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Offline glen

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70th week already fulfilled
« on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 09:03:55 »

1) The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." This period applies to one complete, sequential block of time. This prophecy would start during the Persian period and would end during the time of the Messiah.

2) Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!

3) It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week. No hint of this gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?

4) Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of tribulation, or about any Antichrist.

5) The focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Modern interpreters have applied "the people of the prince" who would come to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (verse 26) to the Antichrist. Yet the text does not say this. In the past, that sentence has been applied to the Romans, who under Prince Titus did "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in A.D. 70.

6) "He shall confirm the covenant." Jesus Christ came "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Romans 15:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Antichrist ever said to make or confirm a covenant with anyone! The word "covenant" always applies to the Messiah, never to the Antichrist!

7) "He shall confirm the covenant with many." Jesus said, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many." Matthew 26:28. Jesus used the same words, because He knew that He was fulfilling Daniel 9:27!

8) "In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The 70th week was from A.D. 27 to 34. After three and a half years of ministry, Christ died in A.D. 31, "in the midst [middle] of the week." At the moment of His death, "the veil of the temple was rent [torn] in twain from the top to the bottom." Matthew 27:51. This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices had at that moment ceased to be of value. The Great Sacrifice had been offered!

9) "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." Jesus plainly applied this "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) to the time when His followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70. Jesus told His 12 disciples, "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [the Roman armies led by Prince Titus], then know that its desolation is near." Luke 21:20, emphasis added. Those disciples did "see" those very events. Christ’s very last words to the Pharisees from inside the second temple were, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Thus Daniel’s prophecy about Jerusalem becoming "desolate" was exactly fulfilled in A.D. 70! Jesus understood this perfectly.

10) Gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Daniel 9:24). From A.D. 27 to A.D. 34, the disciples went only "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:6. At the end of the 70 weeks, in the year A.D. 34, Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (Acts chapter 7). Then the gospel began to go to the Gentiles. In Acts chapter 9, Saul became Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles." Romans 11:13. Then in Acts chapter 10, God gave Peter a vision revealing that it was now time to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-28). Read also Acts 13:46.

The explosive evidence is overwhelming! Point by point, the events of the 70th week have already been fulfilled in the past! The following eight words found in Daniel 9:27: "confirm...covenant...many...midst...sacrific e...cease... abominations...desolate": all find a perfect fulfillment in Jesus Christ and in early Christian history.

One reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to receive its Messiah was because its leaders and scholars failed to correctly interpret the 70-week prophecy. They failed to see Jesus Christ as the Messiah who died in the midst of the 70th week. The same thing is happening today! Amazingly, sincere Christian scholars are now misinterpreting the very same prophecy.
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 09:21:33 by glen »

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70th week already fulfilled
« on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 09:03:55 »

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #1 on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 12:05:07 »
My two cents worth:

The 70th Week will begin when Israel officially acknowledges God again and the Old Covenant is reinstated.  For reasons of his own the anti-Christ will assist in this, but it’s the reinstatement of the covenant that begins the 70th week. This could happen either before or after the Temple is rebuilt, but I don’t think it will happen before Ezekiel’s battle.

For example, there’s a current news story about an 18th  century rabbinical prophecy predicting that when the Hurva synagogue in Jerusalem has been rebuilt for the 3rd time, work on the Temple will begin.  The third rebuilding of the Hurva synagogue is underway now, with a scheduled completion date of March 15, 2010.  Some have taken this as a sign that work on the Temple will begin the very next day.  Even if that happens, which I doubt, it won’t herald the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week unless Israel also announces a national return to the Mosaic covenant and reinstatement of Levitical worship.

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #1 on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 12:05:07 »

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #2 on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 14:27:49 »
The 70th week could not have been fulfilled as there as been no Second Coming to end the 70th Week, the 69th Week ended with the First Coming of Christ.
The 69 weeks ended on Palm Sunday, the day that saw the first coming of Christ as the Messiah..........So until Christ returns the 70th week cannot be fulfilled. That said there is evidence in the NT that points to the 70th week as happening in the future the first half of the tribulation:

Revelation 11:3
  And I will give power unto my two witnesses , and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260 days ), clothed in sackcloth.


Revelation 11:4-6   These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7-8   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9-12   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodiesthree days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them , and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The NT also points to the second half of the tribulation:

Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God , and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

« Last Edit: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 14:53:03 by Azrael »

Offline rezar

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #3 on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 21:59:02 »

1) The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." This period applies to one complete, sequential block of time. This prophecy would start during the Persian period and would end during the time of the Messiah.

2) Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!

3) It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week. No hint of this gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?

4) Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of tribulation, or about any Antichrist.

5) The focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Modern interpreters have applied "the people of the prince" who would come to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (verse 26) to the Antichrist. Yet the text does not say this. In the past, that sentence has been applied to the Romans, who under Prince Titus did "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in A.D. 70.

6) "He shall confirm the covenant." Jesus Christ came "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Romans 15:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Antichrist ever said to make or confirm a covenant with anyone! The word "covenant" always applies to the Messiah, never to the Antichrist!

7) "He shall confirm the covenant with many." Jesus said, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many." Matthew 26:28. Jesus used the same words, because He knew that He was fulfilling Daniel 9:27!

8) "In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The 70th week was from A.D. 27 to 34. After three and a half years of ministry, Christ died in A.D. 31, "in the midst [middle] of the week." At the moment of His death, "the veil of the temple was rent [torn] in twain from the top to the bottom." Matthew 27:51. This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices had at that moment ceased to be of value. The Great Sacrifice had been offered!

9) "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." Jesus plainly applied this "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) to the time when His followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70. Jesus told His 12 disciples, "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [the Roman armies led by Prince Titus], then know that its desolation is near." Luke 21:20, emphasis added. Those disciples did "see" those very events. Christ’s very last words to the Pharisees from inside the second temple were, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Thus Daniel’s prophecy about Jerusalem becoming "desolate" was exactly fulfilled in A.D. 70! Jesus understood this perfectly.

10) Gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Daniel 9:24). From A.D. 27 to A.D. 34, the disciples went only "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:6. At the end of the 70 weeks, in the year A.D. 34, Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (Acts chapter 7). Then the gospel began to go to the Gentiles. In Acts chapter 9, Saul became Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles." Romans 11:13. Then in Acts chapter 10, God gave Peter a vision revealing that it was now time to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-28). Read also Acts 13:46.

The explosive evidence is overwhelming! Point by point, the events of the 70th week have already been fulfilled in the past! The following eight words found in Daniel 9:27: "confirm...covenant...many...midst...sacrific e...cease... abominations...desolate": all find a perfect fulfillment in Jesus Christ and in early Christian history.

One reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to receive its Messiah was because its leaders and scholars failed to correctly interpret the 70-week prophecy. They failed to see Jesus Christ as the Messiah who died in the midst of the 70th week. The same thing is happening today! Amazingly, sincere Christian scholars are now misinterpreting the very same prophecy.


I think for the faithful believers of Christ, there was no gap in the week. 3 1/2 yrs. for Christ's ministry- 3 1/2 yrs for the Apostles to go to the lost sheep of Israel.

That would be fine except there is still an allusion to a half week for those who didn't accept the covenant. In Dan.9, the last verse, refers to AD70 & the Romans leaving the harlot desolate & totally burning her with fire.
That 1/2 week is seen in Revelation.  There is a gap for the unbelievers in the prophecy. The time, times, & a half time becomes God's wrath & the great tribulation for the unbelieving Jews.

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #3 on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 21:59:02 »

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #4 on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 22:27:51 »
 ::frustrated::

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #4 on: Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 22:27:51 »



Offline glen

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 06, 2009 - 04:56:58 »
the whole context about the prince being the antichrist is wrong, the text does not indicate it
too much emphasis is placed on a future antichrist hiding around every bible verse, this is taking away the fulfillment and power of bible prophecy
if there is a seven year tribulation, then can anyone explain why revelation indicates otherwise?
2 witnesses - 1260 days
reign of the beast 42 months
this is a total of 7 years - BUT BUT BUT, what about the previous 5 trumpets that come before the 7 years?
nowhere in the bible is a 7 year trib ever mentioned, a week yes but that is nothing to do with a tribulation period
i would not rule out a future 7 year period, but i think it would be separate from the 70th week
there is evidence the correct decree was in 457BC by artaxerxes - and continued in 445BC (i will post later on this)

Offline glen

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #6 on: Sun Dec 06, 2009 - 05:54:39 »
the messiah was cut off AFTER the 69 weeks, not at the close of it. that is what scripture says
a decree was issued by artaxerxes in 457BC and confirmed in 444BC

   
Year of Jesus' Death
The only event in the life of Jesus that was assigned a date in the Biblical record was the date for Jesus' baptism, which occurred "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar" (Luke 3:1,21), or 27 A.D., a date prophesied over 500 years earlier in the prophecy of Daniel 9:25.   All other events in Jesus life, even His birth, must be dated relative to this date.  For example, we know when Jesus was born because the Bible says that the year He was baptized, 27 A.D., "Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age." Luke 3:21-23  Therefore He must have been born around 3/4 B.C. (27 A.D. minus 30 years = 3 B.C.).       
   
To confirm that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah ("anointed one"), the divine Savior of the world, God sent Daniel the spectacular prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 which not only prophesied over 500 years in advance the very year of Jesus' baptism and "anointing" with the Holy Spirit, but also the very year of His death and its meaning as a saving act on our behalf!

Each of the last three verses of the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy foretold events that were to take place relative to both Jerusalem and the Messiah.
    Daniel 9:25 foretold the very year He would be anointed and become the Messiah, which occurred exactly as prophesied, in A.D. 27.
    Daniel 9:26 foretold that "after the sixty-two weeks (i.e., sometime after 27 A.D.), Messiah shall be cut off" (put to death).
    Daniel 9:27 prophesied about the last seven years of the 490 year prophecy, the seven years after 27 A.D., and it explicitly states that "in the middle of the week (the middle of the final 7 years of the prophecy), He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."  These phrases–"cut off" and "bring an end to sacrifice and offering"–are direct references to Jesus' death.  The "Messiah shall be cut off," put to death, and "bring an end to" the lamb sacrificial system of the Old Testament, "in the middle of" the final 7 years of this prophecy, or three and a half years after 27 A.D., which would be 31 A.D.–the very year Biblical scholars and chronologists have determined that Jesus was crucified!

The exact year of the death of no other person in history has been foretold like this.  By foretelling over 500 years in advance of the very years that the world's Messiah would be anointed for His saving mission and then die, God provided important evidence to sincere, honest-in-heart seekers that Jesus was indeed the Messiah of God, the One to whom we must look for salvation and hope.

Offline Geezer

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 15:28:35 »

1) The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." This period applies to one complete, sequential block of time. This prophecy would start during the Persian period and would end during the time of the Messiah.

Absolutely!

Quote
2) Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!

I love it.

Quote
3) It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week. No hint of this gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?

Accurate

Quote
4) Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of tribulation, or about any Antichrist.

I agree

Quote
5) The focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Modern interpreters have applied "the people of the prince" who would come to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (verse 26) to the Antichrist. Yet the text does not say this. In the past, that sentence has been applied to the Romans, who under Prince Titus did "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in A.D. 70.

Romans it was - historically.

Quote
6) "He shall confirm the covenant." Jesus Christ came "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Romans 15:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Antichrist ever said to make or confirm a covenant with anyone! The word "covenant" always applies to the Messiah, never to the Antichrist!

Specifically he was confirming the “Abrahamic Covenant

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 15:39:10 »
Glen said:

"if there is a seven year tribulation, then can anyone explain why revelation indicates otherwise?"

Personally, I believe the 7 year period refers to the period after the rapture of the Church.  I believe that the last 3 1/2 years will be what we would call tribulation ("such has never been seen, nor ever wil be seen again").

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #9 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 16:16:51 »
There will be a 3 1/2 year period where the False Prophet will reign at the end of this 3 1/2 year period he is killed and returns bigger and nastier than ever as the Anti Christ. This would complete the 7 year tribulation.

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #10 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 16:25:14 »
There will be a 3 1/2 year period where the False Prophet will reign at the end of this 3 1/2 year period he is killed and returns bigger and nastier than ever as the Anti Christ. This would complete the 7 year tribulation.

Az,

Can you help me please?  I know it's in there but I can't find where the false prophet is talked about in scripture.  Can you give me chapter and verse?  Thank you my friend.

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #11 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 17:07:34 »
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #12 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 17:38:04 »
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)

Az,

Thanks, I knew about those.  I meant the scripture that says the False prophet is the anti-christ.

Rich

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #13 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 17:50:45 »
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)

Az,

Thanks, I knew about those.  I meant the scripture that says the False prophet is the anti-christ.

Rich

There are none that I know of.  I have notes that explain this in greater detail I just cannot find the folder on my computer. I will keep looking though.

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #14 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 17:52:07 »
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)

Az,

Thanks, I knew about those.  I meant the scripture that says the False prophet is the anti-christ.

Rich

There are none that I know of.  I have notes that explain this in greater detail I just cannot find the folder on my computer. I will keep looking though.

Okay, thanks.  This is the first time I've ever seen that proposition.

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #15 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 18:01:23 »
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)

Az,

Thanks, I knew about those.  I meant the scripture that says the False prophet is the anti-christ.

Rich

There are none that I know of.  I have notes that explain this in greater detail I just cannot find the folder on my computer. I will keep looking though.

Okay, thanks.  This is the first time I've ever seen that proposition.

Well I will be the first to admit when I screw up and I did in that post I should have "allied" with the Anti Christ as we all know they are not one in the same. Until I find my folder I really cannot argue my point right now.

Offline djames1958

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #16 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 18:08:55 »
If the 69th week marks the cutting off of the Messiah - which is almost universally agreed to be in either AD 30 or 33 - and if there is no gap in the 70 weeks, then it must have fulfilled no later than AD 40 - not AD 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. And yet I have not seen anyone holding to a preterist view argue for AD 40.

Beyond this, even if arguing for AD 70, only the most incredible interpretation of Revelation could suggest that those prophecies were fulfilled to any degree even close to their stated severity. When did half of the world's population die - or even half that of the known world? Such an argument truly stretches the limits of hermeneutical credibility.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity

[removed link per forum rule 3.3]
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 08:59:57 by BondServant »

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #17 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 18:25:17 »
If the 69th week marks the cutting off of the Messiah - which is almost universally agreed to be in either AD 30 or 33 - and if there is no gap in the 70 weeks, then it must have fulfilled no later than AD 40 - not AD 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. And yet I have not seen anyone holding to a preterist view argue for AD 40.

Beyond this, even if arguing for AD 70, only the most incredible interpretation of Revelation could suggest that those prophecies were fulfilled to any degree even close to their stated severity. When did half of the world's population die - or even half that of the known world? Such an argument truly stretches the limits of hermeneutical credibility.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
www.biblicalintegrity.org

Thats the one thing that really irks my goat about some of this stuff. It's widely accepted that everyone has a difference of opinion on a lot of this thats a given. But if everyone has it figured out why are we even debating it? Some have a view that they are right and every one else is wrong, seen that before. Some straddle the fence either way. I see no need to have any discussion on this if the majority has it figured out already. Sorry not a rant just an observation that I see all to often on boards of this type.  If some one here has a land line to God that I don't know about please post his number. ::pray::

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #18 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 18:29:01 »
If the 69th week marks the cutting off of the Messiah - which is almost universally agreed to be in either AD 30 or 33 - and if there is no gap in the 70 weeks, then it must have fulfilled no later than AD 40 - not AD 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. And yet I have not seen anyone holding to a preterist view argue for AD 40.

Beyond this, even if arguing for AD 70, only the most incredible interpretation of Revelation could suggest that those prophecies were fulfilled to any degree even close to their stated severity. When did half of the world's population die - or even half that of the known world? Such an argument truly stretches the limits of hermeneutical credibility.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
www.biblicalintegrity.org

Thats the one thing that really irks my goat about some of this stuff. It's widely accepted that everyone has a difference of opinion on a lot of this thats a given. But if everyone has it figured out why are we even debating it? Some have a view that they are right and every one else is wrong, seen that before. Some straddle the fence either way. I see no need to have any discussion on this if the majority has it figured out already. Sorry not a rant just an observation that I see all to often on boards of this type.  If some one here has a land line to God that I don't know about please post his number. ::pray::

Az,

You're not up for a good pointless fight with the covenant theorists?   ::swordfight::

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #19 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 18:33:03 »
If the 69th week marks the cutting off of the Messiah - which is almost universally agreed to be in either AD 30 or 33 - and if there is no gap in the 70 weeks, then it must have fulfilled no later than AD 40 - not AD 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. And yet I have not seen anyone holding to a preterist view argue for AD 40.

Beyond this, even if arguing for AD 70, only the most incredible interpretation of Revelation could suggest that those prophecies were fulfilled to any degree even close to their stated severity. When did half of the world's population die - or even half that of the known world? Such an argument truly stretches the limits of hermeneutical credibility.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
www.biblicalintegrity.org

Thats the one thing that really irks my goat about some of this stuff. It's widely accepted that everyone has a difference of opinion on a lot of this thats a given. But if everyone has it figured out why are we even debating it? Some have a view that they are right and every one else is wrong, seen that before. Some straddle the fence either way. I see no need to have any discussion on this if the majority has it figured out already. Sorry not a rant just an observation that I see all to often on boards of this type.  If some one here has a land line to God that I don't know about please post his number. ::pray::

Az,

You're not up for a good pointless fight with the covenant theorists?   ::swordfight::

To be honest. Thats what a lot of this is, pointless to an extent. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. On with the pointless debate we will go.... rofl

Offline djames1958

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #20 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 18:42:24 »
The importance of the debate is centered not so much on the interpretation (the destination) as it is on the hermeneutics (the way you got to the destination). This is why it isn't pointless - because if the hermeneutic is consistently applied, and flawed, then this puts other interpretive results in question. This is why there are theological packages and most theological conclusions don't stand in isolation - but are interconnected with other conclusions.

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #21 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 18:46:42 »
The importance of the debate is centered not so much on the interpretation (the destination) as it is on the hermeneutics (the way you got to the destination). This is why it isn't pointless - because if the hermeneutic is consistently applied, and flawed, then this puts other interpretive results in question. This is why there are theological packages and most theological conclusions don't stand in isolation - but are interconnected with other conclusions.

Hey David,

I know Herman and he ain't got no new ticks.  They's old ones been on him for months, that's why they's so fat.

Offline Azrael

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #22 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 19:14:52 »
The importance of the debate is centered not so much on the interpretation (the destination) as it is on the hermeneutics (the way you got to the destination). This is why it isn't pointless - because if the hermeneutic is consistently applied, and flawed, then this puts other interpretive results in question. This is why there are theological packages and most theological conclusions don't stand in isolation - but are interconnected with other conclusions.

Respectfully...you could have fooled me.....anyway not here to cause trouble we should really put this back on topic....thanks for the opinion.

Offline Geezer

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #23 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 20:16:44 »
Now I remember writing on this site awhile back. I quit because my posts were ignored - just like on this thread. I'm waisting my time here. I'll let you to your sensational and exciting pseudo eschatology. A shame you will never discover the truth of what God is doing in our day.

Bye

Offline djames1958

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #24 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 20:42:04 »
Geezer,
What would you suggest that God is doing today that we're missing? (assuming you haven't left, yet)

Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #25 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 21:02:42 »
Geezer,
What would you suggest that God is doing today that we're missing? (assuming you haven't left, yet)

Guess he left.

Offline rezar

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #26 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 21:10:42 »
It's good to get left behind & saved.

Offline glen

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #27 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 22:57:55 »
If the 69th week marks the cutting off of the Messiah - which is almost universally agreed to be in either AD 30 or 33 - and if there is no gap in the 70 weeks, then it must have fulfilled no later than AD 40 - not AD 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. And yet I have not seen anyone holding to a preterist view argue for AD 40.

Beyond this, even if arguing for AD 70, only the most incredible interpretation of Revelation could suggest that those prophecies were fulfilled to any degree even close to their stated severity. When did half of the world's population die - or even half that of the known world? Such an argument truly stretches the limits of hermeneutical credibility.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
www.biblicalintegrity.org

69 weeks marks the anointing (27 or 28ad) of the messiah not the cutting off. this is what is meant by the messiah "is". when did the messiah become the messiah? when he was baptised and started his ministry

the cutting off is AFTER the 69 weeks -  halfway into the 70th
this is not the above repeated again, they are clearly different. it is so simple to understand
33 AD is impossible and contradicts the bible. jesus ministry was 3 1/2 years from the 15th year of tiberius reign(luke)
it is also clear he was born in 4BC (at the latest) - the year herod the great died - 30 years before his anointing which is totally scriptural
after the 2nd half of the week the gospel was taken to the gentiles
the desolations are not referring to the 70th week but what happens after
in case anyone was mistaken i myself am not a preterist. i believe in both historic fulfillments and future ones (revelation is the future)






Stucky

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #28 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 23:17:40 »
If the 69th week marks the cutting off of the Messiah - which is almost universally agreed to be in either AD 30 or 33 - and if there is no gap in the 70 weeks, then it must have fulfilled no later than AD 40 - not AD 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. And yet I have not seen anyone holding to a preterist view argue for AD 40.

Beyond this, even if arguing for AD 70, only the most incredible interpretation of Revelation could suggest that those prophecies were fulfilled to any degree even close to their stated severity. When did half of the world's population die - or even half that of the known world? Such an argument truly stretches the limits of hermeneutical credibility.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
www.biblicalintegrity.org

69 weeks marks the anointing (27 or 28ad) of the messiah not the cutting off. this is what is meant by the messiah "is". when did the messiah become the messiah? when he was baptised and started his ministry

the cutting off is AFTER the 69 weeks -  halfway into the 70th
this is not the above repeated again, they are clearly different. it is so simple to understand
33 AD is impossible and contradicts the bible. jesus ministry was 3 1/2 years from the 15th year of tiberius reign(luke)
it is also clear he was born in 4BC (at the latest) - the year herod the great died - 30 years before his anointing which is totally scriptural
after the 2nd half of the week the gospel was taken to the gentiles
the desolations are not referring to the 70th week but what happens after
in case anyone was mistaken i myself am not a preterist. i believe in both historic fulfillments and future ones (revelation is the future)

Very interesting and well written.  I heard a couple Bible teachers recently that claimed Jesus anointing was when He entered Jerusalem on "Palm Sunday", using the proclamation of the people of Jerusalem, scripture where Pilate identified him as King of the Jews and had that title put on the cross.  They also said something about 2 other instances where He was called the King of the Jews on Golgotha.  I'm not saying they are correct but I found it interesting.

Offline djames1958

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #29 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 23:38:28 »
The point is that you can't have a linear progression of weeks 69-70, follow the events of Revelation to any degree and still have the anti-christ be involved with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70.

Furthermore, Paul repeatedly affirmed to his audiences that they were not in the midst of the tribulation to come - and that was in the 50's - so you just have too many chronological gaps. Once a gap is introduced - whether it is 2 week, 2 years or 2000 years - the principle of gaps in prophetic events still works the same.

Dave

Offline glen

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #30 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 00:26:50 »
The point is that you can't have a linear progression of weeks 69-70, follow the events of Revelation to any degree and still have the anti-christ be involved with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70.

Furthermore, Paul repeatedly affirmed to his audiences that they were not in the midst of the tribulation to come - and that was in the 50's - so you just have too many chronological gaps. Once a gap is introduced - whether it is 2 week, 2 years or 2000 years - the principle of gaps in prophetic events still works the same.

Dave

dave
i'm not sure if you was talking to me or not
i don't think the antichrist is mentioned or anything to do with 70AD, but only future



Offline glen

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Re: 70th week already fulfilled
« Reply #31 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 00:40:18 »
jesus prophecy about tribulation is an echo of the daniel prophecy about tribulation during the 4th beast (rome)
the 4th beast (legs of iron) is clearly rome (historic)
and is also clearly future (once was, is not and yet is)
we read of michael standing up and the resurrection during the 4th beast in the book of daniel
also of jesus prophecy about his return, which is obviously future
he predicted tribulation that has already happened (during rome), and also has a future fulfillment, the same way as is predicted in daniel

Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. {10} Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.

the 70th week however is not dual
it is totally historic and nothing to do with revelation

 

     
anything