Author Topic: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand  (Read 922 times)

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Offline 3 Resurrections

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200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« on: Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 14:54:21 »
Who hasn’t heard of the formidable army of 200 MILLION that is supposed to be gathered together in Revelation 9:16?  The assumption is taught that this incredible number must either be that of demonic forces, or possibly composed of Asian countries that could manage putting an army this large into battle. 

It happens that this number of 200 MILLION has been greatly exaggerated, based on a misunderstanding of this verse as originally written.  MOST of the scripture translations butcher the language when interpreting the strength of this army.  What we do know is that John meant to be very precise with the head count of this army of horsemen, because he said that “I HEARD THE NUMBER of them.”  It’s quite possible that this particular number also has a symbolic value as well, but all indications are that this was meant to be a LITERAL number of actual horsemen that John recorded.

So, just what IS that number?  The typical translation renders this as 200 MILLION, but the Greek as originally given is literally translated “TWO MYRIADS OF MYRIADS”. 

The term “myriad” has a more precise definition than just a vague amount for a multitudinous group.  The actual numerical value of a myriad is 10,000.  It’s a term that appears often in scripture, most notably in Psalms 68:17 (KJV).  “The chariots of God are TWENTY THOUSAND, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the holy place.”   With a literal rendering, this verse says , “God’s chariots, TWO MYRIADS OF THOUSANDS, and again myriads of thousands:” (literally, “of repetition:”)  “the Lord among them, Sinai in holiness.”  This shows us that God’s mighty strength in battle is represented by the “two myriads of thousands”, or “TWENTY THOUSAND” chariots that accompany Him. 

The battle strength of the number of horsemen in Revelation 9:16 was meant to reflect that same number of God’s chariots in Psalms 68:17.  Their mission was a God-ordained one; executing His divine purpose, with the same level of His power given to them in order to accomplish that purpose.  God had prepared that specified number of horsemen for a very particular hour, and day, and month, and year for a very specific reason: “to slay the THIRD PART OF MEN”. 

During that “second woe”, which was the sixth angel’s trumpet judgment, the number of fatalities that made up that “third part of men” was composed of #1), the death of the two individual men who were “witnesses” (Rev. 11:3-12), and #2), the 7,000 men who died (Rev. 11:13).  These deaths would make up the body count represented by that “ONE THIRD OF MEN” in Rev. 9:15-16.  This doesn’t mean that one-third of every person on the PLANET was to die at that time, but instead it was one-third of men in that CITY OF JERUSALEM who were to die  during this sixth trumpet judgment (Rev. 11:8).

Now, according to the common view of Rev. 9:16 that usually interprets this as an army of 200 MILLION, it seems quite strange that it would take 200 MILLION horsemen to manage the killing of 7,002 individuals.  Do the math.  From what I figure, that means it would require 28,563 horsemen to kill just ONE PERSON in the city of Jerusalem.  That’s an improbable ratio, and doesn’t say very much about the battle skill of the proposed number of 200 million that was supposed to be so overpowering in Rev. 9:17-19.

So, let’s go back to how Rev. 9:16 was written originally, as the YLT presents it.  “And the number of the forces of the horsemen is TWO MYRIADS OF MYRIADS, and I heard the number of them.”  This “TWO MYRIADS” is equal to TWO groups of 10,000 horsemen each.  TWENTY THOUSAND *TOTAL*. 

Remember the numbered chariots of God in Psalms 68:17 - the “TWO MYRIADS OF THOUSANDS”?  That numbered total amounted to 20,000 - NOT 200 MILLION.  It’s the same language at work here in Revelation 9:16.  This army of horsemen sent by God numbered 20,000 total, who slew those 7,002 individuals who were identified somehow as the “THIRD PART OF MEN” in Jerusalem.  This is a more realistic ratio of combatants - 20,000 killing 7,002, or an approximate 3 to 1 ratio.   

Just for an everyday comparison, here’s a common expression we might use today.  I might go into a Dunkin Donuts store and tell the salesperson “I would like to get two dozens of a box of a dozen donuts, please.”  (TWO DOZENS OF DOZENS).   Hopefully the salesperson ringing up the order wouldn’t multiply the dozens together and come up with an exaggerated order of 288 donuts!  (2 x 12 x 12).  Same thing with the “TWO MYRIADS OF MYRIADS” in Rev. 9:16.  It’s 2 x 10,000, NOT an exaggerated figure of 2 x 10,000 x 10,000. 

And the fulfillment of this 20,000 horsemen army killing those 7,002 men, or 1/3 part of men in the “great city” Jerusalem”?  It was in late AD 67 or 68 when the Idumean army of 20,000 led by four commanders (Simon, John, Jacob, and Phineas), came to the gate of Jerusalem and were denied entrance.  They broke into the city during the night of the earthquake and a fearful storm that struck the city.  By the next morning, Josephus wrote that 8,500 were dead as a combined result of the storm with the earthquake, and the Idumeans attacking the citizens.  This included the death of the two former high priest “witnesses”, (Ananus and Joshua), who were deliberately and insultingly left unburied, as Rev. 11:9 predicted would happen.

The “ONE THIRD PART OF MEN” in Jerusalem that died in this attack by the 20,000 Idumean horsemen were the followers of Ananus’ moderate party, who made up one of the three factions (1/3) that were in power at that time in the city.  This one-third of the warring parties in Jerusalem at that time was targeted for elimination by the Idumeans during this one invasion, which God had set up beforehand to occur on an exact hour, day, month, and year. 

Anyone wishing to read for themselves the description of this fulfilled prophecy of the sixth trumpet judgment starting in Rev. 9:12 and finishing up by Rev. 11:14 can find it in Josephus Wars 4.4-5 down to the last detail - especially regarding the number of 20,000 Idumean warriors in Wars 4.4.2.  Two myriads of Idumean myriads. 

The army of a supposed “200 MILLION” is a gross exaggeration, and is certainly not a threat that is hanging over our heads in the future.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 19, 2019 - 12:08:58 by 3 Resurrections »

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200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« on: Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 14:54:21 »

Offline robycop3

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #1 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 05:19:14 »
  China alone can field a 200-million person army. You're still trying to shoehorn the pret garbage into reality, but it's a square peg trying to enter a round hole.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #2 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 12:53:10 »
Hi robycop3,

Where is your scriptural exegesis to counter what I’ve said?  If you regard it as your God-given mission to eradicate Preterist-type teaching, then you must offer something of substance more than just derision and your typical presentation of a doom-and-gloom prospect for our future.  That kind of pessimism runs counter to God’s many promises for the hope-filled growth of His kingdom in this world.

It’s quite clear from the number of posted comments you have submitted on this website and the agitated manner in which you write that you consider Preterist views to be a considerable threat to the church’s doctrine.

That’s good.

The church’s doctrine on eschatology NEEDS to be challenged.  From what I’ve observed over the years, it has been drilled into the mindset of the average church-attending Christian that the church’s so-called “orthodox” stance on eschatology should not be questioned.  The vigor with which you pursue your arguments, robycop3, only serves to confirm that Preterist teaching is becoming a serious contender for the attention of those who have genuine questions about this theme that permeates the scripture.  Many are no longer satisfied with the regurgitated answers they get from church leaders who don’t know any better than to repeat what they have been taught. 

If I may be so bold, I would suggest another tactic for your energies, robycop3.  Instead of imitating a steamroller, you might try reading through Dr. Gamaliel’s advice in Acts 5:38-39.  Speaking to his fellow Sanhedrin members who were violently opposed to the “new” teaching of the gospel by Christ’s disciples, Gamaliel very wisely advised the council, “Refrain from these men, and LET THEM ALONE: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught.  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

For the sake of argument, if we presume that Preterism is totally false, then it will come to nothing automatically, and you will have wasted your energy fighting it when Preterism would have dissolved on its own accord.  But on the other hand, if Preterism has truth from God’s Word, you will have been battling against the Almighty - never a good choice, as the Apostle Paul found out on the road to Damascus.

I never expect that what I submit on the End Times forum from a Preterist perspective will be accepted by a generation exposed from infancy to a pre-mil-disp. viewpoint.  Belief based on tradition from our youth is very difficult to change.  I write for the next generation growing up in a sort of spiritual vacuum, and also for those who are seeking biblical answers to their nagging questions about certain scriptures that they have never been able to reconcile or to satisfy by the pre-mil-disp. teaching they were spoon-fed for so long.   

I was once in the same case.  By God’s grace, He has granted me answers to those nagging questions that I had about the pre-mil-disp. teaching which I grew up with. The resulting peace of mind was worth all the efforts of searching through the scripture for those answers. 

The twenty-thousand-man army is just one of those answers.  I’ve written about them before on this website at the following links, because their story is inextricably linked to that of the two witnesses:

http://gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/how-do-preterists-view-the-two-witness-of-revelation/  (reply #32)

http://gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/why-preterism-is-false/  (reply #50 and following)


Offline raggthyme13

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 02, 2019 - 05:35:16 »
Idumean myriads.. very interesting post! I do notice when those who disagree have no biblical reply they often resort to personal attacks. I always welcome solid biblical correction but rarely see it. Do you happen to believe with those who say God's word teaches a flat earth? Just curious..
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 02, 2019 - 05:38:34 by raggthyme13 »

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 02, 2019 - 05:35:16 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 02, 2019 - 11:46:52 »
Hi raggthyme13,

Thank you for reading and commenting...I always appreciate it when people can at least give a new idea some thoughtful consideration, even if they ultimately are not convinced.  Like yourself, I welcome attempts at solid biblical correction, because two heads are always better than one when it comes to chewing on scripture.

You asked about a flat earth position?  Sorry, I can’t agree with the concept, simply because the period of Noah’s flood makes it an impossibility.  We are told that the waters prevailed above all the high hills by covering them with 15 cubits of water, killing every man and beast that breathed under the whole heaven.  If water seeks the lowest level with gravity, a flat-earth scenario would make Noah’s flood an impossibility, even if we disregarded our ability today to observe the spherical nature of the globe.

Scripture’s language about God sitting on the “circle” of the earth is just as symbolic as discussions of the “4 corners of the earth”.  These “corners” actually refer specifically to the 4 quadrants of the LAND OF ISRAEL’S dimensions back when the Israelites of the Exodus were “divided into corners” (Neh. 9:22) within the land of Canaan.  (The “earth” term - tes ges - more often than not refers specifically in scripture to the LAND of Israel, and not the planet at large.)

In Ezekiel 7:2-3, the prophet talks about those “4 corners”, and it ISN’T the dimensions of a flat-earth world with square proportions.  “...Thus saith the Lord God unto the LAND OF ISRAEL; An end, the end is come upon the FOUR CORNERS OF THE LAND.  Now is the end come upon THEE,” (upon the land of Israel’s 4 corners) “and I will send mine anger upon THEE, and I will judge THEE according to thy ways, and will recompense upon THEE all thine abominations.” 

No flat-earth is under discussion here, but the 4 corners or 4 quadrants of the land of Israel that were all scheduled for judgment at that time. 

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 02, 2019 - 11:46:52 »



Offline shilohsfoal

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #5 on: Thu Sep 05, 2019 - 14:02:33 »
Now if Josephus supposedly witnessed all these things as the op suggests, then why didnt josephus write about the star falling from heaven and the smoke coming out of the Pitt and darkening the heavens?Why did no one witness anything described by John?

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #6 on: Thu Sep 05, 2019 - 20:58:50 »
Hi shilohsfoal,

You are referring to part of the 5th trumpet judgment (aka the “first woe”) which occurred on the calendar before the Roman /Jewish war started in AD 66.  That “fallen star” was given the name of “Wormwood” back in Rev. 8:10-11. 

Do you remember when the book of Jude described certain people running greedily after the error of Balaam who were called “wandering STARS”?  (Jude verse 11, 13).  This is not talking about twinkling astrological bodies in the night sky.  The word “stars” in this Jude context, as well as in Revelation 8 and 9, is referring to individuals in the land of Israel, just as Joseph once had a dream of himself and his brethren as 12 stars, and his mother and father as the moon and the sun in Genesis 37:9-10. 

Jude warned his readers against those “wandering stars”; people who walked after their own lusts, who were sensual followers of the “doctrine of Balaam” in those days.  He told them that God was “able to keep them from falling” into the same trap that the “wandering stars” had fallen prey to.

When we get to Revelation 8 and 9, there is one “star” named Wormwood that has already fallen, and that has made the “waters” bitter and deadly by his effect on them.  The name of this “fallen star” in real life was Simon Magus from Acts 8:9-24, who was well known for his sorcery, and was called “the great power of God” by the deluded, bewitched Samaritans, who were “worshipping they knew not what” as Christ once said. 

The Apostle Peter knew that Simon’s “conversion” was not genuine when he tried to bribe the apostles in order to obtain the power of the Spirit by the laying on of hands.  After that, Peter predicted to Simon that he was going to be for “a gall of bitterness and a bond of iniquity” in the future.  That “bitterness” (which the actual Wormwood plant is well known for) that Simon Magus introduced into the early church was the sensual “doctrine of Balaam”.   At least two of the seven churches in Revelation 2 were guilty of having this problem among them.  (An almost one-third ratio.)

Justin Martyr (born in Samaria) and Clement, as well as Eusebius also blame Simon Magus with being the author of the first Gentile heresies that plagued the early church.  It was Simon’s corrupt “doctrine of Balaam” that made a third of the “fountains” and “rivers of water” bitter, and caused the death of many men.  This is corrupted DOCTRINE, not babbling brooks becoming dirty and undrinkable.

Do you remember when God promised the church of Thyatira in Rev. 2:22-23 that He would “kill her children with death” if they did not turn from the teachings of “that woman Jezebel”?  This woman “prophetess” was seducing members of the Thyatira church with the same doctrine of Balaam, by teaching them to commit fornication and to eat things offered to idols. 

“That woman Jezebel” went by the real name of Helen, a former prostitute from the city of Tyre, who had become Simon Magus’ sensual sidekick in those days, and who traveled about with him, being presented by Simon as a goddess.  Eusebius mentions the utterly wanton practices that this couple Simon Magus and Helen had introduced into the churches, which at least two of the seven churches in Revelation had been plagued with.  Other NT books such as II Peter 2:12-15 speak of the problem the “doctrine of Balaam” was proving to be.

It was this “fallen star” Wormwood (Simon Magus the sorcerer) who was given a “key” to the bottomless pit in Rev. 9:1-2.  Simon had once coveted the gifts of Peter the apostle who had the power of the Spirit, and had been given the keys to the kingdom of heaven - to loose or bind things in heaven and on earth.  In a perverted, dark imitation of this, Simon Magus got what he desired - a key with the power to release evil spirits into the earth. 

Christ had once prophesied that His generation would be plagued with evil unclean spirits at a level seven times more wicked than when He was among them casting out devils.  These would return to plague that “wicked generation”, making their last state worse than their first when Christ was with them (Matt. 12:43-45).

Simon Magus the sorcerer, I believe, had a hand in releasing those unclean spirits in seven-fold numbers to deceive that wicked generation.  His false teaching kept people in the “bond of iniquity”, as Peter predicted that Simon Magus would do.  Since Satan was called the “prince of the power of the AIR”, and we are told that the smoke that the “fallen star” released from the pit darkened the AIR and the sun, that would seem to indicate the Satanic, deceptive nature of Simon’s teaching that spread out over the earth (tes ges - the land of Israel).




Offline Choir Loft

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #7 on: Sat Sep 21, 2019 - 09:01:14 »
Who hasn’t heard of the formidable army of 200 MILLION that is supposed to be gathered together in Revelation 9:16?  The assumption is taught that this incredible number must either be that of demonic forces, or possibly composed of Asian countries that could manage putting an army this large into battle. 

* * * *

The army of a supposed “200 MILLION” is a gross exaggeration, and is certainly not a threat that is hanging over our heads in the future.

It is common knowledge that the military forces of the People's Republic of China EXCEEDS two hundred million.   

Our problem isn't accepting the number, but in the logistics of the situation.   Two hundred million souls must be clothed and fed and provided with medical services as well as military equipment and ammunition - all the accouterments of a modern military force.    It's not good enough to have a huge army if you can't move them beyond the barracks and parade ground!

Have you read the news lately?  China is working on that very problem.......

It's called the BELT AND ROAD PROJECT.   Google it.

Before you field an army of any size you must prepare the ground before them.  This means logistics and trade with nations that can either support your army or simply allow its passage through their territory.

In Biblical times the people of Europe enjoyed trade with the far east by means of an extended trade route system called THE SILK ROAD.   Google it.

In 1453, when the city of Constantinople fell to Sultan Mehmed II, two things happened.   
1. Historians peg that date as the end of the Middle Ages.
2. Trade along the Silk Road between the far east and Europe was cut.

Europe was so devastated by the Muslim conquest that its leaders began looking for ways to reestablish the trade route to the east.   THE DIRECT RESULT of the Muslim conquest of Constantinople was the discovery of the New World less than fifty years later.  The discovery of America is directly related to the Muslim conquest of Constantinople.

But China also suffered from the lack of a regular trade route with the west.  It has festered in their culture ever since because the lack of a source of revenue resulted in much poverty.

Enter the new age and the realization of Chinese fortunes and profits from trade with the west. Is this a coincidence?  It is not.  EVERYTHING depends on trade with the west.

THEREFORE the government of China today has embarked on the greatest building project since the Great Wall - the BELT AND ROAD PROJECT.

Google it.   If the news stories about this project doesn't give you the creeps - then you have no mind to appreciate what it means to our present and to the future.

It means that China may soon be able to field a military presence OF ANY SIZE to the middle east and the eastern gates of Europe.

Much ado has been made of Chinese naval bases in the South China Sea.  American military sources claim its an offensive move, but if you look at the maps that show development of the BELT aspect of the project you'll see that the BELT portion consists of shipping lanes.   The Chinese military presence in the South China Sea is there to guard the sea lanes, which are of primary security interest to Chinese trade with the west.

It gets even creepier when you read about THE BELT AND ROAD PROJECT.   Check it out.  Seriously.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #8 on: Sun Sep 22, 2019 - 05:45:46 »
Hi Choir Loft,

Sorry, but your response is what is often called “newspaper exegesis”: taking the latest news and forcing the scripture to fit your interpretation of current events.

This is impossible for Revelation’s prophecies, if you are to remain faithful to the temporal restrictions that the book places upon itself.  EVERYTHING of the “UNSEALED” mysteries of future events in Revelation were said to be “AT HAND” for those who were originally reading John’s words in the first century (as both Rev. 1:3 and Rev. 22:10 plainly tell us at the introduction and the conclusion of Revelation’s revealed future prophecies.  The single exception to this rule is the “SEALED UP”, unrevealed prophecies of Rev 10:4 that would apply to us today.)

That designation of  an “AT HAND” event included this prophecy regarding the 20,000 horsemen.  It also was “AT HAND” for that first-century generation.  This means that any googling of a current possibility for a supposed 200-million army of Chinese horsemen is totally irrelevant.  (Though China might very well be included in what was NOT revealed in Rev. 10:4’s sealed-up prophecies that applied to times future to John’s first-century readers.)

Do you know how particularly God Himself defines prophecies that are “AT HAND”?  He tells you exactly what He means by that phrase in Ezekiel 12:22-28.  Here, I’ll write the whole passage, so that you don’t have to bother looking it up.

“Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are PROLONGED, and every vision faileth? 

Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, THE DAYS ARE *AT HAND*, and the effect of every vision.

For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.

For I am the Lord: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall NO MORE BE PROLONGED, for *IN YOUR DAYS*, O rebellion house, will I SAY the word, AND WILL PERFORM IT, saith the Lord GOD.

Again, the word of the Lord came to me saying,

Son of man, Behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for MANY DAYS TO COME, and he prophesieth of the TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF. 

Therefore, say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall NONE OF MY WORDS BE PROLONGED anymore, but the word which I have spoken SHALL BE DONE, saith the Lord GOD.”

Now, go apply God’s definition of “AT HAND” prophecies to Revelation’s “AT HAND” prophecies.  All those revealed prophecies would then have to be fulfilled “IN YOUR DAYS” to the ones originally reading those revealed prophecies in Revelation.  They would “NOT BE PROLONGED” into the 21st century to be fulfilled by a Chinese army, regardless of their numbers. 

According to God’s stipulated definition for “AT HAND” prophecies, for the first-century readers, God meant that “IN THEIR DAYS”, He would not only “SPEAK” His word of prophecy, but it would “COME TO PASS” in their days also.

Every word of the prophecy of the sixth trumpet judgment starting in Rev. 9:13 and ending in Rev. 11:14 related to the 20,000 horsemen already came to pass in the AD 67 or 68 Idumean attack on Jerusalem.  Google it in Josephus’ writings. 

You are 1,952 years too tardy with your interpretation for a prophecy that was “AT HAND” for John’s first-century audience.  They were reading those words of the Lord for the first time in late AD 59 or early AD 60 when John wrote Revelation - which definitely qualifies for God’s definition of an “AT HAND” prophecy, to be fulfilled IN THEIR DAYS.


Offline Choir Loft

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Re: 200 MILLION-man army? NO, it’s twenty thousand
« Reply #9 on: Mon Sep 30, 2019 - 07:15:08 »
Hi Choir Loft,

Sorry, but your response is what is often called “newspaper exegesis”: taking the latest news and forcing the scripture to fit your interpretation of current events.

This is impossible for Revelation’s prophecies, if you are to remain faithful to the temporal restrictions that the book places upon itself.  EVERYTHING of the “UNSEALED” mysteries of future events in Revelation were said to be “AT HAND” for those who were originally reading John’s words in the first century (as both Rev. 1:3 and Rev. 22:10 plainly tell us at the introduction and the conclusion of Revelation’s revealed future prophecies.  The single exception to this rule is the “SEALED UP”, unrevealed prophecies of Rev 10:4 that would apply to us today.)

That designation of  an “AT HAND” event included this prophecy regarding the 20,000 horsemen.  It also was “AT HAND” for that first-century generation.  This means that any googling of a current possibility for a supposed 200-million army of Chinese horsemen is totally irrelevant.  (Though China might very well be included in what was NOT revealed in Rev. 10:4’s sealed-up prophecies that applied to times future to John’s first-century readers.)

Do you know how particularly God Himself defines prophecies that are “AT HAND”?  He tells you exactly what He means by that phrase in Ezekiel 12:22-28.  Here, I’ll write the whole passage, so that you don’t have to bother looking it up.

“Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are PROLONGED, and every vision faileth? 

Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, THE DAYS ARE *AT HAND*, and the effect of every vision.

For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.

For I am the Lord: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall NO MORE BE PROLONGED, for *IN YOUR DAYS*, O rebellion house, will I SAY the word, AND WILL PERFORM IT, saith the Lord GOD.

Again, the word of the Lord came to me saying,

Son of man, Behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for MANY DAYS TO COME, and he prophesieth of the TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF. 

Therefore, say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall NONE OF MY WORDS BE PROLONGED anymore, but the word which I have spoken SHALL BE DONE, saith the Lord GOD.”

Now, go apply God’s definition of “AT HAND” prophecies to Revelation’s “AT HAND” prophecies.  All those revealed prophecies would then have to be fulfilled “IN YOUR DAYS” to the ones originally reading those revealed prophecies in Revelation.  They would “NOT BE PROLONGED” into the 21st century to be fulfilled by a Chinese army, regardless of their numbers. 

According to God’s stipulated definition for “AT HAND” prophecies, for the first-century readers, God meant that “IN THEIR DAYS”, He would not only “SPEAK” His word of prophecy, but it would “COME TO PASS” in their days also.

Every word of the prophecy of the sixth trumpet judgment starting in Rev. 9:13 and ending in Rev. 11:14 related to the 20,000 horsemen already came to pass in the AD 67 or 68 Idumean attack on Jerusalem.  Google it in Josephus’ writings. 

You are 1,952 years too tardy with your interpretation for a prophecy that was “AT HAND” for John’s first-century audience.  They were reading those words of the Lord for the first time in late AD 59 or early AD 60 when John wrote Revelation - which definitely qualifies for God’s definition of an “AT HAND” prophecy, to be fulfilled IN THEIR DAYS.

FOR THE INFORMATION of those perusing this discussion, it should be revealed to them that the arguments presented by 3Resurrections falls into a group of false doctrines called PRETERISM.

Google preterism.     Please inform yourself before you buy into this stuff.   For the benefit of those who don't take the time to do their own research at this moment, here is a thumbnail sketch.

Preterists argue that major prophetic portions of Scripture such as the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation were fulfilled in events surrounding the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Preterists believe that they are compelled to take such a view because Matthew 24:34 and its parallel passages say that "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." This means it had to take place in the first century, they argue. Revelation, they advocate, says something similar in the passages that say Christ is coming "quickly" or that His return is "at hand." Having settled in their mind that these prophecies had to take place in the first century, they believe they are justified in making the rest of the language fit into a local (Jerusalem), instead of a worldwide fulfillment. Most Preterists believe that we are currently living in at least an inaugurated new heavens and new earth, since all the Book of Revelation had to have a first century fulfillment.

The consequence of Preterist doctrines is that most of the common evangelical suppositions have already taken place, specifically;
- Tribulation
- Great Apostacy
- Last Days
- antichrist (any apostate teacher or system, according to Preterism, is said to be antichrist)
- The Beast (was Nero)
- False Prophet (leadership of Israel)
- Great Harlot (Jerusalem - this is an example of anti-semitic racist thinking)
- Millenium (already arrived)
- First Resurrection (already happened)
- New Creation (already begun)
- Israel (replaced by the church, a spin of the old Replacement Theology which is also anti-semitic)
- Armageddon (was figurative only, there will not be an armageddon)

In short, Preterists contend that most of the Biblical passages that one would suppose to be in the future have already happened in one way or the other - or are explained away as figures and anecdotes and parables.  In other words, the Bible isn't thoroughly specific in its prophecies.   Finally, Preterism is very anti-Jew in that it regards any Jew who doesn't join a church to be consigned by Adonai (God) to the eternal fires of perdition.  They also deny the effect of Jewish LAW upon the world and the salvation it brings.  To them, anything that smells of Jew is rejected.

"For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath." - God as quoted by Moses Deuteronomy 4:31

Preterists deny the covenant God made with Israel when HE stated that HE would not abandon or destroy them EVER.    They also deny the prophecies of Ezekiel 37, which predicted the rise of the modern State of Israel AND the current Aliyah (term used to describe the return of the Jews to Eretz Israel - land of Israel).

There are huge holes in the doctrines of Preterism.  Gaps in these logical holes are either ignored or covered up by saying the Bible doesn't say what it means and doesn't mean what it says. 

I submit that my first post on this thread hasn't been rejected by our resident Preterist because it's untrue, but because it doesn't fit with his aberrant religious world view.

That would be his problem, not mine.   Certainly not that of the reader here.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 30, 2019 - 07:18:45 by Choir Loft »