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Offline Rob

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1000 Year Reign
« on: Tue Dec 15, 2020 - 12:16:26 »
For those of you who believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is literal, as I used to believe also, how can it be literal when the resurrection of the just and unjust takes place on the "last day". But in Revelation it says the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years had expired. Am I missing something?

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

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1000 Year Reign
« on: Tue Dec 15, 2020 - 12:16:26 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #1 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 05:41:08 »
The First Resurrection:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live (John 5:24-25).

Offline Rob

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #2 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 05:56:40 »
The First Resurrection:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live (John 5:24-25).
Yes the first resurrection is the resurrection of everlasting life and the second resurrection is resurrection of damnation. Both of those resurrections are The Resurrection which happens on the Last Day.

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #3 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 06:57:05 »
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« Last Edit: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 06:59:32 by 4WD »

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #3 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 06:57:05 »
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Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #4 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 07:30:34 »
This wasn’t meant to be difficult.

There is a particular order to the bodily resurrection events, as found in I Cor. 15:23-24.  Christ was to be the unique “FIRST-begotten” one of the “FIRST-fruits” to ascend and stand before the Father in a resurrected body.  He had to make the way possible at His resurrection-day ascension for all His fellow siblings to follow “AFTERWARDS” in time. 

And Christ also raised to life again a group of ONLY SAINTS that, along with Himself, came up out of their graves which were located at Jerusalem in Matthew 27:52-53.   There were “MANY” of them that rose with Christ; a “MULTITUDE OF CAPTIVES”, as Ephesians 4:8 described them.  To be more precise, these “First-fruits” saints amounted to 144,000, as Rev. 7 and 14:4 enumerates the “FIRST-fruits” Matt. 27 Jewish saints of the “FIRST resurrection”.

“But every man in his own order: Christ the FIRST-FRUITS; AFTERWARD they that are Christ’s at His coming.  THEN the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God...”

To start with, this set of verses describes the “FIRST resurrection” event in AD 33.  The “AFTERWARD” part describes the very next  SECOND resurrection event, when “ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

The good and evil, (or the just and unjust), were TOGETHER to participate in the second resurrection event that Christ spoke of in John 5:28-29 - not separately in different events.

There is a reason Christ said that “the hour is coming AND NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall LIVE.”  At that time in Christ’s ministry, He had given the 12 disciples power to “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils...”, but ONLY in certain cities having “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” - NOT in Samaria or the cities of the Gentiles (Matt. 10:5-8).  These were single, sporadic cases of individual resurrections in Israel that Christ said “NOW IS” going on during His earthly ministry, but they were not yet the main group event of the “FIRST Resurrection” of Christ and His fellow “First-fruits” saints in AD 33.

And Rev. 20:5 tells us that the literal 1,000-years ENDED, or “EXPIRED” with “Christ the First-fruits” and His AD 33 “FIRST Resurrection”.  It was at that year when the “Rest of the dead came to life again”.  This word “rest” is more accurately translated “the REMNANT (loipoi) of the dead”, which is only a small fraction of “ALL that are in the graves”.  This small “remnant” amounted to the 144,000 “First-fruits” saints - in other words, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints that rose with Christ.  They were only a small fraction compared to “ALL that are in the graves” that would arise in the hour that Christ said was coming in John 5:28.




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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #4 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 07:30:34 »



Offline Rob

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #5 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 08:30:22 »
3 resurrections I think you have confused the raising of dead bodies with The Resurrection. According to Paul, The Resurrection is the resurrection of our souls not dead earthly bodies.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The "it" in those verses is the living soul that is sown into these corrupt earthly bodies. The thing that gets raised at the Resurrection is our souls, not our earthly bodies. This is the resurrection of life, Paul doesn't cover the resurrection of the damned in those verses.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 08:39:43 by Rob »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #6 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:32:11 »
Rob, the ENTIRE PACKAGE that makes up a person - body, spirit and soul - is eventually all included in the final resurrected state.  Not just our spirit and soul were purchased with Christ’s blood, but our bodies also which belong to Him as His purchased possession.  That’s why Paul said we are to glorify God with not only our spirit but our bodies also while in this life.  We are to present our entire being as a “living sacrifice”.

As saints, we are called “JOINT-HEIRS” with Christ.  That means all saints can expect to share in the very same inheritance - the very same bodily condition that Christ was raised in.  Which we are told was a tangible physical body that could never die again.  “Flesh and bone” that could be handled, but no blood, because the life of the flesh before death is in the blood.

This is why the world was given the clear example of the resurrected physical bodies of the 144,000 FIRST-fruits saints which were raised along with Christ in the “FIRST Resurrection” - those in Matthew 27:52-53.  They were “SEEN OF MANY” in the city of Jerusalem, and “remained” on earth after Christ’s ascension to serve as prophets, apostles, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the early church, as Ephesians 4 tells us.

The clear example of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints demonstrated more than simply a spiritual awakening to life - they were living, walking illustrations of the body forms of the saints rendered incorruptible, so that they can never die again, and so that they can stand face-to-face in God’s presence.

When Jesus was going to present all the resurrected, faultless children of the kingdom to God the Father with “exceeding great joy”, He was going to say “BEHOLD, I and the children whom thou hast given me.”  How in the world could God “BEHOLD” something that would have no visible, physical body form?

The case for the bodies of the wicked unregenerate who do NOT have the covering of Christ’s righteousness is to perish from existence forever.  God destroys them, both body and soul.  “The wicked shall not stand in the judgment...”.  They have no protection, and are utterly destroyed by the consuming fire of God’s holiness.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:39:05 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline 4WD

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #7 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:46:03 »
3 resurrections I think you have confused the raising of dead bodies with The Resurrection. According to Paul, The Resurrection is the resurrection of our souls not dead earthly bodies.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The "it" in those verses is the living soul that is sown into these corrupt earthly bodies. The thing that gets raised at the Resurrection is our souls, not our earthly bodies. This is the resurrection of life, Paul doesn't cover the resurrection of the damned in those verses.
You hit the nail on the head here Rob.  3 Resurrections is confused; and not just about dead bodies.  His Preterism has distorted just about everything about God's plan of salvation for the lost.  Paul says that  "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."; but here 3 Resurrections seems to think those are one and the same and that the natural body which is dead and gone will be revived [raised, resurrected]. That is not what Paul said; but no matter, 3 Resurrections wants  his old body back. He, like too many others, and not just Preterists, erroneously think the raised spiritual body will be just a "perfect" natural body.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #8 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:57:17 »
4WD, you are the one confused.  You are tossing out Philippians 3:21 entirely.  “Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY that it may be fashioned LIKE UNTO *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY.” 

This describes our own natural body that we have before our physical death that is itself to be “CHANGED” - NOT EX-CHANGED for another.  The natural body for a child of God is altered and renovated into a glorious, incorruptible state - JUST LIKE CHRIST’S, as we are promised.

If you look at all the features and capabilities of Christ’s resurrected form given to us in scripture, this is the very same that we can expect for ourselves in the final resurrected state.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #9 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 10:10:34 »
And to return more on target with the original post theme, it is NOT CHRIST whose reign was to be limited to a mere 1,000 years total, start to finish.  It is SATAN that had a limit put upon his deception of the nations for that literal thousand years that expired with the “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33.

After that AD 33 “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33, Satan was loosed again in great anger to wreak havoc on the “inhabitants of the earth and the sea” (Israel and the Gentile nations) during those days of the early church.  He and his demonic realm did their worst, but he was well aware that his time was indeed “short” until his scheduled destruction back then.

Paul promised the Roman believers that God would SOON crush Satan under their feet “shortly” after that.  Which means that Satan has been destroyed long ago, or the Apostle Paul was a liar. 

Offline Rob

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #10 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 10:53:51 »
3 Resurrections, I agree that all saints are joint heirs and will receive the same inheritance, one of those being a glorified body.

All of us are born in a fallen state, we are dead in our sins and trespasses against God. The Old Testament saints died in that condition because Christ had not yet paid for their redemption. The day Christ rose from the dead, their sins were forgiven and they were raised from that state to the state of being made right in the eyes of God.

Since they died prior to Christ coming, they were still dead in their sins and trespass and could not enter into heaven. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the promised seed, Christ, came and paid their redemption. When their redemption was purchased, they were then legally permitted to receive their inheritance.... And they did receive it.

Hebrews tells us that ALL saints are made perfect at the same time. If they weren't made perfect at the resurrection, then we as believers after the resurrection, aren't made perfect either. Perfect is our standing in Christ, not our perfect bodies.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 


Offline Rob

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #11 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 11:16:10 »
You hit the nail on the head here Rob.  3 Resurrections is confused; and not just about dead bodies.  His Preterism has distorted just about everything about God's plan of salvation for the lost.  Paul says that  "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."; but here 3 Resurrections seems to think those are one and the same and that the natural body which is dead and gone will be revived [raised, resurrected]. That is not what Paul said; but no matter, 3 Resurrections wants  his old body back. He, like too many others, and not just Preterists, erroneously think the raised spiritual body will be just a "perfect" natural body.
It's impossible to understand The Resurrection, the millennial kingdom and the rapture without understanding that the resurrection has nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #12 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 11:37:05 »
4WD, you are the one confused.  You are tossing out Philippians 3:21 entirely.  “Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY that it may be fashioned LIKE UNTO *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY.” 

This describes our own natural body that we have before our physical death that is itself to be “CHANGED” - NOT EX-CHANGED for another.  The natural body for a child of God is altered and renovated into a glorious, incorruptible state - JUST LIKE CHRIST’S, as we are promised.

If you look at all the features and capabilities of Christ’s resurrected form given to us in scripture, this is the very same that we can expect for ourselves in the final resurrected state.
I agree that Philippians 3:21 does sound like a remake of the old earthly body. But I think we have to view this scripture in light of 1 Corinthians 15. In first Corinthians 15 it's clearly presented that the soul is that which gets a new body.

Also in verse 37 it is clear that that which is sown is BARE GRAIN which I think refers to the genetics of the seed because verse 38 says that God gave the BARE GRAIN a body as it pleased him.

1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 
1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

With that taken into consideration, Phillipians 3:21 would be read as "who shall change our (the soul's) vile body, that it (the new body) will be fashioned like unto his glorious body.

Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I think that's the only way to reconcile those two werves but I am open for debate on it.

Offline Rob

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #13 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 11:52:07 »
And to return more on target with the original post theme, it is NOT CHRIST whose reign was to be limited to a mere 1,000 years total, start to finish.  It is SATAN that had a limit put upon his deception of the nations for that literal thousand years that expired with the “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33.

After that AD 33 “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33, Satan was loosed again in great anger to wreak havoc on the “inhabitants of the earth and the sea” (Israel and the Gentile nations) during those days of the early church.  He and his demonic realm did their worst, but he was well aware that his time was indeed “short” until his scheduled destruction back then.

Paul promised the Roman believers that God would SOON crush Satan under their feet “shortly” after that.  Which means that Satan has been destroyed long ago, or the Apostle Paul was a liar.
I agree that Satan was destroyed and bound long ago, but Satan is only bound in the lives of believers, not in unbelievers.... that is what the millennial kingdom is, life without Satan ruling over us.

Offline RB

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #14 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 13:01:59 »
Just marking this thread so as to post in the morning.  RB

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #15 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 13:17:56 »
A couple points Rob,

Your definition of “being made Perfect” is totally at odds with the way Hebrews 5:9 presents it.  You are presenting it as the saints’ perfect POSITION of righteousness before God.  That’s not how Jesus was described as “being made perfect” in Heb. 5:9.   Jesus, “being made perfect” (in His BODILY-resurrected state - not spiritually resurrected, because Jesus was never spiritually dead), was able to ascend to heaven in that glorified body to the Father on His resurrection day, and to become our divine / human high priest advocate in heaven that morning.  A priest after the deathless order of Melchizedek.

We, too, just like the resurrected Christ, will have this changed state of our natural body into a perfected, incorruptible condition to complete our salvation inheritance.  It is not only the soul and spirit that Christ was sent to redeem.  He allowed His body to die physically so that He could also physically redeem our dead bodies out of the dust of the grave.  Nothing for the saints gets discarded or perishes - “not a hair of our head”, as Jesus promised the disciples.

The wicked dead, however, forfeits everything  in the resurrection to damnation / destruction.  For them, everything perishes.

And how can you say that Satan was DESTROYED as well as bound long ago, but that he still exists to rule over unbelievers?  Destroyed creatures have no existence whatever.  God reduced the celestial flesh of this formerly-anointed cherub to literal ashes upon the earth in the AD 70 conflagration in Jerusalem.   Ezekiel 28:18-19 promised this total destruction; “...and never shalt thou exist anymore.”  As did Isaiah 27:1, with God’s promise in that day to use His great and strong sword against the “crooked serpent” to “SLAY the dragon that is in the sea”. 

And your concept of the millennial kingdom does not include Rev. 20:5&7’s EXPIRATION DATE it had at the time the “FIRST resurrection” occurred in AD 33.  That Rev. 20 millennium of Satan’s binding had an actual stopping point on the calendar. 

And you are still emphasizing an EX-CHANGE  of one discarded body for another totally new one.  It’s NOT an exchange we are promised; it’s called a “CHANGE” for that same dead body to be renovated into an incorruptible state. 

This is why Joseph was commended for his faith when he gave a command concerning his BONES.  He knew his physical remains were going to be altered into a new renovated condition later on, and his command concerning his bones was a testimony to his faith in that future bodily-renovation process.

Job also gave testimony that after his “appointed time” of waiting in the grave, that God would remember him and have a desire for the work of His hands - Job’s physical remains - and that Job’s body would be “made again” when his “change” had come (Job 14:13-15).  Job was one of those OT saints who was waiting to bodily be “made perfect” together with the NT saints in Hebrews 12:40.  In the AD 70 second resurrection at Christ’s return.

Offline Rob

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #16 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:02:10 »
3 Resurrections I appreciate the effort in your previous post and all of those are excellent points for debate but we are getting further from the topic of the thread. I apologize, I believe I lead us off track.

The purpose of this thread is to show that the 1000 year reign can't be literal because The Resurrection is a one time event takes place on the last day.

The resurrection of life, also called the 1st resurrection, is on the last day.
Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The resurrection of the unjust, also on the last day.
Joh_12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The Resurrection - one event on the last day where the just are raised to everlasting life and the unjust are raised to everlasting contempt.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #17 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:08:55 »
It is also very important to understand that verse 4 and verse 5 are both the 1st resurrection.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Offline 4WD

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #18 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:11:04 »
4WD, you are the one confused.  You are tossing out Philippians 3:21 entirely.  “Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY that it may be fashioned LIKE UNTO *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY.” 
And I would bet that you, erroneously, believe that *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY is a physical body existing somewhere called heaven.

Just as a side note;  everywhere in the NT when it speaks of the resurrection the Greek word that is used is ἀνάστασις [anastasis] except when it is speaking of the physical raising of Jesus after His crucifixion.  Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.   There the Greek word that is used is is ἔγερσις [egersis].  If you read carefully, nowhere is it ever specifically stated that the Jesus' time between His rising out of the tomb and his ascension into heaven is referred to as an ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection. I would argue that Jesus' ἔγερσις [egersis] "resurrection" and His ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection are not the same. I would further argue, as supported by scripture, that our resurrection will not be a physical ἔγερσις [egersis] raising from the dead but rather it will be spiritual ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #19 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 14:27:17 »
And I would bet that you, erroneously, believe that *HIS* GLORIOUS BODY is a physical body existing somewhere called heaven.

Just as a side note;  everywhere in the NT when it speaks of the resurrection the Greek word that is used is ἀνάστασις [anastasis] except when it is speaking of the physical raising of Jesus after His crucifixion.  Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.   There the Greek word that is used is is ἔγερσις [egersis].  If you read carefully, nowhere is it ever specifically stated that the Jesus' time between His rising out of the tomb and his ascension into heaven is referred to as an ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection. I would argue that Jesus' ἔγερσις [egersis] "resurrection" and His ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection are not the same. I would further argue, as supported by scripture, that our resurrection will not be a physical ἔγερσις [egersis] raising from the dead but rather it will be spiritual ἀνάστασις [anastasis] resurrection.
That's good info, I don't know Greek but I suspected that Jesus' resurrection was different. What is the difference between the two resurrections - egersis and anastasis?

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #20 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 16:50:17 »
4WD, I happen to agree with the scripture evidence in Hebrews 7:24-25 that the resurrected, glorified body of Christ “CONTINUETH EVER” because of His “unchangeable priesthood”.  “HE EVER LIVETH to make intercession” for us in that unchangeable priestly form that is “passed into the heavens”. 

You cannot have a representative priest for the human race that does not share their human form.  Jesus is the human / divine bridge that makes communication between us and the Father possible; the “daysman between us, that can lay a hand on us both”as Job once described it.   As our high priest, Jesus is STILL “made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest.” (Heb. 2:17).

He is STILL being called “The Son of Man” at His return in Matt. 24:27, as well as the title “The Son of God”, meaning He still retains that glorified, resurrected human / divine form at His return(s).

As touching the difference you are putting between a resurrection (anistemi) compared with a resurrection (egeiro), those terms do NOT discriminate between a physical and spiritual type of resurrection.  They are distinguished from one another because “egeiro” can be either an INTRANSITIVE or a TRANSITIVE verb, and “anistemi” is mainly INTRANSITIVE.

To put it in layman’s terms, an intransitive resurrection is performed on a passive receiver (you and I are raised from the dead - both spiritually and physically - by the Spirit’s power acting upon us).  In contrast, one who resurrects in the transitive sense actively transfers resurrection to a recipient. 

Jesus’ resurrection is described by BOTH terms.  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by God (intransitive example).  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit (another intransitive example).  And finally, there are verses that say Jesus raised Himself from the dead (a transitive verb example).

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #21 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 17:47:35 »
4WD, I happen to agree with the scripture evidence in Hebrews 7:24-25 that the resurrected, glorified body of Christ “CONTINUETH EVER” because of His “unchangeable priesthood”.  “HE EVER LIVETH to make intercession” for us in that unchangeable priestly form that is “passed into the heavens”. 

You cannot have a representative priest for the human race that does not share their human form.  Jesus is the human / divine bridge that makes communication between us and the Father possible; the “daysman between us, that can lay a hand on us both”as Job once described it.   As our high priest, Jesus is STILL “made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest.” (Heb. 2:17).

He is STILL being called “The Son of Man” at His return in Matt. 24:27, as well as the title “The Son of God”, meaning He still retains that glorified, resurrected human / divine form at His return(s).

As touching the difference you are putting between a resurrection (anistemi) compared with a resurrection (egeiro), those terms do NOT discriminate between a physical and spiritual type of resurrection.  They are distinguished from one another because “egeiro” can be either an INTRANSITIVE or a TRANSITIVE verb, and “anistemi” is mainly INTRANSITIVE.

To put it in layman’s terms, an intransitive resurrection is performed on a passive receiver (you and I are raised from the dead - both spiritually and physically - by the Spirit’s power acting upon us).  In contrast, one who resurrects in the transitive sense actively transfers resurrection to a recipient. 

Jesus’ resurrection is described by BOTH terms.  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by God (intransitive example).  There are verses that say Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit (another intransitive example).  And finally, there are verses that say Jesus raised Himself from the dead (a transitive verb example).
There is so much eisegesis in that post that I simply reject it.  But eisegesis is so typical of you.  I will come back to it tomorrow if I get time.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #22 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 18:10:34 »
Hey again Rob,

I’ve no argument that Rev. 20:4-5 is describing the “FIRST Resurrection”.  But it’s not a “one and only” resurrection at the last day.  A “FIRST” resurrection of necessity demands at least a SECOND group event that follows in order of time, as laid out in I Cor. 15:23. 

And we know that “Christ the First-fruits” of necessity MUST have preceded all other group resurrections.  No one could be resurrected and then ascend to heaven in their glorified bodies until Jesus had first ascended and become the “Firstborn” one from the “First Resurrection” event in AD 33. 

The “FIRST-fruits” (both Christ and the 144,000) = The “FIRST Resurrection”, which occurred simultaneously with the EXPIRATION of the Rev. 20 millennium.  It was a literal thousand years composed of a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem.  Starting with Solomon’s temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC, and lasting until AD 33 when Christ laid Himself down as the “chief cornerstone” of the spiritual temple not made with hands.

And the “last day” with its accompanying second resurrection was “at hand” in Peter’s days, because he said “the end of all things is at hand” for those he was writing to (I Peter 4:7).

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #23 on: Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 18:18:40 »
4WD, It seems fairly typical that nothing I write based on scripture ever finds acceptance with you.  Fortunately, that’s not my ultimate goal to please men.   “To my own Master I stand or fall”, as Paul would say. 

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #24 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 03:49:04 »
For those of you who believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is literal, as I used to believe also, how can it be literal when the resurrection of the just and unjust takes place on the "last day". But in Revelation it says the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years had expired. Am I missing something?

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I want to jump in and add some thoughts.

I would not say that you are missing something as far as saying the 1000 years is not to be taken literal especially so in a book of prophecy where we MUST interpret scriptures with scriptures to see the spiritual truth written for spiritually-minded children of God. We have a hint in Revelation 20:1-3 that this chapter is to be interpreted spiritually using the word of God for our understanding by comparing scripture with scriptures, here a little and there a little, etc.
Quote
Revelation 20:1-3~And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
We read the scriptures literally and THEN seek for it spiritual meaning from the same.

Really, does anyone believe a spirit can be lock up using a chain and a key? Of course not, so we must seek help from the word of God for our understanding so as not to shame ourselves before those who understand how to get a biblical answer that has a perfect flow from start to finish. 

1000 Year Reign can be interpreted by using PLAIN SCRIPTURES from God's witness of the truth.

The question at hand is, "does the 1000 year reign spoken of in Revelation chapter 20, mean that Christ is going to come and reign on this earth for a literal 1000 years after the Tribulation?" This theory is taught by a great many Theologians, but the question is, can it be verified by the scriptures themselves. And the answer is, No! The whole idea is contradictory when we consider all of the pertinent scriptures which are used to justify this belief. Nowhere is this doctrine explicitly mentioned in scripture, it is based solely on the misunderstanding or private interpretation of a few select verses.

We need to consider this (the great tribulation that is STRICTLY spiritual in nature) and 1000 year reign for they go hand in hand. No where does it say God will rapture the Church before the tribulation! In fact, the Lord says just the opposite. He says the Church will not be taken out of the world until the end of the world. He says the rapture is at "The Last day" and "The Last Trumpet". These ideas of a pre-tribulation rapture and an earthly reign of Christ are built upon an unsound foundation that will not stand the test of scripture. Let's keep moving since there's a lot of ground to cover.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 04:10:40 by RB »

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #25 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 04:05:03 »
Yes, the first resurrection is the resurrection of everlasting life and the second resurrection is resurrection of damnation. Both of those resurrections are The Resurrection which happens on the Last Day.

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Red high light is mine for discussions....RB

Greetings Rob~I read this yesterday from you and marvel that you missed this truth concerning the two resurrections. The first and second resurrection does not happen on the last day~the GENERAL BODILY resurrection of all happens on the last day~and ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come, the other ones will perish after the final judgment in the lake of fire which IS the SECOND DEATH.

Now, did I misunderstand what you were saying, or did you not properly and distinctly divide the word of God?  As I said: "ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come"~these souls ONCE born again could NEVER die in the true sense of those words, even though they may die naturally they continue ON LIVING AND REIGNING WITH CHRIST in heaven until the thousand years are expired and then soon after that time, they shall receive their glorified bodies in the resurrection of the JUST and UNJUST on the last day. 

I'll keep going until I have addressed all posts. RB

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #26 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 06:04:17 »
4WD, It seems fairly typical that nothing I write based on scripture ever finds acceptance with you.  Fortunately, that’s not my ultimate goal to please men.   “To my own Master I stand or fall”, as Paul would say.
But so much of what you post is not based on scripture; but instead is based on your own eisegesis of scripture.  For example, you said,
4WD, I happen to agree with the scripture evidence in Hebrews 7:24-25 that the resurrected, glorified body of Christ “CONTINUETH EVER” because of His “unchangeable priesthood”.  “HE EVER LIVETH to make intercession” for us in that unchangeable priestly form that is “passed into the heavens”.
But Hebrews 7:24-25 doesn't say anything about "the resurrected, glorified body of Christ ".  I assume that you inferred that from the statement that "He continues forever" and/or "He always lives". But neither of those necessarily has reference to Jesus physical earthly human body.  The concept of heaven, God's abode where Jesus now exists seated at the right hand of God, being a realm of physical existence is truly weird. Jesus own prayer for Himself would suggest that is not the case.  John 17:5  And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.   He did not have a glorified body before the world existed.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #27 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 06:48:28 »
Hey again Rob,

I’ve no argument that Rev. 20:4-5 is describing the “FIRST Resurrection”.  But it’s not a “one and only” resurrection at the last day.  A “FIRST” resurrection of necessity demands at least a SECOND group event that follows in order of time, as laid out in I Cor. 15:23. 

And we know that “Christ the First-fruits” of necessity MUST have preceded all other group resurrections.  No one could be resurrected and then ascend to heaven in their glorified bodies until Jesus had first ascended and become the “Firstborn” one from the “First Resurrection” event in AD 33. 

The “FIRST-fruits” (both Christ and the 144,000) = The “FIRST Resurrection”, which occurred simultaneously with the EXPIRATION of the Rev. 20 millennium.  It was a literal thousand years composed of a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem.  Starting with Solomon’s temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC, and lasting until AD 33 when Christ laid Himself down as the “chief cornerstone” of the spiritual temple not made with hands.

And the “last day” with its accompanying second resurrection was “at hand” in Peter’s days, because he said “the end of all things is at hand” for those he was writing to (I Peter 4:7).
I'm coming at this from the perspective that The Resurrection is the raising of souls and not the raising of dead earthly bodies. I have to come at it from that perspective because Paul was very clear in Corinthians that this true. The resurrection and the receiving of glorified bodies are two separate things.

From that perspective, the last day was one literal day in which all that were dead in their sins were raised from that condition into eternal life. Both those who had died in Christ, the Old Testament saints, and those that were alive at that time were raised on the last day... one single literal last day.

People who came to Christ after the resurrection i.e. us, will experience that same resurrection when we come to Christ. In other words The Resurrection took place on one literal day and lasts until the end of time. In other words the 1st resurrection never ends.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #28 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 06:49:53 »
It is also very important to understand that verse 4 and verse 5 are both the 1st resurrection.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I would like to comment on verse 4.  The NASB has a better translation of that verse. (NASB)  Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The point being that John saw three groups; the first group was of those that sat upon the thrones.  I won't get into who those were now.  The second group was of the souls of those that had been martyred, the disembodied souls.  They are obviously physically dead.  The third group was of those which had not worshipped the beast, etc.  Note that here it is not the souls of those who had not worshipped the beast, etc. that John saw; rather it was whoever had not worshipped the beast etc.  In the second group "souls" is the subject of the phrase and "those" modifies "souls".  Not so the third group.  The subject is "those" or "whoever".  There is no necessity to infer that these were dead; this third group is not limited to the dead.  Therefore when speaking of the first resurrection, John is referring to both the dead and the living.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 09:38:11 by 4WD »

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #29 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 08:03:25 »
The First Resurrection:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live (John 5:24-25).
Agreed.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #30 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 08:41:30 »
Red high light is mine for discussions....RB

Greetings Rob~I read this yesterday from you and marvel that you missed this truth concerning the two resurrections. The first and second resurrection does not happen on the last day~the GENERAL BODILY resurrection of all happens on the last day~and ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come, the other ones will perish after the final judgment in the lake of fire which IS the SECOND DEATH.

Now, did I misunderstand what you were saying, or did you not properly and distinctly divide the word of God?  As I said: "ONLY those who had experienced the first resurrection which is when one is born again by the Spirit of God, will they be raised to enjoy everlasting life in the world to come"~these souls ONCE born again could NEVER die in the true sense of those words, even though they may die naturally they continue ON LIVING AND REIGNING WITH CHRIST in heaven until the thousand years are expired and then soon after that time, they shall receive their glorified bodies in the resurrection of the JUST and UNJUST on the last day. 

I'll keep going until I have addressed all posts. RB
How is it that there will be a general bodily resurrection when Paul describes the resurrection as the raising of the soul? Again I think this a mixing of the resurrection doctrine with the translation of our bodies doctrine. The Resurrection isn't the translation and the translation isn't the resurrection.

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #31 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 09:34:09 »
How is it that there will be a general bodily resurrection when Paul describes the resurrection as the raising of the soul? Again I think this a mixing of the resurrection doctrine with the translation of our bodies doctrine. The Resurrection isn't the translation and the translation isn't the resurrection.
I think I agree with you.  However, what are you referring to with "the translation of our bodies doctrine"?

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #32 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 11:07:00 »
I think I agree with you.  However, what are you referring to with "the translation of our bodies doctrine"?
I'm working on a reply to your previous post to me but I'll respond to this first so that you will know what I mean by the translation of our bodies.

Maybe translation is not the best word but what I'm talking about is the shedding of this old body and the receiving of the glorified body.

The OT saints died and went to Abraham's bosom with no body. When they were raised with Christ they received their new bodies. We on the other hand don't go to Abraham's bosom. When our earthly body dies, our souls go directly to heaven in our glorified bodies.

« Last Edit: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 11:13:04 by Rob »

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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #33 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 11:38:28 »
That’s not scripture’s definition of a translation, Rob.

The single, lone example of a translation-type change of a human body was that of Enoch who never died; who “was translated that HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH” (Heb. 11:5).  He is the same individual as Melchizedek, who had “an endless life”, serving as priest of the most high God, and who Hebrews 7:8 said was STILL LIVING when that book was written.  His deathless existence as a priest served as the unique precedent for Christ’s deathless high priesthood, “made a priest after the order of Melchizedek”.

This is where 4WD’s ideas get snarled into a mess of thinking that Christ today has no  resurrected, glorified body form in heaven as our high priest.   He forgets the primary reason Hebrews 7 brings up the whole comparison between Melchizedek’s body which had an “endless life” and Christ’s post-resurrection body which also had an “endless life”, that “continueth ever” in an “unchangeable high priesthood”.

Hebrews 7:28 says that Christ the Son is “perfected FOREVERMORE”.  For Jesus to be “perfected forevermore” meant that His perfected, resurrected body form which came out of the grave and would never die again was retained for all time thereafter.


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Re: 1000 Year Reign
« Reply #34 on: Thu Dec 17, 2020 - 12:30:55 »
I would like to comment on verse 4.  The NASB has a better translation of that verse. (NASB)  Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The point being that John saw three groups; the first group was of those that sat upon the thrones.  I won't get into who those were now.  The second group was of the souls of those that had been martyred, the disembodied souls.  They are obviously physically dead.  The third group was of those which had not worshipped the beast, etc.  Note that here it is not the souls of those who had not worshipped the beast, etc. that John saw; rather it was whoever had not worshipped the beast etc.  In the second group "souls" is the subject of the phrase and "those" modifies "souls".  Not so the third group.  The subject is "those" or "whoever".  There is no necessity to infer that these were dead; this third group is not limited to the dead.  Therefore when speaking of the first resurrection, John is referring to both the dead and the living.
I would argue that the NASB leads people to the wrong conclusion by saying "they came to life". That makes it sound as if the 1st resurrection is the resurrection of dead earthly bodies which goes against Paul's explanation of the soul being resurrected in the 1st resurrection.

The way I see those verses, there are two groups of people there. One massive group of those "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands".

And then another group that "lived not again until the thousand years were finished". Both of these groups are the first resurrection.

This also lines up with the Old Testament saints being raised with Christ... not their physical bodies, but them being redeemed, their sins covered, them being raised from death to life in the same way that we are raised from death to life at salvation.

I think verse 4 is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints and verse 5 is our resurrection when we come to Christ. Those verses in my opinion are the key to understand what the 1000 years are.


 

     
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