As I noted, Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead; he does not speak of the resurrection of the physical body.  In fact he states explicitly that the resurrection of the dead is not a bodily resurrection; rather it is a spiritual resurrection.  Your problem is that you cannot conceive of a spiritual "body" apart from a physical existence.  For you, Heaven is no less physical than is this physical universe.

Paul said, Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven(1 Cor 15:45-49). But, sadly, for you Jesus is still a man of the dust.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 07:05:18
No 4WD,

Christ in heaven today is STILL called a “MAN of heaven” in the verses you are bringing up.   A male human body in heaven in a glorified, deathless, incorruptible condition.  And I notice that you seem to avoid speaking about the very clear example of the First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints and their very visible, tangible existence.  They were “exhibit A” of the “First Resurrection” for what all resurrected saints would eventually likewise inherit.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 07:05:47
A "soul" just means a person... which includes a body.
Two different entities. The body is the vehicle that our soul experiences life in in this existence. Our souls depart from this body when we die.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 07:32:56
RB, speaking of Matthew 22:23-30 you said,You failed to highlight the likely most significant phrase in that passage, namely, that  "in the resurrection they ..... are like angels in heaven"  Do you really believe that angels in heaven have bodies in the form of human beings?  I surely hope you do not.
No, it's you that is missing the truth here~like the angels in heaven MEANING there is no physical sexual relationship among glorified saints~all earthly relationships between husband and wife cease to be in the world to come. Angels are created spirits, that will never change.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 07:38:02
The Scriptures do not speak of a "bodily resurrection"; rather it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.  It also says, that the body that dies is not the body that is raised (1 Cor 15:35-37).
4WD, you are confused, my friend. Let me come back later and address this. RB
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 07:50:06
RB, angels have a type of “celestial BODIES”, as I Cor. 15:40 describes them.  This is different  from that of “terrestrial bodies” such as you and I have now.  This is what made it possible for the “sons of God” to “leave their first estate” (of no marrying in heaven) to marry human women and have them bear a peculiar kind of hybrid children who were called “giants” in those days. 

This is why God said that His Spirit would not always strive with man because “he ALSO is flesh” (Gen. 6:3), just as the angels ALSO had a type of flesh form, but different from mankind - with all of these angels manifesting as males whenever they exhibited themselves to humans in scripture.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 10:48:53
4WD, you are confused, my friend. Let me come back later and address this. RB
I'll wait to see what you have to say, but it is not me that is confused.  I think neither you nor 3 Res have really stopped to think about what you are saying. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 11:07:06
Greetings again Rob~sir, I believe you are wrong and here's why: Jesus was not correcting a Pharisee doctrine in this place, but was refuting the false doctrine of the Sadducees who did not believe in spirits, nor a bodily resurrection~they taught death ended it all! By God saying that he was the God of Abraham PROVED that Abraham was LIVING even though Abraham had died and went to be with God, which Christ had called Abraham's bosom~which I understand to mean nothing more than "dying in the faith" as Abraham did being now with God and all of the spirits of just men who had been made perfect. Rob, it is speaking of a future resurrection of our bodies~listen carefully: Without a doubt, the "bodily resurrection" was the topic under discussion.
Yes, may bad on calling them Pharisees, they were Sadducees. Let me see if I can make my point more clearly.

There are two resurrection in this story.

This is the 1st resurrection, the resurrection of eternal life. Since God is their God and they died BEFORE Christ came, they died while they were still dead in their sins, so they will participate in the resurrection of eternal life - forgiveness of sin and the gift of eternal life in a glorified body.
Mat 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is the 2nd resurrection, the resurrection of eternal damnation. Since God is not their God, they are still dead in their sins and they will participate in the resurrection of the dead - eternal damnation.
Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

All peoples in this story have died physical deaths, so "the resurrection of the dead" has absolutely nothing to do with dead earthly bodies. God is not the God of the DEAD.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 11:10:25
No 4WD,

Christ in heaven today is STILL called a “MAN of heaven” in the verses you are bringing up.   A male human body in heaven in a glorified, deathless, incorruptible condition.  And I notice that you seem to avoid speaking about the very clear example of the First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints and their very visible, tangible existence.  They were “exhibit A” of the “First Resurrection” for what all resurrected saints would eventually likewise inherit.
Lazarus was raised by Jesus, he was not "resurrected";  those saints in Matthew 27: 52-53 were raised, not resurrected. There is a difference.

Did Lazarus need to eat and sleep after he was raised?  Was he flesh and blood after he was raised? Did he need to be clothed? How about those mentioned in Matthew 27?  In your view of things will I be taller than my wife in the resurrection?  Will we be composed of flesh and blood? Will the spiritual body be composed of atoms?  If not, then what?  Will we need to eat and sleep in the resurrection. If so, what will we eat?  Will we, like Adam in the Garden, have to tend to it?  Will we have to pick the fruit ourselves or will someone else do it for us.  Will we need clothes in the resurrection? Is Jesus wearing clothes in heaven?  Will we need toilet paper in the resurrection?  Will we have to walk on those streets paved will gold?  How will we get around from place to place?  Will we be able to see things?  What will it mean to see?  Here it means sensory nerves in the eye responding to photons.  Will there be photons in the resurrections.  Will there even be eyes in that "glorified, deathless, incorruptible" body? 

There are a lot more such questions that I think you have not even thought about.  You have conjured up some imagined being in the resurrection, not one wit of which is scriptural or even half way reasonable. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 11:43:24
It's very clear the passage here refers to the living soul and not the human body. I have 3 sets of verses posted below.

The first one is exactly as it's written in the bible.
The second has "it" substituted with "the human body".
The third has "it" substituted with "the living soul".

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The human body is sown in corruption; the human body is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  The human body is sown in dishonour; the human body is raised in glory: the human body is sown in weakness; the human body is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  The human body is sown a natural body; the human body is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The living soul is sown in corruption; the living soul is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  The living soul is sown in dishonour; the living soul is raised in glory: the living soul is sown in weakness; the living soul is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  The living soul is sown a natural body; the living soul is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 12:27:06
4WD, are you quite sure you aren’t a Full Preterist?  I read these exact same facetious questions from their side of the argument all the time.  And yes, there are answers for most of these questions in scripture for those with a genuine seeking soul.

Of course Lazarus was resurrected.  Ditto for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints.  There is no difference between the saints in the grave being “raised from the dead” and their being resurrected.  Same thing.  Same state.  Same result.  Once resurrected, neither Lazarus nor the Matthew 27 saints were physically capable of ever dying again, just as Christ “being RAISED FROM THE DEAD dieth no more ; death hath no more dominion over Him”, we are told.  Any saint “raised from the dead” also “dieth no more”. 

Jesus didn’t ever perform half-baked resurrections that needed a repeat performance to REALLY get the job done.  Not for Himself, nor for others in that generation.  It is appointed unto men to die the ONE TIME (Heb. 9:27) - not twice, as you are supposing.

Even Quadratus writing a defense of the church and the faith to the emperor Hadrian testified that these resurrections performed by Christ and the disciples were genuine miracles that remained alive, and were not the deceptive trickery of charlatans.

If the bodily resurrection is such an unimportant consideration that is useless and unnecessary, I wonder why you so vehemently oppose it, 4WD,  as if it was the ultimate heresy?  You remind me a bit of the atheists who spew such hatred against any concept of God being voiced.  If there is no God, it should be a matter of indifference to them whether someone worships a made-up God or not.  Yet they battle tooth and nail against a God that they say they don’t believe in.  It’s really not the case that they don’t believe there is a God.  Instinctively they know that there is.  They just hate Him, is all there is to it.

Why do you give every impression of hating the bodily resurrection so much?  I’m curious.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 15:40:19
I read these exact same facetious questions from their side of the argument all the time.  And yes, there are answers for most of these questions in scripture for those with a genuine seeking soul.
Perhaps you could supply those answers to those questions; or at least the references.
Quote
Of course Lazarus was resurrected.  Ditto for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints.  There is no difference between the saints in the grave being “raised from the dead” and their being resurrected.  Same thing.  Same state.  Same result.  Once resurrected, neither Lazarus nor the Matthew 27 saints were physically capable of ever dying again, just as Christ “being RAISED FROM THE DEAD dieth no more ; death hath no more dominion over Him”, we are told.  Any saint “raised from the dead” also “dieth no more”. 
So of course you have met some of them or know where they are now. rofl
Quote
If the bodily resurrection is such an unimportant consideration that is useless and unnecessary, I wonder why you so vehemently oppose it, 4WD,  as if it was the ultimate heresy? 
Probably not the ultimate heresy, but certainly a big one.  The bodily resurrection is not an unimportant consideration that is useless and unnecessary; it is simply a wrong consideration.
Quote
Why do you give every impression of hating the bodily resurrection so much?  I’m curious.
Hate it? No, I just oppose all such thinking that is wrong.  And it does terribly trivialize the magnificence and glory of the actual resurrection.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 18, 2020 - 16:23:36
4WD, are you quite sure you aren’t a Full Preterist?
I am an amillennialist. Preterism at any level in any form is heresy; and probably one of the more insidious heresies.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Sat Dec 19, 2020 - 04:37:41
RB, angels have a type of “celestial BODIES”, as I Cor. 15:40 describes them.  This is different  from that of “terrestrial bodies” such as you and I have now.
I must respectfully disagree, for a few reasons.

1st Corinthians 15:40 said not one word about angels having a celestial body, you are assuming that it is speaking of them. Angels are created spirits, that can take on a terrestrial body if God wills that to be so, and we know that he has from time to time~but we have no proof that they can without God's permission and power to allow them to do so. Whenever angels appeared in the OT, or even in the NT, they ALWAYS had a body by ALL INCLINATION that was terrestrial~except Jesus resurrected body, and even Jesus' body was not by its outward appearance, but we know what body he had after his resurrection~a glorified celestial body, which he STILL has, far above all, a place where no human has the power to see or even explore~ if so, then God would not be God and his power infinite.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #55 on: Yesterday at 07:50:06
This is what made it possible for the “sons of God” to “leave their first estate” (of no marrying in heaven) to marry human women and have them bear a peculiar kind of hybrid children who were called “giants” in those days.
The wild speculation of angels having sexual intercourse with human women to generate science fiction supermen should be ignored, based on this bizarre interpretation.  Having turned their ears away from sound doctrine and truth for fables, carnal Christians (NOT saying you are, but most are who follow such teachings) with itching ears have found teachers that will scratch their lusts with these farfetched tales of a super race (2nd Timothy 4:3-4). Rather than learn Christ, truth, and godliness, they want to be entertained with ridiculous propositions based on even more ridiculous interpretational methods. The texts above do not say or imply anything about angels, and the rest of the scripture is totally silent about such an incredible heaven-earth,  interracial sexual event, and its result.  It is the logical fallacy of begging the question or circular reasoning to assume that angels are intended by a few uses of “sons of God” for angels in Job 1:6; 2:1; and 38:7. There is no reason to connect these passages beyond the mere sound of their words, which is a presumptive mistake violating even elementary hermeneutics for rightly dividing scripture (Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15). Rather than leap into the black abyss of angel-human mongrels running around in dark forests or leading international conspiracies, let sane readers weigh the evidence for a  much simpler and Biblical explanation of the text. The scriptures themselves will prove that God in this passage ... identified the sin of  His adopted children (Seth’s descendants) marrying the reprobate children of the world (Cain’s and others’ descendants), thus bringing the Flood on the whole world, except for the family of Noah, which obtained mercy for his faithful obedience.

1. The sin was by men of flesh, not by angels,  for God in context and in consequence, said he would not always strive with fleshly man  (Genesis  6:3). The sin was taking daughters for marriage~not a sin of giving daughters in marriage.  This must be human males taking human females, for the sin was by fleshly men, not angels, and the sin was taking the wives.

2. The sin was by men of flesh, not by angels, for God’s consequential judgment came on humanity and other breathing creatures in  120  years, when  He drowned the human race by Noah’s Flood (Genesis 6:3). Nothing happened to any angels 120 years later. Angelic destruction and punishment were thousands of years away, as they confessed to theLord Christon earth.

3. Verse  6:3  compares two things that are flesh.  Since God is not flesh,  He is not compared.  Since angels are not flesh  (and not mentioned here),  they are not compared.  Are there comparable fleshly things in context? Sons of God and daughters of men! So much more could be added, but enough said on this subject.
 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Sat Dec 19, 2020 - 07:06:26
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Three points in this verse:

Things to glean from this.
Conclusion: Daniel 12:2 ties The Resurrection to a time when of MANY, but NOT ALL, dead bodies will rise. That happened here, at the resurrection of Christ.

Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 10:34:19
A "soul" just means a person... which includes a body.
This article (https://www.peterdehaan.com/christianity/body-soul-and-spirit/) gives a very good explanation of the spirit, soul and body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 15:16:03
Hi Rob,

Addressing your comment #64 above, where you link Daniel 12:2’s resurrection of “many” with that of Christ and the Matt. 27 resurrected saints.  That can’t be correct, because Daniel 12:2’s resurrection takes place following the great tribulation in Daniel 12:1, “such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time...”.  This tribulation in Daniel 12:1 is exactly the same as the “great tribulation” like no other that was supposed to be “IMMEDIATELY” followed by Christ’s coming return to gather His resurrected saints (Matt. 24:21&29-31).

There was NO “great tribulation” period like no other that was taking place before Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection with the Matt. 27 saints.

Conclusion: Daniel 12:2 can’t possibly be describing the “FIRST resurrection”.  It has to be the second.

Don’t trip over the word “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2 by presuming it doesn’t include all who had died up to that date.  Try comparing the same use of the word “MANY” (which really means ALL) as found in Romans  5:18 and 19.  “MANY were made sinners” by Adam’s offense, but it really means that “judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation”.  There were no exceptions to the “MANY” in that context. 

Same with the “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2.  It was really ALL who had died up to that point that were included.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 17:48:05
This article (https://www.peterdehaan.com/christianity/body-soul-and-spirit/) gives a very good explanation of the spirit, soul and body.
The article has it wrong.  It should be "I am a soul, I have a body and I have a spirit."  A soul is simply a living being. I will demonstrate that with scripture if you like.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 18:55:21
Hi Rob,

Addressing your comment #64 above, where you link Daniel 12:2’s resurrection of “many” with that of Christ and the Matt. 27 resurrected saints.  That can’t be correct, because Daniel 12:2’s resurrection takes place following the great tribulation in Daniel 12:1, “such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time...”.  This tribulation in Daniel 12:1 is exactly the same as the “great tribulation” like no other that was supposed to be “IMMEDIATELY” followed by Christ’s coming return to gather His resurrected saints (Matt. 24:21&29-31).

There was NO “great tribulation” period like no other that was taking place before Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection with the Matt. 27 saints.

Conclusion: Daniel 12:2 can’t possibly be describing the “FIRST resurrection”.  It has to be the second.

Don’t trip over the word “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2 by presuming it doesn’t include all who had died up to that date.  Try comparing the same use of the word “MANY” (which really means ALL) as found in Romans  5:18 and 19.  “MANY were made sinners” by Adam’s offense, but it really means that “judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation”.  There were no exceptions to the “MANY” in that context. 

Same with the “MANY” who awoke from the grave in Daniel 12:2.  It was really ALL who had died up to that point that were included.
As I mentioned before, and per 2 Corinthians, The Resurrection has nothing to do with the raising of dead bodies. This mixing of the two types of resurrections, dead earthly bodies and dead in sin and trespass in one verse is classic MO for God. God hides the truth in plain sight, but it takes believing every word of God exactly as it's written in order to glean the truth from scripture.... "many" means many, not all. To ignore that will keep the secret hidden.

The time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble happened when Christ took the kingdom from Israel, hence the time of Jacob's trouble. Consider what happened when Christ died. There was a great earthquake, the sun went dark at noon, the bones and bodies of the OT saints were unearthed. Three days later they stood to their feet and walked the streets of Jerusalem.

We are given even more insight as to what happened around the death and resurrection of Christ in Psalm 18. That was the start of GREAT tribulation and culminated with the total destruction of Israel in AD 70. Those things will never happen again.

Psa 18:4  The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. 
Psa 18:5  The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. 
Psa 18:6  In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. 
Psa 18:7  Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. 
Psa 18:8  There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. 
Psa 18:9  He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. 
Psa 18:10  And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. 
Psa 18:11  He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. 
Psa 18:12  At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. 
Psa 18:13  The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire. 
Psa 18:14  Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them. 
Psa 18:15  Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 18:57:37
The article has it wrong.  It should be "I am a soul, I have a body and I have a spirit."  A soul is simply a living being. I will demonstrate that with scripture if you like.
I can see your point. I think the most important thing to understand is that the body is not the soul and soul is not the body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 18:57:54
The Scriptures do not speak of a "bodily resurrection"; rather it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.  It also says, that the body that dies is not the body that is raised (1 Cor 15:35-37).
Resurrection of the dead, yes.  But the word "dead" is nekros - corpses.  That sounds corporeal to me.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 05:03:26
Resurrection of the dead, yes.  But the word "dead" is nekros - corpses.  That sounds corporeal to me.
Still it is not the body that is resurrected.  It is the dead person, not the dead body.  The Bible often uses the euphemistic description of one sleeping to describe the one being resurrected.  I think perhaps that is more than just a customary usage of biblical times.  It speaks to the condition, not the physical substance, of the person. It seems clear to me that Paul's description in 1 Corinthians 15:44-54 speaks very strongly against any suggestion of a "bodily" resurrection. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Jaime on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 05:19:50
If Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, wasn’t his bodily scars present and visible?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 05:46:56
Absolutely, Jaime, which Jesus used to prove to the disciples that “it is I MYSELF” that they were touching and handling.  That was no “euphemism” which they were holding on to.

Most definitely Christ’s “physical substance” was there in person in a glorified, incorruptible state, giving the lie to the Sadducee’s expectations.

Sadducee doctrine is still alive and well today it seems...
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 05:54:51
Absolutely, Jaime, which Jesus used to prove to the disciples that “it is I MYSELF” that they were touching and handling.  That was no “euphemism” which they were holding on to.

Most definitely Christ’s “physical substance” was there in person in a glorified, incorruptible state, giving the lie to the Sadducee’s expectations.

Sadducee doctrine is still alive and well today it seems...
The Sadducee doctrine was that there was no resurrection, no after life.  Who in all Christendom believes that today?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 06:10:54
Sadducee doctrine denied the resurrection, as  well as denying the existence of either angel or spirit.  Because spirit is listed SEPARATELY from the resurrection in this group of doctrines they denied, it distinguishes the resurrection of the person’s body form from their spirit as different topics.  The Sadducees denied it all. 

You yourself, 4WD, may agree that there is both angel and spirit, but by denying the resurrection of the bodies of the saints as well, you share in part of the Sadducees delusion.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 06:59:12
Sadducee doctrine denied the resurrection, as  well as denying the existence of either angel or spirit.  Because spirit is listed SEPARATELY from the resurrection in this group of doctrines they denied, it distinguishes the resurrection of the person’s body form from their spirit as different topics.  The Sadducees denied it all. 

You yourself, 4WD, may agree that there is both angel and spirit, but by denying the resurrection of the bodies of the saints as well, you share in part of the Sadducees delusion.
Climb off of that High Horse you are riding.  I deny not one word about the resurrection as recorded biblically nor about angels or spirit as recorded biblically. As I have said before, the doctrine of the resurrection is not about bringing a physical body back to life.  If that were the case, then one would have to have died in order to participate in the resurrection.  Paul denies that.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 07:59:09
Paul does NOT deny that.  And this has nothing to do with me sitting on a “high horse” as you suppose.  By your words, you are attempting to “make the heart of the righteous sad, whom God hath not made sad” by removing part of the FULL resurrection inheritance promised to the saints. 

Our resurrection to spiritual life plants the indwelling Spirit within.  This “seal of the Holy Spirit” Paul says is given to believers after believing the truth.  “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the EARNEST of our inheritance (arrabon  - a down payment of future full payment) UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.” ( Ephesians 1:13-14).

And we are told in Romans 8:24 just what the “redemption of the purchased possession” actually includes.  For those living saints who are “waiting for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION of OUR *BODY*.  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man SEETH, why doth he yet hope for?  But if we hope for what we SEE NOT” (before the bodily resurrection, we don’t yet see our full inheritance yet), “then do we with patience WAIT FOR IT.” 

So we are currently waiting patiently in a sealed, hopeful expectation for the eventual redemption of our body, when the Spirit that dwells in us “shall also quicken our MORTAL BODIES by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Romans 8:11).
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 10:15:36
Paul does NOT deny that.  And this has nothing to do with me sitting on a “high horse” as you suppose.  By your words, you are attempting to “make the heart of the righteous sad, whom God hath not made sad” by removing part of the FULL resurrection inheritance promised to the saints. 

Our resurrection to spiritual life plants the indwelling Spirit within.  This “seal of the Holy Spirit” Paul says is given to believers after believing the truth.  “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the EARNEST of our inheritance (arrabon  - a down payment of future full payment) UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.” ( Ephesians 1:13-14).

And we are told in Romans 8:24 just what the “redemption of the purchased possession” actually includes.  For those living saints who are “waiting for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION of OUR *BODY*.  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man SEETH, why doth he yet hope for?  But if we hope for what we SEE NOT” (before the bodily resurrection, we don’t yet see our full inheritance yet), “then do we with patience WAIT FOR IT.” 

So we are currently waiting patiently in a sealed, hopeful expectation for the eventual redemption of our body, when the Spirit that dwells in us “shall also quicken our MORTAL BODIES by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Romans 8:11).
Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Look at the context of verse 10. 
When Christ enters us, our bodies are not literally dead, this is not speaking of literal death. This is the same as saying "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me".

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Same context in verse 11. The mortal bodies (crucified with Christ) are raised because His spirit dwells within us.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 11:05:45
So we are currently waiting patiently in a sealed, hopeful expectation for the eventual redemption of our body, when the Spirit that dwells in us “shall also quicken our MORTAL BODIES by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Romans 8:11).

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The entire passage of Romans 7:14-8:13, including 8:11, is the message that Grace gives us the victory over sin. That is the message for our lives today not for our future resurrection to life with Jesus in Heaven.  It is important to understand what the indwelling Holy Spirit does for us now.

In fact the all-sufficiency of Grace that gives victory over sin in this life, not the next, is the over arching message of Romans, chapters 6,7, and 8. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 12:29:11
To be promised complete victory over sin and its effects, that necessarily includes eventual victory over ALL of sins effects.  Death of the human body’s physical form is one of the more obvious effects sin had on the human race.  To leave the corpses of the saints in the grave would be for Christ to concede defeat on that point.  Christ is not a loser on any front.  He’s an all-or-nothing victor, and will eventually redeem His ENTIRE purchased property, down to the last hair of our heads.

For anyone that thinks they can short-change the saints of their FULL resurrection experiences which they are patiently hoping and waiting for at present, they are attempting to rob God of the FULL measure of “praise to His glory” to which He is entitled.

Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 12:42:27
To be promised complete victory over sin and its effects, that necessarily includes eventual victory over ALL of sins effects.  Death of the human body’s physical form is one of the more obvious effects sin had on the human race.  To leave the corpses of the saints in the grave would be for Christ to concede defeat on that point.  Christ is not a loser on any front.  He’s an all-or-nothing victor, and will eventually redeem His ENTIRE purchased property, down to the last hair of our heads.

For anyone that thinks they can short-change the saints of their FULL resurrection experiences which they are patiently hoping and waiting for at present, they are attempting to rob God of the FULL measure of “praise to His glory” to which He is entitled.
Death was conquered long ago, believers in Christ are immortal at conversion. We will never experience death in any way shape or form.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 13:11:18
Death of the human body’s physical form is one of the more obvious effects sin had on the human race. 
No it is not.  Death of the human body's physical form is an integral part of the physical creation.  Physical death came to Adam and Eve because, in being ejected from the Garden, they no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which obviously was there to fend off physical death.  The death due to sin is spiritual (Ehp 2:1-2).  Read Genesis 3:22-23 carefully -- Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden...
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 14:19:50
Separation from God - the source of all life - caused death of both the spiritual AND physical elements.  Being IN CHRIST restores first the spiritual, and eventually the physical as well. 

Christ did not need to conquer death to restore His own spiritual standing, for He never lost that.  The power of the Spirit was used to raise Him from PHYSICAL death into that same body rendered incorruptible that “dieth no more”. 

It is this same power of the indwelling Spirit which raised us first into spiritual life.  The indwelling of that Spirit is the reassuring “earnest of the Spirit” that will likewise ALSO raise our physical forms into the same condition of Christ’s glorified body present in heaven today.

Rob is right in that Christ abolished death long ago.  We are each given eternal life at our spiritual birth.   And anyone living and believing in Him “shall not die FOREVER”, as John 12:26 says in the Interlinear. 

Job 19:25-27 testified  that, even though his insides would be consumed within him and worms would destroy his skin, yet in his flesh with his own eyes, and not another’s, he would literally see God.  His redeemer would “stand at the latter day upon the earth” as Zechariah 14:4-5 said He would do on the Mount of Olives, and gather all the bodily resurrected saints to return to heaven with Him. 

If this resurrection for the saints were only a spiritual one under consideration, what would be the point of specifying a particular location on this globe to which Christ would return to accomplish that resurrection?


Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 15:00:16
Everyone, good or bad, will die [except those alive when Christ returns] and everyone, good or bad, will be resurrected.  In that there is no distinction.  Physical death was always here, is here now and will be until the very end. Physical death was not and will not be destroyed, except by the fact that there will no longer be anyone to die.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 15:04:01
Death was conquered long ago, believers in Christ are immortal at conversion. We will never experience death in any way shape or form.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jesus was most definitely not speaking of physical death there.  Rob, I am convinced that you live and believe in Jesus; surely you do not believe that you will never die physically.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 16:30:36
Jesus was most definitely not speaking of physical death there.  Rob, I am convinced that you live and believe in Jesus; surely you do not believe that you will never die physically.
Oh yes, Jesus is most definitely talking about physical death. I will be like Enoch, and so will you, we will be snatched out of this body when it's time for us to go to the next world and this body will die. The only difference between us and Enoch is that Enoch was taken to Abraham's bosom without a glorified body but we will be changed into our new bodies in the twinkling of an eye. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The verses that most Christians call the "rapture" explains this process.

God is the God of the LIVING, not the dead. Once we are saved, we have nothing to do with death in any way shape or form, including the death of this earthly body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Mon Dec 21, 2020 - 22:10:47

Isa 26:18  We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
Isa 26:19  Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Isaiah is the speaker in verse 18, he speaks in terms of we, meaning he and his earthly kinsmen.
Who is the speaker in verse 19? This person speaks in terms of THY people instead of my people.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 06:04:02
Oh yes, Jesus is most definitely talking about physical death........


God is the God of the LIVING, not the dead. Once we are saved, we have nothing to do with death in any way shape or form, including the death of this earthly body.
What in the world are you talking about?  Of course you are going to die physically unless Jesus comes again before that happens.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 07:41:25
What in the world are you talking about?  Of course you are going to die physically unless Jesus comes again before that happens.
The earthly bodies of all men will die - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:". These earthly bodies are part of the 3d existence and like all 3d things, they will die and rot away.

In the bible the number 7 represents completion or perfection. Enoch was the 7th from Adam and this is why Enoch was chosen to illustrate what happens to all "perfected men" (God's people) when it comes time to leave this existence. There was nothing special about Enoch other than he was saved. There certainly wasn't anything special about the way he left this world... all believers exit from this existence the same way. Unfortunately this "leaving process" has been twisted into "the rapture", available only to a special set of Christians alive at the second coming.

The details of what happened to Enoch are given here.

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 

Enoch did not SEE death. If you want to know what happened to Enoch's body, you have to continue reading.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Vers 13 tells us what happened to Enoch's body.

This is why Jesus said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 08:01:14
Isa 26:18  We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
Isa 26:19  Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Isaiah is the speaker in verse 18, he speaks in terms of we, meaning he and his earthly kinsmen.
Who is the speaker in verse 19? This person speaks in terms of THY people instead of my people.
This is an important passage for the timing of The Resurrection guys.... it happened when the speaker of verse 19 rose.  ::smile::
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 09:39:12
Rob, you have me confused.  In John 11: 25-26 which you quoted in reply #85 what death do you think Jesus was speaking of when he said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die",?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 11:01:15
Rob, you have me confused.  In John 11: 25-26 which you quoted in reply #85 what death do you think Jesus was speaking of when he said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die",?
My apologies, I didn't mean to be confusing and I don't want to lose you on this point because it is another critical point that we must understand properly in order to understand other doctrines.

Jesus was speaking of death period. Death is a state of being dead in our sins and trespasses. "And sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. The death of the physical body is the end result of sin. So in my opinion, there aren't different types of death, but rather different stages of death.... birth being the beginning stage (the condition we are born into) and the death of the physical body being the last stage.

As believers we have been taken out of the "death cycle" if you will. We were raised from death to eternal life at salvation and death is no longer a part of the believers life. Yes, this earthly body will die but just like Enoch was taken out of his earthly body before that body died, so we will. We will never SEE death, we will never TASTE death, we will never EXPERIENCE death, we'll be taken before death happens.

Keep in mind that WE are SOULS and not earthly bodies. The earthly body is just the vehicle that our souls experience life in in this existence. Also, according to the bible, our soul is married to our flesh until we come to Christ. When that happens, Christ kills our first husband (think David killing Bathsheeba's husband) and then our soul is free that husband and his law, and is now free to marry another - Christ.

Our souls are then connected to the eternal life and law of our new husband rather than being connected to the old husband who is bound to the law of sin and death. The souls of people in that condition will partake in their husband's (the flesh) fate, they will see death, taste death and experience death.

All of that last part comes from here:

Rom 7:1  Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth
Rom 7:2  For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 
Rom 7:3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 
Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 

Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 12:14:44
Still it is not the body that is resurrected.
A spirit is immortal.  It does not die and therefore does not resurrect.

If not the body, what then is the resurrection?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 16:56:40
A spirit is immortal.  It does not die and therefore does not resurrect.

If not the body, what then is the resurrection?
WS, that is a very good question.  It is a question that is difficult to answer, though perhaps it is not that it is so difficult to answer; rather it is difficult to understand the answer.  That is because in the resurrection we are raised to a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44). The problem here is that we simply do not know, nor can we comprehend precisely, what a spiritual body is.  We have nothing in our experience to guide us to an understanding.  Not even Paul was ready to answer that question.  All he said about it was that it was not the body that died. Paul described it as being "sown",i.e., buried. Paul said, "what you sow is not the body that is to be" (1 Cor 15:37), . He says that there are earthly bodies and heavenly bodies and in the resurrection we will receive a heavenly body, that is, a spiritual body.  Imagine that spiritual body to be however you wish, but do not think of it as your revived earthly body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 17:04:58
The death of the physical body is the end result of sin.
No that is not correct.  The physical body of Adam didn't die because or when he sinned.  His physical body eventually succumbed to the natural death as created when he was kicked out of the garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which, if eaten, could have allowed him to live forever (Gen 3:22).
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 17:33:06
No that is not correct.  The physical body of Adam didn't die because or when he sinned.  His physical body eventually succumbed to the natural death as created when he was kicked out of the garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which, if eaten, could have allowed him to live forever (Gen 3:22).
Jas 1:15 (KJV)  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin, when it is FINISHED brings forth the death of this body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 22, 2020 - 18:47:22
Jas 1:15 (KJV)  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin, when it is FINISHED brings forth the death of this body.
That is, it seems to me, to be obvious that it is spiritual death as Paul speaks of it in Ephesians 2:1 and elsewhere.  For even for those of us who have been fully forgiven of our sins end up dying. Sin, almost by definition, is a product of the body, the flesh, that affects the spirit, not the body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 07:07:03
Still it is not the body that is resurrected.  It is the dead person, not the dead body.  The Bible often uses the euphemistic description of one sleeping to describe the one being resurrected.  I think perhaps that is more than just a customary usage of biblical times.  It speaks to the condition, not the physical substance, of the person. It seems clear to me that Paul's description in 1 Corinthians 15:44-54 speaks very strongly against any suggestion of a "bodily" resurrection.
I strongly suggest you get ahold of Dr Derek Prince's book "Foundation Series" or the update "Foundational Truths for Christian Living" and read the section on "Resurrection from the Dead." According to Hebrews 6.2 this is a foundational truth. 

Or you can watch him teach it from the pulpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Ic8Vm0uRg

He lays it out quite well that the resurrection MUST be physical.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 07:22:58
I strongly suggest you get ahold of Dr Derek Prince's book "Foundation Series" or the update "Foundational Truths for Christian Living" and read the section on "Resurrection from the Dead." According to Hebrews 6.2 this is a foundational truth. 

Or you can watch him teach it from the pulpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Ic8Vm0uRg

He lays it out quite well that the resurrection MUST be physical.
I have read and heard enough arguments about a physical resurrection.  I really don't need another one.  It is clear enough for me to read Paul's statements that the resurrection is not physical.  And by the way, Hebrews 6:2 says who will be resurrected, not what the result of the resurrection is.  The result of the resurrection is the specific subject of 1 Corinthians 15:35 and following.  And it is not in conflict in any way with Hebrews 6:2.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 07:40:50
That is, it seems to me, to be obvious that it is spiritual death as Paul speaks of it in Ephesians 2:1 and elsewhere.  For even for those of us who have been fully forgiven of our sins end up dying. Sin, almost by definition, is a product of the body, the flesh, that affects the spirit, not the body.
I really don't know what spiritual death is 4WD other than the state that we are born into. What is your view on Enoch, did Enoch's body die?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 09:07:45
I really don't know what spiritual death is 4WD other than the state that we are born into. What is your view on Enoch, did Enoch's body die?
Or Elijah?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 09:10:24
I have read and heard enough arguments about a physical resurrection.  I really don't need another one.  It is clear enough for me to read Paul's statements that the resurrection is not physical.  And by the way, Hebrews 6:2 says who will be resurrected, not what the result of the resurrection is.  The result of the resurrection is the specific subject of 1 Corinthians 15:35 and following.  And it is not in conflict in any way with Hebrews 6:2.
Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Was our Lord's resurrection spiritual or physical?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 09:12:15
Or Elijah?
Both of them Dave. I know more about Enoch than I do about Elijah. I've read where Elijah had written something after he had been taken up but I haven't looked into to that to see if it's true.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 09:17:27
I really don't know what spiritual death is 4WD other than the state that we are born into.
We are not born into spiritual death.  We become spiritually dead when we sin.  The only death we are born into is physical death.  Physical death is an integral part of the physical creation.  Nothing physical was created to exist in eternity.
What is your view on Enoch, did Enoch's body die?
No, Enoch's body did not die.  But beyond that we have no idea what actually became of Enoch's body.  Just as we have no idea what actually became of Jesus' body.  Jesus prayed   "Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5).  That glory was not in the form of the human being that He left heaven to take on.  I have no doubt at all that God, the Father, answered and honored Jesus' prayer.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 09:34:02
Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Was our Lord's resurrection spiritual or physical?

I believe that Jesus' true resurrection occurred at His ascension into heaven.  His body was raised on the early on the first day of the week following his death on the cross; His resurrection was at His ascension. That is the reason that in the Greek speaks of his raising [GR - ἔγερσις ,egersis] (Matt 27:53), not his resurrection [GR - ἀνάστασις, anastasis].

I believe His raising from the grave was physical, while His resurrection into heaven was spiritual.  There nothing in the whole of Scripture that would lead anyone to believe that there is anything in or about heaven that is physical.  So far as we have been told, only this created universe is physical.

Rob, I know that is not the standard view of things and I don't really expect you to agree with me.  But I believe my view is consistent with NT Scripture.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 10:13:21
There nothing in the whole of Scripture that would lead anyone to believe that there is anything in or about heaven that is physical.
That kinda sums up the ancient heresy of gnosticism.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 10:45:17
We are not born into spiritual death.  We become spiritually dead when we sin.  The only death we are born into is physical death.  Physical death is an integral part of the physical creation.  Nothing physical was created to exist in eternity.No, Enoch's body did not die.  But beyond that we have no idea what actually became of Enoch's body.  Just as we have no idea what actually became of Jesus' body.  Jesus prayed   "Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5).  That glory was not in the form of the human being that He left heaven to take on.  I have no doubt at all that God, the Father, answered and honored Jesus' prayer.
I'll come back to the spiritual death in another post.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 

"These all" is a list of people who:
How do you figure Enoch's body didn't die when he's on that list?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 11:08:13
I'll come back to the spiritual death in another post.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

"These all" is a list of people who:
  • Died in faith.
  • Did not receive the promises.
  • Were persuaded of the promises.
  • Confessed they were stranger and pilgrims on the earth.
How do you figure Enoch's body didn't die when he's on that list?
Genesis 5:22-24 and Hebrews 11:5.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 11:10:09
How do you figure Enoch's body didn't die when he's on that list?
You are thinking like a modern greek rather than a first century Jew.  The book of Hebrews was written BY a Jew to Jewish believers. 

"All" is taken more generally rather than necessarily applying to each individually. 

The late Rabbi Jonathan Sacks summed up the difference in Greek and Jewish culture and mindset (as evidenced in linguistic terms) is that Greeks divide things out for analysis, and Jews put things together for meaning.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 11:35:32
That kinda sums up the ancient heresy of gnosticism.
No, that is not quite right. However maybe Gnosticism isn't 100% wrong about everything.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 11:37:38
Reconcile these:

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Impossible under Aristotelian logic, but perfectly fine under Hebraic logic.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 11:41:56
No, that is not quite right. However maybe Gnosticism isn't 100% wrong about everything.
I said "kinda."  Yes it is not a perfect summary.

But gnosticim being right?  No way. Not even a little.  Yes I do understand that gnostic mindset has been in the church since the first century; and that where Paul and Peter use the phrase "TRUE knowledge" they are combating it.

There is nothing right in gnosticism.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 12:03:56
Genesis 5:22-24 and Hebrews 11:5.
Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Who is Enoch, the soul or Enoch's body?

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 
Same question here. But by far the most important part of that verse is "should not SEE death". It does not say that Enoch's body would not die.

I know you've had enough of this topic lol so I will let it go.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 12:18:11
You are thinking like a modern greek rather than a first century Jew.  The book of Hebrews was written BY a Jew to Jewish believers. 

"All" is taken more generally rather than necessarily applying to each individually. 

The late Rabbi Jonathan Sacks summed up the difference in Greek and Jewish culture and mindset (as evidenced in linguistic terms) is that Greeks divide things out for analysis, and Jews put things together for meaning.
Even in the English language and western culture there are many times when all doesn't literally mean all, it's a generalization. This verse is an example.

Mat_2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

The difference between this verse and the verse in Hebrews is that Hebrews isn't a generalization, it targets a very specific group of people - those who died, without receiving the promises as strangers on the earth. That description fits every single person who died before Christ came.

Also keep in mind that it doesn't say Enoch's body never died, it only says Enoch never saw his death. Again I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse, I have made my points and I can agree to disagree.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 12:20:17
Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Who is Enoch, the soul or Enoch's body?
Wrong question.  Again, based in the gnostic concept of dualism.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As reflected here in the words of Paul, the Jewish thought is that all parts of a person are equally him/her.  Spirit soul and body.  The whole person requires all the parts to be there. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 12:47:50
Reconcile these:

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Impossible under Aristotelian logic, but perfectly fine under Hebraic logic.
It's basically the same thing Jesus said, "he who liveth and believeth in me shall never die". Believers are taken out of these mortal bodies when it's time to leave this existence and the body goes the way of all the earth.

This is why I keep stressing Enoch. What happened to Enoch is the same thing that happens to all believers. Enoch was chosen to illustrate this because he was the 7th from Adam which represents the "perfect man", perfected because of Christ.

The rapture verses apply to all Christians, not just to a specific group of Christians alive at the "right time".
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 12:56:17
WS, that is a very good question.  It is a question that is difficult to answer, though perhaps it is not that it is so difficult to answer; rather it is difficult to understand the answer.  That is because in the resurrection we are raised to a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44). The problem here is that we simply do not know, nor can we comprehend precisely, what a spiritual body is.  We have nothing in our experience to guide us to an understanding.  Not even Paul was ready to answer that question.  All he said about it was that it was not the body that died. Paul described it as being "sown",i.e., buried. Paul said, "what you sow is not the body that is to be" (1 Cor 15:37), . He says that there are earthly bodies and heavenly bodies and in the resurrection we will receive a heavenly body, that is, a spiritual body.  Imagine that spiritual body to be however you wish, but do not think of it as your revived earthly body.
As far as I can tell, "resurrection" means a couple different things, depending on context.

Within the gospels, it seems to me to be a referent back to the Ezekiel 37 prophecy of dry bones.  Within the prophecy, Israel was "dead" but predicted to be "resurrected."  This re-instatement of Israel was accomplished through water baptism.  From the nations where Israel had once been scattered, converts were drawn, and adopted back into Israel, causing it to live and exist again, though it had been dead.  Ephesians 2 likewise draws out this doctrine... the Ephesians were said to have been "dead in sins" but now had been "quickened."  The first meaning of resurrection is what we typically call regeneration or conversion.

But in the passage you pointed out, 1Cor 15, Paul certainly deals with the question of a yet-future resurrection, that pertains to those who are already believers.  While I don't agree with your reading of the chapter, I can agree that it's a hard to understand.  I read the words translated natural and spiritual are Greek psychic and pneumatic, like this:

It is sown a psychic body; it is raised a pneumatic body.

This leads me to believe that what is described is not a different form of body, but rather a different mode of movement - a change in raison d'etre.

Jarrod
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 13:04:15
Wrong question.  Again, based in the gnostic concept of dualism.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As reflected here in the words of Paul, the Jewish thought is that all parts of a person are equally him/her.  Spirit soul and body.  The whole person requires all the parts to be there.
I think this verse is talking about us submitting each part of ourselves, the body, soul and sprits to the Lord. I don't believe this is defining "us" as the complete package the body, soul and spirit. In other words 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is a repeat of Mark 12:30.

Mar_12:30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 13:10:27
Quote
There nothing in the whole of Scripture that would lead anyone to believe that there is anything in or about heaven that is physical.
That kinda sums up the ancient heresy of gnosticism.
No, no it doesn't.  That sums up Neo-platonism.  While gnosticism and platonism are both Greek thought, they're actually opposed.

The leading idea of Platonism is abstraction - everything physical has a heavenly counterpart (the 'form'), and if one can understand that form, they can then apply that understanding to other situations, things, people, etc.

Gnosticism instead posits that knowledge is obtained experientially.  The gnostic initiate is guided through a series of events in which he is meant to experience the essence of a "god," often in sexual terms.

Platonism eventually leads to science and education.  Gnosticism leads to a proliferation of rituals and rites.

Jarrod
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 13:13:15
I read the words translated natural and spiritual are Greek psychic and pneumatic, like this:

It is sown a psychic body; it is raised a pneumatic body.

This leads me to believe that what is described is not a different form of body, but rather a different mode of movement - a change in raison d'etre.
To be honest, I don't know what you mean by that.  The spiritual is the non carnal, the non fleshly, the non bodily.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 13:28:25
That kinda sums up the ancient heresy of gnosticism.
No, no it doesn't.  That sums up Neo-platonism.  While gnosticism and platonism are both Greek thought, they're actually opposed.

The leading idea of Platonism is abstraction - everything physical has a heavenly counterpart (the 'form'), and if one can understand that form, they can then apply that understanding to other situations, things, people, etc.

Gnosticism instead posits that knowledge is obtained experientially.  The gnostic initiate is guided through a series of events in which he is meant to experience the essence of a "god," often in sexual terms.

Platonism eventually leads to science and education.  Gnosticism leads to a proliferation of rituals and rites.

Jarrod
the "knowledge" of gnosticism is that "Spirit" is good, while "physical" is evil.  It has led to all kinds of error in the church from extreme asceticism in some monastic orders all out hedonism in some other parts of the church.

the first century Jewish mindset is strongly flavored by Deut 6.5:

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

That was considered the whole person.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rella on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 13:32:46
Believers are taken out of these mortal bodies when it's time to leave this existence and the body goes the way of all the earth.



My heartfelt and deepest apologies to the one who was not expecting to see me here. This is a one time posting, of need.

Rob, you are correct. Paul said things like this. 2 Cor 5

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.



Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 13:47:27
We are resurrected to be judged IN THE BODY for what we did IN THE BODY.  And if we are not saved, the body gets thrown into hell:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 13:50:08
Quote
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Paul is describing the time between our physical life here and the resurrection where everyone gets judged.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 14:13:18
To be honest, I don't know what you mean by that.  The spiritual is the non carnal, the non fleshly, the non bodily.
I gave you the literal words.  The Greek word translated "natural" is psychikos - psychic.  The Greek word translated spiritual is pnuematikos - pneumatic.

These suggest that your definition is flawed.  Pneumatic does not mean "non-bodily."

Also, by that definition, a spiritual body would be a "non-bodily body."  (I think the checksum failed on that one.)
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 14:27:53
the "knowledge" of gnosticism is that "Spirit" is good, while "physical" is evil.  It has led to all kinds of error in the church from extreme asceticism in some monastic orders all out hedonism in some other parts of the church.

the first century Jewish mindset is strongly flavored by Deut 6.5:

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

That was considered the whole person.
I gave you a nuanced view of two competing Greek ideas, and you have immediately simplified it back to the point where it isn't even correct at a basic level.  Are you so set on teaching that you cannot learn?

Good vs. Evil is not a Greek idea. (It comes from Persia.)

Material vs Spiritual is a Greek idea.  It comes from platonism, not gnosticism.

The Bible contradicts Greek arguments against the idea that Christ came in the flesh, suffered, and died.  That Greek idea does not spring from the logic that everything material must be evil.  It springs from the idea that all gods are impassible.

Jarrod
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 23, 2020 - 17:33:22
My heartfelt and deepest apologies to the one who was not expecting to see me here. This is a one time posting, of need.

Rob, you are correct. Paul said things like this. 2 Cor 5

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Yes its very clear and I'm surprised there's debate against it. I was hoping to discuss how the resurrection being on the last day affects the 1000 year reign rather than discussing what the resurrection is.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 03:03:33
I really don't know what spiritual death is 4WD other than the state that we are born into. What is your view on Enoch, did Enoch's body die?
I'll give my thoughts since 4WD has spoken.  We have no record that Enoch's or Elijah's body tasted of death, other than dying with the Lord Jesus' death which we ALL DID. So many scriptures could be provided, for now, consider:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:19,20~"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
The law of God has judged every believer IN CHRIST and has found them to be RIGHTEOUS, nothing worthy of death, so, we all are dead to the law of God in this sense, it has NO POWER over us because of the spirit of HOLINESS we rendered unto the law IN CHRIST!

What we do not know is this: at what point did God shed them of their earthly bodies and cause them to be able to appear with him in glory~these things are hidden from us and we cannot particularly speak of them at the moment.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 04:30:30
I gave you the literal words.  The Greek word translated "natural" is psychikos - psychic.  The Greek word translated spiritual is pnuematikos - pneumatic.

These suggest that your definition is flawed.  Pneumatic does not mean "non-bodily."

Also, by that definition, a spiritual body would be a "non-bodily body."  (I think the checksum failed on that one.)
The definition of ψυχικός [psuchikos] which is translated as "natural" according to Strong's is

From G5590; sensitive that is, animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial nature): - natural, sensual.


And from Thayer it is

1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion


The definition of πνευματικός [pneumatikos] which is translated as "spiritual" from Strong's is

From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual.

and from Thayer

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
3a) of God the Holy Spirit
3b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing


I don't know the source for your translations/interpretations but you need a better one. I will stick with mine and the resulting meaning of the passage in 1 Corinthians.

Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 04:37:51
Yes its very clear and I'm surprised there's debate against it. I was hoping to discuss how the resurrection being on the last day affects the 1000 year reign rather than discussing what the resurrection is.
The 1000 year reign is now; it is the entire period between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.  That is the Amillennial view which I think is the correct view and the one which I subscribe to.  Thus the effect the resurrection on the last day affects the 1000 year reign by ending it.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 04:51:26
We are resurrected to be judged IN THE BODY for what we did IN THE BODY.  And if we are not saved, the body gets thrown into hell:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Neither of those say anything about being judged IN THE BODY.  Moreover, as Rella so aptly pointed out, the several verses leading up to verse 10 say, "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him" (2Co 5:6-9).

The clear implication from those verses is that when we appear at the judgment seat of Christ we will NOT be IN THE BODY.  Clearly from that passage to be at home with Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, is to be away from the body.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 09:33:35
I don't know the source for your translations/interpretations but you need a better one. I will stick with mine and the resulting meaning of the passage in 1 Corinthians.
My main source is the same as yours - Thayer's is a good lexicon.

I wonder why you think those definitions contradict what I said, though?
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 10:04:43
Because your words "psychic" and "pneumatic" do not appear Thayer or Strong's.  And those English words are not even close to the meaning implied in the Greek words.  In fact, psychic as given in the Dictionary.com presents just the opposite of "natural" implying more spiritual than natural;  and there is nothing implying the spiritual in the English word pneumatic or pneumatics whatsoever.  I'm not sure what sort of strange move you are trying to make here.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 11:02:31
Because your words "psychic" and "pneumatic" do not appear Thayer or Strong's.
Yes they do... they are literally the Greek words - ψυχικόν (psuchikon) and πνευματικόν (pneumatikon).

And those English words are not even close to the meaning implied in the Greek words.
Are you saying that the English words which are etymologically derived from these Greek words no longer are related to them in meaning?  I disagree...

In fact, psychic as given in the Dictionary.com presents just the opposite of "natural" implying more spiritual than natural;
Psychic - of or relating to the psyche/mind.

Try not to focus on the specialized modern meaning of "hucksters defrauding people by claiming special mental powers."

...and there is nothing implying the spiritual in the English word pneumatic or pneumatics whatsoever.
The English word pneumatic carries the same sense as the Greek word πνευματικ (pneumatik).  Both indicate that something is moved/powered by air.

A spiritual body is a body that is moved/powered by spirit (rather than psyche).

It doesn't actually have to be difficult.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 13:00:43
Wycliffes_Shillelagh,
All of that us such a reach that I can't believe that you have engaged in it.  I gave you both Strong's and Thayer and your claims are simply not there either explicitly or implicitly.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 13:17:46
Wycliffes_Shillelagh,

All of that us such a reach that I can't believe that you have engaged in it.  I gave you both Strong's and Thayer and your claims are simply not there either explicitly or implicitly.
Yeah, major reach to think that that psyche means psyche and pneumatic means pneumatic.

Good thing we have your clear definition of a "non-bodily" body to fall back on.

::eatinganarrow::
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 14:23:42
Yeah, major reach to think that that psyche means psyche and pneumatic means pneumatic.
We are not trying to determine the meaning of the English words psyche and pneumatic.  But you have tried to turn it into that. Not only weird, but manifestly devious and dishonest.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 15:02:02
We are not trying to determine the meaning of the English words psyche and pneumatic.  But you have tried to turn it into that. Not only weird, but manifestly devious and dishonest.
We're trying to determine the meaning of the GREEK words psychic and pneumatic.

There's nothing dishonest about pointing out that the English words that descended from them, have basically the same meanings.

Jarrod
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 24, 2020 - 16:34:22
We're trying to determine the meaning of the GREEK words psychic and pneumatic.

There's nothing dishonest about pointing out that the English words that descended from them, have basically the same meanings.

Jarrod
Psychic and pneumatic are NOT GREEK words they are ENGLISH words. But you know that and so does everyone else.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Rob on Fri Dec 25, 2020 - 07:15:30
I'll give my thoughts since 4WD has spoken.  We have no record that Enoch's or Elijah's body tasted of death, other than dying with the Lord Jesus' death which we ALL DID. So many scriptures could be provided, for now, consider:The law of God has judged every believer IN CHRIST and has found them to be RIGHTEOUS, nothing worthy of death, so, we all are dead to the law of God in this sense, it has NO POWER over us because of the spirit of HOLINESS we rendered unto the law IN CHRIST!

What we do not know is this: at what point did God shed them of their earthly bodies and cause them to be able to appear with him in glory~these things are hidden from us and we cannot particularly speak of them at the moment.
According to Hebrews Enoch shed his earthly bodily just after he was taken.  From other scripture we know that Enoch and all of the others who died in Christ before Christ came were taken to Abraham's bosom. Then from Daniel and Matthew we know that they received their glorified bodies on the last day that Christ was in the tomb -  at the resurrection of Christ.
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: DaveW on Fri Dec 25, 2020 - 12:57:31
The clear implication from those verses is that when we appear at the judgment seat of Christ we will NOT be IN THE BODY.  Clearly from that passage to be at home with Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, is to be away from the body.
There is no such "clear implication."  The clear implication is that we will be IN OUR BODIES. 
Title: Re: 1000 Year Reign
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Dec 25, 2020 - 13:12:55
Psychic and pneumatic are NOT GREEK words they are ENGLISH words. But you know that and so does everyone else.
You yourself literally posted the entries from Thayer's lexicon in this thread proving otherwise.