GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: A Third Temple?  (Read 765 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tyler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • Manna: 37
A Third Temple?
« on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 09:10:08 »
By whose author? This theory of rebuilding a third temple in Jerusalem would violate Jesus' own thought from the cross.
Jesus,---in His own mind: "knowing that all things were now accomplished that the scriptures might be fulfilled, said, I thirst." Here, He reflects the words of the Psalmist-- 69:21.

These "thoughts" of Jesus (on the cross) have come to men down through history via inspiration. John was there at His crucifixion. He was the only apostle to eyewitness and record this scene from Calvary.To know the mind of the Lord, and to record this prophecy as it unfolded we have to rely on the fact that ONLY the men who were credentialed to receive the Spirit of God could KNOW the MIND of God.  (John 15:26,27).

Who in control of their mental faculties today can say they have received of the Lord "words" by direct inspiration of the Spirit and verify John 14:25,26? This is why Paul would say, "God has revealed (His mind ) unto us (apostles) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things , yea the deep things of God."
Unless Jesus, via the Spirit, had not revealed what He was thinking on the cross, how would we today know that "all things were now accomplished" in the mind of Jesus?

His words, "it is finished." ( vs. 30) would not therefore include a third temple. This  thought never came from the mind of the One who came to "seek and save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).

The premillennial theory of a Jewish world empire with Jesus on a earthly throne was shattered with His words from Jerusalem, "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE." (Matthew 23:30).
The Temple in Jerusalem was the center of all Judaism. Jesus often called this structure made with hands "my Father's house," ...but now He calls this den of iniquity , "your house."
He was speaking to a "generation"  that would be "blotted out of the book of life and not be written with the righteous." (Psalms 69:28). That "generation" is now extinct as verified in the words of Jesus (Matthew 23:29-36).
And you want to resurrect a "third temple"? With what? and for whom? Ever read Ezra 2:62? Just how do you expect to over come this "registration" obstacle?
What are you going to do with the church built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone in whom all the building fitly framed together grows into an holy temple"? (Ephesians, Chapters 2, 3).


Christian Forums and Message Board

A Third Temple?
« on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 09:10:08 »

notreligus

  • Guest
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 13:31:48 »
Tyler, I think you realize that many are waiting for Old Testament prophecies to be fulfilled as they don't see them fulfilled in Christ.   In those cases the Old Testament is still overriding the New Testament/New Covenant, and this church age is just an age of grace, the mystery age of the mystery church.  The land promises to Abraham still have to be fulfilled, and Israel will someday have full control over the land promised to them with Messiah ruling over them from a Temple, with animal sacrifices restored.   This relates to the future Millennial Kingdom, or the Glorious Age.  The root belief in the church is that after God is finished with the Gentiles He will return to the Jews and reestablish His relationship with them and take over where He left off and consummate His relationship with Israel by ruling over them from Jerusalem.   

Another scenario is that a Temple must be rebuilt so that the anti-Christ will take over as a false Messiah and this occurs during the 7 year Tribulation Period.

I have two volumes of English translations of the Pseudopigrapha which are non-canonical and largely apocryphal writings which were estimated to have been written between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.   The Books of Enoch (Enoch is mentioned in Jude) and Books of Ezra are but two examples.   The Fourth Book of Ezra, which was estimated to have been written in 100 A.D., long after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, includes what I consider to be a hybrid of Matthew 24 and the Book of Revelation (i.e. contains similar language and information), states that Messiah will drive out all of the Gentiles from Jerusalem and set up His earthly kingdom, but in the Book of Ezra it is stated that this "millennium" will last for four hundred years and then Messiah will die.   Now we know that this does not fit with our traditional canon of Scriptures, but I think that the timing of the writing proves that the Jews were still convinced that Christ was not their Messiah and the Messiah was still going to come and set up a kingdom for their exclusive benefit.   The early church were Jews and it's hard to conceive that they were not affected by these writings.   I've barely scratched the surface in reading these texts but I have read - and not yet confirmed - that some of the writings that were completed before Christ came affected the Jewish attitude toward Him during His first coming.   They did not expect Him to be deity but a man who would lead them to overthrow the Romans.   They were looking for a warrior and not a Savior and Reconciler of Mankind.   They followed a warrior 60 years after A.D 70 during the Second Jewish Revolt.   The bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is that we in the church are letting this Jewish influence affect our views to the point that we are willing to accept an alternate Christ.   Paul warned us of those who would proclaim "another Jesus" with an alternate gospel.   Paul's call to take the Gospel to the Gentiles was not popular amongst Jews or the circumcision.   

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 13:31:48 »

Offline val5662

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 13:41:44 »
Tyler....
Yes there WILL be a third temple built soon.
It IS Biblical with scriptures explaining this event.
Here is a good web site with a very good explanation:
http://robertcliftonrobinson.com/2015/09/21/the-seven-year-peace-plan-and-rebuilding-the-third-temple-in-israel/
Have a great day! ::smile::
Val

Offline Rob

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 17:11:49 »
By whose author? This theory of rebuilding a third temple in Jerusalem would violate Jesus' own thought from the cross.
Jesus,---in His own mind: "knowing that all things were now accomplished that the scriptures might be fulfilled, said, I thirst." Here, He reflects the words of the Psalmist-- 69:21.

These "thoughts" of Jesus (on the cross) have come to men down through history via inspiration. John was there at His crucifixion. He was the only apostle to eyewitness and record this scene from Calvary.To know the mind of the Lord, and to record this prophecy as it unfolded we have to rely on the fact that ONLY the men who were credentialed to receive the Spirit of God could KNOW the MIND of God.  (John 15:26,27).

Who in control of their mental faculties today can say they have received of the Lord "words" by direct inspiration of the Spirit and verify John 14:25,26? This is why Paul would say, "God has revealed (His mind ) unto us (apostles) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things , yea the deep things of God."
Unless Jesus, via the Spirit, had not revealed what He was thinking on the cross, how would we today know that "all things were now accomplished" in the mind of Jesus?

His words, "it is finished." ( vs. 30) would not therefore include a third temple. This  thought never came from the mind of the One who came to "seek and save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).

The premillennial theory of a Jewish world empire with Jesus on a earthly throne was shattered with His words from Jerusalem, "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE." (Matthew 23:30).
The Temple in Jerusalem was the center of all Judaism. Jesus often called this structure made with hands "my Father's house," ...but now He calls this den of iniquity , "your house."
He was speaking to a "generation"  that would be "blotted out of the book of life and not be written with the righteous." (Psalms 69:28). That "generation" is now extinct as verified in the words of Jesus (Matthew 23:29-36).
And you want to resurrect a "third temple"? With what? and for whom? Ever read Ezra 2:62? Just how do you expect to over come this "registration" obstacle?
What are you going to do with the church built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone in whom all the building fitly framed together grows into an holy temple"? (Ephesians, Chapters 2, 3).
e
Tyler you are right! There will not be a third physical temple built. The temple in Ezekiel is the true temple, the body of Christ. The one where are are lively stones offering up spiritual sacrifices.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 17:11:49 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12331
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 18:01:53 »
Do you suppose God is up in heaven thinking,

"Well I knocked down the first two temples and burned them with fire... surely they don't think I want another one?!?"

Jarrod

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 18:01:53 »



Offline val5662

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 18:39:36 »
Rob and Wycliffes_Shillelagh.....
There will be a third temple built.I gave a link in my post just above your last posts, to just one web site that explains it well.
Just Google it for more web sites.
Please read that. ::smile::
Val

Offline Rob

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 19:07:28 »
Rob and Wycliffes_Shillelagh.....
There will be a third temple built.I gave a link in my post just above your last posts, to just one web site that explains it well.
Just Google it for more web sites.
Please read that. ::smile::
Val
Val the website starts out with an unbiblical statement. Neither a seven year tribulation nor a seven year peace plan for Israel can be found anywhere in the bible.

"The beginning of the seven year Tribulation period is marked by a seven year peace plan for Israel, with the surrounding Arab nations and the right to rebuild their temple on the existing Temple Mount. For many years, we have wondered how this would ever be possible with the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Islam’s third holiest site, already occupying this space."

Offline val5662

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 19:39:20 »
Rob....
I will tell you how to find the info and scriptures that prophesy about what I mentioned.
A lot of websites have good info,some don't.
Here is what you Google:
Seven year peace plan
Most sites give you scriptures related to all this.
This subject is REALLY important for you if you have never heard about it.Seriously! ::smile::
Val

Offline Rob

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 19:49:56 »
Rob....
I will tell you how to find the info and scriptures that prophesy about what I mentioned.
A lot of websites have good info,some don't.
Here is what you Google:
Seven year peace plan
Most sites give you scriptures related to all this.
This subject is REALLY important for you if you have never heard about it.Seriously! ::smile::
Val
I've heard about it, I just don't agree with it. The 7 year peace treaty comes from Daniel 9:27 which is talking about Christ and not antichrist. Christ confirmed the new covenant and caused the need for sacrifices to be done away with. I know a lot of people don't believe that way and that's ok, but I have no doubt this is talking about Christ.  ::smile::

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 20:38:37 »
Do you suppose God is up in heaven thinking,

"Well I knocked down the first two temples and burned them with fire... surely they don't think I want another one?!?"

Jarrod

The problem with that thinking is both temples were destroyed as a sign of judgment on Israel, yet He still called for their construction.

Offline val5662

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 21:09:58 »
Rob....
I see you are not open to thinking you might be wrong,
so I will just say we can agree to disagree. ::smile::
By the way, there are a schwack of different scriptures prophesying this event.
Val

LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Oct 26, 2015 - 22:29:57 »
I honestly wouldn't put it past the Lord to create a physical Temple for His physical body to reside in. I wouldn't even put it past Him to continue animal sacrifices, both as a reminder. But even with that said, that physical temple and animal sacrifice would still be signs pointing to the ultimate Temple of God and ultimate sacrifice of the Lamb.

Offline Tyler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • Manna: 37
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 05:20:08 »
notreligus: "Tyler, I think you realize that many are waiting for Old Testament prophecies to be fulfilled as they don't see them fulfilled in Christ.   In those cases the Old Testament is still overriding the New Testament/New Covenant, and this church age is just an age of grace, the mystery age of the mystery church.  The land promises to Abraham still have to be fulfilled, and Israel will someday have full control over the land promised to them with Messiah ruling over them from a Temple, with animal sacrifices restored.   This relates to the future Millennial Kingdom, or the Glorious Age.  The root belief in the church is that after God is finished with the Gentiles He will return to the Jews and reestablish His relationship with them and take over where He left off and consummate His relationship with Israel by ruling over them from Jerusalem."

Thanks for the come back notreligus. Manna to you.
I find the sad part of temple rebuilding is the ignorance of the "ACCOMPLISHMENT" of the cross to the many who follow Jesus. Not comprehending God's Son as the FINAL Sacrifice on an alter that He created from His mind before the foundation of the world.

The Patriarchal alters that were built by the heads of families prior to the time of Moses know as the Messianic nation (i.e. Abraham), were  but a shadow of the cross. They were temporary: made with wood, stone and earth to be torn down "done away."

The cross at Calvary, where our Lord was sacrificed for the sins of all mankind was the FINAL alter as signified by Abraham in Genesis 22:8 "God will provide."
The Temple that was built by the hands of men in Jerusalem that would house the Jewish alter to sacrifice lambs, goats, bulls, etc., would also come down as did the Patriarchal alters. It did in 70 A.D. This alter was found temporary, as were the Patriarchal alters.

A "third temple"? Just what would this temple be a shadow of?
To go back and sacrifice animals? Just what would this accomplish?
This line of thinking is just plain ignorance of what the Atonement is about that was conceived in the mind of God.

In His death (at Calvary), Jesus shed His blood. The blood of animals was no longer acceptable to a righteous God for the remission of sins.
Jesus did NOT enter into the holy place made with hands, but into heaven itself with the shedding of His blood ONCE and for all.   (Hebrews 9:11ff). There is a certain religion that has not figured this out yet.
This "third temple." Will it be made with "HANDS"? For WHAT purpose? Good grief temple builders! how are you going to hang the veil in this third temple since the original has been "rent in twain from the top to the bottom" (Matthew 27:51, KJV)?
You are aware that this veil separated the Jewish race from the Gentiles? In believing this, there must be a reestablishment of the Mosaic Law.
Have you given any consideration that Jesus "NAILED the Law to His cross? This law has been "done away." ( II Corinthians 3:7).

Have you really stopped to consider how ignorant of His Sacrifice for your sins at Calvary you are in believing in the construction of a "third temple"?

LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 06:25:10 »
Was animal sacrifices ever accepted to begin with? He even said He desires mercy and not sacrifices.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6308
  • Manna: 336
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 09:20:46 »
Have you really stopped to consider how ignorant of His Sacrifice for your sins at Calvary you are in believing in the construction of a "third temple"?
God was forever finished with an earthly temple made with hand at the cross, and He is now building a holy temple in Christ. He is the Chief Corner stone of that holy temple. There are stones being laid in this Temple which are Gold, Silver, and Precious. And then there are other stones which are of wood, hay, and stubble. Judgment day will reveal which is which. This is image of the Holy Temple of God which at the end of the World will have great apostasy stand in it. It will not be a physical building in Jerusalem. The Jewish temple fell once at the cross, when the vial of that temple was rent in twain from top to bottom~the mysteries of God would soon be revealed by the apostles as to WHY God was forever finished with the Jewish temple of the OT. If we forget what some Theologians say, and rely solely upon what the Bible declares, then we see that the Holy Temple (after the cross) is the Congregation of God, and the stones of The Holy Temple are representative of professed Christians. In other words, those people of the Church are the stones. Some good and precious, and some sub-standard and worthless. Some will burn, and some will not. And this is not some theologian's interpretation, this is directly from the Word of God.
Quote
Ephesians 2:20-22~"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
There it is in God's Word, for all to see. We (the Church) are the earthly representation of the Holy Temple of God (after the Cross). God said that, not Man. Man says the Holy Temple will be made with hands and will consists of literal bricks and Mortar, but God defines it differently after Christ fulfilled it. These teachers are making the exact same mistake that the Jewish people made when Jesus told them as much. When Jesus threw the Buyers and Sellers out of the Temple, the people asked for a sign showing He had authority to do these things? In reply, Jesus gave them a sign. He said, "Destroy this Temple and in 3 days I will raise it up." Yet all the people could think about was the literal Temple that they were standing in front of which He had just thrown the buyers and Sellers out of. Their minds were on the earthly or literal bricks and Mortar Temple. But God's ways were far above man's ways, and He wasn't talking about that Temple building, He was talking about the Body of Christ. You would have thought Christians would have learned a lesson. Because that is exactly why it is there. As a lesson to us. When the scriptures said that Elias must come first, the people were baffled, because John the Baptist wasn't Elias incarnate. But nevertheless he 'was' the fulfillment of that scripture of Elijah's coming. The people just didn't understand how God uses prophecy in the spiritual sense. John the Baptist wasn't literally Elijah, but he came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah. In other words, Spiritually speaking (Luke 1:17), he was as Elijah because he had the same Spirit of witness and prophecy. Christians just don't seem to learn from Biblical History. Again, we can see how the people in the time of the first advent thought that Christ came to set up a earthly Kingdom. They didn't understand that His Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom, and He didn't come to reign on an earthly throne, but that by his ascension to the throne, we would become kings and priests unto our God and reign on earth through Him. Setting up an earthly Kingdom is man's idea. Building a third Jewish temple is man's ideal, not the truth of the word of God.  Likewise, the old Temple fell at the cross, and the Building Again is in Christ. It's foundation is the Apostles, and we are built up on them.
Quote
1st Peter 2:5~"Ye also as living Stones, are built up a spiritual house.."
That's not speculation on the stones of the Temple, or from the desks of archaeologists, or the pens of secular historians. That's not from the mouth of man, that's the Word directly from the mouth of God. The Church is the Temple of God that was promised to be built, and its fulfillment is at hand.  There is not another one yet to come, and it's pure folly to believe that one yet shall be built, where animals sacrifice once again shall occur! That's border line of blasphemy.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 09:24:22 by RB »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12331
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 14:19:10 »
Do you suppose God is up in heaven thinking,

"Well I knocked down the first two temples and burned them with fire... surely they don't think I want another one?!?"

Jarrod

The problem with that thinking is both temples were destroyed as a sign of judgment on Israel, yet He still called for their construction.
I don't see it that way. 

From what I can tell, God allowed the construction of the temples as a burden and punishment on Israel, and it was their destruction that liberated them both financially and geographically, to fulfill the destiny that they have in Abraham.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12331
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 14:20:27 »
One more thing...  haven't there already been 3 temples?

1. Solomon
2. Ezra/Nehemiah
3. Herod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12331
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 14:31:45 »
And while we're at it, check out the witness of the first Christian martyr, as regards tabernacles and temples:

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness as [God] had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. This [tabernacle] also our fathers that came after brought in with Joshua into the land of the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; who found favor before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

But Solomon built him n house.

But the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands; as the prophet says, "Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will you build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest? Hasn't my hand made all these things?"

You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Ghost!  As your fathers [did], so [do] you!  [Acts 7:44-51]


Isn't this an indiction of the existence of the temple!  Stephen condemns the current Jewish leadership for their temple-mongering, on the basis that even the first temple was made in error.  God called for a tabernacle.  But Solomon built him a house.

Jarrod

Offline Tyler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • Manna: 37
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 14:47:24 »
Wycliffess: "

One more thing...  haven't there already been 3 temples?

1. Solomon
2. Ezra/Nehemiah
3. Herod

True....and God is now out of the temple building business. Jesus said, "upon this rock I will build my church." Now, is the "rock" Peter or the confession that he made? "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Those that now occupy part of Palestine refuse to accept Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Messiah. Another temple would do what to change their minds?




LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 16:23:55 »
Do you suppose God is up in heaven thinking,

"Well I knocked down the first two temples and burned them with fire... surely they don't think I want another one?!?"

Jarrod

The problem with that thinking is both temples were destroyed as a sign of judgment on Israel, yet He still called for their construction.
I don't see it that way. 

From what I can tell, God allowed the construction of the temples as a burden and punishment on Israel, and it was their destruction that liberated them both financially and geographically, to fulfill the destiny that they have in Abraham.

Jarrod

If that was so, then why did God call down fire from heaven as a sign of blessings in consecrating the first temple? When the Lord died, the curtain in the temple ripped, signifying the separation is now done. Meaning God's presence surely existed in both temples.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12331
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Oct 27, 2015 - 17:35:57 »
Do you suppose God is up in heaven thinking,

"Well I knocked down the first two temples and burned them with fire... surely they don't think I want another one?!?"

Jarrod

The problem with that thinking is both temples were destroyed as a sign of judgment on Israel, yet He still called for their construction.
I don't see it that way. 

From what I can tell, God allowed the construction of the temples as a burden and punishment on Israel, and it was their destruction that liberated them both financially and geographically, to fulfill the destiny that they have in Abraham.

Jarrod

If that was so, then why did God call down fire from heaven as a sign of blessings in consecrating the first temple? When the Lord died, the curtain in the temple ripped, signifying the separation is now done. Meaning God's presence surely existed in both temples.
1 Kings 8 contains the dedication of the temple and Solomon's prayer and benediction.  I just re-read it, but I do not find where fire descends from heaven?  Am I looking in the wrong chapter?  I did find this...

[1Ki 8:27 KJV] 27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Solomon himself at least understood that building God a house was something of a futile endeavor, as God would not be confined to the house.

As for the ripping of the temple veil, I fail to see how God smashing up part of the Temple that stood between the Ark and the people qualifies as an endorsement?

I will stick with Stephen's testimony, and that of the prophets - God does not live in temples made by human hands.

Jarrod

Offline Tyler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • Manna: 37
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Oct 28, 2015 - 11:02:27 »
R.B...."God was forever finished with an earthly temple made with hand at the cross, and He is now building a holy temple in Christ. He is the Chief Corner stone of that holy temple. There are stones being laid in this Temple which are Gold, Silver, and Precious. And then there are other stones which are of wood, hay, and stubble. Judgment day will reveal which is which. This is image of the Holy Temple of God which at the end of the World will have great apostasy stand in it. It will not be a physical building in Jerusalem. The Jewish temple fell once at the cross, when the vial of that temple was rent in twain from top to bottom~the mysteries of God would soon be revealed by the apostles as to WHY God was forever finished with the Jewish temple of the OT. If we forget what some Theologians say, and rely solely upon what the Bible declares, then we see that the Holy Temple (after the cross) is the Congregation of God, and the stones of The Holy Temple are representative of professed Christians. In other words, those people of the Church are the stones. Some good and precious, and some sub-standard and worthless. Some will burn, and some will not. And this is not some theologian's interpretation, this is directly from the Word of God."

Amen brother---this is why I cannot understand why this country would become tangled in the problem brought about by the old League of Nations in 1948. The British "mandate" or "Balfour Declaration" written in 1917 by the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Balfour that brought the "Zionist" (a product of the Jewish mind as a political organization created in Basil Switzerland, 1897) to power as a national home for those of the Jewish faith.

America's President, Harry S. Truman, a strong advocate that the Jewish people were entitled to Palestine ("Eretz Israel") was instrumental in America joining with Great Briton and France in making the Balfour mandate a political move in the partition of Palestine.

With this mandate, we now have "Christians" who adhere to the "restoration of Israel" urging that America support Israel at all cost. These are the same misguided souls who believe a "third temple" MUST be erected on the temple mount before Jesus returns. All one has to do is watch the evening news to see how this mandate that divided Palestine has worked out.
American blood and dollars in protecting a religion long ago given up on by a holy God. "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." 

Think about it...dispensational premillennial eschatology. This is to say that the New Testament answers to the Old, that modern Jews are the people of God first----the church second, and that modern Israel anticipates a thousand year Jewish world empire with Jesus on a Jerusalem throne. This is why TV Evangelists like John Hagee, Hal Lindsey and a host of lesser lights teach that Israel must be honored and protected by the church, Israel's official hatred of Christ notwithstanding. Grace bows to race, faith to flesh.
Really? are we to believe that the credibility of the New Testament hangs on the survival of the state of Israel with a third temple?

Offline PeteWaldo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Saved by grace through faith
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 12:27:45 »
Have you really stopped to consider how ignorant of His Sacrifice for your sins at Calvary you are in believing in the construction of a "third temple"?
God was forever finished with an earthly temple made with hand at the cross, and He is now building a holy temple in Christ. He is the Chief Corner stone of that holy temple. There are stones being laid in this Temple which are Gold, Silver, and Precious. And then there are other stones which are of wood, hay, and stubble. Judgment day will reveal which is which. This is image of the Holy Temple of God which at the end of the World will have great apostasy stand in it. It will not be a physical building in Jerusalem. The Jewish temple fell once at the cross, when the vial of that temple was rent in twain from top to bottom~the mysteries of God would soon be revealed by the apostles as to WHY God was forever finished with the Jewish temple of the OT. If we forget what some Theologians say, and rely solely upon what the Bible declares, then we see that the Holy Temple (after the cross) is the Congregation of God, and the stones of The Holy Temple are representative of professed Christians. In other words, those people of the Church are the stones. Some good and precious, and some sub-standard and worthless. Some will burn, and some will not. And this is not some theologian's interpretation, this is directly from the Word of God.
Quote
Ephesians 2:20-22~"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
There it is in God's Word, for all to see. We (the Church) are the earthly representation of the Holy Temple of God (after the Cross).

Very good post brother. I have very little to add but will take the liberty to embellish a little. But are we a representation of the Holy Temple of God, or are we very literally the temple of God?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

God said that, not Man. Man says the Holy Temple will be made with hands and will consists of literal bricks and Mortar, but God defines it differently after Christ fulfilled it.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

These teachers are making the exact same mistake that the Jewish people made when Jesus told them as much. When Jesus threw the Buyers and Sellers out of the Temple, the people asked for a sign showing He had authority to do these things? In reply, Jesus gave them a sign. He said, "Destroy this Temple and in 3 days I will raise it up." Yet all the people could think about was the literal Temple that they were standing in front of which He had just thrown the buyers and Sellers out of. Their minds were on the earthly or literal bricks and Mortar Temple.

Please allow me expand the passage a little: John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus did indeed build His temple in 3 days just as He indicated He could, accomplished through His crucifixion, death and resurrection from the dead. His disciples remembered he had said that, and believed the scripture, but so many today seem not to have.

But God's ways were far above man's ways, and He wasn't talking about that Temple building, He was talking about the Body of Christ. You would have thought Christians would have learned a lesson. Because that is exactly why it is there. As a lesson to us. When the scriptures said that Elias must come first, the people were baffled, because John the Baptist wasn't Elias incarnate. But nevertheless he 'was' the fulfillment of that scripture of Elijah's coming. The people just didn't understand how God uses prophecy in the spiritual sense. John the Baptist wasn't literally Elijah, but he came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah. In other words, Spiritually speaking (Luke 1:17), he was as Elijah because he had the same Spirit of witness and prophecy. Christians just don't seem to learn from Biblical History. Again, we can see how the people in the time of the first advent thought that Christ came to set up a earthly Kingdom. They didn't understand that His Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom, and He didn't come to reign on an earthly throne, but that by his ascension to the throne, we would become kings and priests unto our God and reign on earth through Him.

And He did indeed usher in His kingdom. Indeed I am my brother John's companion in the tribulation and in the kingdom of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Luke 9:27, Mark 9:1)

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Setting up an earthly Kingdom is man's idea. Building a third Jewish temple is man's ideal, not the truth of the word of God.  Likewise, the old Temple fell at the cross, and the Building Again is in Christ. It's foundation is the Apostles, and we are built up on them.
Quote
1st Peter 2:5~"Ye also as living Stones, are built up a spiritual house.."
That's not speculation on the stones of the Temple, or from the desks of archaeologists, or the pens of secular historians. That's not from the mouth of man, that's the Word directly from the mouth of God. The Church is the Temple of God that was promised to be built, and its fulfillment is at hand.  There is not another one yet to come, and it's pure folly to believe that one yet shall be built, where animals sacrifice once again shall occur! That's border line of blasphemy.

I have concluded the subject of a rebuilt temple from a Christian perspective, using the same language myself, brother.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 12:36:21 by PeteWaldo »

Offline PeteWaldo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Saved by grace through faith
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 13:10:29 »
R.B...."God was forever finished with an earthly temple made with hand at the cross, and He is now building a holy temple in Christ. He is the Chief Corner stone of that holy temple. There are stones being laid in this Temple which are Gold, Silver, and Precious. And then there are other stones which are of wood, hay, and stubble. Judgment day will reveal which is which. This is image of the Holy Temple of God which at the end of the World will have great apostasy stand in it. It will not be a physical building in Jerusalem. The Jewish temple fell once at the cross, when the vial of that temple was rent in twain from top to bottom~the mysteries of God would soon be revealed by the apostles as to WHY God was forever finished with the Jewish temple of the OT. If we forget what some Theologians say, and rely solely upon what the Bible declares, then we see that the Holy Temple (after the cross) is the Congregation of God, and the stones of The Holy Temple are representative of professed Christians. In other words, those people of the Church are the stones. Some good and precious, and some sub-standard and worthless. Some will burn, and some will not. And this is not some theologian's interpretation, this is directly from the Word of God."

Amen brother---this is why I cannot understand why this country would become tangled in the problem brought about by the old League of Nations in 1948. The British "mandate" or "Balfour Declaration" written in 1917 by the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Balfour that brought the "Zionist" (a product of the Jewish mind as a political organization created in Basil Switzerland, 1897) to power as a national home for those of the Jewish faith.

America's President, Harry S. Truman, a strong advocate that the Jewish people were entitled to Palestine ("Eretz Israel") was instrumental in America joining with Great Briton and France in making the Balfour mandate a political move in the partition of Palestine.

With this mandate, we now have "Christians" who adhere to the "restoration of Israel" ......

The restoration of Jews to their land is a very physical and historical matter of fact. Jews restoring that land from the utter desolation of the early 19th century to becoming one of the most technologically advanced and leading global economies, as well as a geopolitical focus of the world. All that remains is for one to decide whether that restoration is of the Lord, or is of Satan. The history you reported begins a little late. Let alone that great men of God of the Reformation knew through Bible prophecy, that Jews would be restored to their land, centuries before that restoration began to take place.

Thomas Brightman 1562-1607: "The restoring of the Jewes and their callinge to the faith of Christ after the utter overthrow of their three enemies is set forth in livelie colours." "Shall they return to Jerusalem again?" "There is nothing more certain: the prophets do everywhere confirm it and beat upon it."

..... urging that America support Israel at all cost.

Matthew Henry 1662-1714: "If God will build Jerusalem for the people and their comfort, they must inhabit it for him and his glory. The promises and privileges with which God's people are blessed, should engage us to join them, whatever it costs us."

Israel is the only country in the Middle East that shares our western values, while Israel's neighbors whom you tacitly support by railing against Israel, have State statutes that provide the death penalty for leaving Islam, or even for speech that is unapproved.

These are the same misguided souls who believe a "third temple" MUST be erected on the temple mount before Jesus returns.

That's the problem with reckless generalization. As you can see from my prior post, I am not a champion of a third temple, since I believe that Jesus already built it and also ushered in His kingdom. My approach to Bible prophecy is in the tradition of those great men of God of the Reformation of historicism. The same approach through which all Jews and Christians recognize Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled (and most likely the church for its first 1800 years).

All one has to do is watch the evening news to see how this mandate that divided Palestine has worked out.

But your narrow focus ignores the Islamic slaughter of Christians in Nigeria, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and much of the rest of the world, with tens of thousands of deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world just since 9-11. If we look around the world we should be able to see that Israel is just another front in the 1400 year ambition of Islamic conquest of the world. Because it's their job:

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....

Surah 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an.....

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

American blood and dollars in protecting a religion long ago given up on by a holy God. "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." 

Think about it...dispensational premillennial eschatology. This is to say that the New Testament answers to the Old, that modern Jews are the people of God first----the church second, and that modern Israel anticipates a thousand year Jewish world empire with Jesus on a Jerusalem throne. This is why TV Evangelists like John Hagee, Hal Lindsey and a host of lesser lights teach that Israel must be honored and protected by the church, Israel's official hatred of Christ notwithstanding. Grace bows to race, faith to flesh.
Really? are we to believe that the credibility of the New Testament hangs on the survival of the state of Israel with a third temple?

Offline TonkaTim

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
  • Manna: 64
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 17:01:11 »
PeteWaldo, So much of these two posts above contain  so much truth & I agree with most of it. But you are making a logical fallacy statement when you say "while Israel's neighbors whom you tacitly support by railing against Israel". It is no different if one makes the same generalization in politics. If one criticizes the democrats does not automatically make one a tacit supporter of the republicans or vice-versa. It would also be the same logical fallacy of saying if one criticizes a Christian doctrine they are a tacit supporter of atheists.

With the above said. Tyler told truth in his post & it does not make him a tacit supporter of any of Israel's neighbors. As you appropriately pointed out that Islam is an antichrist religion, it is far from the only antichrist religion.

All belief systems that deny Jesus is the Christ is antichrist including Talmudic Judaism. When antichrist apposes itself it is not a good idea to choose a side in the conflicts of antichrist. Which politically our foreign policy has done as well. In the conflict between the Sunni & Shia antichrist sects they have chosen the Sunni antichrist sect.

The Bible tells us not to support antichrist:
1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

It doesn't matter which antichrist sect one choose to bless or help out (bid him God speed) the end result is the same, one becomes a "partaker of his evil deeds"

Offline PeteWaldo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Saved by grace through faith
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 18:07:44 »
PeteWaldo, So much of these two posts above contain  so much truth & I agree with most of it. But you are making a logical fallacy statement when you say "while Israel's neighbors whom you tacitly support by railing against Israel".

There are only two sides in the conflict. Israeli Muslims VS Israeli non-Muslims. If he was railing against the west and the rest of the world, meddling in Israel's right to defend the citizens and democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, I misunderstood his post and would agree with him. It is a shame that the world didn't simply stand back and shut up and let Israel protect themselves, the way that any other nation believes they have a right to do. But the meddling resulted in the repeated hobbling of Israel to defend itself, that then required addressing the problems western intervention created.

It is no different if one makes the same generalization in politics. If one criticizes the democrats does not automatically make one a tacit supporter of the republicans or vice-versa. It would also be the same logical fallacy of saying if one criticizes a Christian doctrine they are a tacit supporter of atheists.

The example of an equivalent to your misguided comparisons, of criticizing a policy of democrats or a doctrine within Christianity, might be "gee I don't like the way Muslims fire rockets into Israel targeting civilians".
The comparisons you attempted are neither relevant nor anything like comparable. There are only two sides. Perhaps if I put it another way:

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Or put as your parents may have, "birds of a feather flock together".

So can you list some of the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree?

With the above said. Tyler told truth in his post & it does not make him a tacit supporter of any of Israel's neighbors. As you appropriately pointed out that Islam is an antichrist religion, it is far from the only antichrist religion.

All belief systems that deny Jesus is the Christ is antichrist including Talmudic Judaism. When antichrist apposes itself it is not a good idea to choose a side in the conflicts of antichrist.

So what do you make of this passage, and particularly this verse in it:

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Which politically our foreign policy has done as well.

Politically, the conflict in Israel is between Israeli Muslims VS Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arabs. It is about the Islamic conquest of the world with Israel being just another front in that imperialistic conquest.

Wikipedia article:  "In contrast, a poll of 507 Arab-Israelis conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute in 2007 found that 75 percent profess support for Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state which guarantees equal rights for minorities. Israeli Arab support for a constitution in general was 88 percent.[31]"

Shouldn't be a surprising statistic since they well understand that the alternative that would ultimately be visited upon them is the sharia law as exampled in the neighboring Islamic countries.
U.S. foreign policy supports the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State that protects the freedom, liberty and right to self-determination of Israeli Jews, Christians non-Muslim Arabs, as well as Israeli Muslims who enjoy more freedom in Israel than Muslims do  in any Islam controlled country on earth.

Do you see a difference between the Israeli's defense of their country and citizens, and the imperialistic aggression of their neighbors that have promised to kill the Jews and drive them into the sea, or are those two goals morally equivalent in your eyes?

In the conflict between the Sunni & Shia antichrist sects they have chosen the Sunni antichrist sect.

The Bible tells us not to support antichrist:
1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

It doesn't matter which antichrist sect one choose to bless or help out (bid him God speed) the end result is the same, one becomes a "partaker of his evil deeds"

So do you believe the restoration of Jews to the land Yahweh gave them as an everlasting possession through an everlasting covenant, is of the Lord and fulfillment of Bible prophecy, or is it of Satan? Or perhaps just some sort of a weird historical accident?
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 09:07:28 by PeteWaldo »

Offline PeteWaldo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Saved by grace through faith
Re: A Third Temple?
« Reply #26 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 05:02:57 »
Amen brother---this is why I cannot understand why this country would become tangled in the problem brought about by the old League of Nations in 1948. The British "mandate" or "Balfour Declaration" written in 1917 by the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Balfour that brought the "Zionist" (a product of the Jewish mind as a political organization created in Basil Switzerland, 1897) to power as a national home for those of the Jewish faith.

Allow me to further explain my earlier comment "The history you reported begins a little late."

Your post demonstrates the fruit of supersessionism as well as apparent ignorance to the modern (and perhaps ancient) history of Israel. The problem in Israel today, was "brought about by" THE false prophet Muhammad about 1400 years ago. Just like the problems in Nigeria, Kenya, Indonesia, India, Afghanistan, Iraq and everywhere else we find even a small presence of the followers of Muhammad.

CNS reports: "Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC)."

That was for the year 2011, and that percentage didn't even include Shiite Muslim terrorist murders. Nor does it include the countless slain in battlefield casualties, as a result of financing of various paramilitary terrorist groups, by internationally-recognized-as-terrorist-nation-States like Iran. Thus it should not be difficult for all non-Muslims to see that the world would be largely at peace today, if it wasn't binding on Muhammad's followers in the Quran, to "fight and slay" non-Muslims in the "cause" of "Allah".

In the case of Israel it includes hatred specifically directed at Jews. Islam's hatred of Jews is rooted in Muhammad's hatred of Jews, and resulting genocide of the Jewish men and boys of the peaceful farming community of the Banu Qurayza and rape and sexual enslavement of their women and little girls, for not receiving Muhammad as a prophet. Their hatred of Jews and ambition of genocide continues without apology today, because of the Quran and hadith.

Sahih Muslim B41, #6981 Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.

While there has been a continuous presence of Jews in Israel, their increasing numbers viewed as a restoration began, in the wake of the utter desolation visited upon the land by 1200 years of Islamization.
The restoration of Jews to their land began long before Nathan Birnbaum coined the term "Zionism" as well as before John Darby penned his dispensational eschatology.

In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321:  "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."

That restoration just as prophesied in scripture, and anticipated by great men of God of the Reformation through those prophesies, centuries before that restoration ever began. Even date pinned by Daniel through two cross-confirming mathematical problems that span 2500 years, which may suggest that his book is unsealed, which would put us in what his prophecy describes as the "time of the end".
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 09:20:32 by PeteWaldo »