GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: 144,000  (Read 20700 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
144,000
« on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 08:56:51 »
Dear All, this seems to be a topic with a lot of interpretations, any thoughts?

Thanks and God bless

Curt

144,000 in Rev.14:1
Who are the 144,000?
144,000 having God’s name written on their foreheads. (The forehead is where all the important decisions are made and where your religion is.) (How do we know Gods name?) In Mark 14:36 (this is where Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemane, before He was crucified.) He prayed Abba, Father and asked His Father, that He would not have to go through the dreadful experience of the cross. Abba is His Fathers name. In Gal. 4:6 the Bible tells us, we are sons and daughters of God and that we call God Abba Father. If you write the word Sabbath and take out the “S

Christian Forums and Message Board

144,000
« on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 08:56:51 »

Offline Truth Files

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 10:11:00 »
curt,

Here is a cut from my website on the subject:

Revelation
7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

These 144,000 sealed ethnic Israelites are a unique group composed of 12,000 from each of 12 tribes of the children of Israel. They are ethnic Israelites of the nation.

Many theories have been presented describing this group. Some Gentile Christian denominations have identified themselves as the 144,000 and there are those who advocate a general application which includes all believers.

Neither of these interpretations is correct. The 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of national Israel, they are believers, and they will be present during the coming tribulation period .... the Lord's hour of trial against an unbelieving world. [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

These will be the first converts [fruits] of the Lord's during the coming tribulation period of His wrath. The link to their Israelite ancestry is given describing the practice of idolatry that prevailed where the kings of Israel [like Solomon] were lead to worship foreign gods by women .... these 144,000 will not follow this course during the tribulation period, but will be loyal to the Lord.

Their mission will begin in Israel at the beginning of the tribulation period [the 70th week decreed for the nation] and will reach other Middle East nations and beyond.

By the middle of the week they are seen in Jerusalem with the Lord [He will be present, but not seen by the world until the end of the period] and they will take the gospel to the whole world during the tribulation period. [Revelation 14:6-7]

There are a few direct explanations about this group, their purpose, and their activities appearing in the Book of Revelation, but no where else in scripture. These servants of the Lord are sealed with His protection.

Their sealing will include protection against the attacks by the angels of the abyss during the 5th trumpet judgment and all other dangers during the 70th week including the Lord's judgments and those instigated by satan and his agents. [Revelation 9:4]

They will also be the first fruits [first believers] of the tribulation period and will enter the Lord's millennial kingdom as surviving mortals. [Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 14]

The 144,000 Israelites are not to be confused with the church [the 24 elders and the great multitude] which is composed of both Israelite and Gentile believers [Old and New Testament periods]. These will dwell in heaven during the Lord's coming time of judgment upon the earth [Revelation 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 19:1-14; and 20:4 (those on thrones)]

Both of these groups will be protected from the judgments of the tribulation as the result of the Lord's immortalization of the church and the sealing of the 144,000 mortal Israelites on the earth. The Lord will enter the material world unexpectedly as a thief and execute both of these events. [1Corinthians 15; 1Thessalonians 4; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 18:4; 7:1]

The 144,000 sealed Israelites will be set apart from all other unsealed mortals who will experience the tribulation. They will be the only living believers [first fruits of redemption] on earth at the beginning of the 70th week just after the church is taken by the Lord to heaven.

There will be other unsealed humans who will become believers during the tribulation and, but not many [most humans will not repent]. The Lord will resurrect those believers who die physically by beheading [martyred] at the end of the tribulation period. [Revelation 20:4 (those beheaded)]

All believers who remain alive [survive the tribulation] will enter His earthly kingdom as mortals. He will gather and sort out these believers from all of the humans left in the nations of the world just after the coming tribulation period. [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

The "elect" will consist of believing Israelites [His brethren] and the sheep will be the believing Gentiles. These will all be mortals who will enter and populate His worldwide millennial kingdom which will last for 1,000 years.

The rest of the survivors will be unbelieving [goats] who will not enter the kingdom, but will be cast off into the outer darkness.

All unbelievers will be resurrected [the second type of resurrection to the second death] to face judgment and elimination. Their names will not be found in the Lord's book of life. [Revelation 20:6-15]

This is the resurrection that leads to the second death. The first resurrection type is the resurrection to life. The Lord was the first to experience this type of resurrection, the church will be next at His second advent to immortalize the believer, and the tribulation martyrs will be resurrected at the end of the period. [1Corinthians 15:22-58; Revelation 20:4 (those beheaded)]

There will also be a believing Israelite remnant who will be living in the land of Israel during Israel's defeat at the hands of the little horn [satan's beast].

It is these who will flee into the Jordanian wilderness when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place [temple mount].

Their escape route will be along a great rift valley that is formed by the Lords who will split the Mount of Olives to the north and to the south. This event is recorded in Zechariah 14, Matthew 24:15-16, and Revelation 12.

These will be kept from the reaches of Abaddon-Apollyon [the beast in the little horn] whose armies will occupy and rule the nation of Israel for 42 months [1,260 days]. [Revelation 11:2; 13:5]

This Israelite remnant will receive the Lord as their Messiah during the tribulation period and will enter and populate His coming kingdom on the earth as mortals at the end of the end of it.

This remnant is not to be confused with the sealed 144,000 Israelites who will spread the gospel of the kingdom. The 144,000 will be active during the entire tribulation period. First to Israel, and then to the entire world. [Matthew 24:14; Revelation 14:1-7]

A more comprehensive understanding of the purpose of the 144,000 Israelites can be developed by researching Revelation for the Lord's continuous provision of individual salvation during the tribulation.

The coming tribulation period [the Lord's hour of trial] experienced by Israel and the nations will be a very confusing and perplexing time with regard to the events that will be taking place which will be very difficult for humans to understand and experience.

The Lord will provide a very strong measure of the truth about what is happening in proportion to the confusion, deception, and the judgments during the period.

The first seal that He opens is the symbol of the white horse which depicts one of six themes [seals] that will be characteristic of the conditions of the tribulation period. [Revelation 6:1-2]

The symbol of the white horse represents an ongoing communication of the truth about the Lord, personal salvation, and His soon coming 1,000 year earthly kingdom which will emerge in the wake of the destruction of human self rule.

This activity will begin at the onset of the Lord's hour of trial and will continue throughout the tribulation period. The white horse is the symbol of the Lord's conquering salvation.

The 144,000 will be a powerful force that the Lord will use to continue spreading the gospel of the kingdom and of individual salvation to an unbelieving world during the tribulation period.

They will also serve as an inspiration for those believers who will be present during the tribulation period. Many of these will be martyred for their faith. [Revelation 6:9; 14:13; 15:2; 20:4 (those beheaded)]

An angel will appear having the everlasting gospel that will be preached to all that live on the earth during the coming tribulation period. This angel will appear at the beginning of the period and the 144,000 Israelites will begin their mission in Israel and then will reach the whole world. [Matthew 24:14; Revelation 7; 14]

The message will be to fear and worship the Lord, that His judgment is in process, and that His visible appearance to establish His Kingdom is at hand. He said that this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world just before His visible return.

The 144,000 are seen by John on Mount Zion [in Jerusalem] with the Lord [the world will not see Him until just after the tribulation period is over]. Their sealing will take place just before the beginning of the tribulation period.

The Lord will be present during the entire period of His hour of trial [He will not be seen by he world during this time frame] and He will lead the 144,000. He opens the seals, controls all of the judgment events of the period, and His visible appearance to the world is scheduled immediately after the tribulation period.

The Lord can have an invisible presence or a visible presence in relation to His involvement with the material world. Scripture records events and evidence of this unique ability at His first coming. He will function in the same manner during His involvement at the time of the end.

He can be present and invisible to humans during one encounter, and visible and present in another. He will be present and invisible during the tribulation period, and then visible to the world when He appears at the end of it.

Heaven is not a place in some far off corner of outer space .... it is a state of existence which allows for optional entry or exit of the material universe.

There is a great deal of confusion concerning the event of the Lord returning from heaven visibly at the end of the tribulation period. Some interpret this as nullifying the possibility of His invisible presence for involvement in the events of His hour of trial that will lead up to His visible appearance at the end of it.

His first action will be His unannounced and sudden invisible presence as a "thief" to immortalize dead and living believers of today's church. This action will take place just before the day of the Lord begins .... His judgment of an unbelieving world, and beyond.

The day of The Lord is not just one 24 hour day when He appears visibly to the world. His "day" will include bringing man's day [human rule] to a close at the end of this present age first .... and then He will establish millennial kingdom on the earth.

The primary mission of the 144,000 Israelites will be to communicate the message of personal salvation and the Lord's soon coming earthly kingdom.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: 144,000
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 10:11:00 »

Offline Seriousseeker

  • 60 Years In Christ
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 18:34:51 »
Dear All, this seems to be a topic with a lot of interpretations, any thoughts?

Thanks and God bless

Curt

144,000 in Rev.14:1
Who are the 144,000?
144,000 having God’s name written on their foreheads. (The forehead is where all the important decisions are made and where your religion is.) (How do we know Gods name?) In Mark 14:36 (this is where Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemane, before He was crucified.) He prayed Abba, Father and asked His Father, that He would not have to go through the dreadful experience of the cross. Abba is His Fathers name. In Gal. 4:6 the Bible tells us, we are sons and daughters of God and that we call God Abba Father. If you write the word Sabbath and take out the “S

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 20:15:39 »
Dear Truth files, what is your website, this is really involved, I read through but must say it is quite complicated, I am afraid I didn't get the line complete. This doesn't seem like it should be so complicated, because the Bible says that the 144,000 will be with the Lamb (Christ) whether so ever He goes. That to me seems to be after life here on earth, as we now know it, is over. The Bible to me should be simpler, and easy to understand. Please let me know.

God bless

Curt

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: 144,000
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 20:15:39 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Truth Files

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #4 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 04:54:09 »
curt,

Sometimes it takes an in depth look at various subjects of prophecy in order to teach the correct rendering

I am a prophecy teacher and my classes require a comprehensive over view of all of the related prophetic visions of the Bible prophets and the Lord's projections

Put simply, the 144,000 will be the first believers of the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth

They will be mortal ethnic Israelites who will preach the gospel of the soon coming kingdom of the Lord's millennial reign on the earth

They will do this under His protection so that they cannot be harmed during their mission

He will direct their mission and they will be aware of it just like the Apostles during the first century .... but the world will not see Him until His hour [time] of trial and judgment is over

The Lord's salvation is relatively simple to grasp and this is the bottom line

Without this gift by His grace through faith nothing else matters including the understanding of the prophetic visions of the Bible prophets

But, He has given us a more sure word of prophecy for our understanding [2Peter 1:16-21]

It takes time and effort on our part to study His prophetic word and as we do this we can understand  better what we believe and why we believe it ..... this position makes for one to be a more effective witness to a lost world

If you have further questions on this subject I will respond

My site is:
http://www.prophecy1.blogspot.com/

« Last Edit: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 05:55:03 by Truth Files »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: 144,000
« Reply #4 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 04:54:09 »



Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #5 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 15:43:16 »
Dear Serious seeker, thanks, I would like to know where in the New Testament the disciples were worshiping on Sunday in commemoration of the resurrection of Our Lord? I haven't ever found anything like that? The only thing I have found was when the apostle Paul was preaching all night Sat. night and the young man fell and was killed and Paul raised him from the dead. Acts 20:6-12. The Biblical record reports that days begin with evening and ends with day, see Gen. 1:5 etc. and even the Paul writing references midnight and lamps in the upper chamber. This seems to me as a Sat. night and going into Sunday a.m., which would seem to agree with the desciples practice of worship on Saturday, Acts 17:2. and that they still used the Sabbath as a day of worship and kept it Holy, Acts 1:12. This seems to me to be a more plausible explanation? What do you think?

Thanks God bless 

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #6 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 16:06:54 »
Dear, Truth Files, thanks. I looked at your site, a lot of info. Where do you teach? Are you teaching in a seminary? If I am understanding you correctly, there are a class of immortal people (israelites) living on the earth along with a class of mortal israelites as well and then there are the rest of the people. I am not sure about this idea of Christ taking the Church to heaven. If He did that then who are His people in Rev. 18:4, the who  are the overcomers referenced in rev. 21:7? It seems to me that we are all going to be here when Jesus comes, Rev 22:11-14, if we were all going to be in heaven, then why would Rev22:20 refer to Jesus coming quickly and Jesus says He is coming quickly???  Thanks God bless

Offline Truth Files

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #7 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 19:16:58 »
Curt,

I teach selective individual groups who gather in homes and ask me to teach .... most studies have about 15 to 25 in the group and there are various denominations present

I have no afflilation with any organized religion, but do pastor a non-denominational church of about 500 .... I also teach other pastors who want a more in depth understanding of Bible prophecy

Not sure about you comment regarding Israel ..... mortals and immortals?

There will be three distinct groupings of Israel during the coming 70th week decreed [same time frame as the coming tribulation period] for the nation

All of them mortals .... those that believe, those that do not believe, and those who will be specifically protected from harm during the period

These will include the believing 144000 sealed and those believing who will flee Israel when the nation is invaded and occupied by satan's beast and his followers

Todays church of true believers will be immortlized just before the Lord's coming period of judgment .... both those asleep in death and those living at the time [your reference to Revelation 18:4 is this event which will occur just before the great city of MBG is burned with fire .... this destruction will be the first judgment of the tribulation period [Revelation 8:8, 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]]

The 144000 will be the first believers of the tribulation period

Others of Israel and the nations [gentiles] will beome believers during the period

Most of these who become tribulation saints will be killed for their faith and will have to wait until the end of the period for their resurrection to immortality [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4(those beheaded)

There will be mortal survivors of the tribuation period of both Israel and the nations [gentiles]

The Lord will appear on the earth just after His period of judgment and gather all of the mortal survivors on the earth and He will separate them

Those found believing will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals .... those found in unbelief will be rejected [Matthew 24:29-31; 25;31-46]

The pre-tribulation church and those who become believers during the tribulation will rule with the Lord as immortals during His millennial kingdom [Reveation 20:4]

His millennial kingdom will last for 1000 years and then eternity will begin with a new heaven and new earth [Revelation 20; 21 [all believers are "overcomers" .... all of the saved from the beginning of human creation]]

All immortal believers will enter eternity and all of the spirits of the human dead [unbelievers] will be destroyed in the lake of fire forever

When the Lord says He is coming "quickly" He means that He will come "suddenly" with no warning .... to bring His judgment .... and then to rule the earth

He has not revealed the dating of His intervention to immortalize today's church and then to bring judgment against an unbelieving world

So His action to do this has been possible since a remnant part of Israel has been returned to the land of Israel

The nation must be there in order to experience the time of the end of this present age during the 70th week decreed for them

A remnant part of the nation has returned and is in the land at the present time just as the scriptures tell

So He could call the church home before this day is over

Make certain that you are ready  

  
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 19:27:49 by Truth Files »

Offline Seriousseeker

  • 60 Years In Christ
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #8 on: Mon Sep 13, 2010 - 18:53:24 »
Curt, I see that most Bible commentators place Acts 20:7 as historically the remembrance time as the Lord requested before His death.  They came together to remember the Lord in His sacrifice.  The remembrance and celebration was that He arose (first day of the week).  They came to remember and praise the Lord for His promise and assurance of resurrection on that day.

Concerning the Sabbath, that only applies to Israel.  It was done away with their religion.  It is interesting that all the ten commandments are found in the N.T. except the Sabbath.  It is omitted ---why?  That is because the truths of the Ten Commandments are still valid, but the Sabbath is not.  One can check this out in Scripture.

- Seriousseeker

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #9 on: Tue Sep 14, 2010 - 06:07:43 »
Dear Serious, thanks, I did and found the Sabbath mentioned in various places in the N/T, Matt:12:8, 24:20 28:1, Mark 2:27, & 3:4, and so on. The thing I couldn't find was anywhere Jesus or anybody else for that matter, said anything about changing anything or dropping one of the commandments, I can't even find anything about the apostles doing it or referencing it in any of their writings, can you point it out to me, maybe I am missing something. Thanks God bless

curt

Offline Truth Files

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #10 on: Tue Sep 14, 2010 - 11:20:26 »
Colossians
2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Offline Seriousseeker

  • 60 Years In Christ
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #11 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 21:35:13 »
Dear Serious, thanks, I did and found the Sabbath mentioned in various places in the N/T, Matt:12:8, 24:20 28:1, Mark 2:27, & 3:4, and so on. The thing I couldn't find was anywhere Jesus or anybody else for that matter, said anything about changing anything or dropping one of the commandments, I can't even find anything about the apostles doing it or referencing it in any of their writings, can you point it out to me, maybe I am missing something. Thanks God bless

curt

My thought, Curt, is not that the Sabbath stopped, but that it is no longer an ordinance and time of worship.  The verses you quote all refer to Jesus speaking to the Israelites about their religion and the sabbath, which is no justification for the church.  

Israel's religion is done away as is evidenced at the cross (note the vail and the priest's garment, etc.).  The church is the "bride of Christ" and is not an extension of Israel and their religion.  We see no recognition and approval of their religion mentioned until we look at prophecy, when they are again taken up and re-established as God's favored (covenanted) people on earth.  The bride will always be with Christ in heaven (except their appearance with Him during the Millenium on earth).  Thereafter the bride will be with the Bridegroom in the celestial city over the earth.

Please note also, that your ref. before to Paul preaching on the Sabbath in Acts 20:7 is an error --he was preaching on the eve of "the first day of the week".

You may write me personally if you wish to pursue this, Curt.

- Seriousseeker
aninterface@hotmail.com

« Last Edit: Sat Sep 18, 2010 - 12:49:06 by Seriousseeker »

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #12 on: Tue Sep 21, 2010 - 22:04:42 »
Thanks i will.

Visionary

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #13 on: Fri Sep 24, 2010 - 00:00:25 »
These are 144 000 of Revelation are Hebrew virgins who will proclaim Christ to their own during the latter 3.5 years of tribulation.
Just as Christ ministered to his own approximately for 3.5 years.
During this time before the Lords return no gentile will be saved because the full number of gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:25-27

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #14 on: Fri Sep 24, 2010 - 20:24:06 »
Thanks, that is a an interesting concept, are the 144,000 all women? Or is this refering to both men and women? Are they pure from sexual experience, (not having had any). It says they have not been defiled by women, what does this mean? Is there some other significance being opened here? This group seems to me to be a very special group of people, they have been called out it seems to me, because they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.I have heard several times that they are Hebrews, where does it say this, I can't or haven't found it yet? Please advise as to where it is.

Thanks God bless

Curt

Visionary

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #15 on: Fri Sep 24, 2010 - 21:02:44 »
God bless curt...

144 000 from the tribe of...these are the sons of Jacob-the Father of the Jewish nation-the Hebrews.

Yes they are all men...not defiled by women...virgin men!

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #16 on: Sat Sep 25, 2010 - 06:20:25 »
Thanks Visionary, does that mean that I can't be one,(been married for 33 years) ??? I want to be with Christ where ever He goes? This must have another meaning. Maybe the virginity is spiritual, not been hooked up with any false religion, Christs church, I have often heard, is refered to as a woman / bride?? Is this possible??? It doesn't seem fair that Christ would preclude us from such an intimate relationship with Him, just because we have been married, Moses was married, Peter was married, Adam was married, God even instituted marriage. What do you think?  Thanks God bless

Curt 

Offline Geezer

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #17 on: Sun Oct 03, 2010 - 17:26:32 »
I think people make this way too complicated - when it is simple. The book of Revelation was written to whom? It was written to the Christians of the first century and those who lived under the Roman government. What did the 144,ooo mean to the first century Christians? We only look over their shoulders to see what it meant to them and then we can see what it means to us - just like all the books in the Bible. None were written directly to us.

Here is the correct listing of the 12 tribes of Israel from the book of Chronicles...

1 Chron. 2:1-2 (KJV)
These are the sons of Israel;

Reuben,
Simeon,
Levi,
Judah,
Issachar,
Zebulun,
Dan,
Joseph,
Benjamin,
Naphtali,
Gad,
Asher.

The symbolic listing of the tribes (144,000) in REVELATION.

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and in the O.T. listing the firstborn is always Reuben. But in this symbolic listing Judah is first - WHY!! Because the firstborn of this company of people is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah means “praise.

Amo

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #18 on: Tue Oct 05, 2010 - 18:09:20 »
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The beginning of chapter fourteen leaves the seen of the beasts on earth, and moves forward to those who have gained the victory, and are in heaven with Christ.  These one hundred and forty four thousand are apparently a special group who follow the Lamb, or Christ where ever He goes.  They are without fault before God, and no guile, or deceit is in their mouths.  They have not been defiled with women, and are virgins.  Whether this number is literal or symbolic, is not revealed. 

The fact that they are not defiled with women, is suggestive that he women they might have been involved with are not pure or holy.  BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH comes to mind.  It is through the worlds relationship with Babylon and her daughters, that they are defiled.  More specifically, through the acceptance of her lying doctrines, they deny the truth and are defiled before God. 

Immediately following verse five is the proclamation of the three angels messages which we have already examined.  No doubt, it is the preaching of these messages that separates this one hundred and forty four thousand from the rest of humanity.  By preaching these truths in the earth, they are following the leading of the Lamb of God.  Just as Christ came into the world to preach the truth, regardless of the consequences, so to do the one hundred and forty four thousand, proving their loyalty to Christ.  Thus there is no guile, or deceit coming from their mouths.  They take no part in the false doctrines of the church of Rome.

Offline BroBrent

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
  • Manna: 11
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #19 on: Mon Oct 11, 2010 - 18:27:22 »
If you want to have an explanation for the difference in the listings of the twelve tribes go to Chuck Missler's web site.

Offline Wanderer

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #20 on: Tue Oct 12, 2010 - 15:08:00 »
Curt, the 144, 000 is not a literal number, it symbolizes everyone Christ paid for the sins of.


Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #21 on: Tue Oct 12, 2010 - 16:19:06 »
OK, if that is the case, where is the Biblical support, I like to idea, but I want it to have Biblical support??? God bless

Offline Wanderer

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #22 on: Tue Oct 12, 2010 - 16:34:20 »
I don't have exactly what you want right now but I will look for it.

In the meantime consider this, 144,000 is a pretty clear number correct? Do you think it equals "a great multitude which no man can number"?

Offline Wanderer

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #23 on: Fri Oct 15, 2010 - 12:38:05 »
I don't have exactly what you want right now but I will look for it.

As promised, my search results. Following is how my Teacher explains the 144,000;

Quote
We read in Revelation 7:14:

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and therefore sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

In this very revealing passage, God is speaking of a time when four angels would hurt the earth and the sea. But they could not bring their hurtful activity until the servants of God were sealed. These servants numbered 144,000 and were from all of the tribes of Israel.
As we try to understand this, we know that to be sealed means to be saved. We read in Ephesians 1:13,14:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Thus, we can know that these 144,000 have been saved. We must also realize that the number 144,000 is a symbolical number. It is made up of 12,000 from each of twelve tribes of Israel. Especially in the Book of Revelation, the number twelve signifies the fullness of whatever is in view and the number ten or 100 or 1,000 signifies the completeness of whatever is in view, For example, the holy city, the new Jerusalem is 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia by l2,000 stadia. It has a wall that is 144 (12 x 12) cubits. These numbers signify the fullness or the complete fullness of all believers who make up the eternal Jerusalem.
Likewise, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are also the complete fulness of all those who would have become saved prior to the loosing of the four angels who will hurt the land and the sea.

Does that help?

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #24 on: Fri Oct 15, 2010 - 19:37:52 »

I don't have exactly what you want right now but I will look for it.

As promised, my search results. Following is how my Teacher explains the 144,000;

We read in Revelation 7:14:

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and therefore sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

In this very revealing passage, God is speaking of a time when four angels would hurt the earth and the sea. But they could not bring their hurtful activity until the servants of God were sealed. These servants numbered 144,000 and were from all of the tribes of Israel.
As we try to understand this, we know that to be sealed means to be saved. We read in Ephesians 1:13,14:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Thus, we can know that these 144,000 have been saved. We must also realize that the number 144,000 is a symbolical number. It is made up of 12,000 from each of twelve tribes of Israel. Especially in the Book of Revelation, the number twelve signifies the fullness of whatever is in view and the number ten or 100 or 1,000 signifies the completeness of whatever is in view, For example, the holy city, the new Jerusalem is 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia by l2,000 stadia. It has a wall that is 144 (12 x 12) cubits. These numbers signify the fullness or the complete fullness of all believers who make up the eternal Jerusalem.
Likewise, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are also the complete fulness of all those who would have become saved prior to the loosing of the four angels who will hurt the land and the sea.


Does that help?


Dear Wanderer, the following verse of scripture makes me not believe the 144,000 are just representative of the total population of believers.

Revelation 14:3  And they (144,000) sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

We must know who the 24 elders and the four beasts are, and Revelation 5:9 gives that information. "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
  
In Revelation 7:4 those of the 144,000 are said to be of all the tribes of the children of Israel, while the 24 elders and the four beasts are from all nations according to Revelation 5:9.

In order of John seeing them, the 24 elders and the four beasts are with Jesus when He receives His throne in Revelation 4:2, next John is shown the great multitude standing before the throne in heaven that came out of great tribulation, and later the 144,000 are seen with Jesus before the throne in heaven.

My thoughts.
  

blu

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #25 on: Sun Oct 17, 2010 - 12:33:09 »
Dear All, this seems to be a topic with a lot of interpretations, any thoughts?

Thanks and God bless

Curt

144,000 in Rev.14:1
Who are the 144,000?
144,000 having God’s name written on their foreheads. (The forehead is where all the important decisions are made and where your religion is.) (How do we know Gods name?) In Mark 14:36 (this is where Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemane, before He was crucified.) He prayed Abba, Father and asked His Father, that He would not have to go through the dreadful experience of the cross. Abba is His Fathers name. In Gal. 4:6 the Bible tells us, we are sons and daughters of God and that we call God Abba Father. If you write the word Sabbath and take out the “S

Offline curt

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Manna: 0
Re: 144,000
« Reply #26 on: Fri Oct 22, 2010 - 21:32:16 »
OK, where is the 1988 from and the 1994. I am confused. I don't see a tribulation period and am not sure what church ended? I was under the impression that the tribulation begins with the plagues falling and after all that finishes Christ returns? Please help me with the dates and all that??? Thanks

Curt

Offline Wanderer

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
Re: 144,000
« Reply #27 on: Fri Oct 22, 2010 - 22:07:55 »
Quote
Ever since Israel came out of Egypt in 1447 B.C. until Christ arose from the grave in A.D. 33, the nation of Israel was the congregation with which most believers identified. The temple of Jerusalem and the synagogues located in various cities of Israel were the houses of worship in which the Bible believers gathered.
However, when Jesus was announced as the Lamb of God, it marked the beginning of intense spiritual famine of hearing the Word of God. For three and a half years, very few were saved.
Immediately after this three and a half years, God made a major shift in the focus of the Gospel. No longer was the temple to have any part of the Gospel focus. No longer were people to go to the synagogues to hear Biblical truth. They now were to go to the churches that began to spring up all over the world.
This shift met with great resistance on the part of the leaders of the synagogues. Saul of Tarsus who later became Paul is an example. He was ready to physically murder people who left the synagogues to join the Christian movement. After he became saved, he became the target of these synagogue rulers. He was stoned and left for dead. He was beaten with rods on four different occasions. He indeed experienced the anger of the synagogue leaders.
However, the shift to the church age was God’s plan. It began with Pentecost in A.D. 33 and continued until A.D. 1988, which officially ended the church age. The end of the church age identifies with the early rain that brought in the harvest of the firstfruits.
Finally, God’s plan included one more shift. The shift was from the church age to the season of the latter rain that would bring in the end-time harvest. The latter rain season was also preceded by a period of a famine of hearing the Word of God. Even as the famine during Christ’s ministry was precisely three and a half years, so this famine at the end of the church age is symbolically indicated to be three and a half days and as forty -two months. Utilizing the Bible’s methodology, we can see that the three and a half days is the same period as that spoken of as three and a half years. This three and a half years or forty-two months season is not an actual literal season of three and a half years as was the situation during Christ’s ministry. More likely it identifies literally with the 2,300 evening mornings of Daniel 8. Thus, in all likelihood the Great Tribulation began in 1988.
The church age was the time the firstfruits were brought in. It was totally identified with Pentecost. Therefore, it is possible that the last year of the church age ended the day before the day in which Pentecost was observed in 1988. That would have been May 1988. It is curious and perhaps significant that 1988 is precisely the 13,000 year anniversary of the creation of the world.
Curiously and perhaps significantly, 2,300 days after the day before Pentecost was observed arrives at September 6, 1994. This also is a day that identifies with the Old Testament feast days. If they are extended into the New Testament era, it would be the first day of the seventh month which during the Old Testament was a memorial of blowing of trumpets. Leviticus 23:24 records:

Speaking unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a Sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

It was an especially important new moon (first day of a Jewish month) because it was during the seventh month that the Jubilee was observed (tenth day) and the feast of ingathering identifies with the final harvest which we are discovering also identifies with the latter rain.
The shift from the synagogue and temple era to the New Testament church era was, as we have already learned, greatly resisted by the religious rulers. Already during the three and a half years of Jesus’ ministry, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the priests wanted Jesus killed. After the church age began, Paul and the other missionaries who were active, ordinarily experienced great opposition from the synagogues. Paul was stoned and left for dead. He was beaten with rods several times.
The synagogue at Berea was the exception to the rule in that they, “received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things be so

jfla

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #28 on: Sat Oct 23, 2010 - 21:07:25 »
In Rev. 7 we can see there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel sealed.

Isn't the tribe of Dan left out?

Quote
They will be the ones foretold to inherit the earth during Israel's reinstatement by God.  The great "multitude" in v.9 speaks of the Gentiles who will also be preserved on the earth.

All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews.  Thus some Israelites are identified as Gentiles.  The Bible clearly indicates that the descendants of Jacob will not be confined to a single nation (Genesis 17:4; 35:11; 48:19).  The Jews consist of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and a portion of Levi.  Non-Jewish Israelites have the other tribes and the remainder of Levi.  The first time the Jews are identified in the Bible is II Kings 16:6 when they are at war with the Northern Kingdom of Israel.
I don't believe that the 144,000 in Revelation have any great theological significance.  They are simply the Israelites that will spread the Gospel after the Church is raptured.






jfla

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #29 on: Sat Oct 23, 2010 - 21:16:06 »
Thanks, that is a an interesting concept, are the 144,000 all women? Or is this refering to both men and women? Are they pure from sexual experience, (not having had any). It says they have not been defiled by women, what does this mean? Is there some other significance being opened here? This group seems to me to be a very special group of people, they have been called out it seems to me, because they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.I have heard several times that they are Hebrews, where does it say this, I can't or haven't found it yet? Please advise as to where it is.

Thanks God bless

Curt

Can God really demand that someone remain a virgin (both male and female) in order to serve Him, when His first commandment to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply?  Can someone serve the Lord when they willfully reject His most basic commandment?  The sex drive is supposed to be one of the strongest forces in biology.  But as Adam and Eve demonstrated the sin drive is even stronger.  God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful multiply- He even saved them the step of having to undress- but all Adam and Eve were interested in doing was hearkening to Satan.

jfla

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #30 on: Sat Oct 23, 2010 - 21:20:06 »
God bless curt...

144 000 from the tribe of...these are the sons of Jacob-the Father of the Jewish nation-the Hebrews.

Yes they are all men...not defiled by women...virgin men!

Since when is sex between a man and his wife defilement? Hebrews 13:4.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #31 on: Sat Oct 23, 2010 - 21:27:38 »

The great "multitude" in v.9 speaks of the Gentiles who will also be preserved on the earth.  These people are the populous or subjects who will dwell under the reign of Christ for 1,000 years.


Revelation 7:15  Therefore are they (Great Multitude) before the throne of God. . .

God's throne is in heaven, and that is where John sees them as they came out of great tribulation.

My thoughts.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #32 on: Sat Oct 23, 2010 - 21:40:13 »


In Rev. 7 we can see there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel sealed.



Isn't the tribe of Dan left out?

I don't believe that the 144,000 in Revelation have any great theological significance.  They are simply the Israelites that will spread the Gospel after the Church is raptured.



I thought spreading the gospel was relegated to the two witnesses. And then we see the 144,000 in heaven with Christ in Revelation Chapter Fourteen. They are also before the throne and that is in heaven. Pretty significant to me.

As to Dan, Genesis 49:17.  Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

He may be one that aligns with the antichrist. 

jfla

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #33 on: Sun Oct 24, 2010 - 06:50:37 »
I thought spreading the gospel was relegated to the two witnesses.

Two people to spread the Gospel to the entire world?  It doesn't seem realistic.

Quote
And then we see the 144,000 in heaven with Christ in Revelation Chapter Fourteen. They are also before the throne and that is in heaven. Pretty significant to me.

Chapter 14 mentions that the 144,000 are on Mount Zion, i.e., the earth.  Since God has sealed them and it is God's name that is written on their forehead, will the Antichrist have any power over them- could the Antichrist kill them-could they be found in heaven as long as the Antichrist is found on earth?


larry2

  • Guest
Re: 144,000
« Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 24, 2010 - 11:53:06 »

Chapter 14 mentions that the 144,000 are on Mount Zion, i.e., the earth.  Since God has sealed them and it is God's name that is written on their forehead, will the Antichrist have any power over them- could the Antichrist kill them-could they be found in heaven as long as the Antichrist is found on earth?


Dear brother, you might take into consideration Hebrews 12:22. because here Mount Sion or Zion is the heavenly Jerusalem. "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels." Again, God's throne is in heaven.

Notice one other thing; Revelation 14:3 ". . . the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth[/u]."

No, these 144,000 will not be hurt of the antichrist or his minions. Revelation 9:4. "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

 

     
anything