GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: 2 Thessalonians 2  (Read 2321 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

inthenow

  • Guest
2 Thessalonians 2
« on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 22:30:03 »
2Thessalonians 2

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Php 2:16  Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.


For the saved, the day of Christ is a day of rejoicing. Our gathering to him (the rapture).[/color]
 
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Act 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


The “falling away

Christian Forums and Message Board

2 Thessalonians 2
« on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 22:30:03 »

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #1 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 23:57:09 »
Wow, you've really bit off a big section to cover in all its aspects, so I'll just take a nip at it, and if we can agree on parts of it I will continue on another post.

2Th 2:3 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now withholdeth will withhold, until he be taken out of the way.
 

Many contend that he that withholdeth is the Holy Spirit, and that is not so. If the Holy Spirit is taken from us, none others, will be saved. We're talking here of the rapture, the mystery of inequity, and that which holds back the tribulation from beginning.

God must remove His overcoming saints prior to the tribulation to satisfy Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. We saw that the Day of Christ is at hand. In Revelation 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . .; this is that same Day of Christ, and it begins with seven years of tribulation.

The first three chapters of Revelation covers this present age from Revelation 1:10 where John has a rearward view we are presently in, and it includes the judgment of the Church as Jesus walks among the candles, and reports on it in Chapters Two and Three.

Now we go to Revelation 4:1 when John is invited up to heaven, leaves his earthly view, and is to be shown things hereafter from the very start of the Lord's Day which lasts for one thousand years. When John gets up there he sees the Lord Jesus receiving His own throne in Revelation 4:2, and two groups of saints with Him; the twenty-four elders, and the four living ones or beasts; these make up the pre-trib rapture, and in Revelation 5:9 they sing "Thou hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Over- they remain in heaven) the earth.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #1 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 23:57:09 »

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #2 on: Mon Apr 02, 2012 - 17:38:31 »
larry2:
Many contend that he that withholdeth is the Holy Spirit, and that is not so. If the Holy Spirit is taken from us, none others, will be saved. We're talking here of the rapture, the mystery of inequity, and that which holds back the tribulation from beginning.

I wonder who other than God can withold this prophesied endtime beast from being revealed?
It's only when the Holy Spirit is removed from the world in the faithful, that lawlessness can have it's reign at it's God appointed time.
As people come to God through the preaching of the angel, the two witnesses, and the 144000, The Holy Spirit may return if need be, with His ministry of restraining being times past.


God must remove His overcoming saints prior to the tribulation to satisfy Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. We saw that the Day of Christ is at hand. In Revelation 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . .; this is that same Day of Christ, and it begins with seven years of tribulation.

The first three chapters of Revelation covers this present age from Revelation 1:10 where John has a rearward view we are presently in, and it includes the judgment of the Church as Jesus walks among the candles, and reports on it in Chapters Two and Three.

The seven churches were in Johns day, and spiritually are since then up until now.

Now we go to Revelation 4:1 when John is invited up to heaven, leaves his earthly view, and is to be shown things hereafter from the very start of the Lord's Day which lasts for one thousand years. When John gets up there he sees the Lord Jesus receiving His own throne in Revelation 4:2, and two groups of saints with Him; the twenty-four elders, and the four living ones or beasts; these make up the pre-trib rapture, and in Revelation 5:9 they sing "Thou hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Over- they remain in heaven) the earth.

It's off topic I think for 2 thess, but how are the four beasts the church along with the 24 elders?

Larry If I do a short study on revelation, I may come up with something diffrent to what I came up with in 2 thess 2, I started with verse 1, with nothing pre conceived, and came up with that from those verses and a couple of others to support 2thess 2.
where do some of these things fit with 2 thess 2?

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1327
  • Manna: 21
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 12:34:28 »
Larry2 said:

God must remove His overcoming saints prior to the tribulation to satisfy Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall
come upon the whole world

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Matt 26:64 tells believers that the NEXT time we See Jesus will be in Heaven beside the Father
(this verse alone should show no secret rapture can occur)

this happens at the sixth seal (Rev 6:14-17)

this is Gods day of wrath which will try the whole world....

This is that "next" time we see Christ.

Notice the 144,000 are marked first then the great multitude are seen before the throne.  The rapture and the sealing of 144,000 happens in ONE TRIP.

Notice in johns first description of the throne room has no mention of any great number of people. (rev 4)

that day Happens during the Tribulation.

The first part of the tribulation (past half) is satans kingdom
then comes that day of Gods wrath.


Also 2 thess :7 - is talking to all believers to rest with Paul till Christ comes with his mighty angels (rev 7:1-2) the rapture

1:10 when Christ is glorified in his saints ( the rapture or gathering together)

2:1 the gathering together with Christ
2:2 don't believe Christ came as every eye will see him (rev1:7)
2:3 For THAT DAY (what day?) the day we have been talking about
the gathering together - rapture

the Rapture will NOT HAPPEN

until

1. Falling away comes First
2. Man of sin revealed (happens at mid trib breaking of dan9:27 agreement)

if you believe it happens BEFORE these things, then you've been decieved.

The hour of trial is after the temple is taking.....

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 12:34:28 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1327
  • Manna: 21
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 12:45:35 »
Larry2 said:

Many contend that he that withholdeth is the Holy Spirit, and that is not so. If the Holy Spirit is taken from us, none others, will be saved. We're talking here of the rapture, the mystery of inequity, and that which holds back the tribulation from beginning.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

the restrainer is ONLY restraining the Devil from takng the temple seat and proclaiming himself as GOD. when the restrainer is removed he is ONLY removed from restraining the temple and proclaiming as god....

Example:

10 people are at a party
a guy comes in and starts trouble with 4 kids
one guy of the 10 steps in and stops the new kid
now 1 of the 10 mouths off to the new kid
so now the restrainer let's the new kid
pound the mouthy kid

the restrainer is still present
now if the new kid decides he now wants to pick on the other kids
the restrainer who let him pick on one kid
Won't let him pick on the rest

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 12:45:35 »



Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1327
  • Manna: 21
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #5 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 13:16:56 »
Now we go to Revelation 4:1 when John is invited up to heaven, leaves his earthly view, and is to be shown things hereafter from the very start of the Lord's Day which lasts for one thousand years.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

Rev 14:1 shows Jesus on Mt Zion with the 144,000 (sealed during rapture.)

when Satan is loosen after the 1000 yrs reign on earth,
(rev 20:9) shows us the saints are on earth

this is when God says to Christ:

wait till I make your enemys your footstool.   

When he rules over them on earth for 1000 yrs.

If you believe the 1000 yr reign is either happening or happned,

then how has the enemies of Christ been made his footstool?

They still roam in evil and sin....

Matt 25:31-32 tells us that when Christ comes (to earth) with his angels to sit upon his throne
32 and before HIM shall be all the nations (earth)
with v41 sending those into the lake of fire. (after 1000 yr reign)

they are his footstool for 1000 yrs and since believers have already bowed their knee to Christ
this still leaves Them (unsaved) to bow and confess Jesus is Lord (not savior)  just lord to them

but to us both Lord and Savior



Also someone said the 24 elders were the saints but in Rev 19:4 the 24 are still bowing to God
the great multitude are the saints. 14:14-16 is the rapture of saints (some awaken to life) and then
the rest awoke to shame this happens at same time when All eyes see his coming (rev1:7) this is whenall awake to see Christ come in great glory and power.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #6 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 13:19:34 »

larry2:
Many contend that he that withholdeth is the Holy Spirit, and that is not so. If the Holy Spirit is taken from us, none others, will be saved. We're talking here of the rapture, the mystery of inequity, and that which holds back the tribulation from beginning.

I wonder who other than God can withold this prophesied endtime beast from being revealed?
It's only when the Holy Spirit is removed from the world in the faithful, that lawlessness can have it's reign at it's God appointed time.
As people come to God through the preaching of the angel, the two witnesses, and the 144000, The Holy Spirit may return if need be, with His ministry of restraining being times past.



To me you are correct in that it is God Who does the actual restraining, though it is with purpose, and that is until those of the bride are removed from harm's way. Those "Kept from the temptation to come upon all the world" of Revelation 3:10." Example: who are those with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning? Are they not as dear to God as righteous Lot of Genesis Chapter nineteen below?

Genesis 19:21-22  . . I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22  Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. .

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #7 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 13:55:10 »
The Lord is the restrainer against Satan and his minions [fallen angelic princes] [Daniel 10] .... read it carefully and compare His description with that given in Revelation 1

And the gathering in 2Thessalonians 2:1 is different than the following day of the Lord .... His coming wrath and tribulation which will lead to His millennial kingdom on the earth


Hi Linker, in your opinion, what to you is the "Day of Christ" that is at hand of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, and the time that the "man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" of verse three? Does this not reflect the context and end times of these verses?

Thanks.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1327
  • Manna: 21
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #8 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 13:57:33 »
2thess 2:6 tells us that we know what with holds him from being revealed

and his is revealed when he sits in the temple

so the restrainer keeps him from being revealed in the temple



larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #9 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 18:00:48 »

Paul sets them straight and tells that the "day of the Lord" had not come yet because Satan's beast in the little horn and those that will follow him [the transgressors of Daniel 8:23 .... these are the "falling away" from the truth] were not present .... Satan was still being restrained and not allowed to bring his beast ... he will not be able to do this until the restraint against his is reduced .... and this is still a pending event.


I agree with you but for the quote above if I understand it correctly. This little horn is the false prophet understanding dark sentences, versus the little horn of Daniel Chapter Seven which is the antichrist. Both will not have their own power, but be that of Satan in Verse Twenty-four. He will destroy with peace in Verse Twenty-five.

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #10 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 18:36:33 »
The 24 elders could be the raptured church, representing messianic christians from Israel the 12 tribes, and from christianity represented by the 12 apostles.
Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
From other scriptures we know that the faithful are given white raiment and crowns.

John sees them in Heaven before the first seal is opened, in fact before the Lamb is given the little book.
Rev 5:1  And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2  And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


 And they are many people, not just 24 persons.
Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


More tomorrow, boy is everyone busy at the moment, I'm supposed to be retired.  ::nodding::

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #11 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 19:10:01 »

The 24 elders could be the raptured church, representing messianic christians from Israel the 12 tribes, and from christianity represented by the 12 apostles.
Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
From other scriptures we know that the faithful are given white raiment and crowns.

More tomorrow, boy is everyone busy at the moment, I'm supposed to be retired.  ::nodding::


First, retirement is an acquired skill - lax out.

Next, the twenty-four elders and the four living ones are the pre-trib rapture of the church. The are with Jesus when He receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2 prior to the start of the tribulation. The twenty-four elders are the dead in Christ that will rise first represented by the Smyrna Church who have crowns, and the four living ones who are those caught up to meet them in the air, and they also have crowns of the Philadelphia church. None of the remaining five churches are promised crowns, nor are any kingdom age Messianic saints to receive crowns. These two groups both sing together in Revelation 5:9-10, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #12 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 19:40:06 »
"This little horn is the false prophet"

Can't agree with you on this one Larry

Here is the little horn [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince]; 11:36-45; 12:7]

Notice that this same human little horn has become the the first beast of Revelation ..... you don't see the little horn in Revelation's unfolding .... you see the beast ..... this is because Satan's beast from the abyss has incarnated him with full possession

The little horn and 10 other kings [Daniel] ..... the beast and 10 other kings [Revelation]

This beast is not a human, but a fallen angelic like Satan, and he has ruled over 5 other human kingdoms in the ancient Middle East for Satan .... this beast is currently in the abyss to be released at the beginning of the coming tribulation period [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-14] .... he will rule the Middle East again

The false prophet is another fallen angelic who will lead the religious cult of the first beast [Revelation 13:11]

It is the first beast that is described in 2Thessalonians 2:8-12  


Good enough.  ::smile::

Offline CatHead

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Manna: 5
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #13 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 19:47:38 »
Hi inthenow,
The 24 elders could be the raptured church, representing messianic christians from Israel the 12 tribes, and from christianity represented by the 12 apostles.
Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
From other scriptures we know that the faithful are given white raiment and crowns.

John sees them in Heaven before the first seal is opened, in fact before the Lamb is given the little book.
Rev 5:1  And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2  And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


 And they are many people, not just 24 persons.
Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


More tomorrow, boy is everyone busy at the moment, I'm supposed to be retired.  ::nodding::

The KJV reading of Revelation 5:8-10 is not accurate.  Check for yourself other translations of the same text to see that it is disputed as to whether the living creatures and elders are singing the song about themselves, or whether they are singing the song about humanity in general.

For example, the NIV renders Rev 5:9 "with your blood you have purchased men", the ESV has "by your blood you have ransomed people" etc.  Anyway, the more you check, the more you will see that the KJV version "thou has redeemed us by thy blood" is the minority opinion of how the text should read.  Below is a link to a website that has a bunch of different versions of Revelation 5:9 for you to see....

http://bible.cc/revelation/5-9.htm

If you just do this simple research, and read the other translated versions of Revelation 5:8-10, you should at least come to the conclusion that how the text should be translated is in dispute by scholars.  So there is a problem that should be resolved here before doctrine is built on this passage....would you agree?

I did a study of the all the manuscripts available that contain Revelation 5:8-10 and found that 23 are in favor of the 3rd person version of the song, and only 3 favor the 1st person reading.  And of the 3, 1 (792) is not conclusive because it has a first person reading in vs 9, but a 3rd person version of verse 10.  And also the 3 that favor the 1st person KJV reading are very late byzantine mss that are generally much less reliable and more prone to changes than earlier mss.  I posted the results from my study awhile back on this forum.


Here are the facts:
In Revelation 5:10a - the MSS containing 5:10 that read 'kai poieo autous' (and has made "them")
A, B, N, M, P, 046, 052, 922, 1006, 1611, 1826, 1828, 1841, 2041, 2050, 2053, 2329, 2344, coptic, syriac, vulgate, NA27, LXX

the MSS that read (and has made "us")
792, 2436, and the sole source of Revelation used by Erasmus 2814.  These 3 MSS all date in the range of the 11th and 12th centuries.

It should also be pointed out that even though 792 is a witness in favor of the TR in verse 10a, and uses "us",  10b is rendered "they shall reign" which opposes the TR.  So 792 is not really a reliable witness for the TR in my opinion.

It should also be noted that MSS 296, 2049, and 2066 reflect the TR version hemas/us in 10a.  But all three are cursives directly copied from the TR itself and can't be used for support.

Many of these mss are available for viewing at this link for those that are interested:
http://www.csntm.org/manuscript



It's really not necessary to study the greek mss to know which version is correct however.  It just takes simple reasoning to know that the 1st person KJV version is not correct.  Simply take into consideration that the 'four living creatures' are also singing the song.  These are the same 'living creatures' from Ezekiel's vision...which are identified as 'cherubim'.

Eze 10:14  And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Eze 10:15  And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.


Rev 4:7  And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

The 'cherubim' could not be singing a song about how the Lord redeemed them from the earth by his blood, because 'cherubim' are heavenly creatures which are not redeemed from the earth.  The KJV reading of Revelation 5:8-10 is wrong.

I think that 'larry2' was the person I had this discussion with last and see he is still advancing the opinion that the 'living creatures' are raptured men.   That is simply not the case and is soundly disproved by Ezekiel 10:15.  I hope you can be more open and honest with this research and not base doctrine on the corrupted KJV version of Revelation 5:8-10.  Thanks for your time :)

Have a great day,

Cat




larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #14 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 20:04:40 »

The KJV reading of Revelation 5:8-10 is not accurate.  Check for yourself other translations of the same text to see that it is disputed as to whether the living creatures and elders are singing the song about themselves, or whether they are singing the song about humanity in general.


So you think the twenty-four elders are not human?  ::smile::

I hope you do realize either way it is said by the different translations is dependent upon who and what the translators thought its rendering should be. In these circumstances I believe both are right, though newer translations throw doubt on who they actually are; are they describing the first or second person?

Offline CatHead

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Manna: 5
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #15 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 20:13:08 »
Hi Linker,
It is the 24 elders who sing the song, not the cherubs who have no need to be redeemed [they are God's angels who never rebelled against Him
The greek is clear that the elders and living creatures fall before the lamb in unison in verse 8, and that THEY (the creatures and elders) sing the new song in verse 9.  Your assertion that it is only the elders that sing the song is incorrect grammatically.

Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


Quote
And the correct translation is "us" as the KJV records .... the 24 elders and the great multitude
I'm not sure why you think your argument would be convincing since you are offering no proof for your assertion?  Just a gut feeling on your part?

Have a great day,

Cat

« Last Edit: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 20:25:50 by CatHead »

Offline CatHead

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Manna: 5
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #16 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 20:23:33 »
Hi larry2,

So you think the twenty-four elders are not human?  ::smile::
It's my personal opinion that the 24 elders are not human, yes.  But it is provable that the 'living creatures' are definitely not human.  Therefore, they cannot sing a song about being redeemed from the earth.  Therefore, the KJV of Revelation 5:8-10 contains error.

Quote
I hope you do realize either way it is said by the different translations is dependent upon who and what the translators thought its rendering should be. In these circumstances I believe both are right, though newer translations throw doubt on who they actually are; are they describing the first or second person?
Of course I realize that there is disagreement between scholars.  That is why each of us should take due diligence and try and determine for ourselves the truth of all matters.  

I'm not sure why you think "both are right"  2 completely different words are used (hemas and autous) which lead to two completely different impressions.  "hemas" to the impression that the 'living creatures' and 'elders' are singing a song about themselves being redeemed from the earth.  "autous" to the impression that the 'living creatures' and 'elders' are singing a song about men being redeemed from the earth by Christ.

Have a great day,

Cat


Offline Glorious

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 972
  • Manna: 48
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #17 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 20:25:52 »
The 24 elders could be the raptured church, representing messianic christians from Israel the 12 tribes, and from christianity represented by the 12 apostles.
Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
From other scriptures we know that the faithful are given white raiment and crowns.

John sees them in Heaven before the first seal is opened, in fact before the Lamb is given the little book.
Rev 5:1  And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2  And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


 And they are many people, not just 24 persons.
Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


More tomorrow, boy is everyone busy at the moment, I'm supposed to be retired.  ::nodding::


24 Elders

From scriptures (Rev. 4:4; 5:10), isn't it clear who the 24 elders are? They are those redeemed from the earth who, in perfection, have obtained white robes from the Lord and have obtained golden crowns from the Christ as well. They are kings (having entered the kingdom) and priest (having obtained life and knowledge of truth by the Holy Ghost). More than the church, they are elders/bishops of godliness set over the entire house of God. We count the number "24" according to wisdom.


Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
 
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #18 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 20:30:41 »
The 4 beasts are not immortal humans, they are angelic cherubs, but the 24 elders and the great multitude are the pre-tribulation church

It is the 24 elders who sing the song, not the cherubs who have no need to be redeemed [they are God's angels who never rebelled against Him]

And the correct translation is "us" as the KJV records .... the 24 elders and the great multitude

All of these are present, immortal, and  together in heaven as the Lord removes the seals from the scroll

I read that the great multitude of Revelation 7:9 come out of great tribulation; not kept from it as those of Revelation 3:10.

I'm not sure where you get that only the twenty-four elders sing. I read in Revelation 5:8-9 the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9  And they sung a new song, saying . . . 

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #19 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 20:55:26 »
Hi larry2,

So you think the twenty-four elders are not human?  ::smile::
It's my personal opinion that the 24 elders are not human, yes.  But it is provable that the 'living creatures' are definitely not human.  Therefore, they cannot sing a song about being redeemed from the earth.  Therefore, the KJV of Revelation 5:8-10 contains error.

Quote
I hope you do realize either way it is said by the different translations is dependent upon who and what the translators thought its rendering should be. In these circumstances I believe both are right, though newer translations throw doubt on who they actually are; are they describing the first or second person?
Of course I realize that there is disagreement between scholars.  That is why each of us should take due diligence and try and determine for ourselves the truth of all matters.  

I'm not sure why you think "both are right"  2 completely different words are used (hemas and autous) which lead to two completely different impressions.  "hemas" to the impression that the 'living creatures' and 'elders' are singing a song about themselves being redeemed from the earth.  "autous" to the impression that the 'living creatures' and 'elders' are singing a song about men being redeemed from the earth by Christ.

Have a great day,

Cat


Thanks Cat. To me the fact of redeeming men to God is the subject: the use of "us" or "they" became subject to the interpretation of individuals. What was the original in Greek? The interlinear shows it to be "hemas" or the word "us," as does the Byzantine Majority Greek Text.

I do know there will be the dead in Christ to rise first, and then those alive to be caught up with them in the air. Who do we find with Jesus prior to the tribulation when He receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2? I see only two mentioned.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #20 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 22:03:02 »
Cat said:

"I'm not sure why you think your argument would be convincing since you are offering no proof for your assertion?"

I would suggest Revelation 1:6 as a parallel  "us"

We are not told who the 24 elders are, but I believe John will be one of them

Notice that he has a conversation with an elder as he looks on [Revelation 7:13-14]

John's spirit is taken into the future and to heaven to see what must take place "hereafter" [Revelation 1:19; 4:1]

I would suggest to you that John sees himself ..... the elder who asks him the question

So you think John bows to himself; the messenger of Revelation 19:10 And I (John) fell at his (Jesus angel) feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #21 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 22:10:08 »
The restrainer...

Revelation 20 (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #22 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 22:13:58 »

.... the Lord would not just "rapture" a part of His church .... His harpazo action will include all at the same time [both those asleep in death and those living at the time]


Why not? John describes different groups arriving at separate times and standing in different places; some are round about the throne, and some in the midst of it. Others stand before the throne, and the 144,000 stand before the throne, the twenty-four elders, and the four living ones in Revelation 14:3. The judgment of the seven portions of the church in Revelation Chapters Two and Three determine who will go into tribulation, and who will be delivered or kept from it. Five of the seven are told to repent; only two are rewarded with crowns and they are with Jesus in Revelation Chapter Four.

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #23 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 22:54:34 »
Is it tomorrow yet?
lax out indeed!   ::noworries::

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #24 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 23:38:01 »
"So you think John bows to himself"

No Larry .... the specific scriptures I note say nothing about John bowing to himself

I think that John may have seen himself among the immortal church and had a conversation with himself

Like if you engaged in time travel to heaven in advance and into the future and saw yourself there among the immortal church.


Okay.  ::pondering::

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #25 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 00:16:40 »
Following on,
But:
Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Who are those under the alter? perhaps those who came to Christ during tribulation and were slain for the Word of God.
They were given white robes (glorified bodies) are they the great multitude seen in Heaven in Revelation 7:9

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is a sixth seal rapture, those who died for Christ in Rev. 5 and those alive caugh up before Gods wrath.

They are not the same multitude of Rev. 4 because John who had seen the Rev. 4 multitude, didn't know who they are.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


So the sixth seal rapture seems assured, are it appears there are two raptures. The first being the faithful before tribulation begins, and the second being those who came to Christ during tribulation and before Gods wrath is poured out.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #26 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 00:49:39 »

It appears there are two raptures. The first being the faithful before tribulation begins, and the second being those who came to Christ during tribulation and before Gods wrath is poured out.


Would you believe a third rapture? How do the 144,000 get to heaven shown in Revelation 14:3 to stand before the throne, the 24 elders and the 4 living ones? If there is a last trump, is it possible there are preceding trumps? Is there the chance those who rose in Matthew 27:52-53 were considered by God to be raptured? Yet all believers are a part of the first resurrection.

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #27 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 18:14:48 »

It appears there are two raptures. The first being the faithful before tribulation begins, and the second being those who came to Christ during tribulation and before Gods wrath is poured out.


Would you believe a third rapture? How do the 144,000 get to heaven shown in Revelation 14:3 to stand before the throne, the 24 elders and the 4 living ones? If there is a last trump, is it possible there are preceding trumps? Is there the chance those who rose in Matthew 27:52-53 were considered by God to be raptured? Yet all believers are a part of the first resurrection.
Forgot about them, the two witnesses also.

Offline CatHead

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Manna: 5
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #28 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 19:57:40 »
Hi larry2,
What was the original in Greek? The interlinear shows it to be "hemas" or the word "us," as does the Byzantine Majority Greek Text.

There is no such thing as 'the interlinear'.  An interlinear is just another bible translation and they vary as widely from one to the next as do other translations.  An interlinear is simply a 'word for word' translation from the original language into the language of the reader without making any adjustments for variations in grammar or syntax between the two languages.  The one you are using must be drawing from the Textus Receptus or Byzantine Text type....but there are others that draw from other sources and do not use "hemas"

Byzantine text-type majority is not a reliable witness for your position, because, as you say, in verse 9 of the new song 'hemas' or 'us' is employed, however 'autous'  or 'them' is employed in verse 10.

From MajorityText.com
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; because You were slain, and You redeemed us to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and language and people and nation;
10 and have made them kings and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth."


This creates a very schizophrenic reading in which the ones singing the song (the elders and living creatures) are the ones redeemed by Christ, however the people of the different tribes and languages are the ones that are made the kings and priests.


Quote
I do know there will be the dead in Christ to rise first, and then those alive to be caught up with them in the air. Who do we find with Jesus prior to the tribulation when He receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2? I see only two mentioned.

Inserting your own personal rapture doctrine into Revelation 5:8-10 could be causing you problems in understanding my simple premise here.  Your personal rapture doctrine should not be an issue at all.  Failing to mention raptured humans in 5:8-10 would not automatically exclude them from being there anyway.

The simple premise is that the 'cherubim' sing the song.  They cannot sing the song about themselves being redeemed from the earth, because they do not get redeemed from the earth.  'Hemas' reflects a change to the Original text in verse 9.

Have a great day,

Cat

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1327
  • Manna: 21
    • View Profile
Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #29 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 21:16:28 »
A couple of things to think about The 24 Elders as being Men (saints)

1. We reign on Earth with Christ
2. (Rev 4:4) has just the 24 elders compare to 7:9 great multitude NOW present 7:14 tells us these are tribulation saints...
3. (Rev 4:6) when compare to 15:2 tribulation saints are NOW present.
4. Paul tells us in 2thess :7 for All believers to rest with THEM until Jesus comes in the (one) rapture
(those who die after the rapture (saved) do NOT take part in the return of Christ or the 1000 yr reign
(Rev 14:13 (Rapture next verses) Blessed are those who Die FROM now on that they may Rest From their labors. Wince the door to the marrage supper (after rapture and before 1000 y reign)is shut and won't be opened. (till it's over - looks as if we eat and ride)


Even at  the end of the 1000 yr reign we are still referred to as saints (rev 20:9)

when they sing a new song (5:8) they are holding the prays of saints and could be just singing for those saints (prayers) they hold.   Just a thought

I think there's one rapture and if your alive during the tribulation and don't accept Christ till you see him come (rev 1:7) then you don't get to get same rewards as the other saints both dead and alive (at his coming) spookn of by Paul in 2 thess.

We as well as those who died Overcame till either death or rapture
and saints After His coming Arent included with those who were ready and Watching for His coming.   

The dead who died (overcome) also were watching in faith. And are counted as such.